Talk:Karl Marx

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The latest edit war[edit]

This edit appears to be quite contentious in the eyes of User:Oxyaena. I'm personally in favor of letting it stand, if only because I don't see what's wrong with it and it would be a show of good faith towards User:Godless Raven if we don't allow Oxyaena to revert all of their edits (and Oxyaena does appear to have a certain fondness for reverting this user's edits).--"Shut up, Brx." 04:40, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

They're a poisoning the well necrophile troll pos who's permabanned from the ratwiki discord and so many other places. β€” Oxyaena Harass 04:46, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Assuming what you say is true, that's hardly grounds to revert all of his edits--"Shut up, Brx." 04:47, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
What Brx said. This is a pointless edit war, Oxy. It doesn't matter where s/he was banned previously. Let it go. AceModerator 04:56, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
What does the phrase "Marxist dogmas" contribute to the article anyway? If edits are to be preserved in good faith, then they still should be actual meaningful edits. The point is still conveyed if you say "was not a Marxist."-Flandres (talk) 04:57, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
You see what Flandres has done here, Oxy? Discussed the edit rather than you who did as follows: revert, revert, and then fucking promoting the user. AceModerator 05:00, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
I would gather that "Marxist dogmas" is meant to be a broader term than simply Marxist. And didn't Marx himself say at some point that he didn't identify as a Marxist? I could swear I've read that somewhere (though I wouldn't be surprised if it had been taken out of context). Anyways, the root of this issue isn't so much the edit's merits, it's more Oxyaena's following Godless Raven around. Maybe a mod action is required? Give Oxyaena a warning to back off this particular user altogether?--"Shut up, Brx." 05:04, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, Brx, Marx himself didn't deny that he built a cult of personality he rejected: Source Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 05:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Apologies, but should any personal dispute between users really be discussed on this page specifically?-Flandres (talk) 05:09, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Probably not - I was just pointing out that this was the proper way to discuss an edit war. AceModerator 05:11, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Please explain to them why Raven is undesirable for this wiki. β€” Oxyaena Harass 05:19, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
For the neutral actors in this conversation, you can read my contributions to this wiki (I listed the major edits here) and decide whether a dissenting opinion is welcome or not. Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 05:23, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
At risk of lighting a fire, should we be referring to Marx's followers as being a "cult"? They're exceptionally dogmatic, yes, but do they match the definition of a cult? When looking at this particular example of measuring whether or not something is a cult, from at least a cursory measurement I would say that Marxism itself doesn't meet the definition of one. Individual subgroups that branched off from his thoughts, yes, for sure (a modern day example of culty behavior that branches from his thoughts is easily spottable in groups like Chapo Trap House, which meet these standards much more), but I wouldn't say that Marxism inherently should be called a cult. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 09:49, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Yes, because even Marx rejected them Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 09:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
"with whom he had disagreements because the latter was a social democrat and not a Marxist fanatic" Marx disliked Ferdinand Lassalle because he was not a marxist fanatic but Marx disliked Marxist fanatics. This is not coherent to me. FΓ©inlΓ©iriΓΊ (talk) 12:29, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Marx was kind of an asshat, but I find it hard to believe he was the leader of a cult. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 13:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
GC, have you read anything that I posted? Source Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 13:53, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Zero mentions of the word "cult" or any derivatives. Personally I like the latest edit. It gets straight to the point without an aside. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:15, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
Why would Marx be angry that Lassalle was not a Marxist fanatic when Marx doesn't like his own fanatics according to you? It makes no sense to leave this line in with given you say he disliked fanatics @Godless Raven. FΓ©inlΓ©iriΓΊ (talk) 16:51, 7 June 2020 (UTC)
That's a fair point. I concede. Godless Raven 🌹 Heretic 16:55, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Removed quote[edit]

What is the worldly religion of the Jew? Huckstering.
What is his worldly God? Money.
Money is the jealous god of Israel, in face of which no other god may exist.
Money degrades all the gods of man – and turns them into commodities….
The bill of exchange is the real god of the Jew.

This quote by Marx (referenced) is not quote mining, as @Oxyaena alleges (and that's the reason she removed it; however, there was no vote on this nor was it controversial; the last controversy about this was a month ago about a totally different section). Marx literally agrees with Bauer's anti-semitic tropes, as demonstrated here:

Bauer has posed the question of Jewish emancipation in a new form, after giving a critical analysis of the previous formulations and solutions of the question. What, he asks, is the nature of the Jew who is to be emancipated and of the Christian state that is to emancipate him? He replies by a critique of the Jewish religion, he analyzes the religious opposition between Judaism and Christianity, he elucidates the essence of the Christian state – and he does all this audaciously, trenchantly, wittily, and with profundity, in a style of writing that is as precise as it is pithy and vigorous.

β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 10:39, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Addendum: The reason (edit summary): "removing shit-stirring that was already voted on to be deleted". There was 1) no vote on it and 2) there is no shit-stirring either. This section (Marx and Judaism) exists since at least 2013. The only thing I did was to add a literal quote of Marx instead of just letting the description of his opinion stand. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 10:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
the section you added the quote mentions the quote several times anyway. It's not imo out of context. β€” Z 11:21, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜

We ask the converse question: Does the standpoint of political emancipation give the right to demand from the Jew the abolition of Judaism and from man the abolition of religion? β€”Marx
The political emancipation of the Jew, the Christian, and, in general, of religious man, is the emancipation of the state from Judaism, from Christianity, from religion in general. In its own form, in the manner characteristic of its nature, the state as a state emancipates itself from religion by emancipating itself from the state religion – that is to say, by the state as a state not professing any religion, but, on the contrary, asserting itself as a state. The political emancipation from religion is not a religious emancipation that has been carried through to completion and is free from contradiction, because political emancipation is not a form of human emancipation which has been carried through to completion and is free from contradictions. β€”Marx, again, arguing against abolishing Judaism

β€” Oxyaena Harass 14:41, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

I also direct everyone to this essay. β€” Oxyaena Harass 14:49, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
the essay which says that marx wrote stuff that may be antisemitic, islamophobic, and anti-Catholic but says its up to the reader to decide. Yes that definitely seems to reinforce my point and not really yours. β€” Z 14:58, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
I say leave the quote. Fits in with SPOV as well as the Marx/Judaism section--Hastur! (talk) 18:12, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
How is being anticlerical now considered bigoted? @Hastur What does that quote contribute to the article, beyond pointless snark? β€” Oxyaena Harass 08:04, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
It's not pointless snark. It is quite literally a quote by Marx within the topic. The section has existed since at least 2013, mind you. You alleged that 1) it caused shit-stirring (it didn't) and you removed it based on a nonexistent vote, which is why Crow reverted your edit. If you want to remove it, provide arguments. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 08:15, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
It's a literal quote mine that ignores important context, Marx was making fun of Bauer. β€” Oxyaena Harass 10:18, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜To be clear, the section at dispute isn't "Marx and Judaism" in general, it's just the cquote (so it didn't exist since 2013). I was originally gonna say that I didn't care about the matter itself, but after reading the reference, my conclusion is that the quote is accurate and should stay. The segment seems to be broken up into two parts. The first part is deconstructing Bruno BauerWikipedia, no dispute there. The second part seems however not so much aimed at deconstructing Bauer, but rather is Marx soapboxing his own ideology over Bauers stuff. The second part is considered to be under enough dispute for Wikipedia to have a section about it (On the Jewish QuestionWikipedia, scroll to controversy), so there's at least that. Marx's conclusion in the second part I would definetly characterize as antisemetic, considering Marx reaches the conclusion that "The social emancipation of the Jew is the emancipation of society from Judaism." (very last sentence of the source). There's a lot more in this source that really points to Marx having some amount of internalized antisemitism. My conclusion as a result is that this quote should stay as is. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 11:57, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

"It's a literal quote mine that ignores important context, Marx was making fun of Bauer."[What is this? Please elaborate.]
Anyway, I am considering that since me, Crow, Z and Hastur are of the same opinion that the quote should stay, I suppose that's enough of a mob to have decided this. Obviously Oxy is allowed to question and bring forth arguments that this is quotemining. So far, Oxy blindly took someone's word for it that Marx was "making fun of" anti-semitism, when there is no evidence as such, with Marx even saying he agrees with Bauer's anti-semitic tropes. Oxy, if you want you can expand the section itself (not removing the quote) by adding an alternative viewpoint that allegedly Marx was just memeing. If you do this, use actual evidence, not assertions. Thank you. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 13:42, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Hastur[edit]

@Hastur The quote about Lassalle was racist (n-word use) and anti-semitic; but I think it deserved its own section. With regards to the Category:Racists, if he is in Category:Anti-semite, why not in the racist one too? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 13:55, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not inclined to make excuses for using the n-word but extrapolating from that alone that he is a racist comes off as agenda-based. And I'll argue that if we do want to say that Marx was a racist, I think we need more than just a single instance of him calling a white Jewish man the n-word--Hastur! (talk) 14:32, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
What about this? https://books.google.ch/books?id=FH-LCwAAQBAJ&pg=PT208&lpg=PT208&dq=I+do+not+trust+any+Russian.+As+soon+as+a+Russian+worms+his+way+in,+all+hell+breaks+loose.&source=bl&ots=mR1RfXqLqs&sig=ACfU3U1FGNu-dhds0z-NW75raMtyITBiAw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjeqs7zpf_qAhXGThUIHRZ4A6oQ6AEwAXoECAkQAQ#v=onepage&q=I%20do%20not%20trust%20any%20Russian.%20As%20soon%20as%20a%20Russian%20worms%20his%20way%20in%2C%20all%20hell%20breaks%20loose.&f=false @Hastur

I do not trust any Russian. As soon as a Russian worms his way in, all hell breaks loose.

β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 15:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Well, for one, that's stretching the definition of racism. At that point we're calling him a racist first and then looking for evidence second--Hastur! (talk) 15:04, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
And this? https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/13569317.2019.1548094 β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 15:16, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
That's better. Far better than the original argument.--Hastur! (talk) 16:02, 3 August 2020 (UTC)
Restore the original version @Oxyaena. Again, if you want it gone, as Crow told you, do it on the talk page. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 00:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
it must be a trivially easy thing to find instances of an old timey geezer doing old timey racism. what i am not seeing is the significance. the quotes are given context free. there is no indication of how they tie into his life, how it may influenced his works - if at all, if his views evolved over time for better or worse. but there isnt anything. the whole section is more quote than anything else, with the accompanying text being less than helpful. the standard caveat 'a man of his time' is given but nothing more is given to show if that being the case what makes his racism notable or even especially egregious for any other reason than you really want to call him a racist, which you do - 'racist karl', and refer to one example given as 'malignant' to stress how awful his racism was. racism is general is malignant, it isnt necessary to under line that we think its a bad thing, its a given. here its over stating a very weak case. there is no context and its simply not enough to shit out a few quotes and think thats job done.
to be fair, as a lack of context goes, the whole article is lacking. it seems less about marx and more about marxists, making the racism section look even more like an exercise in point scoring in some other internet debate.
i mean what is this article trying to achieve? at best its got the wrong title. as it is, there is little point in edit warring and debating the dubious merits of marx and racism when its inclusion or removal from the article is essentially about adding or removing a little piece of dog shit from the larger pile of dogshit AMassiveGay (talk) 07:36, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

Template:Verygood

β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 07:47, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
AMG, if you were to actually read the last article he cited, specifically this one, you'd find that the evidence definitely points to Marx and Engels having been racists--Hastur! (talk) 09:53, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
i just read it, or the abstract at least, and does appear to provide the context and perspective into marx and racism. do you know whats striking about that article though? that it is not reflected in our article or even appears to be cited. and it would need to be more than just referenced, it would need the relevant points summarised to explain why the racism is significant. its currently just pointing at some quotes 'look he did a racism'. it just looks like a lazy smear as it is. its even worded in such away when referencing engels that it looks like he disagreed with marxs racism 'in opposition to engels, racist karl was...' when hes apparantly just as bad as marx was.
also, its still polishing a turd. the whole article is a bag of shit. a page on karl marx and it says about marx himself is that he was racist. and thats done poorlyAMassiveGay (talk) 11:25, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ @AMassiveGay While I don't disagree with the concept of that we should have a higher bar of racism for historic figures being significant enough to mention (since well, it's piss easy to find racist stuff on any historic person), with Marx here specifically, I feel that this bar has been cleared. Compare and contrast it with for example, H.P. Lovecraft, who we clearly do mention being a racist. Why? Because his racism is relevant to his legacy into the present day (his writings had a lot of "Lovecraft-only" horror compared to "actually scary horror" in them, by which I mean things that were only scary to Lovecrafts mind). That is in my eyes the bar that we to some extent should clear. To go back to a previous drama, where the discussion was on whether or not to call MLK a homophobe, the ultimate conclusion reached was that MLKs possible internalized homophobia didn't pertain to his legacy as a whole, and as a result it didn't bear mention on his article. With Marx on the other hand, we're seeing a somewhat recent surge in lefty types (leftypol/dirtbaggers/Chapo fans, pick your genuine poison as to what you'll call them, also these types existed before, see Jacobin Magazine as well) who reference Marx' ideas a lot and tend to try to frame everything into the perspective that Marx' worldview was right no matter what, and this sometimes gets used to reduce things like racism as just "a class struggle". (We saw this with the Floyd protests, where a lot of these types ended up escalating protests into violence into areas that kinda were completely irrelevant to the protests, which resulted in a poorly justified agressive response against the peaceful protestors.)

In that light, if people are willing to consistently reframe everything as being into the specific worldview that is by all accounts Marx' legacy, then we shouldn't sugarcoat the fact that Marx's writings have a good amount of anti-semitism and racism in them, and in doing so that they're also agreeing to that part of his writings. (And I also should add the fact that when confronted about the racism in his works, a lot of them tend to make a poor defense of Marx himself, rather than admit that there's some sections of Marx's writings that can be dismissed as they're racist/anti-semetic, which brings it's relevancy for our mission into dissecting crank ideas and beliefs.) Basically, on it's own saying that you think Marx's theory of communism might have some amount of value isn't negative in and of itself -that's debatable-, but putting Marx on a pedestal is where the issues start to arise, and there's a good segment of them that does that.

As far as the rest goes, the cheap shots like saying racist Karl seem like lazy snark to me, and I don't see any issue in removing that stuff, but that is worthy of a simple cleanup, not of a full wipe of the segment. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 11:39, 4 August 2020 (UTC)

i have no objections to discussion of the mans racism if it is significant to his works and legacy. it seems that it is. my issue is the racism section does not look at any of that. it does not provide necessary context for that. its currently a few quotes with no comment to explain their significance. im not advocating wiping the segment, im saying we need more than pointing at a few quotes and tut tutting. especially when it is clear there is a lot more to add.
that said, why bother right now? its polishing turd as the other segments are just as risible. im not even sure what this page is trying to achieve. why is the focus. i can maybe see what it was going for but it does it so poorly im not sure. its like its a response to an argument someone might have had on some forum somewhere. we can fix the racism segment but how does it fit with the rest of an article where none of its parts fit together. AMassiveGay (talk) 13:13, 4 August 2020 (UTC)
Feel free to add to the other parts of the article I guess, saying that working on articles which are bad is bad seems pointless because that's how they become good. β€” Z 06:14, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
i would think people who know more of karl marx would be better placed to fix it, but fine. leave it as it is. i guess you are happy with this embarrassment of an article. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:06, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
How about you fix it yourself, properly, @AMassiveGay? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 12:58, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
@The Crow Most of the actual violence was done by the police, which you'd know if you were actually on the ground at the protests. Most of the protests were peaceful, but the pigs didn't care. I know someone who had their arms up while also peacefully protesting while unarmed and they still got shot with riot munitions. β€” Oxyaena Harass 06:33, 5 August 2020 (UTC)
This is unrelated to the talk page. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 06:46, 5 August 2020 (UTC)


Can we talk about goddless raven being a lying piece of shit?[edit]

Holy shit just fuck you guy. One only needs to read the following paragraphs to determine that Marx was actively refuting Baurer's central point. Given that, your insistence otherwise means were actively lying. It's one thing to dislike communism, which has a mixed history at best, it's another to lie your ass off in order to include a quote of someone Marx was refuting as if its his own words. You need to go the fuck away. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Which quote, exactly?--Hastur! (talk) 15:06, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
The second one at the top of this section. It's, in context, clearly a precursor to refuting the central point. Reading for comprehension clearly shows that he's directly disagreeing with bauer's points, basically all of them, whatever praise he has for prose. His central thesis comes later.
β€œβ€Incompatibility between religion and the rights of man is to such a degree absent from the concept of the rights of man that, on the contrary, a man’s right to be religious, in any way he chooses, to practise his own particular religion, is expressly included among the rights of man. The privilege of faith is a universal right of man.
And given his insistence that the quote is "in context" can only be understood to be purposeful dishonesty. I.e. lying. Which ends any seriousness I take anything he says. Period. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:23, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Alright, but if you read this, you will find that there is a great deal more background to the accusations that Marx is a racist--Hastur! (talk) 15:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@Ikanreed if you think the quote is out of context add that extra context, don't nuke an entire section which has many other parts to it over your feelings. Wtf. β€” Z 15:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie you too. β€” Z 15:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
You know, I'm fairly sure that if this section is correct, then Hastur will be able to easily demonstrate it. Are you as sure as I am? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Can we talk about why the quote about Jewish N-words was removed?[edit]

So, where is the lie? Did Karl Marx call Lassalle a "Jewish n-word"? Yes/No? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 15:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Hint: Yes he did. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 15:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't particularly care if you also told the truth while lying. Someone who didn't lie their ass off can remake the section. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 15:47, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
So you admit that you removed a section that is accurate only because you dislike the person who wrote the section? β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 15:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Frankly that quote isn't as good as you think it is, Raven. Granted, he said the n-word, but he was using it as a pejorative rather than as a racial slur. There's far more evidence of his racism elsewhere--Hastur! (talk) 15:54, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
very based hastur. pewdiepie only said the n-word as an exclamative, not a pejorative! β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 16:03, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
It's not quite so simple. For one, pewdiepie, as I understand it, says the n-word a LOT. Secondly, on it's own it doesn't indicate very much. And whatever else I said on Discord--Hastur! (talk) 16:06, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
So did Marx! "As he [Tremaux] indicates, (he was in Africa a long time) the common Negro type is only a degeneration of a much higher one." - Marx. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 16:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
Look, Raven, we know that you're incapable of learning, but one guy being racist in the 19th century isn't remarkable, you might as well put up a section on racism for every person we have an article on who lived in the 19th century. β€” Oxyaena Harass 18:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜I don't care about the rest of your slapfight, but please stop edit warring over the section. GR didn't add parts of the section (multiple people did and some parts are iirc as old as 2013), it existed before he started adding to it. Nuking the entire thing is excessive and isn't contributing to much of anything. Discuss nuking parts of it and make arguments in favor of nuking parts of it and come to a fucking conclusion over it. Page locked for a few days and restored to pre-deletion status (I think) so you guys can hash it out. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 20:57, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

what is the purpose of this article?[edit]

i'm bringing this up again, because i am yet to get a satisfactory response. its easy to say 'you can edit the article yourself if you dont like it' but its an asinine suggestion when in my view it is not a few minor fixes needed but complete deletion and then rebuilt from the ground up with a more structured and coherent whole. so no. i cannot 'fix it myself'. i cannot even tell what we want from this article because its current form gives me no indication.

i can break down its current form to further explain.

1 What Marx did and didn't do there is lots here that he didnt do. very little of what he did do, and then nothing of relevance. we are not told of what he did do later on in the article, there is the one line intro above the contents to tell us the two works hes most known for, but thats it. i can understanding dispelling popular misconceptions, but this are just trivialities.

2 Marx and Judaism there is nothing here. states hes of jewish descent, baptised a lutheran, and wrote a maybe antisemitc/maybe satire. the biq quote starting this section would suggest we are leaning to antisemetic, but theres nothing here fleshing out the context or the extent of this. section opens talking of conspiracy theorists tie marxism to international jewish conspiracy, and thats it?

3 Marx and communist states this is just the old who killed the most - capitalists or communists numbers game. always crass and poorly addressed here. there is commentary on where marx expected the proles to rise up, but its pretty superficial at best and it not clear what point is being made. and who exactly are fanboys?

3.1 A frequent argument by Marxists they are not real communists, oh yes they are and no they are not' panto debate. not fond of this particular quarrel. its more nuanced than usual i guess, but still framed in as a they are or they are not binary. taking theory to put into practice means adapting to the challenges of where its being tried. where takes or has taken countries dosnt mean they are not real marxists. doesnt mean they are all the same either. context.

4 Marx and... Sci-fi? describing a fundamental flaw of communism imho as end goal. here a little inaccurate in parts, and could be better put.

5 Marx's racism see above for what i think here. too much quote and too little valid commentry

6 Marx's influence today 6.1 The good 6.2 The bad 6.3 The Ugly this is all dross.

7 Marx versus Marxists more dross.

in short there is nothing here that gives a sense of of who marx is and his place in the world. nothing on his works. what there is seems like a response to some internet debate, with or between marxists but nothing really connecting it to marx that would better placed in the article on marxism. as would anything on the failings of marxism, especially when there is nothing on marxism itself here. no one part, aside from what i thnk of each individual part, follows the other.

i would suggest reformatting with a short bio, explain what he is known for, as wel as his fundamental beliefs and some brief commentry - more indepth would be better placed in the marxism page. then we can look at his legacy from the soviet union, through the cold war, to china and the world today and beyond. racism and his judaism would go here as would conspiracy theories.

i cant fix none of that without instant reverts and accusations of edit warring for even minor edits, and this would require a consensus for such an overhaul.

feel free to disagree, i'm not trying to score points here. but if you do disagree, if you think its fine more or less as is, then tell me - what is the purpose of this article? and does it serve this purpose AMassiveGay (talk) 16:41, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Let's see what the mission says.
  1. Analyzing and refuting pseudoscience and the anti-science movement;
  2. Documenting the full range of crank ideas;
  3. Explorations of authoritarianism and fundamentalism;
  4. Analysis and criticism of how these subjects are handled in the media.

There is space for 1. "pseudo-science" ("scientific socialism" while not being at all scientific); there is space for 2. "crank ideas" (such as LTV, Marxian "economics", "historical materialism" as pseudo-history, the unfalsifiable claims he made, etc.); there is also space for 3. "authoritarianism and fundamentalism" e.g. the autocratic and genocidal regimes he inspired and the cult of marx/marxism. I would argue 4. too but there is already enough material for it to be missional. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 16:47, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, or at least mostly agree, with AMGs assessment hence why I have not been active on this talkpage even though I have watched this petty dispute unfold. I use the phrase "petty dispute" because even before GR got his hands on it this article this article was badly designed, a battleground for people of differing ideological tendencies to score points against one another via edit disputes. Allow me to preempt claims of purposeless complaining by offering a solution-we delete this article and interested users can make a alternative one in their draft space. A vote can be held to determine which version is the best and thus get to replace this article in main space.-Flandres (talk) 16:51, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
How is Marxian economics pseudoscientific? There's also no "cult" of Marx, anymore than there's a "cult" of Adam Smith. Also the LTV is a crank idea? Do you even know what the LTV is? Marx's application of the LTV is flawed, yes, imo Carson does a far better job with applying it than Marx does/did, but that doesn't necessarily make it a crank idea. β€” Oxyaena Harass 17:04, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
This article needs work, that much I can agree. But not deletion. It is also missional. Also, interesting to see the usual suspects appear. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 17:07, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I don't think AMG is worried about missionality here. Rather, if this article is to serve a purpose beyond exemplar of poor writing and shoddy design, what does it need to do / contain that isn't already adequately covered in communism, socialism, Das Kapital, and the Communist Manifesto? Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 17:10, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
You mean like yourself? β€” Oxyaena Harass 17:12, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Another argument for deletion and taking this topic to draftspace-unless the people making their own drafts explicitly say everybody is free to edit them these petty edit disputes, largely proxies for personal vendettas, will cease, or at least decrescendo in intensity.-Flandres (talk) 17:29, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
I'd agree with @Flandres and @AMassiveGay, though I would like to point out several problems with thinking critically I've observed in Marxist circles as well. However, I'd honestly prefer if the article went into more meat than "Soviets did bad things" and "A man from 1800s Europe was a bigot", as these are quite petty points that don't really address the actual flaws (and there are flaws) in Marxist thought. In short, I'd say either let AMG re-write the article or take Flandres' suggestion and start from scratch. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:54, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, I want to see more substance here. What was the exact relationship between Marx's ideas and the horror show states that popped up? That being said, I think the article topic is significant enough that I would oppose outright deleting it or moving it off to draftspace. Maybe put up the WiP template. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:15, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Given how AMG is the one making the claims of issue here primarily, I would recommend he well... goes and fixes it? Like we're an open project. One can complain all they like, but the nice thing is that we can always take up the tools and edit the page ourselves. If his edits turn out to be shit, guess what? We can change those too. I... don't see the point of bickering about it. We have a template for WIP articles that are to be taken as under construction so we can always slap one of those on them (I think Duce is doing that with his patching up of our country pages). Frankly, I don't take a lot of issue with the page as is however and I don't care a lot for vocal grandstanding to fix it when it's clear that the person who is grandstanding seems perfectly capable of editing the issues with the page to begin with. As is, I would say that while the writing may be a little subpar/made to be a counter in an internet debate, it's by no means poorly enough written to move it to draftspace or to get rid of it outright. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 19:11, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@The Crow To quote AMG anticipating your style of response, " its easy to say 'you can edit the article yourself if you dont like it' but its an asinine suggestion when in my view it is not a few minor fixes needed but complete deletion and then rebuilt from the ground up with a more structured and coherent whole. so no. i cannot 'fix it myself'. i cannot even tell what we want from this article because its current form gives me no indication. ". Which to suggests that they are not in fact grandstanding, but feel like no one is listening. So, responding with "Well you can just do it yourself" doesn't really address this, instead it sort of just proves the original poster right. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:02, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
The problem is that AMGs breakdown of the article doesn't prove to me that the "article needs to be deleted and rebuilt from the ground up". I can see flaws with the structure of the article, but I don't see anything that makes it go to the point where we ought to throw out the entire thing as crap. Yeah there's a few structural issues, but that doesn't mean we throw out the baby with the bath water so to speak. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 20:32, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
What's the ideal RW article on Karl Marx? Name, country of origin, birth/death we can agree on, I'm sure. Maybe some bits about his personal history, like how he ended up in England. Best to keep that brief, though. Follow it up with a summary of his views (which would include racism and anti-semitism, I suppose), and some rebuttals to his views that are obviously incorrect (such as the labor theory of value). Then under "see also" we'd slap whatever ideologies he ended up inspiring or are similar to his. Sound good?--Hastur! (talk) 20:57, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
@Hastur If I may, I'd like to suggest we actually go into the unsound assumptions within Marx's work, which would require some rather heavy reading for those who aren't already familiar with the most relevant pieces of his work. Das Kapital, volumes 1-3, the Communist manifesto, and Critique of the Gotha Program. I propose these so that we can steelman the topic, and then get down to the task of refuting the ideas therein. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:11, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Why this is absurd[edit]

This page has existed since 2009. And only now, in the year of Our Lord, 2020, that I took some time to edit it, people want it gone? Really? If that is the case, yeah, fucking delete it then. That's my suggestion. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:00, 6 August 2020 (UTC)

Not everything is about you on a personal level. Sometimes, people forget things exist, or they just learn about them, or they think one minor point is one too many, etc. And grandstanding about the matter and taking it personally doesn't really help improve things. Just food for thought. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:05, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
It's not necessarily that they want it gone (and bear in mind that "they" in this case is like two or three people so far), but rather that they think it ought to be fundamentally different than what it is now--Hastur! (talk) 20:21, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
That being said, I can understand that frustration and sense of futility that is expressed here. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 20:56, 6 August 2020 (UTC)
Really we should listen to the people calling for deletion and clear the wiki of pages like Adolf Hitler and Donald Trump since they are poorly written and redundant to our page on Fascism. β€” Z 01:53, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
That assumes all those pages are as equally badly designed, which they are not. The Hitler one could be redundant but is also well made. The Trump article could probably use some clean up but with so much up in the air now is probably not the time. The Marx page is not just redundant(if it is at all), it is badly made. Like GR, you really do have trouble understanding the true positions of those who disagree with you,hmhmhm...-Flandres (talk) 02:04, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
I love how all the good faith explanations I put out for consideration were promptly ignored, and bad faith assumptions were posited roughly two hours later. Really proving that you're nuanced and thoughtful, and not just sectarian and petty. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 02:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
You better stop attacking her, @Flandres. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 02:44, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Attacking her how? By rebutting her?-Flandres (talk) 02:47, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Stay on track. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 02:48, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
If you insist. Ze is straw manning the argument presented by Amassivegay and others, as if they are saying we should delete it and leave it at that when we quite clearly wanted the article reworked, albeit in different ways. You will note, if my proposal is implemented, there will still be a Karl Marx article at the end of the process. the only user who advocated for outright deletion without any hope of replacement on grounds of redundancy was HBC, who has only commented once. Nearly everybody wanted a article on Marx, some of us thought this particular iteration was beyond recovery. GR bringing up that yes Marx is missional as if it was a rebuttal and Ze's straw-manning post above are both based on a fundamental misunderstanding of what was being said.-Flandres (talk) 03:00, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
Again, what is a RationalWiki Karl Marx supposed to look like? That's what we need to figure out. I don't think anybody is seriously considering NOT having an article on the guy--Hastur! (talk) 03:03, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
beats me. i suggested a very simple outline up above, similar to what you've suggested. ultimately enough background to give an idea of his life and word he inhabited, some basic summaries of key ideas and works - probably mostly uncontentious stuff i'm guessing - structured in a such a way that things can slotted in a removed if need be without too much hassle or unbalancing the whole thing because there is no sense of time and place. you would not need much in the way of refutations, the in depth analysis being better suited to the page on marxism proper. in terms of legacy i guess from the russian revolution, the cold war and beyond looking the spread of marxism, the effects on the geo politics and conflicts of the 20th century, the outlook going forward, and if he can be blamed for the many atrocities and catastrophic missteps that have arisen. what conspiracy theories exist around him, how the deification or demonisation in some quarters warps our understanding. i stress actual analysis of marxism would be mostly superfluous here, but will need enough to put everything else in context, but im sure that would sort itself out as things are put in place.
are there no templates for this kind of thing to ensure articles have a uniform look and can grow with a logical feel? this isnt the first article thats become a mess with folk adding and removing disparate content with no thought to the whole. i usually just ignore it because culling the chaff would leave little salvageable that im usually ill equipped to replace with suitable content and i look like im just bitching again. basic skeleton of article templates could at least have a foundation to fall back on without needing to go through all this rigmarole. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:02, 7 August 2020 (UTC)
I would agree with the broad outline-a briefest of biographies, the basic gist of his views as presented in his works, a quick look at his legacy, who likes him and hates him, his actual relation to the 20th century regimes claiming his works inspired them, such and such. The finished product would be rather short, and in my own view it should be rather anodyne.-Flandres (talk) 14:49, 7 August 2020 (UTC).
I've already stated my agreement above, but I'll state it here as well. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ This page like all other pages on this Wiki is an examination of the cringe and fringe views of the World, so in context to Marx that's all the bad and stupid stuff he wrote and a mention of all the genocides and mass killing that his work was used to justify. Seems pretty simple to me. Anyway rather than arguing about it, write a new draft version of the page and see what people think. β€” Z 15:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It's nice to see you agree with the core of my proposed solution. Allow me to put forward a compromise. Anyone interested can make their own draft which will later be voted on, but this current page stays in main space throughout that process. I would then recommend anyone interested to not invest too much work in this page because it might get replaced, and instead ask the creators of the various drafts permission to edit those.-Flandres (talk) 15:20, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't really care about Marx[edit]

But tried to include both sides on his stance on Jews, even if the 'whitewash marx', side is a bit culty on this issue. Deleting actual quotes of his would be too far, but will leave it up to the ideologues here to war over this further. Fourier and other older and newer socialists are far more interesting to me than this guy.Neiltyson1fan (talk) 00:35, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

overhaul/starting a fresh[edit]

i have begun a complete overhaul of this article which will not feature much of, if any, what it currently consists of. working on the time line of his life and works at present, and when i have something nearer to worthy enough to replace the current page i will put in draft space for perusal. AMassiveGay (talk) 10:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Seems good to me. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 15:08, 12 October 2020 (UTC)
i feel i should warn folk progress will be slow. i am easily distracted. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:28, 12 October 2020 (UTC)

"Couch Potato"[edit]

The section "Couch Potato" is useless and does nothing other than bias the reader against Marx's ideas. This might be valuable in a biography or even the proper Wikipedia page (on which such subjects are present), but for a website like Rational Wiki, which is focused ideological, skeptical, and scientific subjects, this is pointless. It amounts to nothing more than gossip.

The reference to "carbuncles" is not only pointless, too; it's also a misinterpretation and insensitive. Marx's "carbuncles" were one of many health issues he suffered from. Recently, in 2008, a dermatologist wrote a paper retrodiagnosing Marx with hidradenitis suppurativa, aka acne inversa. You can find that on PubMed here: https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/17986303/

This is a common tactic among Marx's more wingnutty critics, whether they are making stuff up wholesale or cherry-picking parts of the man's life to criticize. For gods' sake, the source on this is Intellectual Takeout, a neoconservative rag! Why on earth would this be a good source for information on Marx's life?

We can have a sensible, nuanced, and dare I say, RATIONAL conversation about Marx's beliefs and legacy. I am a fan of much of Marx's work, but I am more than open to critique. This post is far longer than it should be, but this angers me deeply. We can talk about his theories, the issues therein, and criticize them. We can talk about Marx's complex relationship with philosophy of science, or We can even talk about Marx's weird anti-semitism, or how his theories have unfortunately influenced horrible authoritarian regimes, or even get into the class reductionism we see in Marxist discourse, or, hell, the misanthropic tendencies present in some of Marx's work. But we cannot and should not resort to insulting a man's personal life and disabilities so you can get a leg up.

I say this section needs to go. Monochroma (talk) 17:00, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

Well... looks like I came late to the party. I did not really see the discursive war above this post. I must really sound silly, now.

It's kind of absurd that roughly HALF of this article's word count is dedicated to the man's prejudice and not his political theory. Evidently, the man was a bigot, and that really ought to be addressed. To imply that is even anywhere approaching 50% of his legacy is patently, well, wrong. I definitely think the "Couch Potato" section needs to be axed entirely.

I'm glad there are going to be efforts to rehaul this page. @AMassiveGay, if you want any support on the rewrite, I'd be glad to help in the ways I can. I have some thoughts on improvements and ways to approach certain subjects, but I am by no means an expert on Marx. Monochroma (talk) 15:51, 25 December 2020 (UTC)