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Talk:Jordan Peterson

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Article updates[edit]

I've written an entry that is a full replacement of the Jordan B. Peterson article, while keeping a tiny selection of the original references and lightly treating some of the same subjects that were being referred to. My version is written and attempts to keep in-line with the RationalWiki:Mission. It provides numerous new references to articles in news, magazine, academic archives, etc. There are forward references and backward references, that is examples of people citing Peterson, and examples of Peterson citing others. The improved edition is here: User:Morgan9218/Jordan_B._Peterson. I have revised some of my own wording from a previous edition of this, and was advised by User:David_Gerard to use the Talk page first. So. heyo! here it is. Morgan9218 (talk) 05:28, 15 September 2017 (UTC)

Le WhiteWash. CR (talk) 16:26, 27 September 2017 (UTC)
Yes. We prefer bullshit & feathers. Criticize the guy, sure, but stupid criticism? e.g., "he misuses Jung...to support his whole Christian spiel." His use of Jung is consistent with Jung's writings as far as I can tell. Ariel31459 (talk) 13:57, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Jordan Peterson, marriage fan[edit]

Marriage rape cannot happen:

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/929155800450285569 and https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/929213180848381952

Marriage prevents sexual harassment:

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/928981541849522176

Marriage is a spiritual transition:

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/817819497243574274

Marriage is worth shackling oneself to:

https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/923317457011425281

FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 04:09, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

@Fuzzy: How did you get "Marriage rape cannot happen" out of that? I hate twitter links.Ariel31459 (talk) 15:09, 12 November 2017 (UTC)
@Ariel Added the other tweet -- missed one link. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 23:10, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I'd like to explain why I took down the marriage section. First, the section is almost entirely written based off Peterson's tweets, which I would argue is not a rigorous enough source to accurately describe and infer (RationalWiki-style inferences) various aspects of his beliefs. Twitter's character limit is exceptionally low for proper articulation of one's ideas. Perhaps if the section was based on sources of Peterson discussing at length his views on marriage, then I would have likely not reverted it, regardless of whether or not I feel Peterson's particular opinion on marriage is worth having an entire section for on RationalWiki, considering Peterson has expressed many opinions about many things.

If you'd still argue that the tweets were specific enough to justify what was written for this section, then I have some disagreements. For example, it was written "Apparently Peterson has never Googled "rape in feudal Europe". Fittingly, Peterson has lovely views on consent in marriage:" and then displays Peterson's tweet "With all the accusations of sex assault emerging (eg Louis CK) we are going to soon remember why sex was traditionally enshrined in marriage...". The tweet itself did not imply anything on his views on marital rape/consent; if Louis' accusation involved marital rape, then I would understand how the tweet can be associated with marital rape. However, Louis' accusation involved inviting 5 women home and he got naked and started masturbating in front of them. That is not at all implicative of marital rape. To be fair, I have no clue why Peterson highlighted Louis' case in his tweet, but I can see that consent within marriage is not an implied theme.

What was written regarding the Youtube video of Peterson discussing marriage is a little more suited for a RationalWiki description although I don't agree with the edit line "This leads into worrying implications in terms of divorce", but using the video as a source for a description is more acceptable. Overall, I took the section down because of it's predominant source Twitter to describe it and I don't think his views on marriage are among priority for creating an entirely new section for the wiki page. Bill C16, reactionaries, and postmodernism are worthy contenders for sections, but not marriage, especially not twitter exchanges regarding it. --Moobnert (talk) 21:27, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

The article needs more rationality and less stupidity[edit]

Someone is constantly abusing this article for spreading their own subjective stupidity i.e. personal agenda and opinion without any reference (both information and categories) about Peterson which does not belong on RationalWiki. Reading this Wikipedia for years, yet in recent period it is really becoming to hit a rot bottom.--78.0.122.110 (talk) 12:58, 17 November 2017 (UTC)

RW:SPOV. a ƽøȼɪаլ յμʃтɪȼε шаѓѓɪøӷ @ 14:17, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
@78.0.122.110 Feel free to provide some constructive criticism. It's hard to address concerns like this unless you say specifically what you have a problem with and why. CowHouse (talk) 15:03, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
@CowHouse being someone who is very rational and supposedly this Wikipedia was meant to promote rationality, unfortunately, it started to become Uncyclopedia. It is ridiculous and pathetic that certain things must be explained to "rational" editors:
"He also seems fairly egotistical, and there's a high level of intellectual poverty on his YouTube channel: he misuses Carl Jung and Friedrich Nietzsche's respective works to prop up his whole Christian spiel, even though Jung was an agnostic-leaning occultist, and you'd be hard-pressed to find someone in that time period (or ever) who hated religion more than Nietzsche. Peterson must know this, but his fan base doesn't, so they treat him as some sort of philosopher king." - some "rational" editor who is obviously egotistical himself, plays as a psychologist, and think he knows better to the point he decides to ridicule a Ph.D. professor and psychologist who worked in Harvard University, who has over 35 years in research, with scientific methods, that is "egotistical" has "intellectual poverty" and "misuses Carl Jung and Friedrich Nietzsche"? Are you joking, it has nothing to do with the scientific or snarky point of view.
"Cult leaders...Batshit crazy...Insufferable assholes...Internet kooks...Transphobia" - Peterson is not a cult leader, there is nothing crazy about him, he is not an asshole, a kook, or transphobic. It is unbelievable according to which criteria and argument he is categorized as such. Did I miss something all these years or RationalWiki has become a playground of the so-called SJW lunatics who go around placing posters in which Peterson is criticized exactly for opposite he is fighting or made research?
"Given that his objections to C-16 resonate with many people, including transphobic individuals, it is unsurprising that many of his fans are reactionaries. Such fans like and support Peterson for his opposition stance to the bill but also due to his view of IQ being a huge determiner of cognitive ability[9] (which the "race realist" reactionaries love to cite), his views on the psychological differences between men and women[10] (which the sexist reactionaries all love), sympathetic views towards conservative values,[11] being hugely anti-Marxist[12][13] (because it's not like any other system has caused mass death at all[14]) and for defending Christianity.[15][16][17]" - The references are misused or other are ignored for claims they do not support. Suddenly on RationalWiki is ridiculed influence of IQ or obvious biological differences between men and women and are deemed as somehow "racist" and "sexist", but since when RationalWiki became a platform of bullshit political correctness and identity politics?; conservative values although due to religion or traditionalism rather than political ideology as he does not identify and could not be considered as a conservative; as if being anti-Marxist he never stated anything against other totalitarian systems which is ridiculous because of the amount of his research on the topic as well often and deliberate criticism of Hitler and Nazism.
"He treats postmodernism as a serious problem facing academia. Peterson generally misrepresents postmodernism and misconstrues it to be a corrupting force rather than just a branch of philosophy. Despite being a "free speech advocate", Peterson seems confident enough that postmodernism is a threat to make a website targeting University of Toronto professors who teach "corrupted disciplines".[41] He's also repeatedly called for these programs to be ended, "the sooner the better."[42] Predictably, his cult-like, "free speech warrior" followers online have absolutely no problem with this." - How on RationalWiki can be defended postmodernism and its influence in academia, a philosophical ideology criticize rational thinking and support irrationality, which negates the existence of universal truth as it propagates multiple grand narratives, which resulted to the widespread identity politics and various bullshit studies which do not promote any kind of scientific thinking or methods? Instead, to be applauded for his idea that the academia should not be a "safe" and "identity" space with the indoctrination of ideological and irrational thinking, he is criticized and his "followers" are deemed as "cult-like". This is a total nonsense which has nothing to do with rationality. It is evidence that editors who edited or reverted this information ([1]) or 1) are not familiar enough with the topic, or 2) are editing with ideological agenda, or 3) are not rational enough themselves to the point they have no place at RationalWiki. It is a disgrace which offends common sense. --78.0.122.110 (talk) 16:44, 17 November 2017 (UTC)
I'd just like to inform you that we are a wiki, not "a Wikipedia." Wikipedia is a wiki and the start of the wiki craze, but it's not a generic term. a ƽøȼɪаլ յμʃтɪȼε шаѓѓɪøӷ @ 00:51, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
It has nothing to do with discussion nor the fact I use the term in such a way and context.--78.0.118.239 (talk) 08:18, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
So your response to this article is a poorly-written, unsourced, 5 paragraph long "NO U"? I get the feeling you're not very good at this... ;) 68.145.132.165 (talk) 18:16, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
"But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink! (((Cat A. Lonia))) (talk) 09:52, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Not a valid argument for another breach of stupidity.--78.0.112.185 (talk) 11:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

Edit War Thread[edit]

@Kazitor,@Nerd,@Cat A. Lonia Please discuss changes here. That IP is also welcome to discuss. Now if you'll excuse me, I'm off to do research for the Tulsi Gabbard rewrite. RoninMacbeth (talk) 17:14, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

(Edited) I'm not the one who locked the page or engaged in edit war. I only read and utilized the source @Cat A. Lonia provided in the lead section. Nerd (talk) 17:19, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
True, but you were one of the people contributing to the article around the time of protection. What's your take on the contributions? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:04, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Protection was me; the BoN kept removing a substantial portion of the article that seemed, to me, to be properly referenced and accurate. The BoN has stated several times that their removal of information is with regards to the talk page, but in the above thread I see no consensus reached over whether any material should be removed. —Kazitor, pending 20:35, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
@RoninMacbeth I thought it was a bit much so I reworked the material to make sure what we say is supported by the source provided. Nerd (talk) 01:28, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

/r/JordanPeterson is unhappy[edit]

But their responses have all the critical meat of a skeleton. Fuzzy "Cat" Potato, Jr. (talk/stalk) 23:04, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

Not relevant to the content of the article, nor Jordan Peterson made a comment, so your title "Jordan Peterson is unhappy" make your response to have "all the critical meat of a skeleton".--89.172.140.63 (talk) 11:03, 28 November 2017 (UTC)

Rename?[edit]

Proposition: Rename to "Jordan Peterson".

Evidence for: https://trends.google.com/trends/explore?q=jordan%20peterson,jordan%20b%20peterson,jordan%20brent%20peterson,jb%20peterson ("Jordan Peterson" >>> more searches than "Jordan B. Peterson")

Evidence against: https://www.google.com/search?q=jordan+peterson&pws=0 (at least we're in the top 20)

Thoughts? Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 23:14, 27 November 2017 (UTC)

I vote yay. GrammarCommie (talk) 23:30, 27 November 2017 (UTC)
Yes.--RationalP (talk) 04:46, 29 November 2017 (UTC)

Umberto Eco quote[edit]

Feel free to point out any exceptions, but aren't quotes featured on articles concerning living people usually by, or directed at, the person in the article? I don't believe the Umberto Eco quote is particularly relevant since it was not directed at Peterson. CowHouse (talk) 15:39, 4 December 2017 (UTC)

I agree. It might be worked into the text of the article with some reference to the academic reaction to Peterson's criticisms. "Ur-fascism" is not a commonly understood term. In fact, "fascism" is often misunderstood: George Orwell said that “as used, the word ‘Fascism’ is almost entirely meaningless.” He is not wrong.Ariel31459 (talk) 15:55, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Similarly to what Mike Godwin has said, fascism is meaningless when used to describe whatever the speaker dislikes. It is not meaningless when used to describe people who make lists of "SJW professors" to be targeted for harassment by alt-right trolls, no matter how many fans on Reddit think otherwise. To compare Peterson to Chomsky is ridiculous. It's one thing to be skeptical of postmodernism, an entirely different thing to use postmodernism as a dog whistle for various right-wing conspiracy theories started by Hitler and dating back to the modernist era. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 16:11, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
It's also worth noting that George Orwell fought the Francoist regime and was perfectly OK with calling them fascists. Their opinions match those of Mussolini in exactly the same way that Peterson's does. It's very unfortunate that his words are appropriated so often by modern-day fascists. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 16:13, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Nobody compared Peterson to Chomsky. Both men are highly critical of postmodernism in academia. That doesn't make them alike. Please do not revert facts because they conflict with your ideology.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:22, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
Someone did compare Peterson to Chomsky by literally referencing Chomsky in a Peterson article. However, nobody reverted edits because the edits conflicted with an ideology; I reverted the edits because the comparison being made was invalid. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 16:25, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
No I'm afraid you are wrong. When person A criticizes X, and person B criticizes X, this implies that both A and B are critics of X. It implies nothing definite about their respective criticisms or compares A and B beyond the fact that they are critics of X. Also, Peterson proposed a website, he did not create one.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:35, 4 December 2017 (UTC)
If putting Chomsky in the article isn't meant to compare him to Peterson then he is irrelevant to the article and I rightly removed him. The article is about Peterson, not Chomsky. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Not only he is wrong, yet it is more than obvious that RationalWiki recently became infected by user accounts who do not have nor care about rationality, yet want to use this Wiki for their own identity politics, or spread of postmodernistic ideology, which was heavily criticized by Noam Chomsky, Richard Dawkins ([2]), Steven Pinker ("...our Enlightenment ideals. Those ideals, “products of human reason,” hinge on—well, reason, and science, the latter the “refining of reason to understand the world.” Against these are what Pinker characterizes as manifestations of delusional thinking, including religious faith and the “hermeneutic parsing of sacred texts,” the “suffocating political correctness” on campus, the “disaster of postmodernism” that has devastated humanistic thought, and the “identity-protective cognition” that has made political discourse so soul-killing..." or "Diagnoses of the malaise of the humanities rightly point to anti-intellectual trends in our culture and to the commercialization of our universities. But an honest appraisal would have to acknowledge that some of the damage is self-inflicted. The humanities have yet to recover from the disaster of postmodernism, with its defiant obscurantism, dogmatic relativism, and suffocating political correctness...") among others, yet here we are with ideological sock editors who write that such people, like Peterson, are perhaps "intimidated by postmodernist theories, possibly by finding them to be incomprehensible" (because they are most stupid irrational pseudo-intellectual garbage), or could be labelled as "Fascists". The whole section is a mess of cherry-picking (and lies for e.g. the reason Peterson put the controversial website on hiatus) in defense of postmodern bullshit. --RationalP (talk) 09:28, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Consider thisAriel31459 (talk) 14:51, 12 December 2017 (UTC)
Lmfao. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
RationalP why not meet me in the gay bar? Davide Piffer sexy italian man in a thong (talk) 09:54, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Admins should use a checkuser (if can), because someone's obviously making a bunch of sock accounts related to Davide Piffer.--RationalP (talk) 10:06, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Very few of us actually have the ability to use checkuser, and those who do only use it in very extreme cases where it's absolutely required. This is not one of those cases. ΛίνΡ (ομιλία) (συνεισφορές) @ 14:51, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Misogyny in opening[edit]

If we want to allege that, we have to do more than 1 reference to 1 article. We need quotes -- we need to show his misogyny, not just tell readers that he's misogynist. The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 00:35, 5 December 2017 (UTC)

After a quick search through the interwebs I found a grand total of zero misogynistic quotes from this guy, plenty of quotes implying racism and transphobia, but no misogyny. GrammarCommie (talk) 01:00, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
The article referenced made his misogyny explicit; I don't even know what is debatable here. He said he's powerless against female insanity. What on Earth is that if not misogyny? It's absurd you would even claim he isn't. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 15:23, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
It literally quotes him saying women are crazy. It's not someone else saying they think he might be a misogynist. It's him explicitly saying "Women are insane." Cat A. Lonia (talk) 15:24, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
@Cat A. Lonia In the article you cited, he does not equate being a woman with being crazy (Peterson concludes that “sane women” should “stand up against their crazy sisters.”) All the article proves is that he thinks there are crazy women, not that all women are crazy. This is flimsy evidence of misogyny. The "women are insane" (mis)quote you mentioned is nowhere in the article. CowHouse (talk) 15:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Seems like he's devoting an unreasonable amount of time singling out "crazy women" for someone who's not a misogynist. Why doesn't he just say "crazy people" if he's not deliberately equating femininity with insanity? His nonsense about not being able to physically fight them is inexcusable within an academic context; it is also an implicit threat of violence. There is a reason he's going on a rant about female insanity. It's not because he thinks they're just as crazy as men; it's because he believes there is something explicitly, uniquely crazy about femininity. That's misogynist. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
He's not equating femininity with insanity since he acknowledges that there are both crazy women and sane women.
So when he points out that there is no implicit threat of violence, you interpret that as an implicit threat of violence? You seem to be interpreting his statements in the least charitable way possible. If someone talks about "crazy men" I don't automatically assume they think men are all crazy. The same assumption of good faith should be applied to Peterson's statement about women. Besides, he didn't say "crazy people" because he is specifically talking about the difference between talking to men and women that he believes are crazy.
He may very well be a misogynist, but you need much better evidence. CowHouse (talk) 16:40, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Please explain what quotes you've found imply racism and transphobia? --Moobnert (talk) 22:28, 5 December 2017 (UTC)
Ideological people see and live in a fantastic reality where such quotes exist i.e. make them seem so according to their postmodern indoctrination.--RationalP (talk) 09:46, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
My reality is pretty fantastic, I'll give you that. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 15:25, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Okily dokily, time to put the research part of my education to good use. The following represents December 2017 so far, and I believe it shows a bit of a pattern.
Claiming people are inadequate next to a patriarchal dead white man (his language): https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/940754665259585536
Dog whistling for the MRAs: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/940671360212393984
Kinda hard to link to tweets he retweets, since that's less proven, but he's retweeted James Damore tweeting about the GoogleMemo. https://twitter.com/JamesADamore/status/933075513375186944
He also retweeted this little piece about how school and academia are biased against males: https://twitter.com/DMillardHaskell/status/938505287077715969
Tweeting out a story about how the real gender gap in academia is biased against men: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/939976272578572288
Apparently the #MeToo campaign is a Warlock Hunt that is actually bad for women: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/939849144381796352
Even his fans noted the sarcasm in how he worded this tweet linking to an article claiming that all these #MeToo women are just wanting to be victims: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/938781162914439168
Not all men: https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/938538911965392897
A little hard to describe this one, but he implies that colleges will put people to death in the name of diversity if they criticize people protesting pro-choice groups. https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/938526717727080448
Gender diversity is a bad thing. https://twitter.com/jordanbpeterson/status/937904640997208064
-User:PsychoGecko 7:38 AM, 14 December 2017 (UTC)

Lindsay Shepherd censure section[edit]

Is this worth featuring in its full length? Our other sections are on his broad-scale views and activities -- this one is awfully specific. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 06:21, 7 December 2017 (UTC)

Given its more detailed nature versus the broader position of the article in it's current state I would say yes. GrammarCommie (talk) 16:02, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie You used the wrong "it's/its". Normally I wouldn't point that out, but your username is "GrammarCommie" after all. CowHouse (talk) 16:43, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
Fixed it, though at least I didn't fall victim to Muphry's Law. GrammarCommie (talk) 17:41, 7 December 2017 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie "Given its more detailed nature versus the broader position of the article in it's current state I would say yes." CowHouse (talk) 03:02, 8 December 2017 (UTC)