Talk:Honor killings

	This Islam related article has been assessed as SIGNIFICANTLY PROBLEMATIC in one or more ways. See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.
This article requires attention for the following reason(s): Contains a lot of unnecessary racism towards Middle Eastern cultures Contains a lot of uncited material Contains plenty of editorializing that doesn't add to the quality of the article.

Singular article

Might want to move this to the "singular" title? ħuman 20:23, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Take a look

This discussion was moved here from User talk:Human.

Hey, would you take a look at this? I haven't linked anything to it yet, cause I'm not sure of the line I'm walking or the tone. Oddly, the more I read about this, the more angry i've become at Islam in just 2 days. Yet at the same time, I don't want to sound like i think all of Islam thinks this way. Just see if you think it's challenging enough, not challenging at all, too apologetic, too weaslie, not weaslie enough. I've not really written anything even remotely controversial on a wiki before, so I wanted a second look. Honor killings--En attendant Godot_{"«I don't think in any language. I think in images. V.Nabokov»} 19:44, 17 March 2009 (EDT)--En attendant Godot_{"«I don't think in any language. I think in images. V.Nabokov»} 19:44, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

It looks like a good start, thanks for the heads up. Needs a little copyediting for MoS things, no big deal. Who is "name" on NPR, by the way? Also, domestic violence is not routinely and completely frowned upon... Anyway, it's certainly "on mission", and also, anytime you find yourself wanting to critique Islam heavily, usually the modifier "fundamentalist" is a fair way to show we aren't talking about moderates, etc. And let's face it, fund. Islam really is worse than fund. Xtianity these days. ħuman 20:20, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Opps, "name" is "goo look this up" that I forgot to look up. what got me onto this topic, in fact, was a discussion on NPR about the fact that the beheading recently, was "just domestic violence". I don't buy that, actually, even though I understand that Islam has a bad rap, and everyone runs and says "oh, violence. must be an honor killing". I really think even moderate Islam is a problem here, cause only the most extremely progressive leaders are calling the communities out. It's like you see with xians "well, I don't agree that it's ok to pick on girls getting an abortion, but as a Christian, it's not my place to tell other christians how to live." OH HELL YES IT IS. ;-)--En attendant Godot_{"«I don't think in any language. I think in images. V.Nabokov»} 20:39, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Well, really, it's no one's place to "tell other[s] ... how to live", but I know what you mean. Anyway, that's why we distinguish, use the modifier of your choice? When enough decent people stand up against a horror, it at least makes defining the real monsters easier as a specific sub-group. Anyway, we should take further discussion to the talk page there so it doesn't get lost in an archive here... in fact, I'll try copying this over there using those fandangled templates someone made. ħuman 20:44, 17 March 2009 (EDT)

Category Hinduism?

I removed the category with the comment "Honor killing is not supported by any Hindu text or authority or guru, and is not practicised in Hinduism".

It was reverted but why?

Is there any factual evidence that honor killing is part of Hinduism, or is it a case of linking all non-Christian religions with honor killing even without fact?--Stargazer (talk) 19:09, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Honor killing is indeed practiced in some communities. I have added text with references to that effect. Bongolian (talk) 20:27, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the Chesler article. But I don't understand why you are still citing the article about Nirupama Pathak, even though later news reports reported that it was not a honor killing. --Stargazer (talk) 21:43, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

I have now deleted the Pathak reference. Bongolian (talk) 22:31, 13 October 2017 (UTC)

Gigantic essays in note sections

Adding personal opinions as "notes" with no corresponding citation to back them up doesn't add to the quality of the article IMO. I am tempted to remove them. Carthage (talk) 01:40, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

The intention behind the mini-essays was to showcase that honor killings appear to be more of a Middle Eastern cultural thing than an Abrahamic religion thing. I don't think the Christianization of Europe led to a statistically significant increase in honor killings or violence against women (I don't know if honor killings were a thing that happened much in pre-Christian European cultures, but I haven't heard of it happening much in Europe compared to the Middle East, even after Christianity took over). Now, granted, honor killings do appear to happen with some regularity in immigrant Muslim communities, and I can see them ramping up in America if the fundies get their way (since fundies put a lot of emphasis on their Middle Eastern source material), but I suspect that honor killings are more of a Middle Eastern thing than an Abrahamic thing (but the Abrahamic religions shouldn't be let off the hook entirely). --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Essayspace exists for a reason. And you should be mindful of bias effects including, obviously, the false equivalency between correlation and causation, and the fact that you still haven't included citations. Carthage (talk) 18:49, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

And besides, I don’t see any corresponding excessive effort to split hairs when it comes to, say, Christian fundamentalists bombing abortion clinics. While I’ll admit that neither that nor this is 100% the fault of the monotheisms, it doesn’t make sense to give Islam this much benefit of the doubt. I ain’t reading allat. Methinks we should either blank those pedantic notes, or move each to their own essay with “several editors of Honor killings” in the essay template’s subtitle argument. No bronze-aged religious belief should be above serious criticism on this wiki. --Goatspeed. _{Fossil evidence of my evolution}CircularRasoning^{See what I've been messing around with} 19:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Christianity isn't racialized in the West the same way Islam is. So if you're going to add criticism, I would be mindful of how you word said criticism in a way that doesn't contribute to continued marginalization of Muslims in the West. I would also recommend actually making sure what you're writing is accurate and can stand up to scrutiny. There is definitely a major problem of people "criticizing" Islam on here without actually knowing shit about it. That doesn't make for a very effective counter-apologetics project. Carthage (talk) 19:07, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I see your point, but that doesn’t warrant the freaking huge editorializing essays of footnotes. And besides, several of our articles are critical of the religion (heck we even have an annotated Qu’ran), as well as of European countries’ rose-tinted glasses and how they allow the children of migrants to become even more radical than average folks in their parents’ countries, rather like those Greek and Turk nationalists arguing online over which country’s corrupt leader is more glorious from their respective apartments in Germany, and then casting absentee votes to make things worse for those back home (Greeks and Turks in their own countries are increasingly friends). Now, does this justify scapegoating and dehumanizing all Muslims in the west? Of course not, heck one of my best friends is Muslim and he’s a valid straight-ally to my brother and I who are both bisexual. --Goatspeed. _{Fossil evidence of my evolution}CircularRasoning^{See what I've been messing around with} 19:19, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

Fair enough, I’m going off hearsay at the moment, and that hearsay may be biased. What I'm saying is that honor killings appear to have been consistently less common in Europe and the Americas than in the Middle East. If the Abrahamic religions were the sole root cultural influence that led to honor killings, I doubt that this discrepancy would exist. As the article itself notes, honor killings in Europe — and in Christian communities specifically — aren't completely unheard of, but overall, Europe and the Americas seem to have a better track record of not treating women like cattle to be killed on a whim or at the first sign of disobedience than Middle Easterners. I won't pretend to have any idea whether this discrepancy is due to differences in European and Middle Eastern culture, differences in Christian and Islamic religious practices, differences in European and Middle Eastern economic conditions, some combination of those things, or other factors entirely. I'm just noting a statistical trend — that honor killings appear to happen less often in Europe and the United States than in the Middle East and India — and noting the implication that the source of the phenomenon can't be attributed to "Abrahamic religions don't respect women" quite as strongly as the opening paragraphs of our article imply. --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

What about historically? Carthage (talk) 19:26, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

For the article, I agree. I take issue with the gigantic essays since a) they are uncited and b) drag the quality of the article down. As for how European countries allow for radicalization... have you considered that Salafis recruit from disaffected and marginalized communities? (Meijer, Roel (ed.) (2009). Global Salafism: Islam's New Religious Movement. C Hurst & Co Publishers Ltd). If you don't want a radicalization problem, stop othering migrant communities. Carthage (talk) 19:25, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ The mini-essays here are excessive and inappropriate, and the distract from the rest of the article. I think that this content should be moved elsewhere and removed from this article. —cosmikdebris ^talk stalk 19:33, 29 November 2023 (UTC)

I am referring to a historical perspective. I can’t think of many instances of honor killings in Europe. --Luigifan18 (talk) 19:41, 29 November 2023 (UTC)