Talk:Veganism

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Cats and veganism[edit]

Veganism is not a problem if the cats are also allowed to hunt/fish (which latter they can do). Anna Livia (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

People who don't want to feed cats properly because the widdle animals had to die to feed them, probably aren't going to be OK with their cats doing the killing themselves. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 20:45, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Also brings in the issue of cats as an invasive species due to hunting of native small fauna, which the environmental-minded vegans aren't going to be fond of. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Don't let your fucking housecats kill native birds, many of which have struggling populations. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Keep those nasty walking blood-thirsty hairballs indoors at all times, actually. And don't feed outdoor cats no matter how sorry you feel for them. Your neighbors, birds, lizards, squirrels, and other small critters will thank you. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 22:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. And if you see a stray, go full Melmacian on it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Is this ironic?[edit]

I'm sorry, but what the actual hell? This wiki seems very rational to me, but this one page is just complete garbage. Do you consider the extent of avoidable suffering caused by the meat industry? Or do you just want to focus on a few vegans whose methodology you disagree with, so therefore the whole movement is bad? Or am I just too stupid to get this joke of an article? --Brmbrmcar (talk) 02:03, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

@Brmbrmcar Congratulations! You are the one millionth person to write a generic complaint about the irrationality of an article. Have a drink on the house! Or come up with a more specfic and detailed argument that doesn't sound like literally half the nitwits who watched idiots like Shapiro and learned how to parrot words... Your choice. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 02:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie On one hand, you have vegans who act irrationally, or to put it more bluntly, like pricks, as has been shown by the article. On the other, is the actual suffering caused by the meat industry, which in my opinion is far far greater than anything these shitty vegans will do. Now, you can disagree there, but the article literally avoids any discussion of it! ANd by your response, it seems like you're unwilling to consider this element, which is the main idea of veganism, to any non-fallacious claim. I'll attempt to make a rational rebuttal when you make an actual argument. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 00:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Brmbrmcar So you're just going to throw around some half-decent claims but then spoil it by asserting what is and is not rational. Got it, you may leave now. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. I'm not actually trying to debate you, I'm just pointing out that when you assert what is and is not rational, as if just saying "rational" magics your argument into correctness, you sort of nuke yourself in the crotch. I can start listing every manner of dumbfuck who has asserted rationality as the basis of their claims, seeming to terminally lack the ability to comprehend rationalism as a philosophical concept. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I will say that RW has a rather unfortunate name that encourages this use of the word "rational". It's been a recurring problem on talk pages of this wiki. Fixing the name is not something I would recommend, still, but it's useful to keep in mind what it does. I also think RWs tendency to highlight crankery in whatever subject it touches often gives the impression that every subject is full of negativity, and this is occasionally, but not often, counter balanced by a disclaimer that it's not all negative. That doesn't mean the articles are technically nutpicking, but the impression can be similar. This also is not easy to fix, as attempting to counter balance negativity in articles can easily lead to balance fallacy or tone argument. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 09:12, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I doubt the name of the wiki would have changed my argument; if this were a more right wing site or something else stupid, I wouldn't have made the comment. But due to how much I think the other pages on different discussions are well justified, this article seemed to be a contrast to it. But yes, I did always myself think that 'RationalWiki' was a bad name, seeing as everyone can claim to be rational. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Brmbrmcar Okie dokie. Time to start listing every group that has claimed that they're rational and that being skeptical of their shitty arguments is irrational. Because they too dropped the word rational every five minutes and were terminally unable to just make their case and let their arguments and evidence speak for itself. Nazis, Tankies, TERFs, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, Targeted Individuals, neo reactionaries, Creationists, Biblical Literalists, quantum woo cranks, electric universe cranks, cold fusion cranks, homeopaths, Trump supporters, Q-Anon conspiracy theorists, Racialists, Anti-vaxxers, and more that I've probably forgotten. Would you like me to start listing the crank publications too? They too got hung up on the name rather than making coherent arguments and not asserting what is and is not rational. Or are you going to write an argument against the parts of this article that you contest, check it for logical fallacies, and make sure it's readable and coherent? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Well thanks for confirming my exact point. But yes, I did explain what I dislike about the article, and moreover I can and will say that other articles are even worse, such as the Vegetarianism article, stating that 'They're generally to be avoided if you want interesting conversation but still more bearable than vegans.'. This is the kind of attitude I oppose and that's part of my argument. I've said more here, I weon't repeat myself. But of course, you're unwilling to listen. Like literally, I fucking said I didn't give a shit about the name when I made my argument. Total strawman. My point was EXACTLY that those people can and will claim rationality too. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Nobody asked for this, and I was the one who brought up the name, not the person you're replying to. Also I didn't bring up the name in order for us to get hung up on it, I just pointed out that it encourages the behaviour that you are railing against (namely said dropping of the word 'rational'). And no, I don't want the name to be changed, so let's forget about it. Please understand. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 14:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@82.36.198.177 My apologies. I generally see people getting hung up on the name (if had a US dollar someone said the exact quote of "so much for RATIONAL Wiki" or "more like Irrational wiki"...) when they start waving the word rational around like a frigging magic talisman. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:17, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes, there even used to be a template people used to respond to this, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Template:RATIONALWiki : "But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink!
I suppose I should be glad it's fallen out of frequent use as it wasn't particularly productive, but it does make a good suggestion about drinking. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 14:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately, one issue I see here is that a debate over animal suffering in factory farming, while definitely a debate of importance, largely falls outside the mission of this Wiki. Whereas vegan crankery is in scope. Having said that, I don't get the impression in the article that it says that all vegans are bad (rather, it contrasts more sensible vegans to some on the cranky side). But if you can highlight examples you feel are too negatively balanced, that would be helpful. Soundwave106 (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Soundwave106 If animal suffering really is out of the mission of this wiki, stick to it. There are also articles exclusively about animal rights here, surely they'd be out of scope too? Secondly, given the nature of veganism being almost universally hated, it would make sense in my opinion to very clearly point out the distinction between cranky vegans and rational ones (which isn't done well enough in this article from what I see) as the article is simply called 'veganism' and I'd be very surprised if the majority of vegans are like this. And finally, why should it be outside the mission of the wiki? Iäm not going to pretend to be an expert about this wiki, but I don't see why it would be, and honestly it seems to me as if it is being avoided for being too controversial amongst almost any audience, which is more reason to include it in my opinion. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Animal rights, factory farming, and veganism doesn't really fit in the subjects of pseudoscience / anti-science, crank ideology, authoritarianism related, or fundamentalism related. Those are the mission subjects on the cover page. Veganism only steps into crank ideology when people start over-applying it and behave in a cultish manner, or ignore certain scientific principles. I don't see it as universally hated personally. There are many authors at this wiki, and not all of the articles on this wiki fit neatly into these categories. The wiki also covers the inverse subjects sometimes too (for instance, an article on what science says about animal suffering wouldn't be out of place). But there will be a bias to over-cover the cranks as a result. Soundwave106 (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Soundwave106 Not authoritarian? Viewing other sentient beings as less important to control them isn't authoritarian? At the very least, any defence of these would and is very pseudoscientific and would fit in the mission subjects. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 16:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Nope, "authoritarianism" is typically applied to human to human power structures only. Humans are apex predators -- this doesn't count, in the same way that a lion isn't being "authoritarian" when it eats a gazelle or a snake isn't being "authoritarian" when it swallows a frog. If you're going to call every person who consumes meat (as well as people who have pets etc.) "authoritarian", well, I can see not only why you hate this page, but also why you think veganism is so hated. Soundwave106 (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Pretty sure that they see veganism as hated here because the tone of the article is nothing like say, Feminism, Global warming, Abortion or even Christianity. If someone tried to remake the feminism article to read like the list of picked nuts on veganism page - which certainly is doable, as there are cases of feminist being nuts and doing real harm, having misguided and objectively wrong beliefs - they'd certainly get reverted. Same for picking misguided protectors of climate or choice. Then there are moronic quips, like the one in first paragraph of vegetarianism article. --31.11.143.40 (talk) 19:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Soundwave106 I meant the meat industry, not necessarily people who eat meat or keep pets. I could have been clearer, but in some senses I feel like you are deliberately strawmanning. Either way, Iäm not going to get into a semantics argument about what authoritarianism applies to or not, although I still see absolutely no reason why it can't apply to non-humans too. My point is that it is still very arbitrary to me that animal suffering is excluded.--Brmbrmcar (talk) 20:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
"I could have been clearer, but in some senses I feel like you are deliberately strawmanning. How is taking what you wrote, which you admit was unclear and misleading as to your intent, and then taking it at face value and extrapolating from it strawmanning? Is Soundwave strawmamning your thoughts? Is that even a reasonable standard to hold given our lack of telepathy? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
{{ping|GrammarCommie} Because from the context, it was possible to construct the true meaning, but I'd understand if you couldn't because of my lack of clarity. But to then assume that I've took an extreme position, which there is very little contextual evidence for me doing, is much less understandable. It may be a genuine interpretation, and maybe I should assume it is, and I think I should apologise for not doing so, but I never made a solid accusation of it; 'feel'. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Vegan parental negligence[edit]

@The Blade of the Northern Lights You rather seem to have missed the point. "Humans can only get B12 from meat", as an ethical justification, is a completely separate argument to saying "lions eat meat too". Omnivores who simultaneously assert that "it's OK to eat meat because lions do it" and "it's not OK for vegan parents to kill their children even though lions do it" are involved in a contradiction. By the way, it is completely false that humans can only get B12 from meat. B12 is present in all animal products, not just meat, so ovo-lacto-vegetarians need not worry about deficiency. As for vegans, adequate sources of B12 are available in the form of supplements and fortified foods. And if you feel uncomfortable with that because it's "unnatural", you don't have any business taking painkillers. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Troll The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:14, 24 May 2020 (UTC)