Talk:Water memory

	This Homeopathy related article has been awarded BRONZE status for quality. It's getting there, but could be better with improvement. See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.

Archives for this talk page:

<1>

, (new)

Charcoal nanoparticles

PacWalker rudely removed my contribution to the main article without bothering to give a reason. I take it that he saw my contribution as a defense of the homeopathic point of view. Apparently PacWalker didn't get it that my view point is the exact opposite. The quotation I included in the footnote was for me so hilariously funny that I had to laugh. I had hoped that the readers of RW would see the humor of it too. But PacWalker did not.

Let me spell out for him why the quotation is ridiculous. First and most important from a logical point of view, the new "explanation" of the activity of homeopathic medicines by nano particles of vegetable charcoal means that the idea of memory of water has become redundant, it is not needed anymore. Water memory can be stored in the museum of silly ideas on the same shelf as flat-earth, phlogiston, N-rays, and cold-fusion.

Secondly, charcoal is amorphous carbon (without diamond-, buckyball-, graphite-, graphene-, or other structure). PacWalker, being an educated person, knows of course that regular medicines consist of molecules that contain, besides carbon, sizable amounts of the elements hydrogen, oxygen and nitrogen. He will also know that not only chemical composition but also structure distinguishes different medicines. Since the softenon affair we know that even stereospecificity plays an important role in medicinal activity. All this information is gone when the molecules are degraded by shaking and diluting to nanoparticles consisting of only carbon. (For me, being a chemist, it is difficult to understand how shaking and diluting can break the strong chemical bonds in the original active ingredients, but that's another point). Charcoal particles being the active ingredient raises the immediate question: how can different homeopathic medicines treat different diseases? Is the size and concentration of the charcoal particles maybe the determining factor? In my opinion the ludicrous "explanation" by memory is replaced by another one that is equally meaningless.

As a final point: how was the presence of charcoal particles detected? The India Times says:

The highly diluted form of homeopathy medicine used as pain relief was put on silicon vapour and left for drying for a day.

Note that one needs to heat silicon to 2000-3000 degrees celsius to obtain a non-negligible amount of silicon vapor. At that temperature the medicine will not only dry, but completely decompose.

After I wrote the text above, I saw a note on my talk page by PacWalker stating that the India Times can hardly be seen as a reputable source. I agree with this, but homeopaths don't. This is why a put a reference to Citizendium in the footnote, where Ramanand Jhingade added the charcoal findings to the article "Memory of water" with as sole reference the India Times (this is how I knew about it in the first place). From Ramanand Jhingade's history at CZ we know that he considers India Times as a legitimate source.--P. Wormer (talk) 09:04, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

This appears to have been a case of me missing the joke and not more. Whoopsie... I blame MadmanJohnson, naturally. But more seriously, my snark level just isn't high enough. My bad. PacWalker 09:15, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

And just to be a total pedant... "For me, being a chemist, it is difficult to understand how shaking and diluting can break the strong chemical bonds in the original active ingredients, but that's another point." Well, if you shake it hard enough... not quite the same, but I'm feeling very lazy in making my jokes. PacWalker 09:21, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

I will restore the footnote to the India Times. The article is just too hilarious to be missed. By a two-year research (no less) the 220 year old riddle why "homeopathy works" is finally solved by "The homoeopathy practitioner Dr ES Rajendran, director of the Homoeopathic College Vinayaka Mission". The answer is: .... Charcoal! --P. Wormer (talk) 08:35, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Water has memory

It seems there is such a broad based misunderstanding of this subject that it is difficult to understand. Let's consider it this way. There is something called the law of the conservation of information. If water did not have memory this law would be violated. The memory does not take place on the molecular level, but rather of the quantum level, and thus would not be detectable by chemical analysis as this is not where it is taking place. ^{— Unsigned, by: 74.14.24.18 / talk}

Yeah... I'm calling bullshit on that, since all you really did there was use the standard crank argument and attempt to make it unfalsifiable. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:31, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Not sure why you would be rude. I looked at all the studies and the meta studies and the meta studies found only three actual studies that were properly carried out without bias.

Here is the link: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5366148/ I am neither a proponent, nor a detractor from homeopathy. I just want proper research carried out to know the truth. ^{— Unsigned, by: 74.14.24.18 / talk}

Reasoning flaws.

The reasoning does not make sense. Let us look at many drugs found on the market today. LSD is effective at a dose of 100 micrograms, or less. If we took LSD and reduced it by one million times it would still be potent if 100 mg of water were ingested. Fentanyl is even more potent. Many plants are extremely poisonous and must be greatly diluted to be effective. While the idea of water that had no material infused into, but rather was mixed with water that did have something infused, may be stretching this too far, but not impossible. The reason why this is not impossible is the Hamiltonian of the wavefunction of the water must include all inputs that the water experienced, ie, the infusion, to satisfy the conservation of information. WE do not understand the properties of plants well enough to make the judgments this article claims. There is a vast store of chemicals that is not allowed past the blood brain barrier and many chemicals that are rejected through the action of mono amine oxidase. If the substance level is diluted enough it may be able bypass the rejection system and be absorbed into the system. We also know that the exact claim of homeopathy, that like poisons will make the body immune to the poisons, is the way that vaccines work. A small amount of live, or dead virus is injected into the body and this causes immunity to the substance. We can then define vaccines as a type of homeopathy. The claims made here are not supported by the actual research. Most of the studies have not been properly carried out, no matter what the popular press, such as Nature, claims. ^{— Unsigned, by: 74.14.24.18 / talk}

No, that's not how that works. That's not how any of this works. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 19:01, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

PS:On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 19:01, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Logical conclusion

You are drinking the 'ghosts' of the first life forms (however defined) and all the evil people who ever lived (as well as the good). Anna Livia (talk) 18:35, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

Can it be said

This argument does not hold water? Anna Livia (talk) 16:17, 13 December 2019 (UTC)