Talk:Shinzō Abe

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We might want to prepare ourselves for feasibly putting a quota on how many individuals can edit this page in the event of augmented vandalization--April ^Chat? 11:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Why was the fascist category removed?

Abe was a pretty cut and dried case of a neofascist. Vee (talk) 15:24, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

He was a right-wing nationalist, but it's less clear that he was a fascist. As the article says, he failed to foster a cult of personality. Economically, his policies weren't typical of Mussolini-type fascism, and were more free-market-oriented. And while his government was anti-immigrant and not terribly liberal, was it especially oppressive to the population? Make a proper case that he's a fascist. --Annanoon (talk) 16:34, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

You don't have to exhibit all the 14 stages and characteristics of fascism to be a fascist. Trump certainly didn't (not for lack of trying, of course). Perhaps a better category would be to consider him "alt-lite"? Also, Evola was a fascist, but he despised the demagoguery typical of fascist politics. Could you make the case that Evola wasn't a fascist with that in mind? Vee (talk) 16:39, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Another category to consider is Category:Para-fascists. It was used before the change to Fascists on this article. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 18:02, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

So does anyone object to me adding said category to this article? Vee (talk) 18:05, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

The little technicality here is that it seems like the pol sci guys tend to see a distinction between the type of nationalist system going on in Japan post-Meiji Restoration and the European fascists, with the label for the former being "Shōwa Statism". It seems like most of what you find on the far right in Japan is of this variety. I tried to Google exactly why Shōwa statism wouldn't be a form of fascism (seems like on the surface it fits most of the "14 points of fascism" to a tee), and came up with no good explanation. But I guess some people out there thinks there is enough of a difference to make it a separate category...

With this caveat, I think the para-fascist category is good. Shinzo Abe is connected to some arguably actual pro-Imperial Japan organizations (Nippon Kaigi) but, as noted, he really didn't go full-blown Hitler / Mussolini in either reverting to authoritarianism or a state-capitalist economy. 35.140.177.2 (talk) 18:32, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

I added the category, but just to note, Trump also has ties to fascist organizations, but he didn't go "full-blown Hitler" either. Although, as I noted above, that's not for lack of trying. (Also, I'm pretty sure Trump has the "fascist" category added to his article.) Vee (talk) 18:35, 10 October 2022 (UTC)

Even Donald Trump did not belong to a far-right organization at the level of Nippon Kaigi. If Shinzo Abe is not a fascist, why is Donald Trump a fascist? Abe Creed was really a champion of the Japanese Empire and is no different than Neo-Nazi. Umaru16 (talk) 15:08, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

Koreans think Abe is far more far-right than Trump. There is a controversy that Trump sympathized with Neo-Nazi, but he did not introduce Nazism or Shōwa Statism to the United States. Although there is controversy over whether Shōwa Statism is fascism, Abe supported that very thing.Umaru16 (talk) 15:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

In the first place, Donald Trump is a para-fascist, not a classical fascist. More mainstream views are that he is more of an authoritarian populist than a fascist at all. Why not apply the standard of criticizing Western rightists to Japan? Japan's economic power is advanced, Japan is as rich as Western countries, and is no less responsible for imperialism than Britain and France

Abe's attacks on the media, authoritarian governance, racism, history revisionism, nationalism, etc. were more extreme than Donald Trump. Even that was only to solve the problem because Japan suffers from low birth rates. Do you know how much Abe bullied South Korea and Koreans? Umaru16 (talk) 15:20, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

My position is simple. If Abe's creed cannot be classified as a fascist, Donald Trump, who was less oppressive than Abe, is of course not a fascist. Can rationalwiki users agree with this? Umaru16 (talk) 15:25, 12 October 2022 (UTC)

what has abe done that's totalitarian? based on the definitions of "fascism" found in this wiki, that seems to be the litmus test. japan still ranks pretty high on the democracy index (though that itself might not be the best metric). i think he belongs under the "para-fascists" category because despite admiring japans fascist past, he still presided over a democratic country. The G (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

i made the edits accordingly, but i reversed them after finding that the changes would've been contentious. i want to reach consensus, first. what does everyone think about my suggestion? The G (talk) 00:29, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Opposing. Abe suppressed Japan's freedom of speech, constantly overlooked past totalitarianism, and unjustified trade retaliation for the South Korean government and court's legitimate demands to compensate victims in colonial times. I don't understand some liberal Americans who call Trump a fascist and don't label Abe the same. Umaru16 (talk) 08:56, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

In South Korea, Abe was always perceived as a far-right or pseudo-fascist, regardless of his political stance, but Trump rarely called him a far-right or fascist until the 2021 congressional riots. Abe constantly threatened peace on the Korean Peninsula. On the other hand, because Trump met and held talks with the North Korean leaders, Moon Jung-in and many other liberal politicians in the South evaluated Trump's foreign policy on North Korea favorably. I rather think Abe is a far-right fascist than Trump. I don't think Donald Trump is a fascist. At the same time, I think Shinzo Abe is a fascist. I believe that if the category of fascists cannot be used in the Shinzo Abe article, then the category should not be used in the Donald Trump article. American Alt-right has nothing to do with traditional German Nazism, just far-right Internet trolls, but Nippon Kaigi and Japanese alt-right is really rooted in Shōwa Statism. (I think Shōwa Statism is fascism.) Do you know how serious racism against Koreans is in Japan and Abe has used it politically? You shouldn't think about how Trump treats black people. It's a lot more terrible than that. More things happen in Japan than you can imagine. If Donald Trump should be classified as a fascist, Shinzo Abe should be classified more as a fascist. (In Japan, perhaps nothing like the 2021 U.S. Congressional Riots will happen. But that is because Japan itself has its own ultraconservative culture that does not like to stand out.) Umaru16 (talk) 09:13, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

We must remember that Donald Trump's reign was a free country, not a totalitarian state. I wonder if you're making the same argument in the Donald Trump article as you are now. If Abe is not a fascist academically in the first place, Trump is not a fascist either. Very few scholars call Trump a fascist, and most do not recognize him as a fascist. I tried to remove the fascist category from the Donald Trump article 2 times. The edits were all restored by other users. But why don't you allow me to add fascist categories in the Shinzo Abe article? Japanese liberals and socialists call him a fascist. And South Koreans, including most conservatives, call him a fascist. You don't even know that Abe said, "Everyone! We Must Bring Back Japan!" It seems that you don't have much information about Northeast Asia. Umaru16 (talk) 09:26, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Donald Trump has never openly defended the Nazis. On the other hand, Shinzo Abe openly praises the Japanese Empire. Taro Aso, Abe's eternal friend and former prime minister, is a neo-Nazi defending Hitler. I rather see Donald Trump as a "para-fascist", and Shinzo Abe as a "fascist". Donald Trump has at least not tried to reactively revise the Constitution. Honestly, was Donald Trump trying to go back 100 years? Shinzo Abe tried to do that. America's far-rights are proud of their constitution (based on classical liberalism), but Japan's far-rights are ashamed that their constitution created after the war is too liberal and want to scrap it. Abe is much more reactionary than Trump. Umaru16 (talk) 23:22, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Let's say we're going back to the 1930s on a time machine. Shinzo Abe is more of a classic fascist than Donald Trump. I think the fascists of the 1930s would regard even Donald Trump as a liberal, but they would regard Shinzo Abe as their friend. Trumpists don't have an 'orientation', but Nippon Kaigi has a clear 'orientation' to return to Japanese fascism. Umaru16 (talk) 07:35, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Like I noted months earlier, Trump presided over a democratic country and we still consider him to be a fascist. Vee (talk) 13:40, 6 February 2023 (UTC)