Talk:Steven Salaita

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First name[edit]

Is his name Stephen or Steven? If it is Steven, then move the page to that title.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 21:33, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

By now you have seen the result... Alec Sanderson (talk) 22:02, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I saw it too late (it was apparently moved while I was editing it >_>).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 22:03, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Evphen Stephven Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Mission?[edit]

How is this obscure individual within our mission? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:01, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Alleged infringement of academic freedom because of political he took?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 23:03, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Isn't that stretching it? I mean even on WP it would probably be questioned whether this individual is noteworthy Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:05, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
(СУКА БЛЯДЬ edit conflict) Well, you asked me about the motive Mona may have to write an article about him and here is one, at least according to the stuff written in the article.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 23:08, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
So what's your argument? That he's not missional or that he's not notable enough? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 23:08, 20 August 42015 AQD (UTC)
It is not within our mission and as an aside I doubt he would be notable enough for WP... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:12, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Well, then thisWikipedia might interest you. I'm also not sure how he's not missional. Both Zionism and anti-semitism are missional, no? 142.124.55.236 (talk) 23:14, 20 August 42015 AQD (UTC)
Damn you English Wikipedia and your overly broad criteria of notability! And as to whether this bloke is missional or not... Well one guy who tweets major BS and gets fired / does not get a job does not and should not be within our scope. Will we soon have an article on some bloke who was fired for posting unkind words about refugees? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:23, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I dunno about fired, but a ban for being overly dismissive regarding the deaths of Palestinian civilians might not be too farfetched. ;) 142.124.55.236 (talk) 23:26, 20 August 42015 AQD (UTC)
Who bans whom? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

"obscene carnage"[edit]

Okay, now we are down to the point where single words become contentious... Should we call what happened in the latest Gaza-war "obscene carnage" in my humble opinion there is no reason for that other than to make Steven whatshisface look good. And there is imho no justification for that. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:39, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I have to disagree, your repeated whitewashing is a rather pertinent sign that your opinion is not humble. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 23:41, 20 August 42015 AQD (UTC)
Yeah, "IMNSHO" is way cooler than "IMHO".--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 23:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Some people take imho to mean "in my holy opinion" in which case only popes and cult leaders could use it. But anyway... Back to the issue at hand. What do y'all think about the two words in the headline of this thread? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:50, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
"Obscene carnage" only happens in guro hentai.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 23:53, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I know what Hentai is (who over the age of 12 with an internet connection doesn't?) but what is guro? Well, for the sake of my sanity don't tell me. And especially don't link to any examples of it.... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:01, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
"Guro" is Japanese and derived from the English word "gore" and is a term for media, where it gets... gory.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 00:04, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
I did not want to know that!Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:10, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
Then why ask? This is hentai we're talking about after all. Ya know, tentacle rape etc. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 00:13, 21 August 42015 AQD (UTC)
Gucatala.(word of disgust in parts of the Hispanosphere, sometimes expressed as "guacala") Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 00:19, 21 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't think there's anything wrong with calling something horrific horrific. I'm not sure why you insist on calling something horrific 'just stuff that happens'. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 23:55, 20 August 42015 AQD (UTC)

State-of-the-art weaponry[edit]

Here meaning planes older than he is? WalkerWalkerWalker 20:34, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Who knows.... But I of course am not allowed to discuss this, lest I be reported to User:-Mona-'s "Journo-Buddies" Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 12:55, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

How about we discuss proposed changes to the article instead of edit-warring over them?[edit]

Blacke (talk) 04:09, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Status quo ante of yesterday is fine by me. Even though the article still makes some excuses for that sad excuse for a human being. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 04:11, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Status quo ante was historically -- totally -- incomplete.---Mona- (talk) 04:17, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Avenger, why do you keep on removing Mona's text about the legal rulings in his favour? It seems factually accurate and important for a complete understanding of the situation. Blacke (talk) 04:19, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Avenger your bias is showing. Cover your shame. Tielec01 (talk) 04:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Not only that, the world of American academia is abuzz about the professional deaths in the wake of the ruling and the released emails. It's highly salient information related directly to Salaita and his firing.---Mona- (talk) 04:32, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
It's been my experience that Avenger almost never supports his assertions. It's quite bizarre, actually. As if he doesn't know how to google.---Mona- (talk) 04:34, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I have found it necessary in almost all cases the best response to Mona's drivel is slash and burn replace it all with better written stuff. I don't think Salaita winning a court case is all that relevant, but do we really need to cite it at such a grotesque length as to overwhelm the rest of the article? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 12:55, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

His court victories are very relevant when the topic of the article is him being fired/not hired for saying things which offended some people, and the court case was about whether that firing/not hiring him on those grounds was legal. (If you think the length of the mention is excessively long, you could always try condensing it a bit instead of deleting it entirely.) Blacke (talk) 12:58, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Is it our mission to document whether or not he was legally fired? I don't think so. However, it very much is our mission to show him for the antisemitic waste of Oxygen he truly is. And the way Mona portrays his court case in a sympathetic light does our page more harm thaen good. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 13:21, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
"Missionality" is not an excuse for only telling the parts of the story that fit your preferred narrative. Blacke (talk) 13:24, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Your edits are poor Avenger. Get consensus before making your changes. Tielec01 (talk) 13:27, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Constant edit wars seem to float your boat Avenger. It is fucking tiresome. Especially so when an article can no longer be locked by another sysop to keep you away.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 13:30, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Nope, that's Mona's and Blacke's thing, not his.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 14:40, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Sure, sure. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 17:26, 18 September 42015 AQD (UTC)
Again, Avenger (and to some extent Arsiboch) either simply assert with no support, or the offered support does not back up the claim. By contrast, I document and make a great effort to be sure my citations support what I've written.---Mona- (talk) 17:46, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

Paravant can u edit?[edit]

The University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign is called tons of things in this article. "UICA" and "UICU." I was about to go in and make it uniformly UIUC when the page got locked.---Mona- (talk) 17:53, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

It's back down to Sysop, so you can go find them.--"Paravant" Talk & Contribs 22:04, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
I think I caught them ALL. Thanks.---Mona- (talk) 00:32, 19 September 2015 (UTC)

Last graf in "Tweets & context"[edit]

That needs a citation, and also needs to make more sense. (What does Hamas' radio messages have to do with anything?) Whoever is behind that paragraph please tend to it or it should be deleted.---Mona- (talk) 17:43, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

Irony section[edit]

Those derogatory claims about a living person have been sitting there with no citations for some time now. If no credible sourcing is added I plan to delete it.---Mona- (talk) 17:03, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

Mona won't allow any negative facts about her favorite Israel haters to be present in this wiki at all Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:02, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
If these are real facts, I'm sure you can find cites for them. Blacke (talk) 22:22, 22 September 2015 (UTC)
Well, Avenger saw this and there's still no citation. ZAP it goes.---Mona- (talk) 17:31, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

If Avenger or anyone else can credibly source those claims I could not object to their going back in.---Mona- (talk) 19:30, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Strange that I was able to find it with simple Googling of "salaita barring israeli academic". Perhaps some people here need to update their search skills. --Castaigne (talk) 20:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Here's an article he wrote supporting the boycot, and this one mentions some of the other claims (but IMHO that's a bit of a weak source). By the way, I don't think that boycotting a country for crimes committed by the government of said country is the same as firing an individual for speaking his or her mind.. (so I'm not editing it back it as it was) Carpetsmoker (talk) 19:34, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Another editors asked for names of the "some" who think Salaita's tweets were "genocidal." I googled with the phrase "Salaita's tweets genocide" and checked the first two pages of results and got nothing. So I removed the claim. ---Mona- (talk) 19:43, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Also strange, because when I google "salaita tweet anti-semitic", I get this and this. And the latter definitely shows tweets I consider antisemitic. --Castaigne (talk) 20:19, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Castaigne, it's absurd to use a source for that claims that says the opposite, to wit:

But Lubet’s attacks on Salaita are very weak. It’s true Salaita writes that Hillel is “ethnonationalist” and should “be banned from participating in any form of multicultural celebration.” But that’s very different from proposing any censorship of Hillel (unlike Hillel’s own national policy which bans chapters from participating in any events with anti-Israel people). And although barring Israeli deans from speaking for their institutions at scholarly conferences is a misguided policy of the American Studies Association, since that actually never happens, there is no impact on academic freedom. If this is the worst Lubet can say about Salaita and free expression, then Salaita would be among the strongest supporters of academic freedom in the country, and far better than anyone who favors firing Salaita.

That's all true, by the way.---Mona- (talk) 20:26, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

  1. I don't think the attacks are weak.
  2. I included more than one source in order to provide contrasting opinions for the discerning reader.
  3. Congrats! You've caused me to research his expertise on the subject and I found he ISN'T ONE! Instead, he's a fucking shill with a monomaniacal personal agenda against Zionism. I'm going to have a lot of fun rewriting this article. --Castaigne (talk) 20:30, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


Have at it, provided you can make it relevant to his firing and the court findings on that topic. It's doubly preposterous he was "fired" for his political comments that are not on topic he was found by the relevant academic department to be well-qualified for. And please do not vandalizemy comments by plastering yours right in the middle of them.---Mona- (talk) 20:53, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Interesting Non-Expert Fellow[edit]

Y'know, if the guy is a supposed expert on Native American Studies, why the fuck is he commenting on Israel/Palestine as if he's some sort of expert? Native American Studies with a literature emphasis. I agree with this; he sure has a monomaniacal focus. --Castaigne (talk) 20:27, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

We all know that American natives are actually Israeli Jews. duh. Carpetsmoker (talk) 20:39, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Well yes, how stupid to oppose his hiring for political comments he made about a subject that isn't what he teaches. But he's Palestinian, and Native Americans tend to be VERY supportive of Palestinians. They often see it as the same anti-colonialist fight.
And that has nothing to do with this guy, who obviously promotes himself as an expert on Israel/Palestine. No, I see a target for mockery here. (Really, why the fuck would I care that Native Americans support Palestinians in general? And Prussians generally support Bismarck!) --Castaigne (talk) 20:57, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
There is great academic overlap in his field of study between Native Americans and Palestinians -- they are tutored in indigenous populations vis-a-vis colonialism worldwide. Plus, he's Palestinian, he has a natural interest in that area.---Mona- (talk) 21:01, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
He's American, his mum is (claimed by him) to be born in Nicaragua to Palestinian parents, his father is (claimed to be) Jordan.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 21:05, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
It's only a very generic, general overlap. Essentially, it's "Oh look, a people that's been oppressed at some time in history." overlap. With some colonialism thrown in. It's not specific and not particularly relevant because it's too broad of an overlap. And it doesn't matter that he's Palestinian; it still doesn't make him an expert. He's the equivalent of a plumber considering himself an electrician expert. --Castaigne (talk) 21:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
And really, this is fucking funny. Aside from his thesis, it appears he has spent the time since getting his Ph.d never, ever writing anything about Native Americans ever again. Nadda. Zip. And apparently, he's a completely shitty scholar in his chosen field of non-expertise. --Castaigne (talk) 21:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
You might want to dial that back a little. He's published articles in his field of expertise, and, don't forget, was considered to be well-published enough and enough of an expert in his field to get a tenure-track job offer from a major American research university at a time when academic jobs in the humanities are highly competitive. Unless you actually know something about the field and are skilled enough to do a simple JSTOR search, don't make the claim you want to make. It's demonstrably false. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 21:12, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
It looks like he got this job offer on the basis of his popular anti-Zionist/Israel work, like Israel's Dead Soul, which should really be the title of a horror movie. I don't know that a couple of articles from a few academic journals suffice. I mean, if he's such a Native American Studies expert, I'd expect him to have 60-70 such articles from the past decade and at least 2-3 books on the subject. --Castaigne (talk) 21:25, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Castaigne, before you make a fool of yourself, do some research on why the Palestinian-American Salaita was hired and what fellows in his field think of his work:
At the end of September, UI Associate Chancellor Reginald Alston, an advisor to Chancellor Phyllis Wise on academic and faculty affairs, sent a message to Wise's assistant saying he supported the program's request to give Salaita indefinite tenure with the rank of associate professor. "The uniqueness of his scholarship on the intersection of American Indian, Palestinian, and American Palestinian experiences presents a rare opportunity to add an esoteric perspective on indigeneity to our cultural studies programs on campus," Alston wrote. "His presence would elevate (American Indian Studies) internationally and convey Illinois' commitment to maintaining a leading academic program on the historical and sociopolitical intricacies of American Indian culture."
---Mona- (talk) 21:09, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
I really don't care what other people's opinions of him are. Opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one. --Castaigne (talk) 21:25, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Those are not mere "onions." They constitute the assessment of the academic experts who are qualified to undertake said assessments. It is part of their job requirements to do that and to do it competently.---Mona- (talk) 22:36, 23 September 2015 (UTC)
Well onions, they are not. What they are has - I think - been succinctly stated by Castaigne. And I would really like to see a cheap B-horror movie with a title like Israel's Dead Soul.... sounds like it would be even more fun thaen the Zombie sheep in that one Kiwi flick... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:11, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

An interesting fact about Native Americans[edit]

There has been much talk about the oppression of Native Americans, which is certainly a historic reality that has very real consequences to this day. However, if you ask Native Americans, you might get a surprisingly more complex image (stupid reality, always rejecting simplicity). For one, Native Americans are constantly over-represented in the US military. So there seems to be a very strong current within Native American identity today that strongly identifies in a positive way with the state USA and its symbols, including its armed forces. As Israel has a general compulsory military service, Israeli Arabs are of course under-represented among the military personnel, but nonetheless many citizens of Israel that aren't Jews still fight and die for Israel - voluntarily. Which of course flies in the face of many of the tall tales Hamas likes to tell its followers. The fact that Salaita is unable to see such complexity might indicate that his knowledge of the modern experience of Israeli Arabs is even more limited thaen his knowledge of what it means to be a Native American today. But that is just an aside. I have not read any of his writings on his supposed field of expertise, maybe he has some stopped clock moments in it... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

Suing your way back into in a job?[edit]

That'll do his career in that joint much good.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 12:30, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

What?---Mona- (talk) 15:59, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
I never understand why people try that, even if it works going back like that isn't a viable option. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 16:11, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Steven Salaita did not "sue himself back into a job". Rather, he received a settlement. This is very clear if you actually read the article.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 16:21, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Close enough.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 16:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
This was not remotely just "any job." There were several enormously important principles to be (successfully) upheld, and they largely were. Indeed, it remains to be seen whether the academic community that was outraged over the university's violations of: 1. academic freedom; 2. free speech; and 3. faculty self-governance; will lift the sanctions on UIUC. The university has been extensively boycotted by prominent academics refusing to speak there. This may continue. Some fear the settlement means the principles violated by UIUC re: Salaita now simply carry a high price tag, but a price tag nevertheless.---Mona- (talk) 16:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
So a job with politics attached (if he wouldn't have the political opinions he had, no-one of these eggheads would've given a fuck about some two-bit prof getting booted for shitposting).--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 16:37, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
Actually, many of the boycotting academics either are Zionist themselves, or not especially interested in the I/P issue. It is precisely that the firing was about a professor's politics that rang the alarm bell for so many. Moreover, he's not regarded as "two-bit" in his field.---Mona- (talk) 16:52, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Could you please stop this edit war[edit]

I don't even know what this is all about...

Could both sides please say what they want and than shout at each other for two days until finally we get some sort of agreement on something Pizzameister (talk) 21:29, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

There was an edit war? I'm just streamlining some awkward/redundant phrasings left in by Mona. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 21:30, 29 January 42016 AQD (UTC)
And Castaigne2 reverted you. And now Aging Hippie has intervened... And next we will have half of recent changes be this... Pizzameister (talk) 21:36, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
AgingHippie has phrased the passage in question to reflect, exactly, word-for-word, what the provided source says in a clear and unambiguous fashion, and, in the absence of any other sources, this should resolve any issues. Aginghippie does not usually refer to himself in the third person. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 21:42, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
Saying "According to X" seems kind of redundant in this context unless you want to imply doubt about the statement's truthfulness. But eh, whatever. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 21:48, 29 January 42016 AQD (UTC)
I agree. Find out where the woman's parents was born, and if it is within the borders of Israel proper, write it that way. If it is in the occupied territories, write it that way. Better yet, his grandparents' birthplace is not super relevant, as his activism is related to much more than his family history, so leave it out altogether. Peace. AgingHippie (talk) 21:51, 29 January 2016 (UTC)
According to Wikipedia, his grandmother's home was in Ayn KarimWikipedia/Ein KaremWikipedia, but the source cited doesn't seem to currently mention that information, so... *shrugs* 142.124.55.236 (talk) 22:03, 29 January 42016 AQD (UTC)
Will we? I don't see why that'd be so. I hadn't even noticed Castaigne's edit in between. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 21:43, 29 January 42016 AQD (UTC)
Pizzameister chuckled reading AgingHippie's reply Pizzameister (talk) 21:45, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Forty one footnotes[edit]

About a guy I never heard of ("random page" is fun). Could you please tell me how and why this man is so relevant? I don't quite get it from the article. Seems to have been one of many social media outrage campaigns that did not change much Laurogeita Hamabost (talk) 16:06, 20 June 2016 (UTC)