Talk:Cassandra affective deprivation disorder

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Editorial notes Could use some expansion and more depth. Tagged since February 2023

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Comment

I came across this page seeking information after the realization that my dad has Aspberger's. It's horribly biased, and doesn't even pretend to be charitable in considering the reality of someone living with a parent with no concept of other minds, growing up feeling ignored, etc. It's as if it were written by someone with Aspberger's as a personal defense against this reality that many people live with.

For a site that has the word "rational" in the title, this page is a disservice and diminishes this site's credibility. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2600:1700:dac0:5cf0:a9ed:42f0:956b:d83 / talk / contribs}

I see, and what specific parts of the article are actually wrong? If you're searching for this term, you didn't exactly get it from a credible source in the first place. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 19:53, 14 November 2019 (UTC)

Not the OP but I first heard of the term in a Japanese newspaper. Anyway, I understand this is a sensitive topic because many feel attacked by the resources describing it, but I have to agree with that other guy that this article doesn't seriously address the claims. It seems like the article about "racialism" linked from here gives a fairer hearing to the ideas of scientific racists than this article does to promoters of Cassandra Syndrome. What I'd really like to see is a discussion of this topic that is not clearly coming from an emotional place, but it seems like instead you can only get extreme takes, either pro or con, from people who are too personally invested in the conclusion before they start their examinations. ^{— Unsigned, by: 24.62.55.47 / talk / contribs}

"It's horribly biased, and doesn't even pretend to be charitable in considering the reality of someone living with a parent with no concept of other minds, growing up feeling ignored, etc. It's as if it were written by someone with Aspberger's as a personal defense against this reality that many people live with." Because it's not like neurodivergent people have any experience living with the reality of growing up with parents, other family members and authority figures who don't understand how our minds operate. No, that's only the poor put-upon NTs. How you must suffer being able to rely on the fact that the vast majority of the population share your neurological makeup enough to be able to understand you on an instinctual level. I can't possibly imagine the struggle. That was sarcasm. Contrary to popular belief, we can do that. 86.151.194.82 (talk) 12:44, 4 March 2021 (UTC)

"This article about a form of bigotry may have been contributed to by people targeted by it" isn't the condemnation you think. 217.35.231.255 (talk) 13:26, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

Was your father actually diagnosed with Aspergers or did you just come to that conclusion to explain his abusive behavior? The notion that autistic people don’t understand that other people have minds is an extremely damaging myth, especially when people like you are perpetuating it based on your own biases and ignorance. 2605:A601:A927:1900:CDC7:989C:BE96:2D57 (talk) 05:50, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

Minor Tweak

I've included the alternative name used by FAAAS and added some references. I'll also create a redirect page of "Ongoing Traumatic Relationship Syndrome" pointing here. This is my first edit, so if anyone disagrees, let me know. Jono (talk) 20:53, 12 November 2019 (UTC)

Question

Why Cassandra? Anna Livia (talk) 23:27, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

Another reference to the trope namer, I take it. — Oxyaena ^Harass 23:30, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

So what is the direct connection between Cassandra and the syndrome?

And how come the people complaining of CADD do not discover the mismatch between what is being offered emotionally etc and what they want in such matters in the period leading up to the marriage? Anna Livia (talk) 11:36, 24 February 2020 (UTC)

It ties into their whole "nobody listens to me, woe" martyr complex. But whereas nobody listened to Cassandra because she'd been cursed, nobody listens to them because they're abusive assholes who'd rather blame their partners' actual or assumed neurology than face up to their behaviour. 81.140.168.220 (talk) 20:27, 27 March 2020 (UTC)

The other amusing/frustrating aspect of the Cassandra analogy is that seeing through bullshit and being rejected for it is very much a neurodivergent life experience. 109.154.223.219 (talk) 12:59, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

Anyone want to reclaim Cassandra Syndrome as a synonym for autism? It makes way more sense, as instead of being blatant circular reasoning (you should believe is because we have Cassandra Syndrome and thus speak the truth! We have Cassandra Syndrome because no one believes us [because we are lying], but we are telling the truth) it’s based on actual symptoms of the condition - autistic people tend to be honest by nature, but are frequently disbelieved by neurotypicals based on their body language. Also, I always hated the word “autism”, it’s basically yet another examples of neurotypicals calling autistic people selfish, so I think Cassandra Syndrome works as a good replacement based on the lived experience of autistic people. 2605:A601:A927:1900:CDC7:989C:BE96:2D57 (talk) 04:51, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

you cannot reclaim a term or phrase that was not anything to do with autism in the first place. secondly, its a dumb fucking idea. AMassiveGay (talk) 07:07, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

My first submission, seems a bit wordy

COMMENT: Flawedplan (talk) 02:57, 9 April 2020 (UTC) To emphasize the Cassandra Complex as a currently unproven disorder is a red herring. It will never be proved, since mental disorders, psychiatric disabilities and emotional syndromes don't fit a medical model. They are social constructs, voted into and out of existence based on trends and vigorous research, whether that research is clinical or academic.

COMMENT RE ORIGINS: Maxine Aston isn't an agony aunt who invented the term Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder after listening to faithless harpies, but a couples counselor who treats both partners, as a unit. In other words, she works to keep these rocky relationships afloat. She also pens workbooks for couples, including a guide specifically for the befuddled, titled What Men with Asperger Syndrome Want to Know about Women, Dating and Relationships, which as of this writing has a four-star Amazon review by 51 non-Cassandra-woo purchasers, presumably.

Yes, Aston wrote a paper on her theoretical disorder, citing "common knowledge" rather than peer reviewed articles because there is no evidence-based counseling model for mixed neurological relationships. Despite her silly nomenclature, Aston is a reputable thought leader in the emerging field of mixed neurological relationships. She is a clinician, not a researcher. To date there is only one university-backed research study published on autistic and typically-developing partners, this too is unfortunate. See: The Communication Roundabout: Intimate relationships of adults with Asperger's syndrome

SECTION ON CRITICISM:

If an autistic or alexy tries to defend themself or disprove CADD, they can be told that they simply don't have enough empathy to understand how much their lack of empathy is making their spouse suffer.

By most any measure including a simple google search, defensiveness, warding off your partner and "proving" her wrong-in-the-head is an unsupportable relational skill. As is fault-finding and blame.

If someone feels that their partner is not affectionate enough they can just ask their partner to be more affectionate...

Logically, you'd think so, right? Thus the scope of our dilemma. But the dilemma has moved out of the bedroom and onto the internet.

This is not a political issue. It's therapeutics. Slacktivists who deny the ASD partner's disability are telling us he is just another foot soldier for the Patriarchy and clinging to a characterological rather than neurological impairment. This is not how it's done. Stop helping. You are fighting a straw neurotypical.

COMMENT ON IMPACT:

The positive, pro-social impact of the pioneering Cassandra Phenomenon (which is a fading construct sure to be replaced by something with a solid research base from the academy) is in opening a dialogue. Seeing words on a page can help lovers begin to put their arms around that which they have been longing for. This is adult material. It's not easy to notice, much less articulate something vital that is missing, absent, containing nothing. Everyone talks about the doughnut, nobody talks about the hole. We name it to tame it. This is therapeutics, step one.

RE: "SELF-DIAGNOSIS"

A few verifiable psychologists who integrate the Cassandra Phenomenon or its equivalent in their treatment of neurologically-mixed couples:

The Hart Centre/Could Asperger’s Explain Your Relationship Difficulties?

Dr. Thomas Lucking/Neurodiverse Couples

Help for Couples Living With Aspergers: Cassandra Syndrome

GoodTherapy: How to Deal with Loneliness in a Relationship When One Partner is Autistic

Dr. Psych Mom: Asperger’s: When Narcissism Just Doesn’t Explain Your Partner’s Inability to Empathize Flawedplan (talk) 02:57, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

It absolutely is political when hate groups work it into their advocacy. The main problem with the narrative CADD presents is that it fails to actually consider the perspective of the autistic partner, instead just reducing them down their disorder which is how neurotypicals describe their behavior, not the autistic person’s perspective at all. This is worsened by the fact that community who identifies with CADD consistently conflates autism with narcissism and male-socialized behavior, generating myths far more damaging than the reality that mixed-neurotype relationships just sometimes don’t work out. Fortunately, the top result I’m getting for “Cassandra Autism” addresses that relational dysfunction is an emergent phenomenon from the interactions of both partners and includes the autistic perspective: https://www.connections-counselling.co.uk/blog/cassandra-phenomenon-a-systemic-perspective/ Unfortunately they still give the NT the label “Cassandra” even though the autistic partner has just as much if not more of a claim to the archetype. 2605:A601:A927:1900:CDC7:989C:BE96:2D57 (talk) 05:42, 24 May 2022 (UTC)

"COMMENT: Flawedplan (talk) 02:57, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

To emphasize the Cassandra Complex as a currently unproven disorder is a red herring. It will never be proved, since mental disorders, psychiatric disabilities and emotional syndromes don't fit a medical model. They are social constructs, voted into and out of existence based on trends and vigorous research, whether that research is clinical or academic."

All research has to be published in peer-reviewed sources in order for it to be taken seriously by other researchers. In order for something to be considered a psychiatric disorder, it has to be shown that the symptoms themselves, together with their causes actually exist. In this case, there's not even a peer-reviewed case study. The idea that mental disorders are social constructs seems like mental health denial to me, they certainly are real and can cause impairment in functioning.

"COMMENT RE ORIGINS: Maxine Aston isn't an agony aunt who invented the term Cassandra Affective Deprivation Disorder after listening to faithless harpies, but a couples counselor who treats both partners, as a unit. In other words, she works to keep these rocky relationships afloat. She also pens workbooks for couples, including a guide specifically for the befuddled, titled What Men with Asperger Syndrome Want to Know about Women, Dating and Relationships, which as of this writing has a four-star Amazon review by 51 non-Cassandra-woo purchasers, presumably."

Honey, she has never published a single peer-reviewed paper about her supposed disorder and it is not accepted as a disorder by any psychiatric body or organisation. By that logic, anybody can make up their own disorder and then claim to expert on their made up fake disorder. I've seen a lot pseudoscience books on amazon get good reviews, that doesn't make it good science.

"Yes, Aston wrote a paper on her theoretical disorder, citing "common knowledge" rather than peer reviewed articles because there is no evidence-based counseling model for mixed neurological relationships. Despite her silly nomenclature, Aston is a reputable thought leader in the emerging field of mixed neurological relationships. She is a clinician, not a researcher. To date there is only one university-backed research study published on autistic and typically-developing partners, this too is unfortunate. See:

The Communication Roundabout: Intimate relationships of adults with Asperger's syndrome"

Let me explain to you how research generally works. If there is no current model, then you collect data and develop one. More importantly, you publish it in a peer-reviewed journal so that other researchers can read and even replicate your results. Maxine Aston has done none of this, plus that "paper" is mostly only on her website, it has never been published in any peer-reviewed journal. "Common sense" is not a valid source of data, at most it could be used to develop a hypothesis but then that has to be tested before it becomes excepted as fact. That's how all scientific research works.

"If someone feels that their partner is not affectionate enough they can just ask their partner to be more affectionate...

Logically, you'd think so, right? Thus the scope of our dilemma. But the dilemma has moved out of the bedroom and onto the internet.

This is not a political issue. It's therapeutics. Slacktivists who deny the ASD partner's disability are telling us he is just another foot soldier for the Patriarchy and clinging to a characterological rather than neurological impairment. This is not how it's done. Stop helping. You are fighting a straw neurotypical."

Do you know what a strawman is? Please tell us where this article misrepresents your views and then we can deal with it. So far, all you've done is try to defend the position attacked by the article, rather than tell us how it's misrepresented. Nobody and nothing in the article denies that the ASD partner has a disability.

"SECTION ON CRITICISM:

If an autistic or alexy tries to defend themself or disprove CADD, they can be told that they simply don't have enough empathy to understand how much their lack of empathy is making their spouse suffer.

By most any measure including a simple google search, defensiveness, warding off your partner and "proving" her wrong-in-the-head is an unsupportable relational skill. As is fault-finding and blame. "

That is not what's being said in the article. Read the "reality" section at the end.

"COMMENT ON IMPACT:

The positive, pro-social impact of the pioneering Cassandra Phenomenon (which is a fading construct sure to be replaced by something with a solid research base from the academy) is in opening a dialogue. Seeing words on a page can help lovers begin to put their arms around that which they have been longing for. This is adult material. It's not easy to notice, much less articulate something vital that is missing, absent, containing nothing. Everyone talks about the doughnut, nobody talks about the hole. We name it to tame it. This is therapeutics, step one. "

Yes, so that you can wallow in your echo chambers, start hating on ASD people and become more and more extreme in your views. Look, if you're having problems in your relationship then mischaracterising the issues is not helping you either. Not only does it create stigma, since it perpetuates the idea that AS people have no empathy etc. but on the other side, it might also lead some NT partners to excuse unacceptable or abusive behaviour. In reality, AS might cause communication difficulties in a relationship but that's how it's being characterised by the whole CADD thing.

"RE: "SELF-DIAGNOSIS"

A few verifiable psychologists who integrate the Cassandra Phenomenon or its equivalent in their treatment of neurologically-mixed couples:

The Hart Centre/Could Asperger’s Explain Your Relationship Difficulties?

Dr. Thomas Lucking/Neurodiverse Couples

Help for Couples Living With Aspergers: Cassandra Syndrome

GoodTherapy: How to Deal with Loneliness in a Relationship When One Partner is Autistic

Dr. Psych Mom: Asperger’s: When Narcissism Just Doesn’t Explain Your Partner’s Inability to Empathize Flawedplan (talk) 02:57, 9 April 2020 (UTC)"

You can link to as many blogposts and opinion pieces as you like, it still doesn't change the fact that there is no peer-reviewed research supporting the CADD as a psychiatric diagnosis. It is not supported by any mainstream psychiatric or psychological organisation. --Jono (talk) 21:47, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

This article is a perfect example of what people with "Cassandra Syndrome" are talking about

This article denies their feelings and suggests they are stupid, delusional or part of a hate group. The syndrome is about others not believing the Cassandra when they describe their partner's behavior. To suggest that describing the feeling of being disbelieved is "hate" is absurd and most definitely not rational. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2603:7000:2703:74:5142:170b:1d47:5199 / talk / contribs}

One problem - the name of the syndrome seems a tad incoherent/incomprehensible - and the 'meaning' seems to be that 'one, and only one, person in the (non-abusive) relationship is responsible for all the problems arising in the relationship - the other is totally 'innocent.' If there was an emphasis on 'couples/relationship counselling and help' to work out patterns of activity that enable both sides to interact better' there would be a more positive response. Anna Livia (talk) 19:31, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Most sources are either blogs or stuff like Psychology Today. We've deleted most articles written by user QuietLuna one year ago. Maybe we should delete this one as well. GeeJayK (talk) 20:55, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

No dude. This is an important topic. I was considering expanding it like I did for the FAAAS page but there are better sources out there, if you look at that article, you'll find that there's a connection:

Families_of_Adults_Afflicted_with_Asperger’s_Syndrome

Also, only 3 articles started by QuietLuna are actually removed while most of her articles regarding autism rights advocacy are still valid and are still available on the site. This one should not be removed simply because nobody else has yet been able to expand on it, it's still in stub class. The comment from the unsigned OP above is expected. Supporters of CADD have been trying to edit this article ever since it was first created, though surprisingly, it as not happened as often to the FAAAS article. Jono (talk) 12:53, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Even worse than that, the "syndrome" gives people the excuse to abuse an ASD partner while blaming it on the victims disability. --Jono (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

Uh huh, and where are the peer-reviewed papers about it? Aston, who coined the term wrote a few books but not a single paper in a peer-reviewed journal and nobody else has either. Therefore, the entire concept is pseudoscience. --Jono (talk) 20:44, 23 July 2022 (UTC)