User talk:ScepticWombat

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What's up, buddy? Welcome to RationalWiki, the internet's most cherished goat. Reckless Noise Symphony (talk) 10:00, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Contents

[edit] You are

Autopatrolled- in other words, us admin folk no longer get notified when you edit. This is our way of saying "you've been doing some good shit around here". If you keep up the good work, it's likely that you could be further promoted (or as we say here, "demoted") to a sysop/admin- this demotion will give you the abilities to change some user rights, to block people, and to do a whole bunch of other stuff I can't remember right now because I'm tired as fuck. Anyway, yeah. Keep up the good work! DØØM MĖSSIÅH Push the envelope, watch it bendDolan.png 10:57, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

Whoah! Thanks a bunch! Don't know what I'd do with "greater rights", you know, power corrupts and all that jazz..., nah, I really couldn't care less about other users' abilities to share their wisdom and/or ignorance. I'm simply happy that I no longer have to complete a word puzzle for every edit I make (whoohoo!) :-D
ScepticWombat (talk) 11:23, 4 November 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Addressing people

Just a heads up: no need to copy/paste the signature links of the people you mention on talk pages, especially the more... decorative ones. Typing the name or a reasonable approximation of the name is enough. Even initials are sufficient, if it's clear who are you talking about. :) --ZooGuard (talk) 11:57, 7 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Vandalism

Please don't vandalize pages on RationalWiki, as you did at Republican Party. Continuing to do so can result in a block on your account. FrankNFurter (talk) 03:56, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

Since when does replacing a grossly simplifying edit with a more accurate and snarky one (which also links to more relevant RW articles) constitute "vandalism"?
PS. I can see that someone else preferred my version too, since it has already been reinstated. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:37, 19 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Greetings!

Thank you, I suppose, for the "welcome", rather than the unwelcome. ^_^ (And Happy Christmas!) As you might be able to tell, I am not the standard RationalWiki visitor. But I looked at the mission statement and POV of this wiki, and while I will not make the scientific method my God (my be-all-and-end-all, for there is more to reason than the natural sciences), I think we have a lot more in common than not.

Now it seems very irrational to attack St. Thomas Aquinas and Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI alongside John Calvin and Ray Comfort. In my naïve Catholic rationalism, it makes you all seem just as bad as the fundamentalist Christians. Fundamentalism is bad, precisely because it attacks things foreign to it without discretion. And it seems Christianity is attacked almost without discretion on this wiki.

That being said, I understand why, somewhat. There are many truly irrational and science-hating Christians here in America, where most of the editors hail from. And a lot of them make a lot of press. I am personally opposed to this sort of thing, and would like to help the viewers and editors of this wiki discriminate between the anti-scientific and scientific (in the sense of encompassing all sciences, including the natural sciences, history, philosophy, and even law). [Only if you reaaaaaaalllly have the time.]

I am not the most learned man in the world. I have much to learn. But we could be allies against made-up nonsense - real made up nonsense - even if y'all wants no part of mah religiyun biyzness. What d'you say?

174.19.85.155 (talk) 15:30, 25 December 2014 (UTC) PS: You may call me "Fr. Yuriy Shevchenko", even if I never get an account. PPS: Happy Christmas, and/or Channukah and/or Kwanzaa if those are still going on!

[edit] The importance of the selection' process in the evolution of wiki page

Hello. I was wondering if you would be so kind as to look at the work I had done on the evolution page, before it got rolled back.

I got the distinct impression that the person who rolled it back meant well, but didn't actually read my changes. The stuff above the index had gotten a bit long, so I moved much of them are in the new Overview section. It's possible that it was thought at a glance that I had deleted other people's work or something, but that is simply not the case. I do not know who is currently active in here, as I am new here, but you seem to care about the topic of evolution, so I'm asking. Thanks.

DonaldKronos (talk) 08:53, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

While I'm somewhat flattered by this "referee request", I think the proper place for such a dispute is on the evolution talkpage and/or the talkpage of ZooGuard, who reverted your changes. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:33, 27 December 2014 (UTC)

[edit] Hiroshima

He's wrong about the reasons for it, but kind of right about the effects; the thermal pulse from the bomb did things like leave areas of unburned skin where people were wearing wristwatches, and there were cases where people received burns which corresponded to their clothing (eg this) but they weren't as comically horrific as is being suggested. King Skeleton (talk) 19:51, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Now that sounds plausible (i.e. protected patches of skin not being burned), rather than the inverted examples mentioned in the article. Again, I see no problem in highlighting the truly horrific effects of the nuclear blasts, which caused multitudes of terrible burns. And I admit to being wrong about the example, so thanks for the pic (however unpleasant it may be). ScepticWombat (talk) 20:02, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
Some synthetics will worsen burns when they melt onto skin, so that could cause patterns to be burnt into skin.--TiaC (talk) 20:28, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
True, there are things that could have happened but might not be written down. However, I think EE is taking more than a bit of artistic license with a number of articles, like inversing what happened with the thermal impacts and patterning of skin. It's just guessing without a source. Some license would be no problem, and I know I have done it, but it's getting a little out of hand with speculation...Hitler owning slaves, not as bad as with the bug bite pain scales...but people are reverting these issues more often than known pains like RobSmith. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 20:44, 31 December 2014 (UTC)
I've has breakfast now; eating healthier should have been a higher priority. Hitler slaves was a book recommended to me on Wikipedia; I haven't read much of it; there was no consesus either way in that discussion other than that it would question the definition of slavery; which is what Drmies said. The pain scale is a zen retort to the fallacy; it's a clever way around it using sciences which should count I think, I believe House uses the a different pain scale in some episode; for what that's worth.

I need to cite the specific pages from now on with something as specific as the atomic bomb disease; that way their is no license; I will be researching that more. Leaving is my New Years resolution, I'll be writing on Rome Islam Egypt China and the Historical Revisionism of the atomic bombings, with a quote from 1984 ""Who controls the past controls the future; who controls the present controls the past." for historical revisionism in general; than I'll be done. It will at least be references to check, and it's history with the exception of the atomic bombings. That cool, sorry about not including page numbers? Exiled Encyclopedist (talk) 00:28, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Good on ya' Exiled Encyclopedist, I apologise if I went a bit overboard with my scorn - not knowing stuff is something we all have to live with, it's not learning new stuff and realising the extent of our ignorance which is the problem. I guess I've just been slightly warped by my encounter with LogicMaster and a dimwit on Wikipedia and so unfortunately generalised overly much. But just be careful if your sources include the kind of colourful language found in the NYT article on Pellegrino - that's usually an indication that your fact checking should be extra thorough. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:47, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Nomination to the Board of Trustees

It's occured. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 05:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

Reminder: You only have until 26 January to accept your nomination. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 05:40, 23 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the nomination, but I'm ineligible, since I've only had an account since July 24th, 2014, and you need a year's seniority to run for the board. Don't think I'd run even if I was eligible, though. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:29, 23 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Sysop

Based on your edits and general lack of insanity, I grant you sysop status. Let the ᴘᴏᴡᴇʀ course through your veins, and also see here for more information. If you have questions, feel free to ask another editor. 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 04:04, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

Damn, what have I ever done to you that you should give me a mop? ;-) ScepticWombat (talk) 08:59, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Category usage

Categories don't always have to fit topic to a "T," so long as they are closely related. In the case of Edward Abbey, it's safe to say, based off the information in the article, he's intertwined enough with the hard green movement that the category fits. He may not have exactly been a hard green himself, but that his ideas are cited by them is more than enough to link him in with the hard green category. Noisemobile (talk) 11:17, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

Okay, that's cool. ScepticWombat (talk) 11:19, 27 January 2015 (UTC)

[edit] About avoiding the repetition of the same citation

Help:References #Repeating references--ZooGuard (talk) 10:02, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Articles for deletion discussion

You may wish to comment on the ongoing articles for deletion discussion about article "John Duffield". 32℉uzzy, 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 02:49, 12 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] European Union

Hey Wombat, thanks for correcting my language mistakes, I'll try to pay more attention to them before I save my edits. Now. I think I should say I disagree that Hallstein was more powerful then Delors. Hallstein in the end lost to his opponents when he got forced out of office by the French 'boycot' during his little fight with de Gaulle, and most of his truly federalist plans and goals were not realised until 25/30 years later. Hallstein was maybe more influential in the long term as a theorizer and thinker on Europe and federalism, but when it comes to power (and I realise I can't objectivly proof this) I think Delors had a lot more. I'd just thought I'd let you know like this instead of reverting your edit, so please let me know what you think. (InsertOpinion) (talk) 15:45, 20 February 2015 (UTC)

So Hallstein lost to de Gaulle - unlike Delors who (learning from Hallstein's example) never tried a similar face down. Just because you lose doesn't mean you aren't powerful. Delors essentially worked within the parameters set by Hallstein's defeat (that no COM President can defy the head of the big core states, such as France or Germany). Hallstein was essentially defining what the Commission was all about and testing the limits of its powers. If anything Delors was harking back to a "Hallsteinian" style of Presidential COM leadership, with the COM in the vanguard of an open and unapologetic federalist agenda. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:54, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
PS. I loathe references to "the average European" even more than the invocation of "the average American". It reeks of the sort of "real Europe/America" as opposed to the (presumably) "false Europe/America" found in Brussels/Washington. Who is this "average European"? Average in the sense of what? ScepticWombat (talk) 16:00, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I concede on the Delors part. But, on the "average European" thing: I am not 'invoking' anything, as far as I'm concerned, by this single reference towards it nor do I have some 'between the lines' hidden agenda. If you really think it's a problem, you can of course take it out. My wording is not always perfect as English is not my first language. (InsertOpinion) (talk) 16:08, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
I might axe the average European (heh), but I'm at least astute enough to realise that this loathing is more of a pet peeve of mine, so don't worry about it ;-) ScepticWombat (talk) 16:10, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Not sure what's controversial about the use of "average" as synonym of "common/ordinary". It's just a way of saying the politicians aren't representing the general population's sentiments. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 16:17, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, that is actually the problem. It's easy to claim that "politicians aren't representing the general population's sentiments", but it's unclear what that actually means. It has become a sort of catch-all term waved about and into which all kinds of more or less spurious claims can be plugged. Unless it's related to a specific issue and backed up with empirical data, it's essentially an empty phrase. ScepticWombat (talk) 16:27, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Well, when a bunch of people vote on parties whose main stance on the EU is "Let's shut this whole thing down." that's a pretty clear empirical indication that a significant portion of the European populace don't agree with where politicians are stearing the EU-project. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 17:21, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
Maybe yes, but I believe the sentence in the article was about the European Community in in the 60s~80s (InsertOpinion) (talk) 17:24, 20 February 2015 (UTC)
If we were to apply it to the contemporary situation, then considering that the "bunch of people" mentioned by .236 is clearly a minority, you could turn the argument on its head and argue that the "average European" is still either actively or tacitly pro-EU, or at least not overtly Eurosceptic. Also, those parties which actually want to "shut the whole thing down" are a minority even within Euroscepticism itself. Essentially, it's UKIP, the (Danish) People's Movement against the EU and probably a couple more. Most Eurosceptic parties don't want to dissolve or exit the EU, but want all kinds of different (and often mutually incompatible) versions of it. I'd actually be more worried about turnout, particularly for EP elections. ScepticWombat (talk) 00:40, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Minor Edit

Once again, thanks for cleaning up after me, let's hope my writing will improve soon enough so you won't have to do this everytime I write something. Anyway, minor question, when dó I use a Minor Edit check? For correcting spelling mistakes or things like that? (Tell Me What To Think)(I'll tell you what to feel) 11:38, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

In short, yes. Minor edits are for spell checks, grammar, correcting errors in links and similar stuff that doesn't really affect the content - other than making it more readable, of course ;-). Adding new links is not a minor edit, nor is adding a single paragraph or sentence, since either of these can easily affect the context and content of the rest of the article. Even adding internal links to RW articles in the "See also" section or categories can affect the context of the article (and are thus not minor edits either). You can also check out Help:Etiquette which is simply a condensed and "RW'ified" version of Help:Minor edit[wp].
Btw, you might want to consider enabling spell checking in your browser as a rough filter - I do that myself (I'm not a native speaker either, though I'm quite proficient. However, I have to remember that my spell check is set for British English while RW tends to run on its U.S. offspring). Or (more cumbersomely) you could consider composing your version in a text document using Word/LibreOffice/whatever, which may catch more "sophisticated" errors in the grammar, and then pasting it into the article. I think the latter approach may be especially useful if you're going to add large amounts of new text (e.g. whole new paragraphs or entirely new articles).
Anyway, good luck and happy editing! ScepticWombat (talk) 12:05, 21 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Bem

Controversial edit... http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Talk:Parapsychology Gcolvin (talk) 03:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

aka another round in "lawyer-fying" RW, aka No, I really don't give much of a fuck about this one, but gave it a shot anyway. ScepticWombat (talk) 04:07, 26 February 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Hitler

How is it cherry-picking to point out that Hitler was an avowed Christian who used Christian rhetoric to galvanize his followers? Let's not pretend Christian apologists have anything resembling a leg to stand on when they try to claim he was an atheist. --ShorinBJ (talk) 18:00, 13 March 2015 (UTC)

Because Hitler's beliefs are far from as clear cut Christian as claimed by certain atheist/anti-theists whose approach seem worryingly close to fundie Christians in their penchant for cherry picking references to God or the divine and claim this is proof of Hitler's Christianity. These references aren't, though they're useful in debunking the "Hitler the Atheist"-nonsense so beloved of Christian fundies. Hitler's religious sentiments seem rather opaque and eclectic with various types of mysticism and vitalism mixed in. Just because Hitler was religious doesn't mean he was a Christian. ScepticWombat (talk) 19:29, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
What do you or anyone know about what Hitler privately believed? He identified as a Christian, and that's pretty much all you need to be a Christian. There are so many hugely different flavors of Christianity that to point at one and say, "That doesn't qualify" is hair-splitting nonsense. It's firmly in No True Scotsman territory. --ShorinBJ (talk) 03:07, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Hitler made private statements that Christianity was corrupt / too Jewish / etc, which probably gets close to his private beliefs. The whole "debate" over Hitler's beliefs is irrelevant; a single man's beliefs do not a Holocaust make. the fact that Hitler successfully used Christian rhetoric towards a Christian populace to rise to power, to justify war, and to justify genocide, should be enough to show that Christianity not exactly antithetical to oppression. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 04:29, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
Of course "Christianity [is] not exactly antithetical to oppression", but I simply don't think that Hitler is a very good example of that. Again, from the arguments I've seen so far, Hitler's beliefs are not clear, though he was certainly religious. To categorically state that he was a Christian doesn't match the rather scanty evidence, though he was at least a cafeteria or cultural Christian,[wp] since most Germans (and indeed Europeans) of that age were either active worshippers or cultural Christians (that's still the case, come to think of it). Saying that he was a Christian without adding any qualifications gives the impression that Hitler was an active worshipper (he definitely wasn't) and suggests that Christianity had a prominent place in, or as an inspiration for, Nazi ideology (it didn't). I get a bit dismayed when some atheists/anti-theists, in my eyes, copy the dubious practices of Christian fundies by trying to place Hitler on "the other team" through cherry picking a few rather unclear quotes and building very strong conclusions on them. ScepticWombat (talk) 06:24, 14 March 2015 (UTC)
I certainly wouldn't claim Hitler was a strong Christian. It seems unlikely that his own religion was something he gave a great deal of thought to beyond using it as a tool to control and motivate people (or as an obstacle, sometimes). But he was prima facie a Christian. He was raised as one, and it was his chosen religious identity, at least publicly. I don't see the need to quote him at all, when we have those facts. --ShorinBJ (talk) 05:07, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Hindutva

Yes, the links are necessary. BTW, have not you find the claims funny? --ThisIsYeah (talk) 09:31, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

Of course I did - that's why I added the humorous links à la Occam's duct tape. It reminded me of the tortuous interpretations of the bible or Koran used by fundies trying to demonstrate their "amazing" accuracy in predicting the future and/or scientific discoveries. Or why obviously legendary material, such as Jesus' resurrection or Muhammad's night journey, just "has" to be unvarnished history. Or, for that matter, the various forms of aliensdidit and/or out-of-place artefacts.
The argumentation is pretty much the same in all instances:
False dilemma + Occam's duct tape = Preferred mystical/magical explanation must be true.
ScepticWombat (talk) 10:06, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
Hindutva groups are very active worldwide and have infiltrated the academic establishment (see p. 23-27 of this report). --ThisIsYeah (talk) 11:29, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
As far as I can see from the report, the Hindutva groups haven't as much "infiltrated the academic establishment" as they have created their own parallel echo chamber of pseudo-academia - I wonder where they got that idea... ScepticWombat (talk) 13:09, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

[edit] Hi

Western schools of thought look at material evidence of history. We can’t produce material evidence for everything. India is a continuing civilisation. To look for evidence would mean digging right though the hearts of villages and displacing people. We only have to look at the people to figure out the similarities in their lives and the depiction in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata. For instance, the Ramayana mentions that Rama[wp] had travelled to Bhad­ra­chalam[wp] (in Andhra Pradesh[wp]). A look at the people and the fact that his having lived there for a while is in the collective memory of the people cannot be discounted in the search for material evidence. In continuing civilisations such as ours, the writing of history cannot depend only on archaeological evidence. We have to depend on folklore too.
—Rao

Source: [1]. Could you figure out the fallacies in this statement? Some points I can figure out are the following:

  • Providing material or archeological evidence is not always possible, we have to depend on folklore too.
  • This means he believes something as true, then trying to produce evidence to support that. This is what creationists do too. What exactly is the term for this act?
  1. That would be a variant of an argument by assertion with a dash of appeal to tradition.
  2. And it of course ignores the very good reasons historians (myself included, btw) have for not simply accepting folklore at face value. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
  • To look for evidence would mean digging right though the hearts of villages and displacing people.
  1. Yes, it is. It's also a red herring or possibly an escape hatch bordering on an emotional appeal ("Oh, the poor farmers!" - as if anyone suggests that it's necessary to move in with bulldozers and demolition crews. Contrast with how we've acquired knowledge of other ancient, but still inhabited, sites, such as Rome, Jerusalem, Jericho or Istanbul). ScepticWombat (talk) 07:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
  • We only have to look at the people to figure out the similarities in their lives and the depiction in the Ramayana and the Mahabharata.
  • What is the logical fallacy in this statement?
  1. It's the same that biblical literalists use when they pull the "these events were real, hence the entire bible must be correct"-stunt that is called the Spider-Man fallacy on RW. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence is probably the most used objection.
  2. It also involves circular reasoning, because it use the fact that folklore match written epics which were originally orally transmitted as evidence that the written version is correct. This is patently absurd and amounts to using the correspondence between the depiction of Spider-Man in the movies and in the comics as "evidence" that Spider-Man must be real and that the movies are essentially documentaries. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
  • In continuing civilisations such as ours, the writing of history cannot depend only on archaeological evidence. We have to depend on folklore too.
  • What is a continuing civilisation? What are the problems in this concept? How could one be sure whether the folklore is myth or reality?
  1. This one reeks of special pleading and ad hoc - it's like when various paranormal woo peddlers make all kinds of excuses why their branch of woo doesn't work when subjected to actually controlled experiments. Try to imagine a Dane, a Norwegian, or a Swede making this same argument and insisting that the tales of Thor and the Jörmungandr[wp] has to be taken as fact(oids), because the Norse lands are "a continuing civilisation". It's a nonsensical notion, and as you correctly pointed out, the vague concept of "a continuing civilisation" isn't even explained (making it something of a hand wave too). ScepticWombat (talk) 07:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

I am waiting for your respose because you know logic and logical fallacies better than me. --ThisIsYeah (talk) 06:09, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Well done spotting the multitude of BS in that short paragraph. And don't worry, you'll quickly habituate yourself to the fallacy lingo here on RW, especially as these fundie types use remarkably similar techniques fallacies, whether they're pantheon stems from the Abrahamic religions, Hinduism, some eclectic New Age mix or something else entirely. I suggest a tour of RW's articles on logical fallacies, especially the fallacious arguments category and its sub-categories of formal and informal fallacies. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:52, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
Wow, thanks, for the detailed refutation. I have added a refutation in Hindutva#Pseudohistory_and_pseudoarcheology. Please review it. One point, many fundamentalists in India try to discredit neutral scholarship arguing "this suffers from western bias". What kind of fallacy is this? --ThisIsYeah (talk) 09:31, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I guess that would be other ways of knowing dressed up as an objection to Eurocentric scientism, but really it's just another garden variety of anti-scientific promotion of pseudoscience. It's similar to the whining among Christian fundamentalist about the supposed "anti-miracular" bias of historians who dare point out that the tall tales of the bible can easily be explained without resorting to Goddidit. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:00, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
I've cut down the responses to Rao on the Hindutva page a bit to make them more succinct. I hope you like it. ScepticWombat (talk) 10:45, 14 April 2015 (UTC)
More elements of laugh and shock here. If possible, you make necessary edits to make the tone more humorous. --ThisIsYeah (talk) 10:28, 15 April 2015 (UTC)
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