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Talk:Veganism

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Cats and veganism[edit]

Veganism is not a problem if the cats are also allowed to hunt/fish (which latter they can do). Anna Livia (talk) 12:50, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

People who don't want to feed cats properly because the widdle animals had to die to feed them, probably aren't going to be OK with their cats doing the killing themselves. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 20:45, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Also brings in the issue of cats as an invasive species due to hunting of native small fauna, which the environmental-minded vegans aren't going to be fond of. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 21:11, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Don't let your fucking housecats kill native birds, many of which have struggling populations. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 21:23, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Keep those nasty walking blood-thirsty hairballs indoors at all times, actually. And don't feed outdoor cats no matter how sorry you feel for them. Your neighbors, birds, lizards, squirrels, and other small critters will thank you. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 22:13, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
Agreed. And if you see a stray, go full Melmacian on it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:24, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Is this ironic?[edit]

I'm sorry, but what the actual hell? This wiki seems very rational to me, but this one page is just complete garbage. Do you consider the extent of avoidable suffering caused by the meat industry? Or do you just want to focus on a few vegans whose methodology you disagree with, so therefore the whole movement is bad? Or am I just too stupid to get this joke of an article? --Brmbrmcar (talk) 02:03, 22 February 2020 (UTC)

@Brmbrmcar I agree. Every now and again, RationalWiki likes to take a stance which makes zero logical sense. For example, how the current rate of progress isn't faster than before, how the mere support of an English spelling reform is crankery, or how torturing animals for personal pleasure is acceptable. This is one of those nonsensical pages. Przciąszczłóśćiek (talk) 11:00, 21 October 2020 (UTC)
@Brmbrmcar Congratulations! You are the one millionth person to write a generic complaint about the irrationality of an article. Have a drink on the house! Or come up with a more specfic and detailed argument that doesn't sound like literally half the nitwits who watched idiots like Shapiro and learned how to parrot words... Your choice. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 02:28, 22 February 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie On one hand, you have vegans who act irrationally, or to put it more bluntly, like pricks, as has been shown by the article. On the other, is the actual suffering caused by the meat industry, which in my opinion is far far greater than anything these shitty vegans will do. Now, you can disagree there, but the article literally avoids any discussion of it! ANd by your response, it seems like you're unwilling to consider this element, which is the main idea of veganism, to any non-fallacious claim. I'll attempt to make a rational rebuttal when you make an actual argument. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 00:57, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Brmbrmcar So you're just going to throw around some half-decent claims but then spoil it by asserting what is and is not rational. Got it, you may leave now. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
P.S. I'm not actually trying to debate you, I'm just pointing out that when you assert what is and is not rational, as if just saying "rational" magics your argument into correctness, you sort of nuke yourself in the crotch. I can start listing every manner of dumbfuck who has asserted rationality as the basis of their claims, seeming to terminally lack the ability to comprehend rationalism as a philosophical concept. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 03:14, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I will say that RW has a rather unfortunate name that encourages this use of the word "rational". It's been a recurring problem on talk pages of this wiki. Fixing the name is not something I would recommend, still, but it's useful to keep in mind what it does. I also think RWs tendency to highlight crankery in whatever subject it touches often gives the impression that every subject is full of negativity, and this is occasionally, but not often, counter balanced by a disclaimer that it's not all negative. That doesn't mean the articles are technically nutpicking, but the impression can be similar. This also is not easy to fix, as attempting to counter balance negativity in articles can easily lead to balance fallacy or tone argument. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 09:12, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
I doubt the name of the wiki would have changed my argument; if this were a more right wing site or something else stupid, I wouldn't have made the comment. But due to how much I think the other pages on different discussions are well justified, this article seemed to be a contrast to it. But yes, I did always myself think that 'RationalWiki' was a bad name, seeing as everyone can claim to be rational. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Brmbrmcar Okie dokie. Time to start listing every group that has claimed that they're rational and that being skeptical of their shitty arguments is irrational. Because they too dropped the word rational every five minutes and were terminally unable to just make their case and let their arguments and evidence speak for itself. Nazis, Tankies, TERFs, 9/11 conspiracy theorists, Targeted Individuals, neo reactionaries, Creationists, Biblical Literalists, quantum woo cranks, electric universe cranks, cold fusion cranks, homeopaths, Trump supporters, Q-Anon conspiracy theorists, Racialists, Anti-vaxxers, and more that I've probably forgotten. Would you like me to start listing the crank publications too? They too got hung up on the name rather than making coherent arguments and not asserting what is and is not rational. Or are you going to write an argument against the parts of this article that you contest, check it for logical fallacies, and make sure it's readable and coherent? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:00, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Well thanks for confirming my exact point. But yes, I did explain what I dislike about the article, and moreover I can and will say that other articles are even worse, such as the Vegetarianism article, stating that 'They're generally to be avoided if you want interesting conversation but still more bearable than vegans.'. This is the kind of attitude I oppose and that's part of my argument. I've said more here, I weon't repeat myself. But of course, you're unwilling to listen. Like literally, I fucking said I didn't give a shit about the name when I made my argument. Total strawman. My point was EXACTLY that those people can and will claim rationality too. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 16:22, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Nobody asked for this, and I was the one who brought up the name, not the person you're replying to. Also I didn't bring up the name in order for us to get hung up on it, I just pointed out that it encourages the behaviour that you are railing against (namely said dropping of the word 'rational'). And no, I don't want the name to be changed, so let's forget about it. Please understand. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 14:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@82.36.198.177 My apologies. I generally see people getting hung up on the name (if had a US dollar someone said the exact quote of "so much for RATIONAL Wiki" or "more like Irrational wiki"...) when they start waving the word rational around like a frigging magic talisman. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 14:17, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Yes, there even used to be a template people used to respond to this, https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Template:RATIONALWiki : "But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink!
I suppose I should be glad it's fallen out of frequent use as it wasn't particularly productive, but it does make a good suggestion about drinking. 82.36.198.177 (talk) 14:38, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Unfortunately, one issue I see here is that a debate over animal suffering in factory farming, while definitely a debate of importance, largely falls outside the mission of this Wiki. Whereas vegan crankery is in scope. Having said that, I don't get the impression in the article that it says that all vegans are bad (rather, it contrasts more sensible vegans to some on the cranky side). But if you can highlight examples you feel are too negatively balanced, that would be helpful. Soundwave106 (talk) 03:43, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Soundwave106 If animal suffering really is out of the mission of this wiki, stick to it. There are also articles exclusively about animal rights here, surely they'd be out of scope too? Secondly, given the nature of veganism being almost universally hated, it would make sense in my opinion to very clearly point out the distinction between cranky vegans and rational ones (which isn't done well enough in this article from what I see) as the article is simply called 'veganism' and I'd be very surprised if the majority of vegans are like this. And finally, why should it be outside the mission of the wiki? Iäm not going to pretend to be an expert about this wiki, but I don't see why it would be, and honestly it seems to me as if it is being avoided for being too controversial amongst almost any audience, which is more reason to include it in my opinion. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 11:46, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Animal rights, factory farming, and veganism doesn't really fit in the subjects of pseudoscience / anti-science, crank ideology, authoritarianism related, or fundamentalism related. Those are the mission subjects on the cover page. Veganism only steps into crank ideology when people start over-applying it and behave in a cultish manner, or ignore certain scientific principles. I don't see it as universally hated personally. There are many authors at this wiki, and not all of the articles on this wiki fit neatly into these categories. The wiki also covers the inverse subjects sometimes too (for instance, an article on what science says about animal suffering wouldn't be out of place). But there will be a bias to over-cover the cranks as a result. Soundwave106 (talk) 16:36, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Soundwave106 Not authoritarian? Viewing other sentient beings as less important to control them isn't authoritarian? At the very least, any defence of these would and is very pseudoscientific and would fit in the mission subjects. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 16:53, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Nope, "authoritarianism" is typically applied to human to human power structures only. Humans are apex predators -- this doesn't count, in the same way that a lion isn't being "authoritarian" when it eats a gazelle or a snake isn't being "authoritarian" when it swallows a frog. If you're going to call every person who consumes meat (as well as people who have pets etc.) "authoritarian", well, I can see not only why you hate this page, but also why you think veganism is so hated. Soundwave106 (talk) 17:18, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
Pretty sure that they see veganism as hated here because the tone of the article is nothing like say, Feminism, Global warming, Abortion or even Christianity. If someone tried to remake the feminism article to read like the list of picked nuts on veganism page - which certainly is doable, as there are cases of feminist being nuts and doing real harm, having misguided and objectively wrong beliefs - they'd certainly get reverted. Same for picking misguided protectors of climate or choice. Then there are moronic quips, like the one in first paragraph of vegetarianism article. --31.11.143.40 (talk) 19:24, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
@Soundwave106 I meant the meat industry, not necessarily people who eat meat or keep pets. I could have been clearer, but in some senses I feel like you are deliberately strawmanning. Either way, Iäm not going to get into a semantics argument about what authoritarianism applies to or not, although I still see absolutely no reason why it can't apply to non-humans too. My point is that it is still very arbitrary to me that animal suffering is excluded.--Brmbrmcar (talk) 20:30, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
"I could have been clearer, but in some senses I feel like you are deliberately strawmanning. How is taking what you wrote, which you admit was unclear and misleading as to your intent, and then taking it at face value and extrapolating from it strawmanning? Is Soundwave strawmamning your thoughts? Is that even a reasonable standard to hold given our lack of telepathy? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:35, 23 February 2020 (UTC)
{{ping|GrammarCommie} Because from the context, it was possible to construct the true meaning, but I'd understand if you couldn't because of my lack of clarity. But to then assume that I've took an extreme position, which there is very little contextual evidence for me doing, is much less understandable. It may be a genuine interpretation, and maybe I should assume it is, and I think I should apologise for not doing so, but I never made a solid accusation of it; 'feel'. --Brmbrmcar (talk) 22:15, 23 February 2020 (UTC)

Vegan parental negligence[edit]

@The Blade of the Northern Lights You rather seem to have missed the point. "Humans can only get B12 from meat", as an ethical justification, is a completely separate argument to saying "lions eat meat too". Omnivores who simultaneously assert that "it's OK to eat meat because lions do it" and "it's not OK for vegan parents to kill their children even though lions do it" are involved in a contradiction. By the way, it is completely false that humans can only get B12 from meat. B12 is present in all animal products, not just meat, so ovo-lacto-vegetarians need not worry about deficiency. As for vegans, adequate sources of B12 are available in the form of supplements and fortified foods. And if you feel uncomfortable with that because it's "unnatural", you don't have any business taking painkillers. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 16:56, 24 May 2020 (UTC)

Troll The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 22:14, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
Troll Oxyaena Harass 18:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
@The Blade of the Northern Lights How is it trolling? When I am debunking a specific argument against veganism/in defense of omnivorism, it doesn't make any sense to remove it with the rationale "but what about this argument for omnivorism?". 81.103.37.86 (talk) 18:48, 10 June 2020 (UTC)
@The Blade of the Northern Lights I can't help but suspect that labelling someone a troll is either a psychological defense mechanism for someone who's unable to defend their position, or an evasive tactic for someone who's too lazy to.
Let me clarify. I'd assumed, or rather hoped, you wouldn't need this to be clearly spelled out for you, but you apparently do. I'm obviously not saying it's OK for vegan parents to kill their children – that would undermine my point. What I'm saying is that IF you endorse the "lions eat meat so it's acceptable for us to as well" argument AND you condemn vegan parents for killing their children, that shows that you don't apply the "what wild animals do it's acceptable for us to do as well" principle with any consistency, but only for the ad hoc purpose of justifying meat-eating. You are therefore in a state of moral hypocrisy. Do you not understand that, or are you just too stubborn to admit it? 81.103.37.86 (talk) 00:37, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
I mean, I can't disagree. The "It happens in nature" argument taken to an unreasonable extreme would enable all sorts of inhuman and terrible things like killing the children of a woman you want to have sex with. But in the end, if I perform a moral calculus of the world, based on almost any ethical system I've read, I can't actually weight an animal's life as equal to a human's, nor can I find the philosophical and empirical argument that animals, like people have a fundamental desire for true self determination. And a cruel fact of reality is that my life depends on something's death. Thus if I'm further tasked with the job of finding a sincere reason to put a fish above a strawberry, ethically, I find it unconvicing. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 01:00, 12 June 2020 (UTC)
Veganism, as an ethical position, doesn't depend on the principle that all sentient lives are of equal value. An ethical defense of omnivorism, conversely, does require that human lives are above those of animals. But in the overwhelming majority of cases of humans eating meat, neither their health nor their life depends on it. So under normal circumstances omnivorism depends on the stronger claim that mere human pleasure has higher value than the life of an animal.
It really should be trivially obvious that members of a civilised species like humans have much higher moral standards than wild animals like lions, yet one of the most common excuses for meat-eating is "lions do it too". What does that tell you about the ethics of eating meat? If meat eating is really defensible, why do we have to so dramatically lower our moral standards in order to make room for it?
As Jeremy Bentham noted, when considering whether organisms should figure in moral judgments, the question is not "can they talk?" or "can they reason?" but "can they suffer?". So if a fish has any ability to suffer, however primitive it might be, it follows that it should be assigned higher value than a strawberry. And the science is pretty clear that fish are just as sophisticated in their ability to feel pain and fear as land animals. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 18:28, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Your post seems to acknowledge an important truth. Animals very simply do not inhabit a moral universe. They are creatures of their own internal programming. No moral judgment can be placed when one animal kills another.
You seem to be the one putting humans on a pedestal. Poeple are. indeed, just another animal. We are also creatures of our internal programming. We didn't acquire binocular vision for nuthin'. Our eyes are not set up to give us maximum field of vision so we can see whatever's sneaking up on us. Our eyes, by contrast, are set up to see what's in front of us, and make a good guess how far away it is. We are also born predators. And domesticated animals in some sense volunteered for domestication and all it entails. From the Darwinian sense, hitching a ride with a species as dominant as humans is a great deal. Winners at domestication leave a vast progeny, hundreds of times more than they'd enjoy without human assistance. This is all Darwin cares about.
So the question isn't "can they talk?" or "can they reason?" nor "can they suffer?" The question is should we care? To me the animal rights cult reminds me of nothing if not a bobo version of the anti-abortion cult. They share the common fanatical features of deceit, aggressive trespass, and other violence. Something inside breaks when you sentimentalize something inappropriate and start bawling over your lost darlings in public, and then you discover nobody cares. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 07:26, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Animals very simply do not inhabit a moral universe. They are creatures of their own internal programming. No moral judgment can be placed when one animal kills another. [...] Poeple are. indeed, just another animal. We are also creatures of our internal programming.
So you don't believe in free will or moral responsibility? I believe this is one of the main things distinguishing us from animals. But the fact that animals do not possess similar moral agency is no reason not to include them in our circle of moral consideration. Any utilitarian principle will entail that animals do have moral value as they have the capacity to experience pain and pleasure.
We are also born predators In what sense? If a child harms animals it is considered a sign that they are mentally disturbed and may go on to harm other humans as well. Yet this is exactly the kind of behaviour that comes naturally to predators in the wild. Many meat-eaters could probably not bring themselves to kill the animals they eat if they were tasked with doing so, or even to witness the event. Why would seeing the process of how meat arrives on your plate discourage you from eating it, if you think it's what you are naturally supposed to do?
Winners at domestication leave a vast progeny, hundreds of times more than they'd enjoy without human assistance. This is all Darwin cares about. The majority of animals reared for slaughter live on factory farms. Economically it makes the most sense to have the most animals in the smallest space, which means dozens or hundreds of animals are crammed together with little room to move. Many of them never even see the sky. All they see is the other animals around them. From an animal's perspective, why is that situation preferable than if their numbers were far fewer in the absence of human-inflicted exploitation? Which is better, having one child and treating them with love and care, or having a dozen children and subjecting them to neglect and abuse?
So the question isn't "can they talk?" or "can they reason?" nor "can they suffer?" The question is should we care? The Golden Rule of ethics is "don't do unto others what you wouldn't want them to do to you". There is no implicit "because doing so may provoke them to respond in kind". Just as the reason a truly ethical person avoids wrongdoing isn't to avoid the punishment it will likely incur, the reason they follow the Golden Rule isn't just for the sake of enlightened self-interest. If they did, they would discard the rule when those their actions affect are unable to retaliate. So the Golden Rule doesn't just apply between equals; rather, it demands that you inquire as to how you would want to be treated were you in the other's situation and they in yours. The version of Darwinism you are apparently promoting implies that if we can do something, there is no reason why we shouldn't. In other words, Might Makes Right. Of course animals are unlikely to rise up against us or to seek revenge for our exploitation of them, but that fact provides no moral pretext for perpetuating such exploitation.
To me the animal rights cult reminds me of nothing if not a bobo version of the anti-abortion cult. They share the common fanatical features of deceit, aggressive trespass, and other violence. "Cult" is a rather vague and poorly defined term. Many views that are now orthodox were once only held or promoted by a tiny minority, and were considered radical and extreme simply for being minority positions. But to provide as impartial an understanding of the term "cult" as possible, consider the following thought experiment. Imagine you've just arrived on Earth from another planet. You discover that some of the inhabitants just eat what naturally grows, whereas others drink the breast milk of another species, and eat the waste product of the menstrual cycle of another. Which behaviour would you feel more inclined to label as being cult-like? Humans artifically inseminate, genetically modify, mutilate and slaughter animals on an industrial scale. And that really prohibits any attempt to compare human dietary practices to a lion eating a zebra. It couldn't be further removed from what you see in the natural world.
It's true that some vegans engage in silly stunts, but that is to draw attention to themselves. You know what they say, there's no such thing as bad publicity. I don't think it justifies you labelling the movement as a cult. If you apply any of our normal moral standards in this debate, veganism invariably comes out as the most fair and rationale position, and carnism as the more radical and extreme one. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 19:30, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Again, why should I care if a chicken ever sees the sun? I very simply do not have a problem with factory farming. If we are supposed to care about animal body emisssions as a climate threat, a claim I am very dubious of given the people who make it and their history of deceit and bullying, containment is job 1. Moving the operations indoors is the obvious first step.
More importantly, when people's rights and choices are under attack from fanatics, no concession can be made. That's just appeasement, and its only effect is to leave you in a weaker position when confronted with the next round of demands.
In the current environment, even animal welfare is off the table. It is important to emphasiz the fact that animals are property and that their owners can do as they please with their property. Caring about an animal's fee-fees is a concession we can't make at ths time. This whole rack of nonsense is for sheltered city dwellers who have been shielded from the facts of life. Everybody ought to have the experience of raising an animal to market size and then killing it with their own hands, plucking or skinning it and dressing it for the table. I pity a generation to sheltered and squeamish to even clean a fish. Animals don't observe the Golden Rule, and ae simply outside its scope. Animals cannot be the objects of any moral duties. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 13:36, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
Again, why should I care if a chicken ever sees the sun?
You are apparently either a moral nihilist or have fundamentally misunderstood the nature of ethics. If someone tells you to do your moral duty and you respond "but why should I? what's in it for me?" you have completely misapprehended the goal of ethics. It's not about what's best just for you. All suffering has negative moral value.
a claim I am very dubious of given the people who make it and their history of deceit and bullying
It's not just vegans making this claim. It is a well established scientific fact. Methane is many times more powerful as a greenhouse gas than CO2. The majority of deforestation is to clear land for agriculture. Animal agriculture contributes more to climate change than the entire global transportation system. Climate change is of course strangling the global food supply and contributing to armed conflict, habitat destruction and ecological collapse. But if you're determined to bury your head in the sand when faced with all of this because you like the taste of cheese too much, no-one can stop you.
There are actually far more vegans than you've anticipated. It's just that most aren't at all vocal about it. So of course you'll associate the entire movement with the minority who are. It just seems like you're desperately scrabbling for an excuse by trying to draw attention away from your own choices and onto the behavior of certain vegans you find objectionable. But consider this. They are challenging the morality of your lifestyle choices. This only makes you feel uncomfortable because you are unable to defend those choices. You could take that as a sign that you need to change. But I guess it's much easier to act as if it's the vegans that are the problem.
when people's rights and choices are under attack from fanatics, no concession can be made
Your job here is to establish that purchasing and consuming animal products is morally defensible. Then and only then can you assert that you therefore have a right to do it. Trying to reframe yourself as the victim here is ludricous, and is just a psychological defense mechanism to avoid having to confront the uncomfortable truth about where your food comes from.
In the current environment, even animal welfare is off the table
You mean this whole business with coronavirus? The pandemic that only started due to factory farming? It's clear that humanity's exploitation of animals isn't just other-destructive but self-destructive. If humans are really so stubborn that even a global pandemic won't persuade them to change their ways, then I guess they're just too stupid for their own good.
It is important to emphasiz the fact that animals are property and that their owners can do as they please with their property.
Yes, legally they are property. But just because they are doesn't mean they should be. Otherwise you could defend human slavery in the same way. Had you been born 200 years earlier, would you have been an apologist for slavery, or an abolitionist?
Animals don't observe the Golden Rule, and ae simply outside its scope.
That doesn't follow. Infants and certain people with intellectual disabilities are just as unable to follow the Golden Rule. Does that mean they are outside its scope? Like I said, moral value is determined by the ability to suffer and experience pleasure, not by the ability to reason.
Animals cannot be the objects of any moral duties
Why? Imagine you saw someone abusing a dog in public. Would you intervene, or at least call the police? Or would you just shrug and walk on by? If the latter, then you're a psychopath. But if the former, then you're a hypocrite (for anyone who's not a vegan).
I think you should try admitting to yourself that it all comes back to your stomach. People are so dependent on meat they are desperate for its consumption to be morally justified, which is why they apply moral standards they never would in any other setting ("lions though", "desert island though", "bred for slaughter though" etc.). This is similar to the way drug addicts will say anything to justify their behavior to others and to themselves, and try and convince themselves that they're actually engaging in moral reasoning, when in fact it's all just motivated reasoning. For example, if I were to assert without any context "the actions of wild animals are a good basis for human morality", everyone would recognise that assertion for the absurdity that it is. But the taste of meat apparently renders its absurdity invisible to us. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 17:36, 24 June 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I don't have to justify anything, morally or otherwise. I'm not the one who's decided that the way the genus Homo has lived since it hunted on the African plains is somehow immoral, and that seeks to browbeat the entire human race into conformity with a newly invented 'morality'.

And for nearly forty years we've endured one cult of deceitful bullies blockading and invading facilities, using false confidences and similar trickery to make propaganda, and falsifying images when they can't, all because of some misplaced sentimentality. While I breathe I will do what I can to prevent the rise of another moralistic cult that acts the same way.

And when people compare actual human slaves to pigs and chickens, the only response that deserves is the back of the hand. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 04:06, 25 June 2020 (UTC)

Also, I'll put it out there that, given our evolutionary history, contrary to popular belief it's really not so hard to kill an animal. Pull the trigger, lower the ax, or spear it good, and you're done, and if it's that or death from starvation there's no hesitation. I'm not in the business of telling vegetarians/vegans they can't live that way themselves, although pernicious anemia is one hell of a way to go, but that's their decision and I have no problem with mine. There are plenty of species that are invasive, and eating them makes it easier to cull them (wild boar sausage is a personal favorite of mine), so the idea it's always bad to kill animals because of the environment doesn't pass the laugh test. And there are plenty of human-centric reasons to stop a random person abusing a dog; that tends to make dogs more aggressive and significantly increases the risk of said dog injuring or killing another person, so intervening is in my own interest. Standard farm animals are the same, they taste better when properly taken care of so I have a vested interest in them being reasonably well treated (and where I live such meat is readily available, it does make a difference). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 05:01, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I don't have to justify anything, morally or otherwise
Just making sure, you are a law-abiding citizen, correct? Do you generally get on with your friends, colleagues, and others in your acquaintance? Please tell me the only reason you obey the law isn't to avoid punishment, or that the only reason you aren't always abusive to people is because you don't want them to treat you similarly in return. If you only live in accordance with the most basic moral norms contingently for the sake of your own self-interest, you need to check your morality. Your comment here just amounts to an admission that you are unable to defend your choices, so you instead just assert without reason or argumentation that you don't have to. It's just an evasive manoeuvre, or to put it less eloquently, a cop-out.
I'm not the one who's decided that the way the genus Homo has lived since it hunted on the African plains is somehow immoral, and that seeks to browbeat the entire human race into conformity with a newly invented 'morality'
There is nothing "newly invented" about it. The philosophical thread underlying veganism goes back to ancient India. Compassion for all sentient life and thinking that cruelty is wrong are not novel principles. But that's really all there is to ethical veganism. It's just that for the majority of humans throughout history eating meat was a survival necessity – past tense. It's true that we've been eating meat for thousands of years, but longevity does not imply morality. We've also only been factory farming and eating processed meat for a few decades, which is destroying our health, the environment, and causing immense suffering to billions of animals – so now seems like a pretty good time to stop.
And when people compare actual human slaves to pigs and chickens, the only response that deserves is the back of the hand
There was no attempt to morally compare human slavery to animal exploitation. All I said was that the same logic you used to try and defend one could also be used to defend the other. Try asking yourself why you care so much about humans and so little about animals. As I've argued, there's no valid difference between the two that would justify treating the latter with such radically different moral standards. It's interesting that you think a moral comparison between human and animal slavery is unwarranted, but a similar comparison between early primitive humans hunting to survive and you buying steak at the supermarket is totally valid. It is just as ridiculous as trying to justify omnivorism in the developed world by citing the actions of wild animals.
And for nearly forty years we've endured one cult of deceitful bullies blockading and invading facilities, using false confidences and similar trickery to make propaganda, and falsifying images when they can't, all because of some misplaced sentimentality. While I breathe I will do what I can to prevent the rise of another moralistic cult that acts the same way.
<sigh> I already explained why I felt your use of the term "cult" is improper here. Yet still you persist. Just try and abstract yourself from the culture in which you were raised and you'll see that there's nothing extreme or radical about trying to minimise the harm you cause to other living beings. If you disagree with the way that some of them are spreading their message, then I understand why you feel some resistance. But you have effectively admitted you are unable to argue in any way against that message, and ultimately the only reason you are so opposed to it is because it threatens the freedom you currently enjoy to pursue your own selfish pleasures. So please stop trying to portray yourself as some sort of moral hero who is only trying to protect his and others rights against dangerous new ideas. You only need to read up the thread to understand why that narrative won't fly when presented to anyone with half a brain. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 14:57, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
@The Blade of the Northern Lights
contrary to popular belief it's really not so hard to kill an animal. Pull the trigger, lower the ax, or spear it good, and you're done
Have you ever killed an animal yourself? If you have, did it not struggle to get away? Even if you're using something as efficient as a captive bolt gun, most animals are intelligent enough to know what's coming and won't stay still unless physically restrained. If we're naturally designed to eat meat, why do we need to use tools to kill the animals we eat? Natural predators, after all, use only their natural weaponry – tooth and claw.
and if it's that or death from starvation there's no hesitation
But in your case it isn't, so you can't appeal to that as justification. There is a reason why the meat industry tries to conceal the truth about how animals are raised and slaughtered, and why slaughterhouse workers have some of the highest rates of depression, PTSD, substance abuse and suicide of any profession. There is a conflict between the animalistic urges we feel, such as the urge to consume animal flesh, and our innate compassion and sense of right and wrong which aim to restrain those urges.
I'm not in the business of telling vegetarians/vegans they can't live that way themselves, although pernicious anemia is one hell of a way to go, but that's their decision and I have no problem with mine
I've often seen omnivores try to employ this tactic, i.e. "I respect your decision not to abuse animals, so why can't you respect my decision to abuse animals?"Wikipedia (I'm paraphrasing). You need to demonstrate that your position is morally justified. Then you can claim that vegans are at fault for failing to respect it. And I think I'd rather die of pernicious anemia than coronorary heart disease, cancer, stroke, type 2 diabetes or any of the other myriad health problems associated with meat consumption.
There are plenty of species that are invasive, and eating them makes it easier to cull them (wild boar sausage is a personal favorite of mine), so the idea it's always bad to kill animals because of the environment doesn't pass the laugh test
Bit of a strawman there. I don't see anyone claiming that meat eating is always harmful to the environment. In the majority of actual cases, however, it is, due to the scale and manner in which we raise livestock. In any case that is only one argument for veganism. So just because eating meat may have no negative consequences for the environment in specific cases is no license to engage in its consumption generally, or in any other scenario, even if you ignore the ethical objections based on the suffering it causes to the animals themselves.
And there are plenty of human-centric reasons to stop a random person abusing a dog; that tends to make dogs more aggressive and significantly increases the risk of said dog injuring or killing another person, so intervening is in my own interest
But your own self-interest isn't a good basis for your personal morality. Is the only reason you don't commit crime because you don't want to go to jail? This is a dangerous foundation for any ethical system, as it is easy to think of cases where refraining from preventing unnecessary and unjust cruelty, or even engaging in such cruelty yourself, to animals or otherwise, would have no negative repercussions for you or for humans in general. If the intention of the abuser was to kill the dog, for example, and there were no other witnesses.
Standard farm animals are the same, they taste better when properly taken care of so I have a vested interest in them being reasonably well treated
That isn't generally true. Of course there will be better quality meat available from an animal who has been well-fed, but animals are often not allowed to exercise for the same reason. Pigs, for example, often spend their whole lives in farrowing crates so narrow they can't even turn around. If your neighbour were keeping a dog in similar conditions, you should call the police and have them arrested. And like before, your own egoism is not a good basis for ethics, whose goal is the common collective good, not that of any individual or even any particular species.
By the way, Wikipedia defines a "concern troll"Wikipedia as "a false flag pseudonym created by a user whose actual point of view is opposed to the one that the troll claims to hold". What specifically have I said that leads you to doubt that I genuinely adhere to the principle of ethical veganism? Please don't write such nonsense as "humans can only get B12 from meat" and then accuse me of being a troll. 81.103.37.86 (talk) 16:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Way to go, BoN. Keep at it. Oxyaena Harass 18:22, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
I find it disturbing to see the arbitrary psychological detachment omnivores apply on animal (acting like it's fine to treat them like a dusty game console and treating them well is purely so the house is kept clean or if you mistreat animals it will make you hurt other humans and that's why mistreating other animals is bad) to justify killing or mistreating them. Other animals aren't all that "different" from humans, we constantly underestimate what they are. I am an omnivore. I've seen my share of cute chicken videos where chickens are acting extremely affectionate to their owners. I have a pet cockatiel and thrown peanuts at American crows. Even the bug dismemberment is hard to watch. I know that eating meat is difficult moral question to me. I hope humanity moves toward lab-grown meat since a lot of my favorite foods use meat. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 19:10, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Speak for yourself. I don't go out of my way to kill animals, but I've done so before (when people use the cruelly named "humane mouse traps" I make them watch me use a hammer to finish it) and I don't find it difficult at all. And do tell me what other natural source of B12 exists, until modern tinkering that wasn't possible; not hard to see why people are still inclined towards eating what hundreds of thousands of years selected for. If you want to do it that way, it's fine, no one has yet explained why I should follow your (generic your) standards. Have fun talking to yourselves from here on out. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:48, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Factory farming is good. Industrial meat production ensures an adequate supply of cheap food for people. Choosing between ending the suffering of non sentient beings or continuing to ensure the ability for common people to get protein intake affordably is no choice for me at all. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 20:13, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Also I like to eat borgar. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 20:15, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
@DuceMoosolini The scientific consensus is that animals are sentient, the difference between humans and other animals is one of degree, not kind. Oxyaena Harass 20:41, 25 June 2020 (UTC)
Availability of meat is correlated with how rich a nation is. Meat isn't the most affordable commodity but I do think meat has a lot of nutrients going for it that would take a ton of vegetables to make up for. But most people here can afford to cut down on meat. Also, the nonhuman animals are certainly sentient. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario! 21:08, 25 June 2020 (UTC)