Talk:French Revolution

	This French politics related article has been awarded BRONZE status for quality. It's getting there, but could be better with improvement. See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.

On Mission?

It was asked in the comment line of an edit if this was on mission. I'm assuming the editor meant the entire article. So I thought I'd open up the discussions and see what people think. Personally, I think it has serious potential to be on mission, as it was in many ways, a "rational" (in the philosophical sense, not the 'rationality is logic' sense) response to wrongful government. But I think we can focus it more, really bring that side of the article out - assuming we care about missionality.--GodotWhen I graduated, Cognative Science of Religion didn't even exist! now it's everywhere 14:57, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

I'd say it could also be on-mission from a conspiracy theory perspective, given the vast literature (both contemporary and modern) claiming that the revolution was some kind of masonic conspiracy. — Unsigned, by: ORavenhurst / talk^{Do You Believe That?} 15:01, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Anti-jacobin bias.

I have the problem with this article, and that problem is that this article is far too anti-jacobin and makes zero (0) mention of the fact that the Jacobins abolished slavery. A somebody. (talk) 18:30, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

The Logic of the Guillotine was overwhelmingly used to punish the poor, not those who were the nominal targets of the Jacobins (the aristocracy). Carthage (talk) 18:34, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I dunno man, I kinda hate the catholic church, slavery, monarchy, while also loving democracy, which the french revolution undoubtedly gave to europe. A somebody. (talk) 18:35, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Lincoln abolished slavery. He also executed dozens of Sioux warriors and enabled settler colonialism in the West with the Homestead Act. You can have both good and bad aspects to something. Politics isn't a zero-sum game. Carthage (talk) 18:39, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Yes that was bad, but the article still makes zero (0) mention of the fact that they abolished slavery, and the Jacobins were an overwhelming good force for france. And besides the Ancien Régime was far, far, FAR worse. A somebody. (talk) 18:42, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

I don't think the napoleon article mentions that he brought back slavery either. A somebody. (talk) 18:44, 18 July 2023 (UTC)

Anti-Jacobin bias (again)

The article is still too heavily biased against the Jacobins. A somebody. (talk) 22:54, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You gotta stop with the edit warring to whitewash a profoundly brutal regime. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:54, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You know what was even more brutal? The Ancien Régime, and besides I like having democracy. A somebody. (talk) 22:56, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Okay, so the guys before were bad too. Doesn’t mean the Jacobins didn’t kill hundreds of thousands. The facts tend to be biased against bad regimes. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:57, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Whitewash aside, the edits were of extremely poor quality too, almost vandalism-tier. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 22:58, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I like it when slavery is abolished, and the article still does not mention that fact. A somebody. (talk) 22:59, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

So, based Jacobins? Arcadium Trancefer (talk) 23:01, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The Jacobins were always based (on republicanism and secularism) A somebody. (talk) 23:02, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Removing ableist language and accurately describing the revolt in the Vendée as a counterrevolution doesn't equate to whitewashing. Wikipedia calls it a counterrevolution ([1]). That being said, yeah the violent crushing of the Vendée revolt was an example of revolutionary terror (almost as if terror is a political tactic used to crush dissent a la the violent oppression of the Loyalists during the American Revolution). Also Robbespiere was a historical liberal, remember at this time liberalism was an extremist ideology that advocated for the violent overthrow of feudalism. I disagree that this is whitewashing. Just call him a liberal dictator, historically speaking that's not an oxymoron. Napoleon was also a liberal dictator, just not a revolutionary one. Carthage (talk) 23:10, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Abolishing slavery was great, and if you had stuck to adding that, we would’ve been fine. It’s the whitewashing of the massacres that got your edits reverted. (Also lol at “ableist language”) Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 23:11, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The Terror was mainly used upon those who were ultimately counter-revolutionary, sure there were a few revolutionaries who were executed in The Terror but they were in the minority compared to the vast majority of counter-revolutionaries executed. ^{— Unsigned, by: A. somebody / talk / contribs}

Says the guy who hurls out ableist slurs like they're candy on a regular basis. Also, A. somebody, yeah no the vast majority of people executed in the Terror were peasants and the poor. This is whitewashing. Calling the Revolt in the Vendée what it properly was (a counterrevolution) is not. Carthage (talk) 23:18, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The poor can be counter-revolutionaries too you know. You think the average Klansman is very rich? A somebody. (talk) 23:20, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Is chopping down a tree worthy of being literally executed? Carthage (talk) 23:23, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Is being a heretic and blasphemer worthy of being executed? A somebody. (talk) 23:25, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Except that, IIRC at least, a boy who chopped down a tree was literally sent to the guillotine. Did he deserve that? Carthage (talk) 23:31, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

The French Penal Code of 1791 abolished the death penalty for heresy, blasphemy and sodomy, also, do you have any sources at all for that? A somebody. (talk) 23:33, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You're a socialist, right? CrimethInc released a piece titled "Against the Logic of the Guillotine". I recommend you (and anybody else interested in an anti-revolutionary terror perspective from the so-called extremist left) give it a read. Also as for sources, I specified "IIRC" for a reason. Carthage (talk) 23:37, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I am to the left of the center. Also I don't take anarchists too seriously. A somebody. (talk) 23:38, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

You're left of center and you're whitewashing the actions of a brutal dictatorship? Bullshit. Also as for "not taking anarchists too seriously" that's a blatant handwave if I've ever seen one. When the so-called violent anarchists are arguing that maybe pointless slaughter isn't necessary to enact positive social change you should seriously reconsider your views. Carthage (talk) 23:40, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

I found anarchism in general to be silly after I heard after the glasses argument against it. Also I like democracy and democracy was brought to europe via the french revolution. A somebody. (talk) 23:42, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

That you found an argument to be personally convincing isn't an argument against the position that pointless slaughter isn't necessary to achieve positive social change. As is the fact that the French Revolution brought vaguely-defined democracy to Europe. So what? I'm not disagreeing with you that the revolt in the Vendée was counterrevolutionary, or that Robbespiere was a liberal. Both of those things are true. What I'm disagreeing with you on is the pointless slaughter of civilians as being anything but pointlessly stupid, cruel, and counterproductive to revolutionary efforts. Carthage (talk) 23:47, 31 July 2023 (UTC)

Fix your fucking article.

I still yet to see any mention of the jacobins abolishing slavery, the death penalty for homosexuals, among establishing the basis for future european democratic republics. A somebody. (talk) 18:42, 1 September 2023 (UTC)

Attempted additions by A somebody

No, we're not adding a fucking Amazon shop page as a citation. And I'm also not inclined to allow someone who thinks rule by the guillotine was a good thing to edit this article at all, especially after this user's meltdown over the issue last year. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 21:28, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I readded part of it but left out the Robespierre whitewashing bit. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 21:37, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

@DuceMoosolini, the content is mine, and you claimed you were fine with it a few months ago. I am in no way connected to User:A somebody. And it isn't "Robespierre apologia", it's mainstream newspapers, mainstream historians, you can't ignore it because you can't read it. Also, I'm sorry for not knowing how to format, I will try better next time, if you would be so nice to lift the protection. (A somebody did apparently add the content again, though this has nothing to do with me). One of those "apologetics" of Robespierre is even in the Académie Française (though that really doesn't mean much). New world (talk) 21:53, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Ah, sorry, must've gotten you guys mixed up at some point. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:04, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

Not big deal, thanks for unprotecting. New world (talk) 22:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

So I readded the section, although I'd like to see the Amazon shop pages changed to a more direct link. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:07, 14 July 2024 (UTC)

I've removed them, I will replace them with google books. New world (talk) 22:11, 14 July 2024 (UTC)