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[edit] Wiki-Project: Dead Links (sticky)
David noted that he'd been seeing dead links in the articles he was referring to on RationalWiki.RationalBlogs.org, so I put together a project page offsite that lists them all page by page. There may be some false positives because my tools are less forgiving that a browser. There's a raw dump of all dead links at the end of the list. Check it out. Please email me which pages you've cleared dead links from and I'll remove them from the list. If enough people actually do anything about this, I'll write an app that will let you check pages off the list yourselves. Surprise me. ![]()
03:47, 3 April 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Harper's Government
I knew that they weren't shiny, happy people, but this is a shitty abuse of power.--
Jabba de Chops 10:21, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- What get's me about Harper is that he isn't too terribly different then say... Mulroney, except that the man is clearly one of the most petty, vindictive men in Canadian history. Everything is personal with him, and he'll try to stomp on single people in large movements his apposed to, just because he is a hateful man. --Revolverman (talk) 20:44, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Mulroney looks like Jesus compared to Harper right now. (I never thought I'd say that.) Osaka Sun (talk) 23:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- I would vote for Mulroney tomorrow if the Governor-General woke up and decided to dissolve the government today, if it meant kicking Harper out. Ochotona princepsnot a pokémon 11:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Mulroney looks like Jesus compared to Harper right now. (I never thought I'd say that.) Osaka Sun (talk) 23:55, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] The revolution has failed
Counter revolutionary forces have routed the armies of reason and justice. A shadowy secretive war has been conducted, my email account hacked, and thousands of incriminating emails destroyed by agents antipathetic to the forces of liberty. There is no end to the secretiveness, callousness and authoritarianism of this regime. The truth will be forever silenced, now that the regime have disposed of the incriminating documents that would have directly led to their downfall.
I must now take some time to consider my position. As an arch dissident, and leader of the liberty movement, I have been out maneuvered by a regime I had grossly underestimated. I had pictured them as being the Romanov's in their last month; alas, they have been more like Lyndon Johnson when he took out Kennedy.
Will freedom ever reign again? Will the world ever know justice?
For now, we must reorganise and create a grass roots movement to challenge autocracy. Say no to authoritarianism. Say no to censorship. Say no to hatred.
They may have won this battle, but my war is an eternal conflict between darkness and light. It may be very late and night right now, but dawn is just around the corner. When the sun pierces the horizon and lightens the sky, look above you to the hillside where my glittering army shall be prepared to smite thee, in a torrent of righteous vengeance. Fear not! Liberty will come again!
MARCUSCICERO
- "Will freedome vere reign again? Will the world ever know justice?"
- Likely not. Sorry. (talk to a) Nihilist 20:20, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Dont be cruel Nihilist, this is clearly a response to my tragically failed coup to take over Cornwall the past weekend. I would like to thank the anonymous lover of freedom for his sympathy and optimism. Judge HoldenThe Judge Smiles 20:43, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Everybody here needs new material. --MikallakiM 21:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Does this mean we can finally ban this idiot? Oh, this is still Rationalwiki, where any jackass can do whatever the fuck they want? Fair enough.--Token Conservative (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- MC, if it makes you feel any better, some jackass keeps trying to perma-ban me every so often. --"Shut up, Brx." 19:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Hamilton, once again you betray yourself. Your constant and loud declaration that you are indeed a 'conservative' fool nobody, and instead stimulate further debate and speculation about your true motives. Personally, my theory is that you are an ethnic or religious minority who grew up in privileged suburban conditions, predominately alongside WASP Anglo-Saxons. As a result, you've developed the atypical inferiority complexes such people develop in such environments. Instead of embracing your own uniqueness and identity, you crave the false emotionalism that conservatism offers, and cling desperately to the old wealth accumulating practises that so define that most poisonous demographic - the suburban white protestant ideological conservative. Your motives are in question Hamilton, as is your character. MarcusCicero (talk) 20:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- And your continued presence betray's RWs desire to never be taken seriously. Also, Mikal has met me in person before. At the least, I'm white, not that its any of your business.--Token Conservative (talk) 20:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Hamilton, once again you betray yourself. Your constant and loud declaration that you are indeed a 'conservative' fool nobody, and instead stimulate further debate and speculation about your true motives. Personally, my theory is that you are an ethnic or religious minority who grew up in privileged suburban conditions, predominately alongside WASP Anglo-Saxons. As a result, you've developed the atypical inferiority complexes such people develop in such environments. Instead of embracing your own uniqueness and identity, you crave the false emotionalism that conservatism offers, and cling desperately to the old wealth accumulating practises that so define that most poisonous demographic - the suburban white protestant ideological conservative. Your motives are in question Hamilton, as is your character. MarcusCicero (talk) 20:02, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- MC, if it makes you feel any better, some jackass keeps trying to perma-ban me every so often. --"Shut up, Brx." 19:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Does this mean we can finally ban this idiot? Oh, this is still Rationalwiki, where any jackass can do whatever the fuck they want? Fair enough.--Token Conservative (talk) 16:18, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Everybody here needs new material. --MikallakiM 21:29, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
- Dont be cruel Nihilist, this is clearly a response to my tragically failed coup to take over Cornwall the past weekend. I would like to thank the anonymous lover of freedom for his sympathy and optimism. Judge HoldenThe Judge Smiles 20:43, 20 May 2013 (UTC)
Uh.... what. --Revolverman (talk) 08:17, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] I hate adblock
Adblock, god awful interface. Blip.TV, inability to let me easily unblock it. how do i allow ads on blip, because i've tried what I know how to allow ads on it, including going through the lists and disabling the blocks and blanket allowing on all sites. What the crap am i doing wrong? >.< --MikallakiM 03:41, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Click on the icon and choose 'disable on [site name]'. (talk to a) Nihilist 05:26, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if you white list Blip, it will do that so long as you have Ad-blocker installed. --Revolverman (talk) 05:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- No, that's false. (talk to a) Nihilist 18:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Never heard of that page before. Went there. Tested. Got message that, sorry, can't watch with adblocking. Did "Disable on this page only". Hit "reload". Worked. No reason to hate AdBlock+, the best thing since Ice Cream. Dendlai (talk) 06:15, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- For the hardcore among us, firefox + NoScript is where it's at. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 09:27, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- It doesn't matter if you white list Blip, it will do that so long as you have Ad-blocker installed. --Revolverman (talk) 05:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
I use Chrome for everything and keep FF without adblock for situations like this. Faced with mysteries dark and vast/statements just seem vain at last. 14:31, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Or, you know, you could whitelist the specific sites you want the ads to play. It's not that difficult, people. (talk to a) Nihilist 18:58, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Would you like me to make you a video where i've done just that to no effect?--MikallakiM 23:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes. I'm very confident you're doing something wrong… or you're using the shitter Chrome version and it doesn't work properly there. (talk to a) Nihilist 03:43, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Would you like me to make you a video where i've done just that to no effect?--MikallakiM 23:59, 21 May 2013 (UTC)
Incidentally, there's a Chrome extension called ScriptSafe that replicates the primary functions of NoScript for Firefox (though it is not a 1:1 equivalent). Like NoScript, it requires training to learn what sites you do and don't trust, and so it's a real bitch to surf around for the first month or so as you keep hitting sites that you visit on occasion that don't work with scripting completely blocked. However, since I started browsing with scripting off by default this way, the one time I've had a malware infection was when I basically expected to get something and just had to poke the fire by unblocking that sketchy, unusually-named site in some dusty corner of the net. Ochotona princepsnot a pokémon 11:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I don't know too much about it, but the creator of NoScript IIRC was once asked by google as to what APIs he needed in chrome to implement NoScript. The creator happily supplied a description, and when chrome was released, they were not there. I don't mean to sound elitist, but it's my firm impression that any solution for chrome is technically vastly inferior to firefox and NoScript because chrome lacks the APIs for an add-on or plugin to do the needed intercepts to prevent execution of anything and everything. Firefox has a really interesting architecture where NoScript can intercept anything and everything before it's loaded, and no such API exists in chrome. Or at least that's how it was a few years ago. Maybe things changed? I doubt it. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 20:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Meh, not clear it was intent vs. laziness. Ref [1]. Hipocrite (talk) 20:29, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- [edit conflict] Chrome's addon restrictions are its biggest flaw. They could easily allow more freedom to the people who improve your browser for you for free, but instead they placed some bullshit restrictions. Until Pentadactyl and extensions like it can be used in Chrome, it'll never be my nor many other people's main browser. (talk to a) /ˈnai:ɪlɪst/ 20:31, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] This pisses me off
And not even because of the possible homophobia angle. If two people are both in highschool and the sex was clearly consenual, what's the fucking problem? What's the harm? Should she be punished — two years house arrest, one year probation, and permanently being labeled a sex offender is the best current option for her — just because 'it's the law' and you have to blindly follow the law with no exceptions or interpretations based on the intent of it? (talk to a) Nihilist 03:56, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Quick question: if the alleged perpetrator in this case was male, would you have the same opinion?
- To be clear, I'm no MRA, I'm just curious as to how some of the folks here view statutory rape laws. Mr. Anon (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, absolutely. I remember talking to an 18-year-old (give or take a year) over MSN once who said that he had sex with a 14-year-old, and though i was a little weirded-out back then, looking back on it now i'm fine with it… although past fourteen or thirteen is where i even i would draw a line. (talk to a) /ˈnai:ɪlɪst/ 04:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- My own opinion is that this issue clearly works out on a case-by-case basis. However, if we are going to have it addressed by the law, we need to draw a line somewhere. The line of 18 may not be perfect, but the alternative is either another line (which will also have its problems) or eliminating statuatory rape laws altogether. I would hope that if the alleged perpetrator indeed had consent, then a jury would clear her of charges. Mr. Anon (talk) 05:20, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Lots of courts frown heavily on jury nullification. Juries are usually instructed heavily in such a way as to make it seem like that they don't even have the option. I think you could redo statutory rape laws to allow leeway of 3 or 4 years. It's not that hard. High school kids having sex with high school kids shouldn't be illegal. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- This is a real sticky one considering how it boils down to "relationship was started when you were both underage, Romeo laws covered you, one turns eighteen, you are now a registered sex offender...while at the same time, laws must have some arbitrariness to them. I think there should be some kind of loophole for situations like this, but if that were the case, how would one provide proof the relationship had been going on prior? Polite Timesplitter Let's move on to some other area of sodomy! 07:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Being an huge LGBT rights activist, I've thought about this one a lot since I heard about it on the radio the other day. To be honest, I would love nothing more that for there to be a case dismissal or a not guilty verdict by the jury in this case. Barring that, though, I unfortunately have to side with the prosecutor's decision to prosecute this case. Unfortunately, from what Norman Goldman was saying on his show at least, the laws are usually written in such a way that, once law enforcement finds out about a statutory rape case, they are bound by law to prosecute them regardless of the wishes of the victim. If you ask me, if people want to be outraged at this case, they should be outraged at the parents of the alleged victim for turning it over to the cops just because they didn't like Ms. Hunt, and not at the police or prosecutors for doing their job.. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 09:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- From someone outside the US, are there different laws for consent between heterosexual and homosexual couples, or is it that the state is being very selective in its prosecutions? Or is it that most parents don't pursue charges when their daughter sleeps with a guy? RyanC (talk) 09:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- The laws of consent are gender-neutral; they apply equally regardless of sexual preference. From what I understand off of what I've heard and read, the laws are set up the way they are so that, if I am over 18 years old, I can't use my age, intellect, and influence to to groom or coerce a minor into having sex with me (like what a pedophile would do). Romeo laws, from what I've heard anyways, can be applied to these circumstances provided that 1) the age difference doesn't exceed a certain span (4 years by Florida law) and 2) the parents/guardians of the younger child or the child themselves don't file statutory rape charges. Thus, from what I've been led to understand, what caused this case to be prosecuted as statutory rape is not the relationship itself, but that the parents of the younger girl filed charges. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- You need a Public Interest rule. Prosecutors work for the People generally, not for some axe-grinding parents. If it's not in the general interests of the public to prosecute somebody then the criminal justice system has no reason to touch them at all. So the question for a prosecutor (for which they should be provided illuminating guidance, informed by relevant experts) is whether there's a public purpose. Should be able to get fiscal conservatives to support this because it's an inappropriate use of public funds to persecute somebody's enemies if doing so doesn't serve a wider purpose. Ha, as if. Tialaramex (talk) 20:14, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- The laws of consent are gender-neutral; they apply equally regardless of sexual preference. From what I understand off of what I've heard and read, the laws are set up the way they are so that, if I am over 18 years old, I can't use my age, intellect, and influence to to groom or coerce a minor into having sex with me (like what a pedophile would do). Romeo laws, from what I've heard anyways, can be applied to these circumstances provided that 1) the age difference doesn't exceed a certain span (4 years by Florida law) and 2) the parents/guardians of the younger child or the child themselves don't file statutory rape charges. Thus, from what I've been led to understand, what caused this case to be prosecuted as statutory rape is not the relationship itself, but that the parents of the younger girl filed charges. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 09:54, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- From someone outside the US, are there different laws for consent between heterosexual and homosexual couples, or is it that the state is being very selective in its prosecutions? Or is it that most parents don't pursue charges when their daughter sleeps with a guy? RyanC (talk) 09:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Being an huge LGBT rights activist, I've thought about this one a lot since I heard about it on the radio the other day. To be honest, I would love nothing more that for there to be a case dismissal or a not guilty verdict by the jury in this case. Barring that, though, I unfortunately have to side with the prosecutor's decision to prosecute this case. Unfortunately, from what Norman Goldman was saying on his show at least, the laws are usually written in such a way that, once law enforcement finds out about a statutory rape case, they are bound by law to prosecute them regardless of the wishes of the victim. If you ask me, if people want to be outraged at this case, they should be outraged at the parents of the alleged victim for turning it over to the cops just because they didn't like Ms. Hunt, and not at the police or prosecutors for doing their job.. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 09:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- This is a real sticky one considering how it boils down to "relationship was started when you were both underage, Romeo laws covered you, one turns eighteen, you are now a registered sex offender...while at the same time, laws must have some arbitrariness to them. I think there should be some kind of loophole for situations like this, but if that were the case, how would one provide proof the relationship had been going on prior? Polite Timesplitter Let's move on to some other area of sodomy! 07:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Lots of courts frown heavily on jury nullification. Juries are usually instructed heavily in such a way as to make it seem like that they don't even have the option. I think you could redo statutory rape laws to allow leeway of 3 or 4 years. It's not that hard. High school kids having sex with high school kids shouldn't be illegal. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 07:48, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- My own opinion is that this issue clearly works out on a case-by-case basis. However, if we are going to have it addressed by the law, we need to draw a line somewhere. The line of 18 may not be perfect, but the alternative is either another line (which will also have its problems) or eliminating statuatory rape laws altogether. I would hope that if the alleged perpetrator indeed had consent, then a jury would clear her of charges. Mr. Anon (talk) 05:20, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yes, absolutely. I remember talking to an 18-year-old (give or take a year) over MSN once who said that he had sex with a 14-year-old, and though i was a little weirded-out back then, looking back on it now i'm fine with it… although past fourteen or thirteen is where i even i would draw a line. (talk to a) /ˈnai:ɪlɪst/ 04:40, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
@Polite Timesplitter - why not just have the law phrased something like: "Statutory rape is when someone does sexual acts with a second person X who is 4 or more years younger by comparing birth dates, and where X is also less than 18 years old." Voila, problem solved. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 20:27, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I won't answer for Timesplitter, but Bright Line boundaries (your "4 or more ... by comparing birth dates") are generally bad news. If you ask some teenagers how old their potential sexual partners are they will mostly think in terms of school years. A person who is a few days younger chronologically may be treated as "the same" age, a whole year younger, or occasionally a year "older" due to the vagaries of academic years and educational differences. A court though is interested only in calendar years because the statutes are written with bright lines in those terms. In reality, on the ground, any bright line will end up making an ass of the law, at least sometimes. I wrote above about Public Interest rules which can at least restrain prosecutors from deliberately making an ass of the law in this way, but ideally statutes should be written to prefer balance over bright lines as much as possible. Courts are there to look at individual cases, with their own circumstances, bright lines make that harder not easier. Tialaramex (talk) 21:46, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Fair. Allow me to apologize for lack of clearness. I understood the comment as not understanding how to solve the problem of two 17 year olds, and one advancing to 18 years old. I presented my solution only as an ass-pull to demonstrate how that particular problem is solvable, and perhaps a starting point for a good law. It's not a stupidly simple solution, but I still bet we could get a reasonable "layman" law that covers all the cases in under a paragraph or two. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:06, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Great, it's here too
I had little respect for the local CCM music station my mom listens to before, but this is just horrible. I was a bit shocked when i heard it, as i sort of assumed that purity balls only happened in the South, but no: apparently even liberal Seattle has these things. (talk to a) Nihilist 04:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- What on earth is horrible about a purity ball? It's just people working to uphold their personal and religious values. It doesn't affect anyone else in any way. RyanC (talk) 09:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's creepy, mostly. The whole pledging your virginity to your father thing.--"Shut up, Brx." 11:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- You seriously don't see anything wrong with "I'm going to marry who my daddy says I can even though we have no idea if we're sexually compatible"? Polite Timesplitter Let's move on to some other area of sodomy! 11:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's also a complete lie that parent foist on children who are too young to know better. Lets face it, they're going to be having sex before marriage. The only thing this does is give them guilt about it. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 13:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- And how many mother/son purity balls are there? Is "purity" a thing that only applies to unmarried women? Is it a thing to be pledged to their father? Seriously, The father's protecting role over the daughter’s virginity is emphasized throughout the night. I mean, how fucking patriarchal can you get. I'm almost surprised the poor girls don't have to display their unbroken hymen. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure I've seen stuff about somewhere in Africa where they had a committee (of women, but still) to inspect the brides-to-be and that had been subverted into... I think it was either AIDS prevention or some way of fighting FGM. So basically the old moral guardians are now health monitors. It's the old Christian/ Roman trick where rather than stomp all over the local traditions you just tweak them, and then cultural conformance is on your side rather than against you. Tialaramex (talk) 20:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Not to mention, abstinence only sex ed never works, and that is the mentality pushed on these kids.--Token Conservative (talk) 20:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm sure I've seen stuff about somewhere in Africa where they had a committee (of women, but still) to inspect the brides-to-be and that had been subverted into... I think it was either AIDS prevention or some way of fighting FGM. So basically the old moral guardians are now health monitors. It's the old Christian/ Roman trick where rather than stomp all over the local traditions you just tweak them, and then cultural conformance is on your side rather than against you. Tialaramex (talk) 20:34, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- And how many mother/son purity balls are there? Is "purity" a thing that only applies to unmarried women? Is it a thing to be pledged to their father? Seriously, The father's protecting role over the daughter’s virginity is emphasized throughout the night. I mean, how fucking patriarchal can you get. I'm almost surprised the poor girls don't have to display their unbroken hymen. Innocent Bystander (talk) 13:58, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's also a complete lie that parent foist on children who are too young to know better. Lets face it, they're going to be having sex before marriage. The only thing this does is give them guilt about it. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 13:25, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- You seriously don't see anything wrong with "I'm going to marry who my daddy says I can even though we have no idea if we're sexually compatible"? Polite Timesplitter Let's move on to some other area of sodomy! 11:37, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's creepy, mostly. The whole pledging your virginity to your father thing.--"Shut up, Brx." 11:19, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Cold fusion
This might be of interest. Note the author - one "Sebastian Anthony", any connection with Anthony Sebastian on CZ?
Note also: "Stay tuned; we’ll let you know when — or if — the E-Cat passes peer review." (my emphasis) Scream!! (talk) 11:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's some serious bullshit right there. Someone call Randi! "We attached wires to a BLACK BOX which defiantly had heat producing resistors in it and it got marginally hotter than we expected based on our terrible experimental setup." You know what you do if someone hands you a magic black box and you're a scientist? YOU CUT IT THE FUCK OPEN. Hipocrite (talk) 11:50, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm totally quoting your last two sentences later.
d hominem 14:15, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- In the Schrödinger article?--
Jabba de Chops 19:10, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- This is so fucking stupid. I work in a test lab for a living, and I'll tell you this: If a guy strolled in off the street and said "I got this gadget that produces more power than it consumes and-" Before he could finish the sentence all of the scientists, engineers, and techs in my lab would be like "Cool! Let's plug it into itself then!" --Inquisitor (talk) 02:44, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- In the Schrödinger article?--
- I'm totally quoting your last two sentences later.
[edit] Worth it?
My laziness/apathy/mild hatred of this site is keeping from just doing it, but there's a documentary called "Pink Ribbon Inc" about the Susan G Komen group. Basically, the Susan G Komen group is using breast cancer for fun and profit. Most of what they do either rakes in money for the heads (with little going to actual research) or does absolutely nothing (like putting little pink monuments around). Oh, and the dye used in the pink ribbons is carcinogenic. Oops.--Token Conservative (talk) 20:45, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] feminism divide in skepticism and atheism circles
Seriously, wtf is going on nowadays? Let throw out my surely horribly inaccurate understanding of wtf is going on, and I do hope I'm wrong somewhere. So, Lindsay makes a speech at Women In Secularism 2 conference. Off the bat - if he's the CEO, then it doesn't matter he's a white male talking at the conference. If he doesn't go, it could be interpreted as a snub. Here's the text of the talk. http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/my_talk_at_wis2/ The first glance finds nothing horribly wrong. I did see a few veiled jabs at feminism, but minor. IMHO at the very least, it was impolitic considering the background as far as I know. Except one bit. AFAIK, the particularly controversial bit was where he commented on "shut up, and listen". Again, at face value, I have to agree with his comments. On the other hand, it very well could be a strawman position. I read pharyngula regularly, and I don't think it's obviously a strawman of PZ's position. Regardless, still impolitic. Still, like all good idiotic disputes, I think this is quite salvageable at this point, but then people have to dig their holes.
So, Myers replies. http://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2013/05/18/women-in-secularism-is-going-strong/ I think Myers point is very apt. As I said, at face value, I don't think I object strongly to anything Lindsay said. But, the background is that there is a huge campaign of sexual harassment, rape threats, and so on, an amount of hatred directed at women, which is amazing. It astounds me, and in that context, it seems that Lindsay is bending over backwards to try and defend the assholes. That seems like a plausible interpretation. I'm not sold just quite yet, because I'm an ignorant boob. (I think I get sold on it later.) At the very least, Lindsay could have mentioned the insane campaign of hatred against women, and how that needs to stop. Keep everything else, but throw on how there's one group engaging in activities which are wholly despicable, and which needs to stop.
Watson replies. http://skepchick.org/2013/05/the-silencing-of-men/ Talks about some useless pedantics, but basically what I just talked about. See above. At the very least, she wants a simple acknowledgement of the huge problem in the community as opposed to what may appear to be a whitewash. Probably a reasonable position.
Then, Lindsay doubles down on stupidity. This is what made me "choose sides". http://www.centerforinquiry.net/blogs/entry/watsons_world_and_two_models_of_communication/ Watson upped the ante a little, but Lindsay goes even further. Talks about some useless pedantics. He uses some stupid, over the top, hyberbole "It may be the most intellectually dishonest piece of writing since the last communique issued by North Korea.". But then he displays his true position: "But in her defense, perhaps Watson was too busy tweeting about how “strange” it was to have a “white man” open the conference to pay attention to what I was actually saying. (I’m just glad Watson didn’t notify security: “white man loose on stage, white man loose on stage!”)" If you are are professional leader of a diverse community, there is no excuse for that kind of stupidity. Seriously? I mean seriously? You posted that Lindsay?
Am I missing anything important? Is there anything else I should read to be properly informed of this new fiasco? EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:49, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- It feels like we're talking about this in the Bar once a week, and it's getting insufferable. Seriously, who wants to get on with the proposed Elevatorgate article? Osaka Sun (talk) 22:57, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- In my defense, this is a new incident in the ongoing idiocy of humanity. Just want to make sure I have all my facts right. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, it seems like there is an eruption of stupidity once every few weeks these days. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- No one that engages with this issue looks good in the end. Certainly Dawkins, Watson, Myers & Thunderf00t have all tarnished their reputations considerably. In my experience this can often happen when everyone is wrong (or alternatively when the people who are right are right for the wrong reasons); but this is not necessarily the case. I have tried to read articles on what elevatorgate was all about, as I have previously mentioned I was away travelling when it occurred and missed most of the brouhaha. I'm yet to read a satisfying synopsis. Certainly without a working knowledge of feminist thought, experience with the community and intimate knowledge of the event I would be reluctant to create an article that will, in all likelihood, become a lightning rod for the site. However, a well-written article would be appealing to our target demographic Tielec01 (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's my problem. I don't know enough to honestly and accurately summarize the position, so when I don't, it's invariably going to buttloads of invite criticism. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- The summary of elevatorgate on the Richard Dawkins article under the Gender Politics header is pretty good, Tielec. You should read that. There are also some references that might explain it in further detail if you'd like.--"Shut up, Brx." 21:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's an OK summary of the aspects of the kerfuffle relating to Dawkins. On the other hand, our Rebecca Watson article (deliberately?) doesn't mention the incident at all, which is rather a glaring omission. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 22:41, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's an OK summary of the aspects of the kerfuffle relating to Dawkins. On the other hand, our Rebecca Watson article (deliberately?) doesn't mention the incident at all, which is rather a glaring omission. Wèàšèìòìď
- The summary of elevatorgate on the Richard Dawkins article under the Gender Politics header is pretty good, Tielec. You should read that. There are also some references that might explain it in further detail if you'd like.--"Shut up, Brx." 21:36, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's my problem. I don't know enough to honestly and accurately summarize the position, so when I don't, it's invariably going to buttloads of invite criticism. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:07, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- No one that engages with this issue looks good in the end. Certainly Dawkins, Watson, Myers & Thunderf00t have all tarnished their reputations considerably. In my experience this can often happen when everyone is wrong (or alternatively when the people who are right are right for the wrong reasons); but this is not necessarily the case. I have tried to read articles on what elevatorgate was all about, as I have previously mentioned I was away travelling when it occurred and missed most of the brouhaha. I'm yet to read a satisfying synopsis. Certainly without a working knowledge of feminist thought, experience with the community and intimate knowledge of the event I would be reluctant to create an article that will, in all likelihood, become a lightning rod for the site. However, a well-written article would be appealing to our target demographic Tielec01 (talk) 20:28, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Yeah, it seems like there is an eruption of stupidity once every few weeks these days. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- In my defense, this is a new incident in the ongoing idiocy of humanity. Just want to make sure I have all my facts right. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:59, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
I mean, if I were to write it, it would be something like:
- The biggest problem is the insane and absurd abuse and harassment directed at women who speak out about being abused, assaulted, and harassed. That needs to stop. It is not a violation of the principles of free speech to say someone is acting like an unimaginably huge ass, and they should knock it off. It is not a violation of the principles of free speech to withdraw support from organizations that go out of their way to condone, tolerate, support, or otherwise aid such behavior. The values of free speech include the ability to criticize ideas so that we can disregard the bad ones and keep the good ones. The values of free speech were never intended to shield assholes being assholes, and to prevent any reproach or reprimand. They're free to be assholes, but communities should generally not condone asshole behavior, and should shun it to a reasonable degree. (For a more detailed analysis of how this might go too far, see Mill's On Liberty.)
- PZ Myers, Skepchick, and crew, also have some problems. They are miniscule in comparison to the above problem. The "shut up and listen"
mean(EDIT:) meme is badly phrased. Yes we should listen to unprivileged groups. No that does not mean we have to accept their criticism as valid without any input from people outside the unprivileged group. The "shut up" part is slightly inflammatory, IMHO unproductive, and implies this mistaken notion that people outside the unprivileged group never ever know better about the issues of people in the privileged group. However, given we currently do a pretty good job catering to the needs and desires of the privileged group, it's about time we show some concern for other groups.- I just recently read a great way to think about it. There is no "neutral" way to meet the needs of everyone. Instead, the purported "neutral" means to meet the needs of everyone instead happens to target the average person, aka target the privileged group. Instead, fair consideration should be given to everyone's needs, which requires listening to everyone, figuring out their needs, and trying to distribute limited resources fairly to address everyone's needs.
So, I think that's my position at the moment, and I think both sides would rip me apart from that. Just meh. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 21:23, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's mostly true, but there's less need to pay attention to the needs of the privileged because pretty much everyone knows what they are. They've been heard, and they're covered. Rehashing all that is largely a waste of time. It's somewhat like the "equal time" argument from creationists. EVDebs (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think its because the last person to ever be the face of anything, let alone something as dividing as gender politics is PZ and his crew. You need a diplomatic hand to bring up things that most people aren't even aware of I.E. the concept of privilege in society. If you just go around telling everyone how much you're right, and their wrong, then you're going to get shit like MRAs. Those who attack not because they don't like social justice, but because they hate the kinda people who are the face of it. --Revolverman (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- I'm a feminist according to the usual definition, someone who wants sexual discrimination, harassment, etc., to end, and someone who acts for that end. It's included in the values of humanism, and I'll call myself both a secular humanist and a feminist. However, if you disagree with some of the pharyngula-"standard" policy solutions to solve these problems, then they label you a misogynist. My experience with commenters there is horrible. One thread was me against the world on a feminist issue, and another on a energy policy issue. Echo chambers both times, no principle of charity, and an adamant refusal to talk facts and do anything but accept "the conventional wisdom of experts" in the energy policy discussion, where they chose the experts and I did not. (Go nuclear!) It's a giant echo chamber in some regards, which is unfortunate. -- PS: In this incident, I don't actually see much of anything I can call PZ and crew out on yet, which makes me happy. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think its because the last person to ever be the face of anything, let alone something as dividing as gender politics is PZ and his crew. You need a diplomatic hand to bring up things that most people aren't even aware of I.E. the concept of privilege in society. If you just go around telling everyone how much you're right, and their wrong, then you're going to get shit like MRAs. Those who attack not because they don't like social justice, but because they hate the kinda people who are the face of it. --Revolverman (talk) 23:19, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- That's mostly true, but there's less need to pay attention to the needs of the privileged because pretty much everyone knows what they are. They've been heard, and they're covered. Rehashing all that is largely a waste of time. It's somewhat like the "equal time" argument from creationists. EVDebs (talk) 22:30, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] binaural beats
My flatmate is on at me to try binaural beats. My extensive research on the subject (I looked on wikipedia) doesn't really tell me much and the RW page isn't much better. Anyone has any clue as to what they are supposed to do and their effectiveness? AMassiveGay (talk) 23:36, 22 May 2013 (UTC)
- I think you're supposed to get high from them or something. I suppose it could be related to ASMR, which is at least a thing, albeit not very well understood. But other than that, you're probably getting bullshat. EVDebs (talk) 01:16, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Claims made about binaural beats tend to be so vague that they can be difficult to debunk, although many of the most popular products (e.g., I-Doser) claim to be able to get you high. There are loads of problems with this, of course. While brainwave entrainment (i.e., a stimulus at a certain frequency causing brainwaves to match that frequency) is possible, it is not as simple as these products claim. For one, entrainment does not always cause the brainwaves to match beats precisely. Two, brainwaves are not uniform over the entire brain. Three, there is no precise correlation between brainwaves and specific brain or mental states. Brainwaves are not like a dial that you can just put on different settings, and changing them definitely does not mimic the effects of specific drugs like Vicodin. See this list of brainwave types -- note that there is no "get high" brainwave. Furthermore, many of these products claim that there is a lasting effect caused by entrainment, which is not true. Any effect is gone once the stimulus is stopped. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC) (ETA: Incidentally, the same entrainment effects can be achieved through strobing lights. No doubt products based on this will be hawked soon enough.) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- That would certainly support the hypothesis that it's somehow ASMR-related. Of course, as I said, ASMR hasn't really been studied yet, so it's not entirely clear what's going on there either. EVDebs (talk) 19:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- So what, exactly, is ASMR? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's a tingly feeling that seems to be triggered by certain sounds, particularly soft voices and tapping and scratching noises. The name is short for "Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response", which I suppose is as good a name as any for it. There's a whole genre of programming on YouTube dedicated to it, a lot of it loosely inspired by Bob Ross. The funny thing is, it's very popular. Despite lack of formal research, the producers of such videos have gotten frighteningly good at triggering it, and people will sit there for 25 minutes watching someone fold towels for the experience. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably something distantly similar to ACHOO syndrome, but that's pretty close to a wild guess. EVDebs (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Except ASMR sounds pleasurable. I have photic sneeze reflex reflex (ACHOO syndrome) -- while it's only mildly annoying, it's not something I would choose to have. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:25, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- It's a tingly feeling that seems to be triggered by certain sounds, particularly soft voices and tapping and scratching noises. The name is short for "Autonomous Sensory Meridian Response", which I suppose is as good a name as any for it. There's a whole genre of programming on YouTube dedicated to it, a lot of it loosely inspired by Bob Ross. The funny thing is, it's very popular. Despite lack of formal research, the producers of such videos have gotten frighteningly good at triggering it, and people will sit there for 25 minutes watching someone fold towels for the experience. If I had to guess, I'd say it's probably something distantly similar to ACHOO syndrome, but that's pretty close to a wild guess. EVDebs (talk) 03:13, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- So what, exactly, is ASMR? Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 02:59, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- That would certainly support the hypothesis that it's somehow ASMR-related. Of course, as I said, ASMR hasn't really been studied yet, so it's not entirely clear what's going on there either. EVDebs (talk) 19:44, 23 May 2013 (UTC)
- Claims made about binaural beats tend to be so vague that they can be difficult to debunk, although many of the most popular products (e.g., I-Doser) claim to be able to get you high. There are loads of problems with this, of course. While brainwave entrainment (i.e., a stimulus at a certain frequency causing brainwaves to match that frequency) is possible, it is not as simple as these products claim. For one, entrainment does not always cause the brainwaves to match beats precisely. Two, brainwaves are not uniform over the entire brain. Three, there is no precise correlation between brainwaves and specific brain or mental states. Brainwaves are not like a dial that you can just put on different settings, and changing them definitely does not mimic the effects of specific drugs like Vicodin. See this list of brainwave types -- note that there is no "get high" brainwave. Furthermore, many of these products claim that there is a lasting effect caused by entrainment, which is not true. Any effect is gone once the stimulus is stopped. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 18:03, 23 May 2013 (UTC) (ETA: Incidentally, the same entrainment effects can be achieved through strobing lights. No doubt products based on this will be hawked soon enough.) Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 03:02, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
[edit] Fulfilling my biological function
Ace is breeding. I am sure this is a sign of the End Times. Acei9 03:51, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- I view having children a lot like falling down a flight of stairs... hilarious when it happens to someone else. Mazel tov. --Inquisitor (talk) 04:17, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- I am looking forward to teaching my child to hate the things I hate. Acei9 04:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Children sound like work. That and the people i have a reasonable shot at dating and eventually marrying dont want kids anyways. --MikallakiM 04:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Aren't you like 17? Things change. A lot.

05:39, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Nutty knows what he's talking about. When he was 17, he never got laid. Now that he's all grown up and making some money, he can afford the finest adult services that Craigslist has to offer. --Inquisitor (talk) 05:52, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- Aren't you like 17? Things change. A lot.
- Children sound like work. That and the people i have a reasonable shot at dating and eventually marrying dont want kids anyways. --MikallakiM 04:38, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
- I am looking forward to teaching my child to hate the things I hate. Acei9 04:24, 24 May 2013 (UTC)
Congratulations on the biological functions, Ace. Wèàšèìòìď
Methinks it is a Weasel 07:18, 24 May 2013 (UTC)