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Talk:Creep shaming/Archive1

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What[edit]

Is this article saying only misogynists think it's a shame to be a creep? --83.84.137.22 (talk) 16:03, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

I do not like this article. I think it should go away. ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRlavishly loquacious 16:06, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
A confusing, unlikeable, sourceless stub? ORF WITH ITS 'EAD! --TheLateGatsby (talk) 16:13, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't get it either. Scarlet A.pnggnosticModerator 16:16, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Alright, delete. --83.84.137.22 (talk) 16:18, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't mind it, even though it smacks of MRA. The recent WIGO:Blog about erection werewolves paints some relevance on the subject. -- Seth Peck (talk) 17:06, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
I think an article regarding that myth (that men are uncontrollable creeps) is a better topic than 'creep shaming' - such a thing would be a side effect of that broader phenomenon.±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRcritical thinking is the key to success! 17:44, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

The mission is feeble in this one. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:16, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

  • Keep and expand. This is a hot-topic in the feminist & MRA parts of the blogosphere of late, largely kicked off by this blog post by Jessica Wakeman in which a commenter used the phrase, and Wakeman's follow-up blog which explored the concept. Other bloggers have picked up on the issue.examples: [1][2] It fits in with a lot of the issues we cover (feminism, MRA, rape culture, perceived discrimination, privilege, etc.) & I think it fits in with the missions. €₳$£ΘĪÐWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 19:22, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Clarification, please... it may fit with unwritten parts of the mission, but the only fitting things I see in the explicit statement on the main page are "crank," which seems like a stretch, and "authoritarianism and fundamentalism," which I see as even more of a stretch. If we are to continue covering issues such as feminism, MRA, rape culture, perceived discrimination, privilege, etc., then perhaps some adjustment to the mission statement is in order. There. I went two whole sentences without saying "mission creep." Oops, Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 19:32, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
No, this is very much on-mission as MRAs are pretty much universally cranks. Essentially, anti-feminism is woo; rampant strawmanning is a big part of it, which is what the MRA usage of the term is. EVDebs (talk) 22:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
  • Keep. The term is sufficiently well-known among feminist skeptics that it needs an article. EVDebs (talk) 22:25, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
If it is kept, it needs to be redone. I read it four times and I'm still not sure what its trying to say. --Revolverman (talk) 00:21, 31 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, you do have to be familiar with the overall context that the term comes from, and realize that the term is not the most logical thing MRAs have ever come up with. Basically the construction and context of the term is meant to imply that women aren't supposed to talk shit about guys who are assholes to them. It's entitled NiceGuyism used as a philosophical debating point. EVDebs (talk) 04:14, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Okay, sources were added and there's been some clean-up, so I withdraw my deletion tag.--TheLateGatsby (talk) 04:18, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Still Not Good Enough[edit]

I'm sorry, but this really needs actual statistics and studies. The question is not "Do women ever creep-shame" because they do [example]. The question is "How often does it happen?". And it's simply not rational to say "Hardly ever, but I have no way of proving it". Also, the unsourced "People who say this tend to be bitter, lonely misogynists" seems more like guesswork than a supported fact, but I suppose it's less of a problem due to the relative newness and obscurity of the whole thing. 86.46.36.65 (talk) 20:40, 9 September 2012 (UTC)

See, i gotta say, bon, i'm not convinced "creep shaming" even exists. WE call you a creep cause you're a creep. not because it's the worst blow we can think or, or cause we are telling our feminist sisters to avoid you or anything. That is to say "one woman's creep is another woman's hero".--Green mowse.pngGodotBe informed. Vote. 21:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)
By "you" I presume you mean "them", and not actually me. Right? Because your pronoun mix-up turns an innocent comment into an unwarranted insult. 86.46.36.65 (talk) 09:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
If you think about it, the entire concept is nonsensical to begin with. If a woman tells someone that he's a creep, it means she wants him to go away. It doesn't really matter whether she sincerely thinks he's creepy or not -- she just wants him gone. It's a sign of profound assholism to ascribe any sort of ulterior motive to that; arguing the point only makes the creep look creepier. EVDebs (talk) 03:19, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
It's a little difficult to tell from a short clip, but he kinda does come off as... a creep. Frankly, whoever came up with the title for that video has the dynamic between Demi, Britney, and this guy completely backwards. EVDebs (talk) 03:07, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Who cares? X Factor judges are mean & insulting to contestants (both male & female); that's part of the show's whole shtick. If you think that's the most sexist thing that's ever been said on X Factor, you're way off. WēāŝēīōīďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 12:32, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Again, I don't really know the whole context. But I have to think Britney Spears of all people would have more experience dealing with creepers than most, so if she says someone's creepy, I'm going to take her word for it. EVDebs (talk) 22:59, 10 September 2012 (UTC)
Relevant. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:42, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

This article: Poe's law? 85.5.25.165 (talk) 17:31, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting allegation. Care to elaborate? EVDebs (talk) 20:40, 25 October 2012 (UTC)
Troll Theory of Practice Still tryin' to figure it all out. 20:42, 25 October 2012 (UTC)

This article is loaded with ad hominem attack.[edit]

This article is loaded with ad hominem attack.

If you can't discuss the topic without making these ad hominem attacks and name calling, maybe the article isn't really as fit for the rational wiki as you may like to believe.

Maybe you aren't as rational as you would like to claim. — Unsigned, by: 98.177.196.183 / talk / contribs

Cool story bro EVDebs (talk) 02:07, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
Everyone is stealing my lines. --Revolverman (talk) 04:57, 13 November 2012 (UTC)
"But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! Blue Talk 05:53, 13 November 2012 (UTC)


"Romantic creeps" vs "sexual creeps"[edit]

Something I feel this article needs to point out is that "creep" is not necessarily sexual. For example, being a person with OCD and BPD, when I fall in love with a woman, I tend to become a little bit obsessive (though I do try not to), and therefore, even if it isn't my dick talking, I tend to be labelled a creep, which, although true, is not really the same type of "creep" as mentioned in this article. I think that it should be brought up that there are Dolan.png creeps and then there are self-pitying, socially retarded, obsessive sods like me. Messiah of Doom ( For me, thou shalt fall) 12:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)

Ya, that would pertain to the term 'creep', but not so much to the term 'creep shaming' as (supposedly) frequently used by mentioned men's rights activists. Sooo, don't need to put all the extra meanings of 'creep' in there, imo. Nullahnung (talk) 12:46, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Still, I do feel that is a bit unfair lumping the two together. Messiah of Doom ( For me, thou shalt fall) 21:36, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
There is no lumping together in the article as far as I know. In fact, in my opinion, the article doesn't deal with the term "creep" at all. It deals with the term "creep shaming", which is a completely different term than "creep" and possesses a completely different context. All of this discussion about just the term "creep" is completely irrelevant. Nullahnung (talk) 03:36, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Why? If your behaviour makes women uncomfortable enough to comment on it, what difference does it make whether you regard that behaviour as "romantic" rather than sexual? Isn't this just classic "nice guy" syndrome? ЩєазєюіδWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:32, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Doesn't having 'nice guy syndrome' mean you feel a sense of entitlement? As in, "I think I'm totally nice to you, therefore you are not allowed to criticize me and you must give me what I want!" So no, that's not in fact what's going on here, if you read OP carefully. Nullahnung (talk) 10:01, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
I feel this is a recycling of the 'rapist in the bushes' delusion. "I have these ~issues~ but they totally AREN'T the cartoonish crazy people who can't control their penises, ~my~ issues with women are different than that stereotype so it's a different ~kind~ of more ~legitimate~ creepiness that should be protected!" News flash, every single creepy guy thinks he is nothing like other creepy guys. There's no 'sexual creepiness' vs. 'romantic creepiness.' Women react to creepiness in caution response to possible molestation or rape threat, as conditioned by social realities. Realities supported by tons of data suggesting that women experience high risks of both sexual harassment and assault- especially from people they happen to know, rather than strangers. Getting creepy with someone you work with or know loosely? Yeah, you're threat #1. There's no difference. ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRjust shut up already 22:38, 15 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, I think you are committing the same mistake that Messiah of Doom is committing. You are somehow setting the term "creep" within the same context as the term "creep shaming", even though they are totally different and this article is only about the latter.
You might not realize it, Knight (nice name!), but the term "creep" is rather liberally applied these days among youths (used by both male and female). Typically you are at risk of being called a creep just because you sit in a corner every day looking at passers-by. Ridiculous, but true. (No, it hasn't happened to me, but I've been around such people.)
As for romantic creeps... it is no great jump to imagine someone sending a love letter and then getting called a creep because he looks unwashed.
However, this article focuses on MRA types who use the term "creep shaming", so all of this discussion about the term "creep" is actually completely irrelevant. Nullahnung (talk) 03:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
No, I think it's you who is making a mistake here. Yes, somebody can be labelled a "creep" just for being unwashed or socially awkward, and no, that's not what the article's about, but it's not what the above comments are about either. Messiah of Doom introduced the subject of being called a creep specifically in the context of obsessive behaviour toward women he falls in love with. That's exactly what this article, and the whole concept of "creep shaming", is about. The distinction he seems to be making is between lovesick romantic creeps who are obsessed with somebody and (presumably) sleazy pick-up artist creeps who just want to get laid. My point is that - while there are some differences of psychology, motivation and attitude between these two models - the net result in outward behaviour & especially how the woman reacts to it is probably about the same: unwelcome attention that isn't reciprocated, makes her feel awkward, uncomfortable or even intimidated. WèàšèìòìďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 07:31, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough, you're probably right. Nullahnung (talk) 09:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
(EC) I realize to some people this may be a touchy subject, but I suffer from moderate to severe social anxiety disorder as well as moderate OCD, and I get along fine with the majority of men and women I meet. I realize that having certain personality disorders can be a significant hindrance to social interactions, and I fully admit that social activity is much more difficult and exhausting for me than it is for many of my friends. However, I have yet to be called a creep, and I have friends and acquaintances spanning all walks of life. It takes an awful lot of extra work to get there, but I believe that the onus is on each individual to moderate his or her behaviour accordingly. - GrantC (talk) 22:39, 15 September 2013
Damn it, knew I shouldn't have commented. Look, I understand that there are similarities, and that I'm a fucking psychopath, but, as Weaseloid says, the difference is between "pick up artist" guys, and then there's fuckers like me. There's the kind of guys who go to clubs or dances or whatever and try to get women to fuck them, which I'm pretty sure is the kind in this article, whereas I've never even had a conversation longer than 5 words with a girl that I've been infatuated with. And I'm sure you'll all be pleased to know that, yes, I am in the process of getting help. Messiah of Doom ( For me, thou shalt fall) 08:23, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
[trolling] 101.165.71.7 (talk) 08:59, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
101.165.71.7 is probably a troll. Please ignore. Nullahnung (talk) 09:02, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Ok. He/she is kind of right in some parts, though. Messiah of Doom- Unite with thy Oracle 09:21, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Okay, everyone. I just realised how much of a tool I am, and have been, and I would like to apologise to everybody who I've intimidated or offended. Sorry. Messiah of Doom- Unite with thy Oracle 09:48, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Oh stop it with the self-deprecation. There's no need to apologize, you haven't offended anyone (apart from that one IP, but that troll doesn't deserve any attention...). Nullahnung (talk) 10:11, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Perhaps there should be a separate article about "creeps" rather than just "creep shaming". Also, I've never actually been called a creep by someone else. Just putting it out there. Messiah of Doom- Unite with thy Oracle 10:14, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Well, then stop labeling yourself as a creep! Nullahnung (talk) 10:25, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

can someone please clarify?[edit]

I am not entirely sure what a 'creep' actually is, beyond someone vaguely unpleasant for some reason AMassiveGay (talk) 10:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)

Do you know what "creepy" is? You can pretty much call anyone a creep who creeps you out. Nullahnung (talk) 10:26, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
that doesn't really clarify anything. It is entirely nebulous. Plenty things 'creep me out' or make me uncomfortable without actually being creepy. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:32, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
It's difficult because the term is so subjective. What is the threshold of "creeps me out" at which point I should call someone a creep? That's really for everybody to decide for him-/herself.
Here's a definition from thefreedictionary: "(Slang) An annoyingly unpleasant or repulsive person." Pretty vague, right? Generally you can safely call someone a creep if creeping you out is a main feature of that person. Nullahnung (talk) 10:39, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
the term is a meaningless insult then. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
Basically, in this circumstance, it means somebody whose desires, whether sexual, romantic or platonic, make a woman feel uncomfortable, such as the kind of guys who use bad pick-up lines on a woman in a club who is obviously not interested. Messiah of Doom- Unite with thy Oracle 11:33, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
the subjectivity of that still makes the word worthless AMassiveGay (talk) 16:00, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
No it doesn't. "Creep" is a term that only has meaning in context. Messiah's definition misses the point that what makes someone a creep is situational; it also requires a lack of respect and/or awareness of personal boundaries. Creepiness is what causes someone else to be afraid of you; what makes someone a creep is that they either don't realize this, or don't care. And yes, from a certain point of view, it's subjective, but that doesn't excuse you from trying to avoid being one. EVDebs (talk) 23:13, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
And yet still no clarity on what creepiness or what a creep is. I have heard the terms used to describe sexist, misogynist behaviour, to describe someone sucking up to the boss, to describe general dickishness, and to describe people who just appear odd and socially excluded. As far as I can see it little more than a vague or subjective insult that slightly more polite than calling someone a prick. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:35, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
I just find it bizarre that creep and creepiness are being discussed like they are valid and accepted academic terms with clear and universally accepted definitions. It reminds of of conversations I've had on whether it is better to called a prick or cunt AMassiveGay (talk) 23:45, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
You want it spelled out? A creep is someone who does not respect someone else's personal boundaries and either does not know they're doing it or does not care. That's as straightforward a definition as you're going to find of the term. EVDebs (talk) 23:51, 16 September 2013 (UTC)
my point is that it is one definition of many and it is still little more than a vague term of abuse flung at people no matter how justified you feel in throwing it. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:01, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Pray tell under what circumstances someone might be called a creep when they are not acting creepy, and how often would it happen? EVDebs (talk) 00:04, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
the vast majority of Timex I heard someone called a creep in real life is some one sucking up to someone. Slightly less frequently, used go describe someone thought of as weird. The suck up one is quite common, often said jokingly. AMassiveGay (talk) 00:13, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Neither one really deviates from the definition I gave above. Saying it as a joke, well, that's not to be taken terribly seriously. But if someone is being weird, that kinda does fall under the umbrella of "violating social boundaries", inasmuch as they're behaving in a way that is seen as abnormal and possibly threatening. The circumstance I anticipated was if someone was trying to pull a con on someone, but that's clearly an abuse of the term and isn't especially common. EVDebs (talk) 00:42, 17 September 2013 (UTC)
Since, as it has been pointed out, the meaning of creep is subjective/not clear, does anyone else think it would be a good idea to have a seperate section, or even article, regarding the definition of creep? Why Weepest Thou? (talk) 12:27, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
you might as well have an article on what an arsehole is, if we had an article on what a creep is AMassiveGay (talk) 13:09, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
We do.(talk to) [æn əˈmɛɹɪkən ˈnaiːɪlɪst] 21:39, 21 October 2013 (UTC)
Fair enough, but (in my opinion) even a separate section in the article would be helpful. Why Weepest Thou? (talk) 06:23, 22 October 2013 (UTC)

Not convinced that this doesn't exist[edit]

I've been called a creep by a girl who had been my friend for a year prior, right after admitting that I had a crush on her. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 10:20, 3 March 2014 (UTC)

Well, you see, I think this article doesn't necessarily refer to personal instances where the word "creep" is used- certainly, it is often used in cases where it wouldn't really apply, such as yours. I think the article is talking about how MRAs sometimes tend to think that "creepy" behaviour is okay. That said, I personally don't think that it is any more necessary to call somebody a creep than it is to call somebody a bitch. I would personally prefer it if instead of just saying "you're a creep", people could say "Your behaviour makes me uncomfortable because…"- just insulting somebody only serves to upset them, without them understanding why what they were doing was wrong- as seen with the MRAs, or even my own posts on the page from when I first joined the wiki. Anyway, TL;DR- you're not a creep. That wasn't "creep-shaming" as this article refers to it. People should be nice. MESSIAH OF DOOM Impurity is the secret Dolan.png 04:06, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
The wheres, whens, and hows of your telling the woman in question about your feelings for her could easily have played into her seeing it as a moment of creepiness, as could her understandings of the nature of your relationship at the time. TeenageWasteland (talk) 04:23, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
That's actually a good point. Did she say why she found you creepy, or did she just go "Fuck off, creep"? In what context was it- the "when"s "where"s and "how"s? You see, here's the thing. If she just went outright and called you a creep without explanation, all that does is hurt your feelerings, without actually helping anybody do anything. I'm not saying that "creep-shaming", in the MRA sense, exists, or that creepy behaviour is fine- I'm just saying that being mean about it and not saying "don't do X because…" is not the best way to handle it. MESSIAH OF DOOM Deserved doom shall be unto you Dolan.png 04:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
At the time, no, she didn't. I later read her blog and found that she had said some very hurtful things about me, although I don't remember the details (this was years ago). As for the situation: it was high school, the last day of the school year, and I had liked her for a long time, but didn't think it would ever work out between us, so I never made a move. But she was graduating soon, and I didn't want to never see her again without ever admitting how I felt, so I told her that I had a crush on her. I thought of it as a mild, non-threatening thing, because (I thought) it was obvious I didn't expect her to reciprocate, given the circumstances. I just didn't also expect her to lash out at me like that.
I don't know how MRAs behave in real life. I do know that if it's anything remotely like how they behave online, then yes, it is creepy. But the fact that many MRAs are genuine creeps does not mean that creep shaming doesn't actually exist. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:24, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Oh, and I want to reiterate: I didn't say "I've always been madly in love with you!" or anything like that, which while not actually creepy as I understand the term, is certainly overwhelming, and would make a negative reaction understandable. I simply said "I have a crush on you." Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:26, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
A lot of people don't deal well with being told about a crush directly, I imagine. It is generally smart not to mention that openly until a few dates afterwards, and maybe it will be guessed at inbetween. Of course the difficult part is actually getting a date. Nullahnung (talk) 09:45, 4 March 2014 (UTC)
Again: it might make someone a little uncomfortable, sure, but not worth blogging, long after the fact, about how horrible someone is. At least in my opinion. But it doesn't matter. I've all but given up on romance anyway. I don't want to whine too much about that, lest this conversation end up too familiar. Wehpudicabok [話] [変] [留] 09:54, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Relation with Slut Shaming[edit]

I think the true relation is that:

a good male prospect isn't supposed to to be denied it's right to reproduce (or express his sexuality), unlike a "creep" who fails despite his effort.

Being " slaved of their genitalia" doesn't imply the women's rejection.

The word "creep" might work at the same level of "slut" because they hurt the core of gender interaction, and at the same time tells us, what the opposite sex despise the more in its partner. men despise rejection/women availability. or they just show us what they prize Men approval/ Women exclusivity. — Unsigned, by: 190.154.104.9 / talk / contribs 14:35, 5 March 2014 (UTC)