Forum:Obesity in a modern society

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You bastards are gonna hate this

But I must say it. I think obesity should carry the same social stigma as smoking. It's unhealthy, it's a bad role model for children and it is avoidable. But only if it is self induced obesity. Some people, due to illness or disability, can't help it but there is no reason a healthy adult should be obese and it should be discouraged as smoking is. Ace ^{of Spades} 09:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

It's kind of hard to stigmatize one cause and not the other...though Ken handles it brilliantly. ~ Kupochama^[1][2] 10:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Are you suggesting that there are downsides to smelling bad, looking like crap, and annoying people on airplanes by spilling over in to neighboring seats? Yup, it's grim. Tax fried chicken, and not my smokes! Concernedresident ^{omg!!! ponies!!!} 10:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Everything Andy touches becomes utterly corrupted and rotten. He has taken a religion of love and turned it into a theatre of hate. Andy's Christianity loves too ... loves to hate. He is the servant of Satan. Auld Nick (talk) 11:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

In response to Ace. I think the key difference between smoking and obesity is that if I decide to stuff my face with pies all day, no one else around me gets fat by being near me. Its not healthy granted, but it only effects me. AMassiveGay (talk) 11:17, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

(EC) But thanks to Liberal Obamacare, I'll have to pay more taxes when your pie-encrusted heart explodes.^{[citation NOT needed]} ~ Kupochama^[1][2] 11:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

In communist London, we thank Stalin for our socialised NHS and laugh at your half arsed obamacare. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:52, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Don't worry, we just leech prescriptions from your Canadian minions anyway. Vive le free market! ~ Kupochama^[1][2] 13:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think social stigma is the way to go. some people eat when stress, for example. and do we really want to achieve good things through bad means? Let's try politeness and kindness--Brxbrx (talk) 11:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

@AMassiveGay - fair enough but that's why we, in western nations, have laws against smoking in pubs etc. But smoking has become socially unacceptable irregardless of location. Over-eating and obesity should be considered the same. It is a drain on healthcare, avoidable and a lesson that should not be passed on to our children. Ace ^{of Spades} 11:35, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I think obesity is already stigmatised to the extent that many people have eating disorders and the media is always pushing unrealistic body images, yet obesity is still a problem. Much of life and work is now sedantry and it is difficult to find time to exercise when your time is taken up through juggling work, family, social life etc. Gyms are very expensive and healthy foods are expensive (fresh fruit is extortionate where I live) if money is tight then these are the first to go. As for the drain on healthcare, are we to stigmatise every activity that may be bad for health or result in hospitalisation? Consider that next time you out on the piss. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

First of all you don't need a gym; walking and cycling, not taking the lift, just being active can provide sufficient exercise. Instead of cola or sweetened drinks I drink supermarket fizzy water (18p for 2 litres) and add some lemon or lime juice. Avoid refined starches especially if sweetened (e.g. many breakfast cereals) and stick with wholegrain wheat/pasta, brown rice. Choose fruit and vegetables in season. It's really more an attitude of mind and having the willpower to resist cheap sugar treats for most of us.  Lily ^{Inspirate me.} 13:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I agree: Gym's are expensive but, for fucks sake, do what I do...I don't gym, I walk everwhere, I work in my garden planting healthy food. Right there is natural food AND exercise. Live in an apartment? Come home and use a few bicycle tubes as resistance. Put a foot on one end, lift with your arms. Fucking sit ups, walks, run etc. No excuse. Ace ^{of Spades} 13:03, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Cycling in London? But I want to live AMassiveGay (talk) 13:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Sounds like the same fucking excuses I used to keep smoking - i.e. Bullshit. Ace ^{of Spades} 13:13, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I should mention that am not over weight. I do in fact eat healthily and I run or do Yoga every day. And cycling in London IS suicidal. AMassiveGay (talk) 13:23, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Correct in my case, though. I'm 20 pounds over what I weighed before the local arcade (i.e. this) closed. Normal movement is boring and hard and I don't wanna. ~ Kupochama^[1][2] 13:28, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

All these replies, and so far nobody has pointed out being thin is more of a health hazard than being fat, and being excessively thin considerably worse than being obese. Dendlai (talk) 13:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

True, but we liberal atheist evolutionists have more experience with obesity. And being thin objectively looks good. ~ Kupochama^[1][2] 13:38, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

That was a good joke, Dendlai. --Leotardo (talk) 13:59, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

All good jokes are based in truth. Are you a thinnie? You realise it's bad for your health? Dendlai (talk) 14:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

All good statements should be backed by links. --Leotardo (talk) 14:11, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The statement about fat etc is backed by a conservapedia link... Dendlai (talk) 14:22, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, statements like "the sky is blue" don't really need strong links to back them. Statements like "the sky is green" do. You're saying the sky is green. --Leotardo (talk) 14:48, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

No, I am simply pointing out that conventional wisdom is completely wrong. Conventional wisdom is strong though, considering the ammount of people who jumped on the "fat is bad!" train contrary to scientific evidence. Dendlai (talk) 15:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

You are welcome to your faith-based opinion of what is healthy. I am more part of a reality-based community where we rely on science and solid evidence. --Leotardo (talk) 15:09, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Frankly, this bullshit judgementalism is what pisses me off. The mental health damage done to kids by bastards like you pointing out how fat they are is far, far worse than any actual physical problems. My sister was driven into anorexia by this "thin is everything" attitude, and went through years of health problems because of it. Luckily she was able to recover, but fuck right off with this cuntish shit. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 15:12, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Bullshit. It's nobody's fault that your sister was fat but her own (or your parents), and it's nobody's fault that she was anorexic but her own. She (and you) need to have a sense of personal responsibility. --Leotardo (talk) 15:16, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I knew you'd make that mistake. She wasn't fat. She was a perfectly normal size but the sort of cunting pressure assholes like you kept putting out caused her to think she was fat. When she turned 18 she weighed under 5 stone at about 5'6". Fuck off with your pisspoor attitude. Some people are just larger than others and fuck you for claiming otherwise. You cunt. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 15:20, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

You made the mistake of inferring she was fat {"...pointing out how fat they are is far, far worse than any actual physical problems. My sister was driven into anorexia...") I don't think I made any claim that some people aren't "just larger than others", and swearing and gnashing your teeth just makes you sound like an idiot without an argument so that you can blame me--instead of fashion magazines, the television, the media, your parents, your sister, you--for your sister's conditions. --Leotardo (talk) 15:24, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Christ, you can't even use proper English. I "inferred" nothing: YOU inferred it. I think you mean "implied", but your uneducated use of language makes it difficult to tell. I'm swearing and gnashing my teeth because ignorance of the kind you're displaying here was what caused my sister - and tens of thousands like her - to be driven into a debilitating mental illness from which it takes years to recover. This unthinking "thin is good" mantra is fucking dangerous and you should never, ever repeat it. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 15:29, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

No, infer was the right word. Thin is good, and the normal, healthy natural state of the human body. But it depends on how one defines "thin". Blaming others for your personal problems leads to an unhappy life, and a reason to not even try to improve since, as you say, the cause is out of your (or your sister's) hands and in the hands of others. I never realized I had so much power, but okay. --Leotardo (talk) 15:35, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

If you can't use English properly, I'm not going to bother talking to you. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 15:37, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

It obviously depends on how underweight or over weight. If you are sufficiently underweight then you die of starvation. On the other hand there are studies which suggest that "calorific reduction" leads to extended lifespan. At least in non-human animals, and there is no obvious reason to suggest we would be different. My guess would be that it would be better to aim under than over.--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 15:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Great, if it wasn't enough with the retarded assbackwards anti-smoking legislation announced a couple of weeks ago, we now have it here. Newsflash, my drug is legal, if you don't like people smoking write to your MPs and get tobacco banned. Good luck getting a cigar ban through the House of Lords. As smoking equates with being obese, it'll take me less time to stop smoking than it would for a chubby fucker to get down to my weight and the NHS isn't spending thousands of pounds reinforcing ambulances to carry my smoking ass to the hospital. -- Iscariot ^{Andy Schlafly for Congress 2012!} 15:44, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

making fun of fat people won't get anyone anywhere

unless you enjoy seeing people get hurt and cry? Ace, social stigma will only make people miserable. take a gentler approach or something--Brxbrx (talk) 13:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Fat Shaming is something both lefties and righties do. Neither side have any interest in actual arguments with regards to the health benefits/hazards of being thin or fat. Thin people are sexy after all. Just because somebody is a leftie doesn't mean they have a brain or can analyse the discourse of something. Dendlai (talk) 13:46, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

did I mention politics?--Brxbrx (talk) 13:49, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

No, but when a group is ostracised by both left and right, it's cause for concern. When the targeted group is objectively no worse than many groups neither side objects to, it's alarming. Dendlai (talk) 13:53, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Drug addicts and sex addicts are also ostracized, and food addiction is just as bad, IMHO. It's taking self-gratification to the extreme. It's really not that hard to lose weight, it's just difficult for people to stop shoveling food down their gullet. I know - since Christmas I went from 206 pounds to 179. Was I an obsessive exerciser? Not at all - I just did weight lifting, cut out junk food and was determined to stay within a certain caloric limit each day. Ace is right - fat people are on the same level as smokers. --Leotardo (talk) 14:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

"It's really not that hard to lose weight, it's just difficult for people to stop shoveling food down their gullet." You realise its not the ammount, but the type of food that determines whether it is fattening, right...? "Ace is right - fat people are on the same level as smokers.". Then what are thin people? Eat some more, stop being walking health risks! I'm guessing you are just trolling though. Dendlai (talk) 14:14, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I fucking wish there would be regulations about the kind of food companies can sell. People wine about freedom and choice and responsibility, but fucking come on. JUST ABOUT EVERYONE is fat. Including me, but I can't really exercise because my back is bad (scoliosis=constant lower back pain). I drive around all day for my job and the only food I have time to eat is either a sub, fast food, or wimpy carrot sticks that leave me as hungry as before I ate them. Senator Harrison (talk) 14:49, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The more you eat, the larger your stomach, so the more food it requires to feel satisfied. That's what makes it hard for people to limit their eating when they are accustomed to over-eating. Every Saturday and Sunday I have a breakfast of two eggs over easy, bacon, French fries and an English muffin. Yet I lost almost 30 pounds. The choice isn't between a pepperoni sub or carrot sticks. It comes down to quantity of food, type of food, time of day you eat and the amount that you move around. Like Ace, I walk everywhere (I'm in NYC) so that obviously was a factor. --Leotardo (talk) 15:06, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Two links, one jokey, one serious: Being fat is good for you, and Now doctors say it's good to be fat. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 14:53, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

That study in the Independent is only one study versus a mountain of contrary evidence ("It's just rubbish," fumed Walter Willett, the professor of epidemiology and nutrition at the Harvard School of Public Health). But even that study makes it clear it only applies to a moderate amount of extra weight (under 30 pounds). --Leotardo (talk) 15:06, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

If it is a mountain, please point to it. And just saying "it iz there. I haz seeen it!" is not enough. I am not religious, I require actual evidence. Dendlai (talk) 15:15, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Try Google - I don't really have an interest in convincing you that the sky is blue. You are welcome to believe what you would like to believe because it makes no difference in my life. --Leotardo (talk) 15:18, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Troll detected and averted. Dendlai (talk) 15:21, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Leotardo has proved himself to be a total asshole with this. Either he knows what he's talking about, in which case he's either a troll or just massively insensitive and uncaring, or he doesn't, in which case he's an ignorant twat. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 15:25, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

being overweight is not healthy. neither is beong a jerk to people who suffer from weight problems--Brxbrx (talk) 15:58, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

The original point

No doubt obesity is a serious health concern, especially on this side of the pond, and childhood obesity in particular is an issue that needs to be addressed. But I and I'm sure some of the rest of you know how cruel kids can be. I took enough grief as a teenager for my weight and thick coke-bottle glasses (before i blossomed into the total studmuffin that I am today) that I have serious objections to a teacher condoning the kind of hateful drivel that Ken churns out on Conservapedia, especially when he tauts his website as a learning resource for teenagers. PACODOG^{woof, bitches} 15:07, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is supporting the kind of ridicule Ken and CP are dishing out to the overweight, and none of my statements should be taken as condoning how awful those guys are. Overweight people should be under no illusions about how bad their eating habits are for them (and healthcare budgets), but they shouldn't be ridiculed so viciously, either. --Leotardo (talk) 15:13, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

And yet, how ridiculed are the underweight, which is something close to everybody? It's a really serious point, and if you don't understand why examining why fat shamning and thin shaming is so important.... You are missing every point. Dendlai (talk) 15:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

you have to be seriously underweight to be unhealthy. kate moss, for example, is healthy (apart from the drug habits- sry, only thin celebrity that's coming to mind right now). anorexics die of heart attacks, but thinness in general, i.e. eat enough, will not kill you like eating too much will--Brxbrx (talk) 16:01, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Kate Moss is seriously unhealthy due to her weight. People don't understand just HOW unhealthy thin-ness is, and newspapers don't report it because it is perceived as hot. And yes, thin-ness in general will kill you. Fat-shaming is one hundred percent political. "Phat ugly, hence dislike. Thin seksy, hence like!". Dendlai (talk) 13:58, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Stigmatized twice

Well, here I find myself, an overweight smoker, stigmatized twice as hard as "normal" people. Well let's start at the beginning: Ace your argument is bullshit. So what you are actually saying is "stop having fun, I don't want to pay for the consequences". So you say you live healthier because you walk and ride you bike? Of course you do - as long as you don't have an accident. Should you now be stopped from walking or riding a bike because others might pay if you fall and brake a leg? I'm sure you don't think so. Or something else: alcohol? Alcohol can be healthy in small doses (same as sugar) but if one overdoes it it get's bad - should one be stigmatized because they had 5 beers a night? I'm sure not. Now, why do we have UHC? It's probably not that somebody can save his own ass when for example he get's lung cancer or falls from his bike breaking a leg, it's saving other peoples asses when they couldn't do it themselves. It is NOT a social contract in which you have the right to get paid what you deserve NOR does one have the duty to be as healthy as possible. The argument "but I don't want to pay for your stupidity" is so stupid (because we will pay for your's) that I just want to take your health insurance away for just saying it. If the capatlistic egoism has gone so far to deliberately harm others psychologically just because you don't wanna pay a buck more a month, then it has gone to far. Demanding the harm of others for oneselves profit, there's a word for that: antisocial. Don't get me wrong, smoking is bad and harmfull and eating too much is too. But stigmatizing people, many of whom only eat because they are stigmatized anyway (for something else e.g.), will not make them stop (as your "man up"-logic might suggest) but only make it worse. And kn ow for the real rant. Thousands and thousands of years people having a little stomach and a bit of fat around hips was seen as healthy, because being a bit "overweight" (a term that didn't even exist back then) was a sign that somebody had enough food. So here comee industrialization and makes food pretty fucking cheap, suddenly women get thinner and try to be more perfect and more perfect and more perfect all time (seriously ladies some of us think it has become annoying). And here comes the social pressure: what was jews and black people for some time has now become people that aren't fit. Now smoking is bad (or evil for some people), being overweight should be stigmatized (even more you mean, right?) - but people happily drink alcohol all time? So why that? Why is that allowed but if I eaght sweets when I want to it's bad? Because you people do it too. In social dynamics there always have to be the outsiders, you know, the ones the insiders can look down up on, pitty and mob a bit - just to make themselves feel better. Seriously we are the new jews or "niggas". Actually, everytime I get bullied for something, I simply ask "Do you feel better know?" - never has anybody done it a second time after that question. Rant's over. --Ullhateme (talk) 16:12, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

the dangers of riding a bike are not comparable to the dangers of obesity and smoking. the latter two are simply bad for you, and provide no benefit. obesity is also a problem of excess. you can ride a bike to much, I suppose, but inherently cycling is not excessive. smoking is just plain dumb.

That said, I must reiterate that just because someone is fat doesn't mean they should be made fun of. This wil,l not help anyone at all. We've been making fun of fatties for quite some time now, and nothing has changed. Ullhateme, dendlai, and SR, I urge you out of concern to try and lose some weight. The next time you'd eat a donut, eat a bagel (sorry if that's a stereotype). Instead of french fries, order a salad. Try boiling your vegetables instead of stir-fry. Go for a walk. Get a dog, walk him. Park further away from your place of work. Make me happy, lose some weight. It may not a lways be pleasant, but you'll feel the benefits. Movement will be easier. Your logistics will no longer be impaired by obstacles such as narrow spaces (hey, I've had trouble fitting into things too!). Clothes will fit more easily. You'll have more energy, things will seem easier. I promise you your life can improve with only a few simple steps. And weight loss can be fun and games, too! Try avoiding stress. Meditate, relax. Stress increases your levels of cortisol, which causes you to retain fat. Of course, one of the best ways to eliminate stress is exercise. Hard to worry about work when you're exhausted from a jog. You'll sleep like a baby! Just rememer, maintain a balanced diet. Eat everything on the food pyramid (you can skip sweets), keeping in mind that the less oil and starch in your food, the less weigh tit will make you gain. Now, my advice may only help you to lose a handful of pounds, but I'd say that's a handful you won't mind losing.

AceMcSpades, the answer is not hate. The answer is love. Love. srsly--Brxbrx (talk) 17:42, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I could stand to lose a bit of weight, but that's not why I'm getting pissed off with Leotardo. It's the obsession with weight these days. I agree with Ullhateme that being overweight is becoming the new "okay to discriminate against". My concern is that things such as this and this are becoming increasingly common. The constant bombardment of children with an idealised body image is already doing harm and shows no sign of stopping. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 17:55, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

LOVE-Brxbrx (talk) 18:02, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

I find this whole discussion remarkably depressing. I expect the people on this site to understand both the nuance of what elements are tied to obesity. Many, many things have been found to lead to it, but the fact is that the conditions do not apply to everyone. If I made the effort to get down to 180, (which I think I weighed back around the middle of high school) I would need several years off of work. Statements like "try avoiding stress" are the equivalent of "get happy, stupid!" Does anyone actually seek out stress? We should know that these types of generalizations are what make Andy look like a moron. If you think it's appropriate to discriminate against people for being fat, go for it, but realize that nearly everyone, except for the shallow, vapid people who share that perspective, will be willing to be friends. -Lardashe

Brxbrx, you have no clue how overweight I am, what I eat, how active I am or why I'm overweight. I'm about 30kg (I think that's 60 pounds) overweight - steadily for the last ten years; no matter if I did sports or not. I urge you out of concern to try and lose some weight - but, but that's simply none of your business! The next time you'd eat a donut, eat a bagel (sorry if that's a stereotype). I don't eat many donuts, but if you could get me bagel in Hamburg I'd be thankfull ;) Instead of french fries, order a salad. - I generally order both, is that good or bad? Try boiling your vegetables instead of stir-fry - Vegetables arrive in my mouth vastly cooked or out of the cafeteria wok so I don't really know what they did with it there but I don't think they are stir-fried. Go for a walk. Get a dog, walk him. I walk about 2km a day and I live in a dorm so a dog is not an option - and if a pet then a cat anyways. Make me happy, lose some weight. - Why the hell would that make you happy? Has beeing overweight become some sort of public indecency? Should I put a tent over my head or will they think I'm a female muslim terrorist then? Park further away from your place of work. - I don't have a car (not even a license) and I walk 15 minutes to the bus I take to uni. Movement will be easier. Your logistics will no longer be impaired by obstacles such as narrow spaces (hey, I've had trouble fitting into things too!). - now that's just plain insulting. Try avoiding stress. Meditate, relax. - Would like to see you doing that jumbling 60 hours of studying a week (also on that topic, but that's out of range for me now). You'll sleep like a baby! - I allready do!

Don't tell a happy guy he should get happier. I eat reasonably healthy, I'm fit enough. I tried a diet once - out of that childish consern of fitting into the norm - I was so motherfucking depressed, I hadn't eating anything I like in week. I'll rather die with 70 as fatty and be happy that time, then with 120 and didn't really enjoy myself for all that time. If you're happy slim that's get great, let others be happy too. I'll gladly help a fatty loose weight if he or she thinks it'll make him happier. But fucking stop whining around how we all will be happier, accept the fact that people can be happy and not do the same thing as you do. Everybody reigns over there body as they want to, I can eat fat when I want to, I can smoke when I want to, I can break a leg when I want to and when I want to I can put a gun into my mouth and pull the trigger - that's my freedom and nobody has the right to take any option away from me. FYI, "you'll be happier if you do what I tell you" feels more insulting then "I don't want to pay for your stupidity". --Ullhateme (talk) 20:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

why so bitter?--Brxbrx (talk) 20:47, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Where was bitter in there? Should have came over as slightly pissed and my comments on your "tips" should have come over as sarcastic (more or less). --Ullhateme (talk) 20:57, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

noone likes to be lectured, a shame since I love lecturing. but I also do it because, guess what, I don't want you to die. I don't know you, but I still care about you. Just like I care about all human beings. And I sincerely believe that you'd be better off if you considered a healthier lifestyle. My tips, btw, were just suggestions. You're right, I don't know how you live your life.
And you're right that it's your body and you can do what you want with it (though I wouldn't let you shoot yourself, that's too far): so that's why I'm not forcing you to do anything. --Brxbrx (talk) 21:06, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

And yet, you completeley ignore thin people and would never ever suggest they adopt a healthier lifestyle. Why is that again? (And no, anorectic is not thin. Thin is most people deified in the western world today.) Dendlai (talk) 14:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

you are in denial if you think thinness is unhealthy. one can easily be thin and have all the nutrients necessary for a long and healthy life. "NO U" may not have it's own logical fallacy page here on RW. A shame, I'd point you to it. The reality is, doctors do not bemoan thinness. Across the world, they don't. Extreme thinness, of course, is unhealthy, because it implies that you're not getting all the stuff you need to live. But not thinness.--Brxbrx (talk) 15:38, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

ARG I HATE THIS SO MUCH!1!!

I know, but it is interesting to read. Тy^Talk. 23:02, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Reading this forum has been very depressing. Blue (is useful) 23:54, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Indeed. I'm glad I'm in decent shape. Тy^Talk. 01:37, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Try some lateral thinking

I think this was in one of Dan Ariely's books. Some people who wanted to lose weight took a "weight loss challenge," where they bet their friends that they would lose x amount by x date and weight loss/exercise objectives had to be met each week. In other words, it was a "health competition" with monetary rewards. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 23:24, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Interesting. Sort of like Iran and the kidneys?Тy^Talk. 23:26, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Uh, not really. More like, "I'll show [insert friend's name here]. I'll be twice as healthy as that bastard!" Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 23:31, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Тy^Talk. 23:33, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

"Erm, what's a lateral?"

"Dunno. I think it's some kind of muscle..."

"Thinking with your muscles. Ah, yes... I see."

Dendlai (talk) 14:08, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Since you slothfull doorknobs missed my point...

...I will reiterate and re-explain. Some of you seem to equate my initial statement with being bullied in the school yard for being fat or that I seem to be advocating "fat-shaming" which is far from what I mean. I'll explain with an example...I was in a KFC recently, treating myself to something unhealthy...treating myself is key here. And I saw some giant rotund mess of uninhibated flesh, I believe it was a female, eating a giant bucket of wings while also shoving handfuls of fat laden potato chips smothered in gravy into the keening maw of her corpulent spawn. That for me is child abuse and I believe it should be as frowned upon as smoking. Ace ^{of Spades} 01:20, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

And what's this bullshit about anorexia and unreal body image? That is irrelevent to my point. This has nothing to do with how society views you in a sexual/pretty/fasionable sense. Ace ^{of Spades} 01:24, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

making fun of people and insulting them won't help them lose weight. We've been trying that for quite some time, now. Still lots of fat people, if not more.--Brxbrx (talk) 02:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Where have I advocated making fun of people? Does society make fun of smokers? No, we make it clear that there is a real danger to one's health and society moves it attitudes to where such behaviour is no longer considered socially acceptable. Which is what we should do regarding obesity. Ace ^{of Spades} 02:17, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

giant rotund mess of uninhibated flesh, I believe it was a female, eating a giant bucket of wings while also shoving handfuls of fat laden potato chips smothered in gravy into the keening maw of her corpulent spawn —Ace

slothful doorknobs —Ace again

corpulant scum of decaying, heart-attack inducing orcas —still Ace

I do find your latest take more palatable, though.--Brxbrx (talk) 03:04, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

In Ace's defense, he is fantastic with words. Blue (pester) 03:10, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I might be amazingly, utterly out of touch here, but I've always assumed that overfeeding children is frowned upon. Never in my life have I experienced "being fat" as socially acceptable for any age bracket, either. Nor have I ever met anyone or even *heard* of anyone who doesn't consider obesity unhealthy. I don't think you can stigmatise obesity any more than it already has been other than being overtly insulting. X Stickman (talk) 04:21, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

How is debating maratrean more interesting than debating me?--Brxbrx (talk) 05:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Difference between obesity and smoking

I agree that both obesity and smoking should be discouraged as bad for human health. At the same time, there is a major difference between the two issues. You can eat all you want, by doing so you don't make others eat the same food if they don't want to. But when you smoke, you make others around you breathe in your fumes, whether they want to or not. Obesity does not in general infringe on others - in some specific circumstances - such as airline seating - it can, but it doesn't in general. There is no such thing as second-hand eating, but there is such a thing as second-hand smoke. Obesity in public doesn't infringe on others rights, but smoking in public does. See my essay Smoking violates human rights. --(((Zack Martin)))^™ 02:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Fucking hell, I have said several times it should be treated the same as smoking, I haven't aquainted it with smoking. I don't see what is so hard to understand here. Look at my example above, the poor choices of parents have a direct impact upon their children. Second hand eating? The corpulant scum of decaying, heart-attack inducing orcas who feed their children empty chalories and pork drippings are perpetuating this filthy habit. It is just as bad as second hand smoking if not worse. Ace ^{of Spades} 02:38, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I don't understand the virulent hatred for obese people your statement seems to express. I don't believe in hating anyone, whether they are smokers or obese. Yes, children can be influenced by their parents to all sorts of bad habits - excessive eating, smoking, excessive drinking, drug abuse, racial hatred, disdain for education, welfare dependency, the list goes on forever. But I think we need to draw a distinction between behaviours which might encourage emulation by the impressionable, and behaviours which actually force others into participation. --(((Zack Martin)))^™ 02:46, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Behaviours which force people into participation? Yeah buddy, a four year old is really gonna turn round and ask their mother for a salad. Until the age of 12 say it's "eat what I eat". Ace ^{of Spades} 02:53, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

And STILL you miss the point which is as a society we must come together and say "It's not on". Ace ^{of Spades} 02:54, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

It's not always true with children they'll eat what they're told. How many parents struggle to get their kids to eat vegetables or so on. You are right that parental dietary habits have a big impact on children, since the parents are going to be a major source of food for the child. But smokers just don't force their kids to breathe in their smoke - they force heaps of other people to do so too. If a guy is walking down the street eating a Big Mac, that doesn't make me eat one too. But if he walks down the street smoking, he forces others to breathe in his smoke. So, yes obesity is an important public health issue - but there are added elements of the rights of others that exist in the case of smoking, which don't apply to obesity. In that sense, smoking is worse than obesity. --(((Zack Martin)))^™ 03:55, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

You fucking fascist scumbag - who the fuck do you think you are to tell me whether or not I can smoke? Piss off. Ace ^{of Spades} 05:11, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

You know, you could respond calmly and rationally to my points, with contrary arguments or evidence. Instead, you resort to swearing and name-calling. --(((Zack Martin)))^™ 05:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

you know Do I?

you could respond calmly and rationally to my points Or I could go out on to my deck and smoke a cigarette while masturbating to your failed dreams of forcing the world do do as you say

Instead, you resort to swearing and name-calling Typical anti-creationist ad hom. Ace ^{of Spades} 05:19, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

lol--Brxbrx (talk) 05:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Or you can just stop being a giant dick and actually explain what you really meant - because it sounded like "let's bully the fatties publicly" to most of us. AN ORCA HAS SPOKEN. --Ullhateme (talk) 14:28, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll play your reasoned argument game. So, just that I'm clear, your argument is that if something I could do in a public place could cause negative health impacts to a bystander then that behaviour and its cause should be banned? Have I got that right?

And just to counter some of your daft arguments, unless you are blind, like fully legally blind, no-one is forcing you to breathe their smoke. Evilution has gifted you with these wonderful things called eyes, use them. Spot a smoker, or anyone you don't want to be near like a Twilight fan, and cross the fucking street. There'll be precisely one metric fuck-ton of air between you and the smoker and nothing will happen to you. If of course you aren't whining about the streets but us smoking in our own homes, simple, leave. No-one's forcing you to associate with people who smoke, so don't do it, you have a Human Right to Freedom of Association, that includes not associating with people as well. -- Iscariot ^{Andy Schlafly for Congress 2012!} 10:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

"your argument is that if something I could do in a public place could cause negative health impacts to a bystander" - well, for me the negative health impact is a reason, but not the whole reason. It's also the issue of putting things in my body (smoke) that I don't want there, health reason or no.

you advise crossing the street - why is it the non-smoker that always has to move away? Maybe the smoker could have the decency of not smoking in the presence of others?

and as to smoking in a private home, in an apartment or other medium/high density living situation, smoke from one property can easily drift on to neighbouring properties, causing health problems and amenity issues. This can be the case whether the smoking is done inside or outside (e.g. on a balcony). Why should the non-smoker have to move from their own residence - especially since, in some cases, the smoker may be the new neighbour? The non-smoker isn't polluting the air of the smoker's residence. The reasonable thing for the smoker to do in this case would be to not smoke at home, to go somewhere else - such as maybe in the middle of a large field of grass, where their smoke is unlikely to bother anyone. Or just don't smoke. If someone is addicted to nicotine, they can get nicotine in other ways than smoking (such as an electronic cigarette, nicotine patches, nictoine gum, etc.) None of these force bystandards or neighbours to breathe in the fumes... --(((Zack Martin)))^™ 10:43, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Why is it the non-smoker that always has to move away? They don't! It's entirely their own decision whether they avoid people who smoke or they don't. ωεαşεζøίɗ^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 12:27, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

smoke from one property can easily drift on to neighbouring properties, causing health problems - a few years ago humans made a discovery, they called it "glass", they thought then that they could fill the holes of their walls with a thin forms of said material, they even invented a bordering for it and included an opening mechanism. If the name of these things come to mind, you might use them some time. --Ullhateme (talk) 14:33, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

the smoke would have dissipated long before it reached you anyways. It would then be about as effective as homeopathy. But I would say, if you're a smoker, that the polite thing to do is not smoke around others that aren't ok with it. Think of it as farting in public.--Brxbrx (talk) 15:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

tl;dr

Fat fucks who get new knees on the Medicare piss me off. Especially "conservative" ones. Most especially teabaggers. ħuman 06:35, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Yes, apparently, you did not read it. Тy^Talk. 12:03, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Rational Bigotry

My only comment to this forum is that I'm pretty disgusted with some of the crap I've read on it and elsewhere on this site over the past few days. Smokers can fuck off? Overweight people can fuck off? Is this rational? You disappoint me. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 11:02, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Searching the comments on this page the only person who seems to have used the phrase "Fuck off" is you. (And now me.)--Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 14:38, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

You understand that I was generalising, right? Chrissakes, stop being so literal. –SuspectedReplicant retire me 14:40, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Just trying to be rational. :-) --Bob^{Spring is sprung!} 14:47, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Unhealthy lifestyles are already discouraged

The argument here seems to be that unhealthy eating & unhealthy lifestyles which lead to obesity should be discouraged in the same way that smoking is. In a lot of places, this is already the case. In the UK, the government has public awareness campaigns about the dangers of smoking, binge drinking, & unhealthy diets. The main campaign about healthy eating is Change4Life. The point is not to stigmatise obesity as such, but to raise awareness of the risks & send a positive message about healthy living. These campaigns are only partially successful, because these unhealthy activities are cultural norms among large sections of the population (especially in the case of binge-drinking) & because there is a cynical tendency to disregard government advice. Nevertheless, concepts like 5-a-day (eating at least five pieces/portiuons of fruit & veg per day) & cutting down on salt as well as fat, have entered the public consciousness in recent years, & influenced a lot of people's eating habits.

The anti-smoking campaigns are arguably the most successful, because the risks (especially cancer) are perceived to be scarier than those associated with unhealthy eating or drinking, because smoking is very expensive, and because the UK's ban on smoking in pubs, clubs & restaurants makes it less convenient to smoke & easier for people to quit. Nevertheless, I don't think smoking (other than in pubs etc.) is "stigmatised" as such, just gently discouraged. It would be hard to envisage a comparable ban relating to obesity, & I don't think it would be desirable. Getting a positive message out about healthy living is a better option. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 12:53, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

"&" is not a word. Use it less. Srsly. Dendlai (talk) 14:13, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

"Srsly" is not a word either. Wẽãšẽĩõĩď^{Methinks it is a Weasel} 14:44, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

For the final fucking time

I never advocated bullying fat people, I am saying our society needs to view over eating and unhealthy diets with the same eyes as smoking. Are smokers bullied and teased? No. But as parents raise their children to think smoking is bad but the smoker is not we also need to raise them to not stuff their fucking faces with macdonalds 3 fucking times a day. You people disappoint me. Ace ^{of Spades} 19:45, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I'd say that smokers are screwed around, as anyone who's had to travel transatlantic via a connection at Heathrow knows. Fuck that airport. Yeah, more healthy lifestyles in general would make sense. I'm fortunate to be able walk home from work, and get around most of the time on foot. Some areas and people are just too reliant on motor transport when there are healthier options. Eating less shite would also reduce waste. Oreos and their notoriously wasteful packaging comes to mind. Concernedresident ^{omg!!! ponies!!!} 20:26, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I never advocated bullying fat people then don't toss insults around, mkay?--Brxbrx (talk) 20:28, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

I'll never stop tossing insults round...but I am fair in my insults in that I insult everyone equally. And concerned resident is at least able to grasp what I am trying to say without having a knee-jerk reaction. Ace ^{of Spades} 20:31, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, it's something that should come more as a zeitgeist thing than through blunt legislation. In some cases legislation is appropriate, such as in the labeling of food. I think that all chain restaurants that serve a reasonably consistent menu should be obliged to provide nutritional details for what they're selling. I know burgers aren't exactly health food, but seeing labeling kind of brought the message home. It's far more difficult to sit there eating the things when I know that a tiny meal is giving me a disproportionately large percentage of my fat and salt. Aside from that it's an attitude shift. Being overweight looks pretty unpleasant. I'm not talking about the slightly pudgy, because I like that. I'm talking about people who have no discernible neck! Fortunately it doesn't seem to be as serious an issue here. I've seen very few seriously obese people here in Cork. Concernedresident ^{omg!!! ponies!!!} 20:41, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with a little extra kilos. Ace ^{of Spades} 20:48, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

Ken scores a major troll of RationalWiki

Somewhere out there Ken DeMyer is reading this board, over and over, laughing hysterically since the vast consideration we gave his imbecilic "satire" was the genesis of all this. I have to give you credit, Ken. You may be smarter than I thought which isn't really saying too much, but there you go. --Leotardo (talk) 03:30, 28 March 2011 (UTC)