Talk:Creep shaming/Archive2

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Verbal Abuse

I think it should be mentioned that creep shaming is a form of verbal abuse and that's a reason for men to stay away from those who call them creeps. It seems relevant to the issue of why creep shaming is seen in a negative light by many men.

I don't believe this changes the tone of the article because the original tone was informative and this change does not make it any less informative than it had been. Forces (talk) 15:52, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Maybe creepy men should stop behaving creepily towards other people. They would be far less likely to be called a "creep" at that point. More to your point, calling someone out for creepish behavior is not "verbal abuse." It's telling the truth. If you can document a widespread pattern of the term being used other than as a response to creepy behavior, you might have a chance of getting that edit in. TeenageWasteland (talk) 15:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Being truthful doesn't mean it's not verbal abuse. Calling an overweight person a fatass is verbal abuse even though it is true. Your advice is certainly pertinent, and I suggest that you add your advice to the article. However, that is a separate issue from what is being argued. Forces (talk) 15:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Honestly, your two points in the edit majorly contradicted each other. First you wrote "creep has actually no meaning, so being called a creep means nothing!", but in the other section: "Wah! Being called a creep is verbal abuse!". You can't have it both ways! Either being called a creep just means the persons calling you that doesn't like you, or being called a creep is verbal abuse. It can't be both at once.

More importantly, you miss the point of the concept. It isn't about insult slinging, the same way that slut shaming isn't. It's about stigmatizing certain behaviour. In case of slut shaming that's wrong, because there is no reason to have that behaviour stigmatized. In case of "creep shaming," we do talk about behaviour which definitely should be stigmatized, though. That's why the concept of "creep shaming" is invalid, a pure MRA invention. Octo8 (talk) 16:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Actually, you CAN have it both ways. Telling someone you don't like him/her can very well be done in a verbally abusive manner. Nullahnung (talk) 16:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I didn't say that creep has no meaning, I said it means 'a detestable person'. Being called a detestable person is certainly verbal abuse, so I don't see the contradiction. I don't know what MRA stands for, so please clarify what you mean by it. Forces (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

That's not "creep shaming." That's being mean. Words have meanings. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Calling someone a creep is both creep shaming as I understand it, and being mean. Creep shaming and being mean are not mutually exclusiveForces (talk) 16:12, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

(EC)It is true, what he said, that always saying the truth is needlessly hurtful. However, one could argue that in the case of creepiness as defined in the article (which is "propositioning people one desires sexually persistently or disrespectfully") the target of such creepy behaviour may feel threatened and has a right to call it out so that the sexually loaded propositioning may stop "Please realize that you are being creepy. Please stop being creepy." Nullahnung (talk) 16:05, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Saying that you feel threatened by someone is not verbal abuse. Calling someone names is. There is a fine line between being assertive and abusive. Perhaps this distinction could be made clearer in the article. Calling someone creepy or a creep is clearly name calling, but saying "I feel that you are infringing my personal space" is an assertion of personal rights.Forces (talk) 16:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

When someone feels threatened or their personal space is being invaded they typically don't have the composure to be polite and we should be understanding of that. Nullahnung (talk) 16:17, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I agree that we should be understanding of people who are genuinely frightened. However, calling someone a creep is being aggressive rather than assertive. I feel that aggressive behavior should not be encouraged and we should advocate the use of assertive rather than aggressive methods to defend their personal space. Forces (talk) 16:33, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

White-knighting in defense of creeps. You most be a real hit at parties. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:11, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Using thought-terminating cliches like "white knight" is incredibly lazy and every time I see it I cringe. Next time bother to reason. Nullahnung (talk) 16:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry. "Choosing to argue to defend creeps against being called out for their creepiness is, to me, indicative that you have made poor political choices. You must be a real hit at parties." TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:21, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

EC Calling an overweight person a "fatass" is abusive. Calling an obese person "obese" is a factual description, and relevant in, say, a medical context. In a similar vein, calling someone a "creep" if they have earned it by behaving in a creepy manner, is entirely a factual description, much like calling a racist a "racist." TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:06, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Verbal abuse is the use of words to attack an individual. Certainly calling someone obese in a medical context is not verbal abuse because it does not constitute an attack. However, calling someone a creep in a social situation is almost certainly an attack. Forces (talk) 16:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Not if they're being creepy it ain't. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:30, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

So it's not an attack to call someone an idiot for accidentally spilling coffee on your lap? It amounts to the same thing. Forces (talk) 16:37, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

No. Because that was an accident. It is, however, reasonable to call someone an idiot for, say, making a lame and completely irrelevant comparison between someone having an accident and someone behaving in a creepy manner.TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:39, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

It is possible to behave in a creepy manner unintentionally just as it is possible to spill coffee on someone's lap unintentionally. Forces (talk) 16:42, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You keep telling yourself that, champ. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

People are not always aware of how they come across to others. Forces (talk) 16:45, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ A basic amount of self-awareness is kind of expected of mentally-healthy adults in society. If a guy asks a girl if he can buy her a drink, and she says "no," it is not unreasonable for him to understand that the answer was "no," and that to persist would be to come across as a creep. Because to persist is to be a creep. If you want to argue that men who persist after a first "no" actually lack the self-awareness expected of mentally-healthy adults, you might have a case. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You are taking a very specific instance of creepiness and saying that all creeps have to do this in order to be seen as creepy, which is twisting the facts. The fact is that merely commenting someone on their looks "I like your hair" can be seen as creepy. The man making the perceived creepy behavior is often not aware of how he is coming across and he may think that he is behaving in a perfectly acceptable manner. I stand by my previous statement that creepy behavior is not necessarily intentional. Forces (talk) 16:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Inappropriate comments on an individual's appearance are creepy. You should know that. TeenageWasteland (talk) 16:58, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Who decides what's an appropriate comment? You? I think it's perfectly appropriate for a stranger to tell me that he likes my hair. Some women don't. You can't expect everyone to be the same. Forces (talk) 17:00, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Who decides what's an appropriate comment? You? Weaseloid^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 17:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Can you explain what you mean by junk? Because that was your only explanation for deleting my contribution. Forces (talk) 17:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Didn't you learn this stuff growing up? If Sara, my friend of many years, gets a new bob, I can probably say, "Hey, I like the new do.Looks good." If I am introduced to a woman at a party and within minutes of meeting her I say "you have the most beautiful eyes/hair/figure/etc", I'm probably being a creep. It's pretty basic stuff. TeenageWasteland (talk) 17:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Just because you have more social experience doesn't justify assuming that everyone has equal social experience, or that it's appropriate to abuse those who have less social experience than you. Forces (talk) 17:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You're assuming things about me. The level of my personal social experience is not relevant to my argument about what it means to be a basically self-aware human being. Someone who does not understand how to behave around others needs to take responsibility for their own behavior, and instead of focusing on, as Dan Savage puts it, their hurt fifis, go out and learn how to be a respectful and respectable person in the world. The onus is on the person being a creep, not on the person calling them out for it. TeenageWasteland (talk) 17:17, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The "onus" is on both the creep to stop being a creep and also on the verbal abuser to stop using verbal abuse. "Creepy behavior" - a subjective term in itself - does not justify verbal abuse Forces (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

(EC)Well, first of all it's not just a matter of social experience. There are all too many people out there who think they have some sort of godgiven right to be creeps towards women. Secondly, because that is so, women have to endure creepers all too often in their lives. So, why should they put up with any sort of creepiness? You lament the poor creeps; try looking at it from the other side for a moment. Octo8 (talk) 17:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Firstly people who believe that it is their right to make others feel uncomfortable have attitude problems. Women can file for sexual harassment and the court can deal with these cases individually. However, it is not proper to take issues into your own hands and use verbal abuse as a way of retribution or vengeance against those who have made you uncomfortable. You are authorized to take appropriate measures to protect yourself, and are allowed to use reasonable levels of force, but this depends entirely on the situation and what you perceive as creepy, the court may find is entirely normal behavior. I have never suggested that women put up with creepiness, I have merely suggested that they refrain from verbal abuse and not cross the line from assertiveness to aggression. Forces (talk) 17:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"Forces", you are missing the point. "Creep shaming" is not about directly responding to a particular individual's behaviour by calling him a creep. "Creep shaming" is used to describe any complaints that such behaviour is unacceptable - not complaints to a given individual about their behaviour, but general complaints addressed to the public. The "term" is designed to dismiss such complaints by creating a false analogy with slut-shaming. MRAs will consider shouting "fuck off, creep" at someone covered by the term, but they don't limit it to that. Clear(er) now?--ZooGuard (talk) 17:43, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I have no problems with "Creep shaming" in principle, as I understand it to be "using shame to stop people from acting like creeps", as long as it is not done abusively. I would consider "fuck off, creep" to be verbal abuse, but that is a disagreement with means rather than ends. I only consider verbal abuse to be an inappropriate method of achieving the ends, and that other methods might be better, although my arguments have failed to persuade anyone. Would you agree that saying "fuck off, creep" is verbal abuse? Forces (talk) 17:53, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

No without a clear definition of "verbal abuse" and a list of that definition's implications. Of course, dealing with definitions risks playing the redefinition game.

As for that particular example, I would consider it a perfectly appropriate response in some situations.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

One definition of verbal abuse is "Verbal abuse is the use of words to cause harm to the person being spoken to." from http://definitions.uslegal.com/v/verbal-abuse/ What is your definition of verbal abuse? Does verbal abuse require the intent to cause psychological trauma?

In which situations would you consider the use of "fuck off creep" to be appropriate and not verbal abuse? Forces (talk) 18:15, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Look, Forces. If you can live by the principle "don't be aggressive, be assertive", that you have synthesised here, then good for you, you deserve some respect for that, imo. But don't expect everyone else to do it too. Some people undergo an unfair amount of trauma and if they want to deal with it via aggressive language, then that should be their good right. How about you set an example yourself in your own life and people around you may follow you, instead of preaching here on RationalWiki to a bunch of strangers. Nullahnung (talk) 21:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Forces, you need to stop doing something

Calling someone who behaves like a creep a "creep" is not verbal abuse, and to do so is to cheapen the term and to disrespect people who face actual verbal abuse. As long as your argument is based on this canard, there's nothing you can say that can be taken seriously. TeenageWasteland (talk) 17:44, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Is it verbal abuse to call an autistic person who behaves creepily a creep? You may argue that the example is a bit extreme, but it happens often in reality. http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt167214.html Forces (talk) 17:56, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

The first bunch of posts in that thread: "I haven't been called a creep to my face either" "I don't recall being called a creep to my face" "haven't called a "creep" in my face" "I can't specifically recall being called a creep." To qualify as "verbal abuse," I think someone has to actually, you know, SAY SOMETHING. TeenageWasteland (talk) 18:05, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

You are missing the fact that many members have been called equivalent terms such as "freak", "psychopath", or "evil". Would you agree that being called a freak, a creep, a psychopath or evil is verbal abuse? Forces (talk) 18:07, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

"Freak", "psychopath" and "evil" are not equivalent to "creep" in the meaning that's used in this context.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:14, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

They are equivalent when used with the intent to cause psychological trauma in the same way that "fatass" and "fatso" are equivalent. Forces (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

There is a difference between a taunt by someone who is targeting you or dissmissive of you, and the kind of retaliatory language that includes "fuck off, creep". And because you seem to have diffculty grasping that, the inevitable question: are you on the spectrum?--ZooGuard (talk) 18:24, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I can easily imagine a socially vulnerable guy being made fun of by other people - when he tries to reach out, those people respond with "fuck off creep" because they know that is what hurts him the most. They first pretend to accept him then they reject him with harsh language thus causing maximum psychological trauma. In response to your question, I have not gone for a test so I don't know, to the best of my knowledge I believe that I am not autistic. Forces (talk) 18:31, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What you are describing is a bit of a different usage of "creep" and has been discussed in an above section of this talk page (to sum it up, people who are just socially awkward in general being called creeps are not actually the subject of this article, the subject of this article are assholes who continue to persist in their propositions despite the initial rejection). Nullahnung (talk) 21:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

And I can easily imagine a socially vulnerable girl being repeatedly harassed, unable to retaliate and questioning herself because she's been brought up to avoid confrontation and not respond with "fuck off, creep". And, if she dares to complain or retaliate, being met with a "I am/he is autistic" to make her feel bad about feeling bad in the first place, for maximum psychological trauma. Now what?

Anyway, your hypothetical scenario is irrelevant to the topic of this article, or even to the hypothetical "unintentional creepy behavior" you were defending below.--ZooGuard (talk) 18:46, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

No, I was saying that the socially vulnerable guy is in fact autistic and acts like a creep unintentionally. Also your example of the girl being unable to respond with "fuck off creep" does not make sense because there are other methods of assertion. For example she could say "You are making me feel uncomfortable, please cease and desist in your behavior". Forces (talk) 18:50, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict) The problem is that "call" has multiple possible meanings in different contexts, and it seems that the ambiguity is tripping people in this discussion. What do you mean by "call them a creep"? To their face? Complaining that so-and-so behaves creepily towards you to your friends? Saying that so-and-so "is a creep" to your friends? As a general rule, people who are aware that someone is on the spectrum will probably have that in mind when communicating with that someone. But there's also the fact that people on the spectrum are completely capable of being assholes in the same way neurotypical people are, and being autistic is not a "get-out-of-jail-free card".--ZooGuard (talk) 18:13, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I used the example of autistic people to highlight causes of unintentional creepiness to TeenageWasteland who does not seem to understand that people can unintentionally act like creeps. Forces (talk) 18:18, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

EDIT: Yes, I intended "call them a creep" to mean "call them a creep to their face". As in, "fuck off, creep".Forces (talk) 18:19, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

I retract my previous statement that creep shaming is a form of verbal abuse. I had not understood the concept of creep shaming. Whilst I still object to the use of verbal abuse in creep shaming, I can understand why some think it is not relevant to the article. Forces (talk) 18:48, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

EC -->I know very little about autism and will not make any statements that rely on an understanding of the condition. In the thread above, I argued clearly that I was talking about the behavior of mentally-healthy people. If you can produce actual research--not a chat board, but actual social-scientific research--that says that people with autism are targetted as "creeps," then that is something worth considering. I will point out that you did not mention autism in any of your edits to the article, and so I'm not entirely sure how it's relevant this discussion. TeenageWasteland (talk) 18:51, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

People with autism are not the only ones who are unaware of when they are being creepy. Mentally healthy individuals may also be unaware that they are making someone else uncomfortable. When you make someone uncomfortable unintentionally, would you like them to say to you "fuck off creep" or "you are making me uncomfortable, please stop"?Forces (talk) 18:59, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Mentally-healthy people need to take responsibility for their own behavior. Given the choice between sympathizing with and advocating for the pwerson who is the victim of creepy behavior and the hurt feelings of someone who gets called out for their bullshit in a strong manner, I have to go with the former. The guy being called out should 1. grow a pair; 2. learn to be a man; and 3. conduct himself accordingly in the future.TeenageWasteland (talk) 19:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

That is a false dichotomy. The use of hurtful language is not the ONLY way to make someone aware that they are acting like a creep. The choice is not between whether to make someone aware of their creepiness using hurtful language vs not making them aware at all, the choice is between making them aware of their creepy behavior using hurtful vs non-hurtful language. Forces (talk) 19:09, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Seeing as you withdrew your argument that we are talking about a form of verbal abuse, I guess I don't have to reply to this argument about verbal abuse. TeenageWasteland (talk) 19:35, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

Verbal abuse is basically the same as using hurtful language. But you don't have to reply to this argument, I've decided that advice on avoiding the use of hurtful language doesn't really belong on rationalwiki after all. Let's focus on the bigger picture. Forces (talk) 20:04, 13 April 2014 (UTC)

What you seem to not be understanding is that you're trying to tell women that they should underplay their reaction when they perceive a potential threat. Under that circumstances, complaining that someone's language is inappropriate increases the perceived threat level. In a situation like that, there are precious few ways to deescalate the situation other than walking away to begin with. Complaining about the way someone complains when you should cut your losses and leave could potentially mean that not even leaving will really fix the situation. EVDebs (talk) 14:59, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

There seems to me a troubling assumption that anyone called 'creep' is unambiguously a 'creep', that they have unambiguously over stepped the mark and are 'creepy'. To say that it is justified to brand someone a creep because of a perceived threat does not mean that this perception is accurate or that this is an appropriate response. It is entirely reasonable that either party, the creep or the creeped, might innocently misread the situation or either party may just be arseholes. I am of the opinion that 'creep' is a term of abuse, not an especially egregious one, but abuse none the less. I find much of the debate on this page bizarre in the way it presents a vague term of abuse as a clearly defined academic term, and treating its subjective application as objective fact. AMassiveGay (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The debate on this page is a waste of everyone's time, as is quibbling over the meaning of 'creep' and whether it constitutes verbal abuse. What is defined as creep shaming (mostly by MRAs etc.) doesn't necessary have to involve using the word 'creep' at all, just as slut shaming doesn't always involve using the word 'slut' and queer-bashing doesn't always involve using the word 'queer'. The basic concept of 'creep shaming' is something like: rejecting someone's sexual advances in a way that shames him for making these sexual advances.

Now, whether a guy's sexual advances are inappropriate, and whether the way woman rejects these advances is inappropriate, are things that can only be meaningfully judged in context, depending on what they say or do. However, many (perhaps most) of the situations where "creep shaming" is cited (bearing in mind this whole concept originates in MRA and similar circles) are ones where a man's sexual advances have been presumptuous or even predatory (i.e. creepy) and have been unwelcome. The accusation of creep shaming flips this around, framing the woman as the aggressor and the man as the victim. Tone trolling about 'creep' being verbal abuse serves a similar purpose: deflecting attention away from the man's behaviour & making it all about how the woman reacts. Wëäŝëïöïď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 17:24, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Thinking it through, Forces did appear to not get the central tenet of where the accusation of creep shaming comes from, and thus was doing something like tone trolling, intentionally or not. I think we've wasted a lot of time here, yep. Nullahnung (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

The point here is that people who think "creep shaming" is a thing are trying to rules-lawyer social interactions. It doesn't work like that. EVDebs (talk) 23:10, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Repeating references

This reference is in the article twice: http://www.thefrisky.com/2012-04-11/the-soapbox-why-creep-shaming-is-total-bs/

I think there's a way on Wikipedia to make the same reference get referred to in multiple locations of the article, but I don't know how to do it or if it's possible on RW. Help? Nullahnung (talk) 23:37, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Help:References #Repeating_references Wẽãšẽĩõĩď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 23:43, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Nullahnung (talk) 00:03, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Article should expand viewpoint

It is indisputable that some people called "creeps" and similar are simply socially awkward and don't know etiquette. Those are the people the evil MRAs defend, and the articles exclusion of them implies that they, in reality, have bad intentions. The usage of the word "creep" towards a socially awkward person attempting to reach out is incredibly destructive and I find it unacceptable. The article needs to look past its feminist agenda (don't even deny it) and acknowledge that MRAs might, maybe, just once, have a point. Note that the word, or similar, is never thrown at women. For reference, I'm an egalitarian, and I am not sympathetic to either MRAs or feminists.--23.116.173.152 (talk) 03:57, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

I agree. I'm a white male who doesn't exactly side with either feminists or MRAs. I've been called a creep countless times and every time I hear it I wanna run away and curl up into a ball and die. The fact that society is okay with people being called creeps makes me feel like I don't belong here. Not here as in rationalwiki, it's obvious I shouldn't be here. I mean in society.

When I hear the word creep what goes through my mind is stuff like "I am not ok. I shouldn't be talking to people. I'm a piece of shit and shouldn't be part of society". There's no way for me not to feel those things, and I don't doubt that "sluts" feel a similar way. I already don't have friends, why do you have to make me feel like I'm a disgusting person just because you don't wanna talk to me? Is it really that hard to brush people off politely? If I kept pestering a girl and she didn't know what to do and called me a creep, I guess it's understandable.

I use what little time I spend outside trying as hard as I can to act normal just because I don't want to be thought of as creepy. I actually avoid conversations with girls when possible just because guys don't use those kinds of words as often. Also they will usually tell me why what I'm doing is weird if they do call me something. I don't call people names other than "dick", "cunt", or "asshole". Stuff that doesn't mean anything other than people's junk and people who don't care about other people's feelings.

And no, I actually don't have anything better to do than to comment on a talk page of a random wiki responding to something posted 4 months ago. I'm guessing that's somehow creepy too somehow. --101.182.110.67 (talk) 14:32, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Not saying that the specific use MRAs is using is in any way accurate, but could the article please do more to clarify how this is different from the very real phenomenon of some men often being falsely portrayed as "creeps", or more bluntly, molesters for being merely adjacent to the topic of sexuality? To clarify -- the way MRAs predominantly use the term is clearly flawed, and is meant to silence women for complaining about inappropriate treatment, but the article (and this talk page) seem to both conflate and gloss over an actual, toxic mentality that is itself a symptom of the patriarchy...which undercuts the message of the article itself. Hell, I can attest from experience that you can be treated as a creep and social pariah for being stridently non-adjacent to sexuality (i.e., identifying as asexual and not attempting to flirt with women at all.) Not wanting to step into a whole hornet's nest with the analogy, but while there is absolutely a huge problem with women being forced to interact with people who make them uncomfortable (and this is definitely the more serious issue here), there is also a countercurrent of, well, "false creep accusations" -- and they're much more universal and insidious than their namesake.

More specifically, the article does a shit job of differentiating the two -- the reddit quote (which, if you dive into their post history, is from an anti-MRA, anti-bigotry feminist) that is cited is explicitly in response to a man in no way attempting to flirt or come on to another women in any way whatsoever, but simply being present. By falsely conflating that with "sexual frustration" and "flirting", the article is being extremely dishonest, and totally cutting its argument off at the knees.

There's also the rather disgraceful bit of virgin shaming, which is just...for fuck's sake, you're criticizing men for being inappropriately forward, while simultaneously criticizing them for not trying hard enough? What in the actual fuck, article?204.11.142.106 (talk) 16:45, 7 June 2016 (UTC)

Anything? Should I also mention the disbelief implied with "Another common criticism by men is that there is no equivalent of "creep" that can be applied to a woman", which is...look, this is a documented fact, to the detriment of both men and women. I can point y'all to many a forum for mothers/daughters who are intensely frustrated that the illegal, abusive, and sometimes pedophilic antics of older female relatives get nary a glance from the authorities because of patronizing sexism.

Also, is there any way at all that the article can base itself around someone other than Wakeman, who is just...Jesus Christ, a terrible pretender to being feminist. She's condemned male victims of abuse and tried to defend female abusers, for Christ's sake, she's the living embodiment of the caricature the right tries to paint the feminist movement as, to the point of severe Poe's Law. I understand if she's involved with the history of the term that needs to be recorded, but can we have a bit less, I guess, uncritical regurgitation of her? She's the opposite of a reliable voice for feminism.52.119.105.14 (talk) 17:26, 27 July 2017 (UTC)

Article's definition of "creepiness" and how it's defined.

Is completely at odds with what actual academic studies have concluded. Especially the "The term 'creep' describes effectively when someone has overstepped someone else's boundaries and may make it hard to avoid reflecting on the impact of this behavior" nonsense claim.

Yes, it's extremely convenient to redefine a commonly used slur with a long and documented history of being used against social undesirables as "we're just talking about people who do this [outrageously awfully bad thing that it is social kryptonite to even try to disprove you even did]". It's like accusing a romantic rival of having STDs -- it doesn't matter if they have a clean bill of health, the fact they even have to refute the accusation is going to torpedo a lot of social relationships, not even just romantic ones. So the guy who got called a creep for liking ravens, or the lady who got called a creep for liking taxidermy, is understandably peeved at people going around trying to say that the original stupid insult against them was actually a very valid accusation of being a sexual predator.

It doesn't help, either, that the article relies on quotes from actual defenders of domestic abuse, someone whose own article complains about, essentially, being "mean, crazy, bitch-shamed", correctly pointing out that "The problem is when they’re used as catch-all terms, as potshots that are just supposed to hurt because they are dismissive. It’s a default setting for you not have to deal with what a lady has communicated — whatever that might be." For crap's sake, find a more reliable source to hang this whole article on.

The citation to the goodmenproject already on the page even goes into the fact that a lot of the drama behind "creepshaming" and "anticreepshaming" is because it is a very othering snarl word, but instead of acknowledging that, the article treats as universal that "creep" means only this one thing, that people being accused of creeps definitely did that one thing, and that they only object because they want to get away with continuing to do that one thing.

Which is bullshit. And the fact that it's bullshit is pretty much the entirety of the drama. The majority of people being called "creep" have nothing to do with anything sexual or have even actually done anything in the first place, and this attempt to imply that by being called a creep they've been credibly accused of being a sexual predator is (for obvious reasons) the reason people get upset at the accusation. Yeah, there's some actual predators upset at being called predators, but they are by far the minority of the people upset at being accused of sexual impropriety by the attempted redefinition of the insult, and it's silly to pretend otherwise.50.194.115.156 (talk) 14:14, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

The article also directly contradicts itself, first defining being a creep as being some form of sexual predator, and then claiming "These misogynists also appear to believe that a woman trying to avoid a man she considers a possible threat is worse than the prospect of a guy not being able to pursue a woman."

Come freaking on. Even by the article's own definition, being publicly labeled a sexual predator is a lightyear away from just "not being able to pursue a woman", and that the article keeps insisting it's a male-only insult, even claiming a Quora citation to "Another common criticism by men is that there is no equivalent of "creep" that can be applied to a woman." when that article explicitly says the opposite.50.194.115.156 (talk) 14:25, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

(e/c) 50.194.115.156 claims their definition of creepiness is what multiple studies say, but the reference is to one study published in the minor (albeit peer-reviewed) journal New Ideas in Psychology, which itself disputes previous widespread notions of what constitutes creepiness. So what is the scientific consensus, if there is any? My guess is there is not much widely agreed that is relevant. --Annanoon (talk) 14:46, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

BON, did you even bother to Google and find the abstract of this study (or even read what you linked)? Sexual threats are a big part of the "creepiness" motif even in the *summary* of the article. I see nothing wrong with the entry (particularly since it concerns the typical socially clueless manosphere twist on these sort of things.) Soundwave106 (talk) 16:03, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

@50.194.115.156 Interesting. So do you think flirting with someone after they've expressed disinterest is creepy? How about groping someone? What about getting someone wasted then trying to fuck them? Any of that creepy in your books? I'd really like to get an idea of where you draw the line on social interactions. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 19:17, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Y'all can quit your whining about ableism and "creep shaming," I put that disclaimer in the article. — Oxyaena ^Harass 19:32, 9 December 2019 (UTC)

It is wholly unsurprising, and completely illustrative of my point, that GC chose to respond by insinuating baseless sexual impropriety against me.

Soundwave, you've entirely missed the point of both my post and the abstract you seem to think I didn't read, which is that people are being called "creeps" without actually doing anything sexual at all, whether or not it's perceived that way. Examples given were liking taxidermy or ravens. The problem is that the article, as written, validates the accuracy of the accusation of sexual impropriety, and does not acknowledge that hey, maybe having tattoos doesn't have anything to do with sexual perversion, etc., and that it's actually very common for people to throw around completely baseless accusations of sexual "deviation" at someone just for meeting societal norms -- have y'all heard of this new fun term being thrown everywhere, "groomer"?

Pretty disappointed that no one actually responded to my points, and not going to hold my breath for another three years before y'all realize you're just perpetuating toxic masculinity.165.225.63.53 (talk) 17:36, 6 September 2022 (UTC)