Talk:Problem of evil

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Definition of "evil".

The article, quite rightly, points out that the "problem of evil" argument depends on which god or gods it is being used against, and defines the god involved as being both omnipotent and omnibenevolent.

But I'm wondering if, in addition to defining the god, we need to define "evil" as well. While all words have multiple meanings which tend to change with context, the word "evil", for me, really exists in a religious context. As an atheist I see a contrast between "good and bad" rather between "good and evil".

It could be argued that "Everyone knows what evil is" - but the same argument is sometimes proposed about god. Yet we have seen it is necessary to define it very clearly in the article.Hubert (talk) 13:42, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

A good definition of evil in this context is "suffering" imo. — Oxyaena ^Harass 13:55, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

OK. That's pretty good. It's a shame it can't be reformulated as a "problem of suffering" really. Because, as an atheist, I believe in neither god (not a typo) nor "evil" (in the religious sense ). The idea that one thing I do not believe exists being disproved by the alleged existence of another thing I do not necessarily believe exists starts to get a little bit hypothetical. ^{— Unsigned, by: Hubert / talk / contribs}

There is no direct connection between 'evil' and 'suffering' - you may suffer because your car is not working and you just missed the bus and it is hailing, but there is no evil in the situation.

To what extent is 'evil a state of mind' - doing things which you know to be wrong and which cause harm to others/allowing a situation where others experience suffering to persist and doing nothing about it or even encouraging it? (Simplistic examples but nothing wrong with them for that.) Anna Livia (talk) 11:12, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

@Anna Livia I've always interpreted the "evil" in the "Problem of Evil" to mean "suffering" since people typically include cancer in that, even though cancer is naturally occurring and not artificial. I agree that it's good to include a dividing line, but the things you mentioned above are typically called "nuisances" and aren't what come to mind when most people think of "suffering." — Oxyaena ^Harass 22:46, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

But 'evil' and 'suffering' are two different things - Hitler and 'the other usual suspects' are/were evil. Anna Livia (talk) 22:59, 27 May 2019 (UTC)

@Hubert, I agree with @Oxyaena. In the PoE, "evil" means "suffering". Remember, the PoE is a very targetted argument which tries to prove by contradiction that God, as typically envisioned by Christians, does not exist (although, it could be used in an attempt to disprove the existence of any omnipotent, omni-benevolent entity) The argument happens to be popularly known as "The Problem of Evil" but that is just semantics. --Bertrc (talk) 20:15, 30 May 2019 (UTC)

Perhaps the answer to the problem of evil

... is that we are asking the wrong question.

Is it that evil is more a process, activity or state of mind etc than 'an actual thing of itself'? Anna Livia (talk) 15:04, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Divine Evil

I recently came across this section on David Lewis's philosophy of religion, https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/david-lewis/#7.4, which I think provides an interesting perspective on the problem of evil. The last paragraph of section 7.4 concerning Lewis's paper "Divine Evil" is particularly interesting: "Lewis suggests that proponents of the problem of evil should not focus on what God fails to prevent, but on what God does." Lewis spotlights how in orthodox Christianity and Islam, God is portrayed as perpetrating great evil against sinners, in the form of extreme punishments in the afterlife. Lewis urges that a God who exacts these punishments would be so evil that we should not only reject Him, but we may regard those who endorse the divine punishments as somewhat culpable of divine evil.

Here is an entity that knowingly allows evil to occur—but no, this isn't enough for him—he also actively carries out infernal punishments, indiscriminately; and all the while, he remains convinced that he isn't a hypocrite—no! I am divine! and you should count yourself lucky that you get to grovel at my feet. Theists are certainly an odd bunch, even by the delusional communities' standards, they simply cannot accept that the nonentity they obsequiously fawn over ... has a heart of obsidian.—Leucippus^Talk 21:40, 15 May 2021 (UTC)

I am not Muslim, so I do not want to speak for them, but, personally, I do not think you or David Lewis have a completely accurate understanding of Christian teachings. --Bertrc (talk) 01:05, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

1) First, you should understand the Christian view of what you are referring to as "punishment", aka "damnation". In most Christian denominations, the afterlife "punishment" you refer to is not pitchforks and flames; the ultimate "punishment" is true separation from God. Think back to a time that you felt utterly devastated -- I am talking about weeping, borderline (or actually) slitting-your-wrists wrecked kind of despair -- If you honestly explore why you were/are in such a state, I think you will find that it is because something has either been taken away from you or lost by you; or that something is in danger of being taken away or lost. That "something" is probably something you largely base your identity on; or define your self worth by; or look to for your true sense of joy or security. When a foundation of your life crumbles, your life falls apart. Christians largely believe that even in those times, God is still there supporting you. Since any non-divine foundation will ultimately crumble under the weight we place on it, the ultimate suffering would be to not even have God's support. I would take the pain of ten drawn out kidney stones over that pain of despair. --Bertrc (talk) 01:05, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

2) Second, you should know that, in the Christian belief, separation from God is allowed, rather than inflicted. That is the central point of the Gospel -- Like followers of most religions, Christians do believe that there is a gulf between the natural and the supernatural. Unlike religions, however, Christianity does not believe there is a set of practices and/or actions which can allow us to bridge that gap and thus reach the "salvation" of the supernatural. Instead, Christianity tells us that God incarnated one of the persons of God, in the form of Jesus, in order to build that bridge for us; we can now choose to cross over. That being said, many of us believe we haven't done enough bad things to require God's forgiveness of our debts or maybe we believe we have done enough to make up for those bad things; perhaps we think we are in a better position to judge God than God is to judge us. Regardless of the reason, if we truly do not want to come face to face with God's holiness and to see our full sinfulness, and if we really do not want God's cleansing love and forgiveness, then God is not going to rewrite our beings and force us to do so. Like a good parent, God does not force us to be with Her/Him. --Bertrc (talk) 01:05, 25 June 2021 (UTC)

Logical Problem Problem

The Logical Problem section is of poor quality, and apparently has been for quite some time. I propose, minimally, reinstating the more fleshed out argument that was there before, and removing the question-begging one there now, if there are no objections. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 ^talk 00:55, 5 February 2022 (UTC)

I editted the section, adding what I believe are a few assumptions made in the propositions and conclusions. --Bertrc (talk) 18:57, 22 March 2022 (UTC)

In polytheism

Is the Problem of Evil problematic too in polytheistic systems, where deities are not all-powerful, sometimes at least seen as morally flawed and imperfect, and sometimes too there's some sort of Fate even gods are subjected to?. As per the Euthyphro dilemma, they seem to be more resilient to such kind of conundrums. Panzerfaust (talk) 07:00, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

This is the main reason I don't like "problem of evil" argument. It only works if you postulate an unequivocally "good" god, and if you have some standard for measuring "good". If you postulate a morally ambivalent or evil god - or one who personally defines morality - the argument becomes irrelevant.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 07:23, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, and add also omnibenevolence for such entity. It seems whoever decided to add such attribute and others alike to the Judeo-Christian God did not think on the implications. Same those who parrot them without caring for the same. Panzerfaust (talk) 07:39, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

It seems to me that true omni-anything always seems to lead you into logical contradictions. The POE is just one example of these. But, in fact, Christians (who actually think about it) don't really go for the omni stuff. It's "maxi" instead - that is to say, as close as you can get to "omni" without triggering the logical contradictions.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 09:05, 13 June 2023 (UTC)

Yah, Omni-anything always has paradoxes within our universe. If you take a polytheistic religion where they are not omni-whatever, this argument cannot be used to disprove their existence. P.S. I am a Christian who thinks about this a lot and I do go for it! ;-) For me, the transformative explanation (paralleled to experiences in real life where I have reached some good outcome, but do not wish I had reached it without having the trials to get there, effectively, after the fact, transforming those trials that I hated while I was in the midst of experiencing them) resolves it. Basically, the argument makes the assumption --Bertrc (talk) 18:21, 2 June 2024 (UTC)