Talk:Veganism

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Needs more on freeganism[edit]

Freeganism(Wikipedia link) goes beyond just "don't buy dead animals". It's more of an anti-consumerism pro-humanitarianism movement than a set of dietary rules. It goes beyond Veganism, also caring about the environment and treatment of workers. Also, according to that WP article, most Freegans don't eat or use animal products. Those who do are sometimes called "meagans" (meat+freegan). --Chupi 02:24, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Dumpster diving as a philosophy? I'm there, living it, but not eating it! [more detail please] ħumanUser talk:Human 03:37, 27 August 2008 (EDT)

Beekeeping vital?[edit]

I'm not going to take it out, but does anyone have a source on the idea of beekeeping being vital to agriculture? I've been looking and I can't find anything. Sake Fueled (talk) 22:28, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

Have you been following the colony collapse disorder issue for the last few years? There are quite a few self- or wind-pollinated crops, but quite a lot more that still require bees to do the pollination. CCD is a problem because a lot of these crops require beekeepers with itinerant hives, which are the ones that are the worst affected by the problem, and feral bee populations simply aren't reliable enough to pollinate enough crops to feed everybody. (Then again, I'd have thought this was elementary school-level science that shouldn't need documentation because it's blindingly obvious.) EVDebs (talk) 00:20, 24 September 2010 (UTC)
I have observed immense variability in the local bees playing in some of my trees and shrubs over the years. If my cherry flowers early - which is predictable based on weather - they aren't around. Professional beekeepers are in high demand at flowering time for orchards, and many other crops. ħumanUser talk:Human 02:06, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I thought...[edit]

...veganism was only about diet, just like vegetarianism, only that veganism did not allow any animals or animal products to be eaten. The Heidelberg Kid (talk) 00:13, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it could be both an entire lifestyle or just a diet depending on how dedicated you are. Sam Tally-ho! 00:14, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
AceModerator 00:18, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Meat Gives You Cancer/Is the reason why we aren't healthy.[edit]

There is an enormous amount of material devoted to how a diet that includes meat gives people cancer, and that humans aren't 'supposed' to eat meat. Much of it professes that the Western Diet is killing millions, playing off of fears of drugs, obesity, and cancer, and often (incorrectly) concludes returning to a 'whole-food plant-based diet' (another way to say veganism that doesn't contain Green Panic) as the solution. This diet is incorrectly associated with Asian countries, playing the 'we are stupid white man and the wisdom of ancient eastern peasants is exotic and therefore better than us' card. I recently had the displeasure of seeing a documentary called Forks over Knives, which was basically MADE of this tripe, supported by the findings of two scientists that make it look more legit. However, the documentary misrepresents their work on a pretty shocking level, yet I hear people repeating ideas just like it all the time. For a good debunking of such tripe, here's a very thorough and reputable blog that does it. ±Knightoftldrsig.pngKnightOfTL;DRgarrulous en guerre 17:24, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Mmmm, tripe. Redchuck.gif ГенгисmutatingModerator 08:49, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Refs[edit]

Can anyone fix reference #4? I can't see what's screwing up the formatting. Redchuck.gif ГенгисmutatingModerator 08:47, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Done. There was a hard line-break in the text. rpeh •TCE 08:55, 21 June 2012 (UTC)

Milk and cancer[edit]

Apparently, drinking milk can increase your risk of developing prostate cancer. Can anyone confirm this?--Krejtalk 03:30, 16 March 2013 (UTC)

The Mayo Clinic is a pretty reputable source, and the claim you mention is already clarified and put in perspective in the article. The relevant text states that "In studies, men who ate the most dairy products — such as milk, cheese and yogurt — each day had the highest risk of prostate cancer." Remember that correlation does not imply causation, and the article goes on to state that "study results have been mixed, and the risk associated with dairy products is thought to be small." There you go. Also note that there are many potential risk factors associated with all cancers, including prostate cancer. The article you cite is just giving a list of general recommendations and is very open and honest about the strength of each claim and the proportion of each potential risk. Based on the presentation of the evidence and facts in the article, I'd say anyone trying to use the dairy claim or similar claims relating to prostate cancer (or really any cancer, as none of the reputable sources I've found have assigned diet anything beyond a complementary role in cancer prevention, instead giving general advice such as eating more fruits and vegetables) as a fear tactic to push some special diet or scare you out of consuming a particular food is either misinformed or a charlatan. The One They Call Mars (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2014 (UTC)

No animals were harmed?[edit]

Plenty of animals would continue to be harmed indefinitely, even following an overnight worldwide vegan switch-over. Habitat destruction, pollution (fertilizer runoff, for starters), pest control (whether with chemicals, traps, domestic animals [like our favorite invasive species -kitties] or firearms), farm implements shredding everything from arthropods to baby deer, etc.. Veganism totally rules if you're a livestock species, but it doesn't do you much good if you're not. That's not to say it's not a better choice than blindly eating tons of whatever, but to say no animals were harmed is way false. No livestock was harmed? Sure.

Shane8005 (talk) 07:10, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Keep in mind that producing food from animals also generally require a lot more land than producing plant food such that the number of wild animals being harmed by growing crops is also minimized by a vegan diet. Kamizushi (talk) 04:19, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Except that livestock animals eat tons of stuff not suited for human consumption (chaff, hay, straw, silage, grass, scraps, byproducts of food-processing), or that people don't really want to eat even if they can digest it (sprouted grains and legumes), or that they don't buy because it doesn't look or taste particularly nice (because they're spoilt and not desperately hungry, at least in countries where veganism is fashionable, which are suspiciously all wealthy). Basically acting as trash-dumps and converting low-quality into high-quality food (at least from the human point of view). In short: Livestock doesn't eat the same things you do. That's a central point vegetarians and vegans consistently ignore or gloss over, if they are aware of it at all; generally, they don't really know as much about farming, biology, animals' needs, nutrition and human health as they believe they do. You should really talk to real farmers (like our friend below) – they have no reason to waste good food and arbitrarily torture the animals they keep, for exactly those cold hard economic motives (wasting precious resources is expensive) which vegans believe make them do exactly that. (To anticipate a possible objection: Yes, livestock animals are fed highly nutritious fodder – such as grains or potatoes, and even animal-derived fodder – suitable for humans too, as pellets to speed up growth, but not exclusively that kind of fodder all their life; again, that would just not be economic. And by the way, "organic" farms don't necessarily engage in superior practices.) --91.7.22.170 (talk) 21:15, 17 January 2016 (UTC)


Thought I jump in here - I'll put my bias out front as I'm a Canadian livestock farmer and obviously have a interest on one side of this topic, but important to note many of the farmers I' know have wrestled with these ethical issues and still end up raising animals. The ethical lines are not as clear as some think. Land use is a good example. Livestock are often grazed on marginal land while better quality land is reserved for crops. My farm demonstrates this. Of the 600 acres we farm, 400 are used for grazing sheep and 200 are used for crops. The crop land is mostly class 1 and class 2 agricultural land while the 400 grazing acres are class 4 to class 6. By just looking at these raw values, I have twice as much land in livestock as crops; however, the poorer quality land would never sustain any crop product and really can only produce food by allow some sort of ruminant to harvest forages. However, to get enough forage off marginal land, you need to graze a lot of it and as a result, acreage devoted to livestock tends to get pushed up and when compared directly to crop land, will always look larger. You would need to compare crop use vers livestock use on identical classes of agricultural land to get any meaningful values and even then it would be hard to create a fair comparison – for example, a really wet year might drown out my crops but would favor grass growth, thus creating a bias towards the livestock, while in other years the opposite would be true.

Unfortunately, the information well has been so poisoned by questionable data on both sides of this issue that even with a lot of first-hand experience, I find it hard to figure exactly where to draw the ethical lines. — Unsigned, by: Loliver / talk / contribs 18:24 (UTC) 2014 Feb 2

Criticisms[edit]

There is a real disconnect between the tone of "claims", and the tone of "criticism". In claims, there is a tone of authority that this diet "for sure" lowers all these things like cholesterol. We aren't saying "the claim is that they do", but really saying they do. Then in criticism, we jump into this wishy washy "well... it might have some benefit". I know little to nothing about the bennies and risks of veganism, but we aught to figure out if we think it's good, bad, or don't have an opinion. cause right now, we have all three in one article.Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 16:24, 21 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't like the use of the word 'all' in the current version of this section. I suggest cutting both instances of the word, since it requires a rather extreme amount of confidence to use. Nullahnung (talk) 17:15, 21 August 2013 (UTC)
This conversation is a year old but I agree and went ahead and did it. I also added that they "can" have "some" health benefits, because a poorly balanced vegan diet doesn't seem likely to produce overall health benefits.--The General talk to me 02:38, 13 September 2014 (UTC)

Social superiority[edit]

Q: How can you tell if someone is a vegan?
A: Don't worry, they'll tell you!
— Unsigned, by: 220.233.112.168 / talk 01:58, 15 June 2015‎

Haven't heard that one before. ;) (I guess you found the vegan. :P) TofuTyphoon (talk) 00:34, 18 June 2015 (UTC)
Social superiority? I am vegan, because i think i am not superior in any way. Why is it fine, to stand for the rights of womans and kids, while it leads to such comments, when someone do the very same with other species? Because humans feel attacked, when others make them aware about their own behavior. It is the same with each field, in which humans stand for fairness and equality: Other humans think, its natural, normal and necessary to kill, exploit and quash others. Since they grow up with this believe and because they fear, there is no other way. I think this rational wiki is fair and - öhm - rational enough to focus on serious work, which is in my humble opinion free from provocative comments towards social justice movements. Thanks in advance ShalokShalom (talk)

Question[edit]

Some people claim that we aren't really omnivores or that to think of us as omnivores is somehow a misunderstanding. How much truth is there to this claim? Burkean (talk) 14:34, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

As a non-expert armed with a search engine, it seems there is very little merit to this claim. However, even if it *would* be true, it doesn't really matter as far as the veg*ism cause is concerned IMHO, and is a good example of "appeal to nature". Humans obviously *are* capable of eating meat, and what our ancestors ate doesn't really say much about the health (or lack of it) of the "modern" diet. Carpetsmoker (talk) 15:47, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
That's reassuring. I just can't do the only veggies/fruit/grain thing. Burkean (talk) 16:12, 5 October 2015 (UTC)
No one is forcing you to. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 13:55, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
No, Emerald. I was trying to be a responsible human being, make the right choices, and get the most out of life. There's no point in eating your way into an early death. I guess it's about striking the right balance between permitting as many foods as you healthily can, and restricting those which you need to. I don't really see how I've said anything here which you would feel the need to criticize. Burkean (talk) 18:27, 8 October 2015 (UTC)
My sources are mostly in german, i think this graphic show it clear: http://funkyimg.com/view/2nEuu Here is to add, that there is a difference between the (hunting) behavior and the anatomical-physiological facts. Hunts can be the result from a lot of different reasons and if we would be born hunters, would be the keeping of pets a difficult challenge.. ;) Of course does this say a lot about the the impact on our health, since our bodys are specifically optimized to a fruitarian nutrition since millions of years. The huge amount of pro-vegan studys underline this. As the graphic shows, is our body far away from omnivorous mammals and while some might think, that apes eat a lot of meat, makes it up less than two percent of their overall diet in the case of chimpanzees, according to Jane Goodall, which is well known as the world leading scientist in this issue. Bonobos, who are genetically so near to us as no other species, are frugivores, their meat intake is even lower as that one from chimpanzees and roots - which counts for apes in general - mostly in emotional drain, which includes famines and social disbalance. In 1979, Professor Alan Walker, a Johns Hopkins University paleoanthropologist, reported that preliminary studies of unmarked tooth enamel in early hominoids suggested that pre-human ancestors apparently had a diet of mostly fruit. I can translate a copious inspection about this topic, when somebody is really interested. Also the myth of meat as an essential nutrition source for the development of our brain is debunked: Dinosaurs like (the precursors of) Crocodilians live since at least 200 Million years only from meat and their brains are quite small, while there are a lot of intelligent, vegan living animals with a great brain-body weight ratio, like Elephants, while i like to mention, that recent studys with ants and bees show, that the complexity of brains are an more important factor to tell something about intellectual capability of an animal, as the size is. I already respect that in my declarations. Current science think that the development and usage of tools, as well as social interaction, including the development and usage of verbal language count as the key components for huge potential of human intelligence. I hope this is clear, otherwise, just ask. :) ShalokShalom (talk)

There is a rebbutal to that graph found here and I am also working on an article about it.Also chimps are voracious hunters and bonbos are omnivorus although they don't eat a lot of monkeys like chimps do. We are not comparable to dinosaurs as we are omnivorous unlike Dinos who were carnivorous. Comradegreen (talk) 13:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Conclusion section[edit]

Ignoring the grammar and spelling, this is a talk page level edit and/or blog response to the main page. Not only is it deeply logically fallacious, but it also raises suggestions what should be added or why certain arguments haven't been explored in the article yet (once again I believe this to be debate material first and foremost). I'll suggest a deletion but instead of mentioning it on the main page I'll wait until someone has made qualitative changes and edits to the points raised or lists them right here. Otherwise I won't hesitate to revert. Sincerely, a skeptical vegan. NameThatNobodyTakes () 11:09, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I already reverted it because it belongs on the talk page. Also, the user in question has already been warned multiple times not to make crappy edits. We'll see if he plays ball, or if he gets himself vandal binned instead. Either way, problem solved. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:30, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't see why it is "deeply fallacious". You seem to not know what argument from ignorance is (see [proof is presented]). And yes there are some suggestions about what should be added, because some arguments should probably be more detailed like animal right even if it has its own article. As for my "crappy edit" (I am not a native English speaker) I have been ""warned"" one time (maybe two) and other said they were fine enough, but I am happy you join in (an improvement of the article with a proper English from someone else is fine). Maybe the article is good enough (he is, now less ambiguous)...or should it be elaborate on some point to make the case stronger (or weaker)? like animal right, socio-economical consequences etc... Sincerely--Arall (talk) 14:45, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I know what the fallacy is that's why I pointed it out - you presented no proof in your edit (you can read it again above if you forgot the content) and you didn't respond to my second objection. Sure you can find studies which proof that a considerate vegan diet is healthier than an inconsiderate omnivore one. Did I name one of those studies or list a reference to them in my previous sentence? No, I didn't present a single concrete proof beyond making a vague authoritative claim and therefore would never add it to the article. Do you now see where the problem lies with your edit? Trust me, I have been there before defending veganism from a no-evidence-backed point of view in the real world. Nobody will take you seriously in these instances, which is correct just like we shouldn't take others seriously who behave similarly.
The suggestions should have been raised on the talk page. I agree that the article could explore more arguments (and counter-arguments). But these should be elaborately and fairly presented with references in a non-fallacious way and not as a hastily hacked together paragraph.
As for the bad English accusations: I think nobody would object to it if your edits were good and other members would correct them if they agreed with the content. As a native speaker myself who is kinda outta practice due to the lack of English speakers in my area, my edits usually have few errors which get corrected later when others spot them. NameThatNobodyTakes () 16:30, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
ok. (and don't worry in the real world, as I did in is this article, I like to scientifically backed my point of view)--Arall (talk) 17:18, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
@NameThatNobodyTakes Goodpost.gif
@Arall I'm not a native speaker, either (I'm Swedish, born and raised). That being said, you aren't wrong to just want to help (that's good!). And indeed, the article is in use of improvement. But NameThatNobodyTakes explains perfectly how the help has to look if it's going to be of any use (which I define as: going to be allowed to stay). We're not deaf to the benefits of veganism, and several good editors — such as NameThatNobodyTakes — are vegan themselves. As you will see, he's not exactly being persecuted for this. But that being said, like any diet, veganism isn't a panacea. It requires planning to be a vegan without health risk (as with any diet), and every claim needs to be backed up by solid science if we're to respect it here (as with any diet). We can't descend into "vegan woo" (said in comparison to "cannabis woo" - an herb we otherwise support, just with a fierce resistance to the simplifications and the pseudoscience). And as is evident on this talkpage — please don't take this the wrong way — you have to make sure your article contributions are grammatically sound. We have no need for additions that depend on the idea that other people spellcheck and/or rewrite them to make them intelligible. Thank you in advance. All the best, Reverend Black Percy (talk) 17:25, 4 August 2016 (UTC)
I don't know why you state your non-native level of English. "That being said, you aren't wrong to just want to help (that's good!)." oooh thank you. "we are not deaf to vegan" ok in the case of you assumed some intents on my part don't worry, I see that the scientifically backed points that I add in the article wasn't rejected (so I see RW is not deaf and even if they were rejected I would not assumed deafness). "he is not persecuted" whew!. Yes like any diet (the omnivore diet include) it require planning to be healthy (for some more than other though). You insist many times on my grammar so yeah I get the idea (I knew even before that I should be as "grammaticaly sound" as possible), thank you. I don't see many way to see it so I also hope I didn't get it the wrong way. I deeply apologize with all my heart for my ignorance in English. Thank you for your benevolent guidance--Arall (talk) 18:20, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

I will maybe add a little in this article and I can play the devil advocate if needed, but it would be better if someone with a proper rebuttal actually believe what he said. But before this we can make RW view less ambiguous and put something like my conclusion and REPEAT the scientific sources that I (and other) already gave with the premisses/arguments in this article (it may also motivate informed detractors to participate). so something like this :

Even though this article mostly touch the nutritional argument, if we add the other arguments briefly presented because they have their own article (eg. personhood/animal right, socio-economical consequences on the human animal[1]) and the absence of a proper rebuttal (because we all have deficiencies and excess from a nutritional viewpoint, especially the omnivore[2] who add toxic compounds and no benefit with is diet.[3]), veganism seems rationnaly superior until proven otherwise. So if one want to act ethically one should and will be vegan.

It is a first modification, but it might be quicker if you give your own conclusion as a basis because you don't like mine for whatever reason (the English, the formulation, the content etc) we can also let this article as it is (ambiguous or not) and wait for more content. waiting for your suggestions, sincerly--Arall (talk) 12:05, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

  1. "Livestock and Climate Change"
  2. P. Appleby, A. Roddam, N. Allen, and T. Key. Comparative fracture risk in vegetarians and nonvegetarians in epic-oxford. Eur J Clin Nutr, 61(12):1400-1406, 2007.]
  3. "Chemicals in Meat Cooked at High Temperatures and Cancer Risk"

Arall's sources[edit]

Why don't you just list a few your best sources here (within reason; don't dump 10,000+ symbols of text please) and we can take a look a them? Without using <ref> tags please; just give us the titles and links in bullet form or something. All the best, Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:13, 6 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't understand what you ask, sources for what? the veganism article has already many sources. I already gave some sources and I can make the effort to give you more if you have a specific claim and if needed (the sources in the article would not be enough to settle the issue because of a significant critic)--Arall (talk) 12:51, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
You just used a <references> tag above to insert three sources, did you not? My point is, your english is not clear enough to have your additions stick in the article. That being said, provide us with direct links to particular sources you may want investigated and/or added, if you have any like that, and we could look at them. That's all. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:51, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
the balise "references" was already edit before you post your topic (you can see the fossil record). Some of my additions "stick" already in this article, but this one may not be clear enough however it doesn't have to be my formulation. Why you still ask for sources I do not understand, the sources in the vegan article already settle the issue of veganism being rationnaly superior, we just have to acknowledge it by concluding what follow from the claims (already backed by science) that was written by people on this RW article. But ok I understand, it seem fine enough so I will wait for more content (or think of some content to add myself) before making RW view less ambiguous (even though the pro-vegan arguments are made and the criticism fails).--Arall (talk) 16:35, 6 August 2016 (UTC)
I took some time out to check all references and yes indeed two of the sources you listed were already in the article.
The source which was new (the second, link to article here if anyone wants to check) says that an inconsiderate vegan diet has a 30% higher fracture rate and concludes that vegans should therefore be aware in intaking calcium-rich sources (the reference was just added by me, thanks for the valuable article!). We should be careful, or better yet totally abstain from calling a diet "rationally superior" when you're awfully likely to run into issues if you don't take the time to become acquainted with nutrition, especially when we supply sources which mention the dangers! Therefore I'm kinda confused why you believe your second source consolidated your point when in fact it does the opposite.
As for the article itself, the first two sections paint a largely positive picture of the diet and even say that no matter which diet you have, you must take precautions in getting a sufficient amount of vitamins and minerals. The text is backed by studies from the previous two decades. Sure the article could go into more detail about environmental and ethical concerns but when it comes to diet the article does a great job and even supports your stance.
I really get the impression that your issue here is that you're simply appalled at the fact that the article has a criticisms section at all and therefore you believe it is important to have the last word on the matter (which means a "conclusion" section needs to be added at the end). Your main concern seems pushing your agenda instead of letting the evidence speak for itself. Our readers are hopefully smart enough to draw their own conclusion (and to mention it again, the article is already pro-vegan!). It's true that RW has a POV but this POV should be empiricist above all else, especially when it comes to health matters as we don't want to be responsible for people fucking themselves up if we spout a casual (or in the case of the removed paragraph, blatantly biased) recommendation.
But if you're still adament to basically insert "Veganism iz teh Azoth!!!1!" we can't help you here, I'm sorry and editors here, me included, will revert it everytime we should spot something of the sort. NameThatNobodyTakes () 18:02, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
the second sources wasn't new, I with, other sources, added to the article (so when you say you add it you repeat the references which is also good).
" We should be careful, or better yet totally abstain from calling a diet "rationally superior" when you're awfully likely to run into issues if you don't take the time to become acquainted with nutrition, especially when we supply sources which mention the dangers! Therefore I'm kinda confused why you believe your second source consolidated your point when in fact it does the opposite."
Yes this source consolidate my point in the article, which was: some vegan has deficiencies (what you call "inconsiderate diet") one of them is calcium but those deficiencies are shared with the omnivore diet (except B12) and the latter diet is even worse (when inconsiderate=usual deficiencies) because it has 5 more deficiencies. And vegan can remediate these deficiencies (if they eat the right vegan stuff) like omnivore, so the criticism to veganism fail because it is a critic that is broader than veganism and concern how to eat correctly (especially if you are inconsiderate omnivore).
I am sorry If I give you this impression of being appaled by the article having a criticisms section, in fact it is quite the contrary I find it quite weak hence my proposition of playing the devil advocate (but I prefer that someone else do it). And I am also Happy that people brought the issue of vegan death and deficiencies (I hope everybody knows this stuff) even though these reasons isn't enough to not be vegan (and there is reason to be vegan: antispecism, socio-economical...).
as written above my view is also "empiricist"( hence my scientificly backed claims in the article, that, maybe you right, don't repeat enough). I understand your critic and I will follow your worry and wait for more content or add it myself (scientifically backed as I already did) as I explain in my last post. Sincerly--Arall (talk) 18:54, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
As long as we can all agree on the simple fact that dietary- and nutritional science isn't black and white. Both meat and vegetables provide relatively exclusive health benefits, not all of which are perfectly simple to compensate for with supplements. You could be a poor-health vegan or a good-health meat eater, just as you could likewise be a good-health vegan or a poor-health meat eater. This isn't a comment on how those percentages lie; it's a broader statement about how it's possible to have a bad diet no matter what you do, and — annoyingly — it's possible for some people to have quite excellent health even while playing the odds on what they risk health-wise. You can't ever override an individual example with statistics. And just the same, an individual example cannot ever be treated as statistically useful. So there's aspects to all of this that we may well keep in mind. There are tons of dietary aspects to consider in nutrition. Just to name a literal drop in the ocean here, even among the stuff explicitly backed by evidence-based medicine. Food for thought (speaking of diets). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:38, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
We agree, though some studies (I post one in the article) shows that how the less you ate meat/fish (even ""quality"" one) the healthier it is. I am not sure that we can say that they both have exclusive health benefits (but "relatively" health benefits maybe if you think of the EPA/DHA intakes in vegans that don't eat non-sentient animals like oysters or don't think of algae because it is not really spread in their countries culture). But you right a meat-eater can still be in a good health (or smoking a little and be healthy). But maybe a non-nutritional rebuttal wouldn't fail (I don't think so but maybe :) ) --Arall (talk) 22:05, 7 August 2016 (UTC)
Most of the borderline Gish Gallop of "sources" (apparently not an uncommon tactic from absolutist vegans) given either do not support the claims made in the "diet" section, fail to account for additional variables (for example, comparison of whole-foods vegetarianism to the SAD), or are inconclusive. The remainder are the claims of well-known woo-peddlers such as Caldwell Esselstyn (and thus, can probably be safely discarded). The page, nonetheless, has become just short of a glowing endorsement of veganism—despite it still being (appropriately) classified as "food woo," and despite the vegetarian page still being appropriately skeptical. 47.208.65.188 (talk) 08:49, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Song For Vegans[edit]

What can you expect
From filthy little vegans?
Their whole entire race is like a curse!
Their food's a hellish threat
They're only good when dead
They're vermin, as I said
And worse
They're savages! Savages!
Barely even human
Savages! Savages!
Drive them from our shore!
They're not like you and me
Which means they must be evil
We must sound the drums of war!
They're savages! Savages!
Dirty shrieking devils!
Now we sound the drums of war!
— Unsigned, by: 96.244.93.114 / talk / contribs

How dare somebody else not like something I like? BicyclewheelToxic mowse.gif 10:41, 11 July 2017 (UTC)
Meta-dislike: the dislike of someone elses' supposedly invalid dislike (the argument being that said dislike stems 'merely' from the petty dislike of someone else's original dislike — in this case, of animal products). Reverend Black Percy (talk) 12:59, 11 July 2017 (UTC)

Are humans natural herbivores, or vegans?[edit]

— Unsigned, by: Kyle / talk / contribs
No, humans are not "natural herbivores." The word "natural" is largely meaningless; but, from a physiological standpoint, we're omnivores—no matter what you might have heard from the PCRM.

"Vegan" is...well, some of them will rage if I call it a diet, so I will instead refer to it as an ideological stance centered mainly around diet. At any rate: while the primary tenet of veganism is a strict vegetarian diet, going vegan doesn't magically transform you into a physiological herbivore. 47.208.65.188 (talk) 23:45, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

Recent edit war[edit]

I entirely agree that many vegans are sanctimonious pricks. They strike me as a mirror image of the anti-abortion cult. The point ought to be made somewhere in the article. Incidents of vegan bullying and terrorism are relevant. OTOH, simple name calling may not be enough. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 21:57, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

Vegan and animal rights racism[edit]

Is it or isn't it racist to liken pigs and chickens to Holocaust victims or slaves? I think it's obviously so.

Further examples could be mustered; the persecution by animal rightsers of Native Americans exercising treaty rights, or the persecution of Santeros to save chickens and the like. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 17:51, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't see how it's racist. It doesn't suggest people of certain races are inferior, nor is it discrimination or prejudice against other races. CowHouse (talk) 05:47, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
They are literally equating those people to animals, suggesting that they are inferior. There is also the extreme bad taste involved. - Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 15:29, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
They don't think animals are inferior to people. In fact, they have a word for that. CowHouse (talk) 15:46, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, we know the drill. Someone calls the animal-rights crowd on the carpet for comparing marginalized people to animals; they argue that people only feel insulted by dehumanization because they're "speciesist."

In other words: they've already got it neatly rationalized. So it may be more effective to frame what they're doing as trivializing bigotry by equating it with the existence of predatory animals. 47.208.65.188 (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2018 (UTC)

YouTube shooter[edit]

So how should this article address her? Smerdis of Tlön, LOAD "*", 8, 1. 02:34, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Smerdis of Tlön I'm not sure how we should, given that as far as I'm aware she was a disturbed individual who also happened to be a vegan and a Muslim, among other things. If she went down her path of distruction due to beliefs related to veganism it might be relevant to this article, or if it was caused by beliefs related to her faith it might be relevant to the article on Islam. I'm not sure there's more to the incident than that, though if I'm mistaken I would welcome the pertinent information. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 02:56, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

Opening para of "Diet" section[edit]

Is not rational, quoting the vegan proponents themselves and a dodgy study in PLoS ONE as support for "increasing" evidence, while dismissing H Hall in Science-Based Medicine as "a blogger". This is turning things on their head: the claim that veganism can "reverse" heart disease is a bit out there along with a load of other over-hyped health benefits of veganism.[1] 82.27.181.119 (talk) 05:51, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

  • It was apparently allowed to slide because the editor "provided sources." The trouble is that his "sources" were just this side of being a PCRM Gish-gallop. 47.208.65.188 (talk) 01:17, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

The entire "Vegan and animal rights jackassery" section[edit]

Is it really necessary to have a section dedicated entirely to someone's irrational, emotional outburst and personal vendetta? It seems that the whole section has one author, who clearly has an axe to grind and cherries to pick, but nothing worth of note to say. --31.11.140.15 (talk) 15:31, 30 June 2018 (UTC)

The first part is boring and unfunny, though the rest is more on-topic and more interesting. Are vegans any more boring and sanctimonious than 90% of obsessive special interest groups from raw-foodists to Brexiteers? And is it fair to compare them to anti-abortionists, when I'm not aware that vegans have actually killed any butchers? --Gospatric (talk) 10:46, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
They have adopted the tactics of attempted gross-out and blockading businesses. Like the anti-abortion cult, they have directed maudlin sentimentality at utterly inappropriate targets, then seem astounded and shocked when it turns out that nobody else cares. They seem mighty similar to me. FWIW, the sentence about vegan sanctimony was not added by me; I only moved it and attempted to substantiate it with examples. - Smerdis of Tlön, ɚ̥ɵʷê̬̏e̥̽̊˞ə̃̈ʼ . 20:14, 3 July 2018 (UTC)
"They have adopted the tactics of attempted gross-out and blockading businesses". Do you honestly think this represents all vegans? Let me put it another way. Think of all the extreme feminists. Like the ones that say "Video games appeal to the male fantasy" or that "Hugh Mungus" is "sexual harrasment". Do these mean that there should be a emotial outburst in the rationalwiki article for femenist saying how narcassistic feminists are? No. And there isn't. Instead, it says "Feminism, just like any other philosophy, has its vocal fanatics too." The Criticism of that section still stands. It is someone's emotional outburst and should be removed. — Unsigned, by: 2.30.85.105 / talk

NameTheTrait[edit]

To any carnist at RationalWiki: what makes it okay to kill animals for food but not humans? I'd love to see you guys lay out your problems with the argument in an article. Or better yet, here. — Unsigned, by: Zygote / talk / contribs y

Mostly because there is no such thing as 'speciesism', which is a stupid and made-up word for a stupid and made-up idea. Anyone expecting us to take 'speciesism' seriously needs a more intimate acquaintance with bedbugs. Chickens, pigs, and cows are not the equals of human beings. Only human beings, and no other animals, have rights. Likewise, there are no 'carnists', only morally aggressive crackpots. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 13:58, 20 August 2018 (UTC)
You are making yourself look extremely stupid by avoiding the point (Red herring). Name the trait does not require that animals have the same moral value as humans, it simply asks what trait in an animal justifies the killing and torture of animals for food. Just as women being weaker physically doesn't justify discriminating against them, animals being less intelligent/social/[insert any trait here] doesn't justify killing and torturing them. Here is a video by CosmicSkeptic on the issue - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1vW9iSpLLk . Please approach this issue with an open mind, maybe then you will change.— Unsigned, by: 2.30.85.105 / talk / contribs
To be blunt, if it were not for the resulting illnesses eating human meat would be a perfectly valid option, if a bit vulgar. Further, while I respect ComicSkeptic's opinions (I'm one of his subscribers) he isn't infallible, none of us are. Lastly, invoking his video the way you just did is an appeal to authority, which is a logical fallacy, thus sending you back to square one. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 12:55, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
As you may have noticed, your last post has been removed. I removed it because you edited my comment, something I strongly disagree with and view as unethical, not to mention just plain petty. You are of course free to add your comments back, but without editing mine in the process. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:12, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
I am sorry, I did not realize that what I did was that bad. I just thought that the word "belief" suited better, so I changed it, but in hindsight, I shouldn't have. — Unsigned, by: 2.30.85.105 / talk
On your talk page you say "This user believes that everyone is equal, regardless of race, religion or gender. ". Yet you think eating humans is perfectly okay if they don't cause diseases? — Unsigned, by: 2.30.85.105 / talk
Of course. When we die, our bodies become meat. That meat is eaten eventually, by animals (occasionally including other humans), by plants, or by microbes. And to be clear, I only operate under a practical belief that others are equal. From a more realistic standpoint, no, we are not all equal. Further, Ethical Veganism is unfortunately ideologically inconsistent and places great emphasis on animals (usually ones that are visually appealing to humans) but excluding the more fringe elements does not oppose the consumption of plants (which are living things, just not ones that most humans empathize with) and the slaying of microbes (most humans are indifferent to microscopic life, if they even think of it at all.) To be truly ideologically consistent, and to avoid nullifying their own ideals, Ethical Vegans would have to consume only synthetic nutrients, and drink only untreated water. Even these however, would still not live up to such lofty (and ridiculously high) standards, as the human body slays microscopic organisms via the digestive system and the immune system. To put it in short, Ethical Veganism ultimately relies on the flawed premise of Absolute Morality an archaic and impractical framework. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:59, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
"Of course. When we die, our bodies become meat. That meat is eaten eventually". No. That's not how it works. To obtain meat, you have to physically KILL the being otherwise it is inedible since it has died of a disease (yes, dying of old age is dying of a disease). This requires murder, so by eating human meat you are justifying murder.
"I only operate under a practical belief that others are equal. From a more realistic standpoint, no, we are not all equal. ". Yes. The reason racism/sexism is incorrect is the realization that these differences in race and sex does not mean discrimination of that race or sex is justifiable.
", Ethical Veganism is unfortunately ideologically inconsistent and places great emphasis on animals (usually ones that are visually appealing to humans) but excluding the more fringe elements does not oppose the consumption of plants (which are living things, just not ones that most humans empathize with) and the slaying of microbes (most humans are indifferent to microscopic life, if they even think of it at all.)" No. 1) Vegan diets kills less animals so it is ethically superior. Your argument a "Nirvana fallacy". It's like me saying that "Greenland is cold, lets move to Spain, its warmer" and you saying "Oh, it gets cold in Spain might as well stay in Greenland" - that argument simply doesn't work. You haven't give 2) There is a much bigger difference between insects and farm animals than there is between farm animals and humans. Farm animals has complex nervous systems, which allows them to suffer, but insects are barely sentient and definitely not self-aware, consisting of a very basic nervous system - they simply cannot suffer to the same extent. It's not an emotional aurgument based on "how cute they look", it's based off their capacity to suffer, and farm animals have one much higher than insects. Also, bacteria & don't have a nervous system at all and so literally cannot suffer. In our current factory farming industry, animals are tortured so they can be killed efficiently.
Let me add some numbers. 200 million animals are killed a day (~74 billion a year). This means we kill more animals in 1.5 years than humans have ever existed. See the scale of this operation? Yes, animals are morally worth less that humans, but the whole scale of the operation is why this is one of the biggest problems we have today. So lets assume that 1000 animals tortured and killed is just as bad as 1 human killed. 640 million humans have died in war. 740 billion animals are killed in 10 year (discluding marine life.) 740 billion / 1000 = 740 million. In 10 years, what the meat industry has done is already worse than war throughout all of history. AND that is assuming that an animal is worth 1/1000 of a human! Which is not true! This is why it is such a huge issue - and why people compare it to the holocaust & other such horrible events. Because it is that bad.
The way this rationalwiki page is so anti-vegan is bad. It completely misses the point of ethical veganism, and then goes on to complain about how "some vegans" are horrible people (as if that is not true of literally every ideology)
And I have not even covered the environmental effects. 15% of global greenhouse emissions are due to meat. That's more than Every form of transportation. Yet the folks over at rationalwiki think that discussing "how vegans are narcissistic pricks" is more important than it's devastating environmental effect. Rationalwiki goes on and on about how global warming denialism is stupid, then makes fun of people that are changing their lifestyle to reduce these emmisions. How ironic. 2.30.85.105 (talk) 20:18, 21 April 2019 (UTC)
Why the hell should we avoid killing domestic animals? It isn't like they're endangered. Comparing women and minorities to dumb animals is both unconvincing, and an indication of the sheltered and 'privileged' backgrounds that allow people to get all bothered by butchering practices. It's just weakness. I don't put any stock in vegan 'documentaries' and 'statistics' because I'm quite familiar with the same sort of shock imagery and twaddle put forth by the anti-abortion cult; and animal-rights horseshit is almost the same, they just picked an even more ridiculous thing to sentimentalize. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱs. 22:49, 21 April 2019 (UTC)

Exceptions given in the Benefits section[edit]

The section says that vegan food requires less water than non-vegan (apart from almond milk) and has lower emissions than non-vegan (apart from avocados). Recent studies (most significantly https://ora.ox.ac.uk/objects/uuid:b0b53649-5e93-4415-bf07-6b0b1227172f ) find that these exceptions are not valid. Even the worst almond milk still requires less water than the best dairy milk, and even the worst avocados still result in lower emissions than even the best animal products.

Almonds and avocados do come out as relatively 'bad' vegan foods, but they're still better than any of the animal foods. — Unsigned, by: 90.204.150.22 / talk