Talk:Israel/Archive1

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[edit] Additions

Before I get attacked for an obviously conservative/liberal piece of racist/imperialist/whatever garbage, I was just trying to get something up here that would explain things somewhat. It's kind of bleh, but if ANYONE knows more about it than me, PLEASE add something.

It's been a while since I've studied this subject, but I think the idea that the land was given to them is erroneous, in a way. Settlement was encouraged there, but Israel had to declare its statehood, and (as is often the case) not without violence. The roots of zionism, of course, go back well before WWII, and the land itself was a serious point of contention during and after WWI, as contradictory assurances were made for the same area. The Balfour Declaration stated preference for a Jewish homeland, but the same basic area was being promised to the Arabs for their revolt against the Ottoman Empire. I think Britain also made assurances to France that it would become a French protectorate. As usual the politicians made a huge mess of something that could easily have been, well... a slightly less huge mess. DickTurpis 23:14, 23 September 2007 (EDT)
If that's the case, do you mind editing it to include some of that? My general chronology is a little shaky; I'm a bit better with the theory for why it was needed.Researcher 23:30, 23 September 2007 (EDT)
Sure, but keep in mind I'm not what WP calls a "reliable source" (much of this is from memory going back 10 years). You should probably get some independent verification (I'd look some of it up but I'm tired). The real concern is that it is very difficult to briefly describe any aspect of the Israeli-Palestinian situation without inaccuracies due to oversimplification. DickTurpis 23:35, 23 September 2007 (EDT)
How many of us are reliable sources? For most of the pages I've made up (this one included!) I've pulled facts out of classes I took up to 5 years ago in the hopes that I'm right. It's still better than nothing, and if you put your own worries out here in the talk page no one should be able to accuse you of attempting to move things in a direction due to ideology. Researcher 23:39, 23 September 2007 (EDT)

What's that make my edits - I left school in '62 - everything's changed since then. I do remember that loads of members of the early Israeli government had been previously regarded as terrorists. Susantalk to me 01:44, 24 September 2007 (EDT)

I rather think that we should mention things like British involvement and the Balfour Declaration. The terrorists came from the Haganah and the Irgun. Can't quite see a good RW angle at the moment though.--Bob's your uncle 16:01, 25 September 2007 (EDT)
The problem with an "RW" angle is that this is so contentious, even by rational people, that it's hard to find a good angle. I put it up because there were so many links.Researcher 16:04, 25 September 2007 (EDT)

[edit] references

could someone add a wikipedia link with one of those "for a alternative look" or what ever thing on the side? — Unsigned, by: Alien / talk / contribs 05:02, 30 September 2007‎ (UTC)

[edit] Asia, rly?

Rly. The middle East is Asia - Egypt is sort of the wild card - it's sort of in the Middle East in terms of its politics, but very much in Africa in terms of geography. Once you get comfortable with the idea that "Asia" is an imperialist/European/Orientalist construction anyway...PFoster 21:12, 29 February 2008 (EST)

Continents are themselves an imperialist/European/Orientalist construct, anyway. While the middle east may be "in asia", I found the description strange. Why no just say it's in the Middle East? Everyone knows where that is. Asia, on the other hand... humanUser talk:Human 23:06, 29 February 2008 (EST)

[edit] Lost tribes

Would someone with better research skills than me like to examine the 'lost tribes' and the British Israel movement? Susanpurrrrr 19:32, 8 March 2008 (EST)

Hey, Susan, can you throw a linky reffy thingie on that new section's quote? humanUser talk:Human 21:12, 8 March 2008 (EST)

[edit] Braiman

For all of his reluctance to actually discuss anythign on this here talk page, I have to agree that what was on the page in the first place wasn't so hot. The first part was okay but not unsourced, and that bit about a "new Holocaust" was a bit inflammatory, especially since it wasn't sourced either. The second bit about the British Isles made no sense at all to me. Maybe a rewrite explaining what the heck it was referring to? --Kels 14:58, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

[edit] Palestine/Israel conflict

I think it might work better if we have the articles about each country (or whatever you want to call them) be relatively neutral to slightly favorable. Then we should have an Israeli/Palestinian conflict article that analyzes the good, the bad, and the ugly. That way, neither "country" article will present one-sided snark or commentary, and the conflict article will contain both sides in one place. Any thoughts on that? (posted on both talk pages) humanUser talk:Human 19:51, 15 March 2008 (EDT)

Call me biased, but I think it is better fit for *RationalWiki* to criticize the Muslim fundamentalism ("We will never normalize relations with Israel, we will win because Allah is with us") rather than automatically take the stance opposite to that of the Christian fundamentalists. — Unsigned, by: 85.250.19.2 / talk / contribs

As the contributor to this page that is most clearly biased towards the Palestinian cause, I wanted to respond to some problems I have with this post.

1) Emphasizing on the religious elements of Israel/Palestine is often pursued in a factually inerrant way, and it is one of the more overblown elements of the conflict. From my personal observations, it generally misleads people about the nature of the conflict. While rationalwiki has done an excellent job of pointing out the follies of religious belief, we also have an obligation as free thinkers to post the truth, even when it doesn't fit our preconceived notions. Generally, if someone calls it a "religious conflict", you can assume they have not followed the scholarship on the conflict. Similar to the past century of Irish troubles, this is a nationalist struggle, not a religious one. The rhetoric and stated goals of the PLO are not about Islam; they are about Palestinian Nationalism.

2) The claims that the Palestinian side is synonymous with "Muslim" is empirically false. If we were to emphasize on the religious elements, we'd inevitably have to focus on the Jewish side of the equation. Outside of Hamas, the biggest Islamic organization in the struggle is Islamic Jihad. These groups were not a factor until the 90's, when Israel encouraged Islamist organizations in an attempt to weaken the secular PLO. This conflict has been going on since the 1940's, and for the majority of that time period, the PLO was considered the voice of the Palestinian struggle. The PLO is not a religious organization. Emphasizing on the Muslim side of Palestinian nationalism also ignores the Christian's who are also part of the struggle for Palestinian National Identity. The second largest group in the struggle was founded by a Christian.

3) While I don't mean to get personal, your claim that "We will never normalize relations with Israel, we will win because Allah is with us" gives me the impression that you have not read any of the scholarly material on the subject. This is what I meant above when I said that emphasizing on the religious elements of the conflict misleads people about it's nature, and leads them to take factually false and uninformed positions on this conflict. The lack of recognition of Israel has been going on since the beginning of this conflict, and it is rooted in Arab nationalism, not Islamic dogma or domination. Nasser, who struggled against Israel more than any head of state, was very opposed to political Islam, and was a very progressive leader. Sadat, who undid all of Nasser's reforms and led to the Islamic insurgence in Egypt, was the leader who recognized Israel!

It is true that for Hamas and Islamist organizations, Islam has a lot to do with the recognition of Israel. However, these groups only became a factor in the 90's. This conflict has been going on for decades prior, and groups like the PLO are not Islamist organizations.

Criticisms aside, I do think it would be fair to have an article separate article for Israel, Palestine, and the Israel/Palestine conflict. While it would be very difficult to have content in either article without mentioning the conflict, I imagine it can be done by sticking to things like political parties, systems, historical figures, and things of that nature. It would also make it much easier to moderate all three articles, as they would have clearly set domains for what is appropriate, and what isn't.-Yuri — Unsigned, by: MarxWasRight / talk / contribs 22:45, 22 January 2012‎ (UTC)

[edit] Hmm...

Yeah, the editorializing is a bit thick. If the wikipedia article is 'less biased', then by all means crib it.

By in large, some mechanism to redirect searches to wikipedia pages where topics aren't really about pseudo-science or anti-science would probably be the 'right' thing to do. It would prevent this site from losing focus and trying to be a 'wikipedia clone', or yet another 'anti-conservapedia' site (like Liberapedia).

Focusing on various claims about what Israel 'is' and 'isn't' thought to be according to various people might be a good starting point for interesting original content. Maybe without making it a 'Palestine is a VICTIM' page. — Unsigned, by: 96.235.105.104 / talk / contribs

So what bothers you about our article? I note no salient comments regarding whatever your issues might be... ħumanUser talk:Human 05:47, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

[edit] No such country as "Israel"

"Israel" is correctly called Occupied Palestine. The government of Israel, and it's Judeo-American and Judeo-British puppet governments, founded a state based on terror and oppression. I refuse to recognize this terrorist state, or other Jewish terror states such as "America", and RationalWiki should do the same. ILOVEPALESTINE (talk) 01:50, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

America is a Jewish terror state? You sir are an anti-semite, a racist, and an idiot. Anyone who says otherwise is so blinded by their hatred of Israel that they cannot or are unwilling to see the blind hatred in you. Go read Mein Kampf and blow up a bus.
While I'm no fan of Israeli policies writ large, the UN and most reasonable people in the world would have other ideas on whether or not Israel is a real country.Because it is. Lots of states are based on "terror and oppression." just ask any Native Canadian, Australian Aborigine, Maori, Sami, Aino, Vietnamese Montagnard, Basque in Spain, etc.. Assholes like you are incredibly counter-productive--whether you're serious or just being an agent provocateur. Go eat a bag of cocks. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 02:05, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Actually, it is people who support "Israel" who are incredibly counter-productive, they are supports of terror and oppression far beyond anyone else. Do Sami, Basques and Native Canadians continue to be starved and terrorized to very day, as the Palestinians do? Laerynisbeautiful (talk) 02:14, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Right, because supporters of Palestine, Like Libya's Ghaddafi or Syria's Assad or Iran's Ahmadinejad, have done so much for world peace! Oh, and Palestinians receive thousands of tons of food aid every week, delivered by the IDF and paid for with Israeli taxes. As for "terorrized every day," there is not a Palestinian alive who would trade their current lot with the lives of someone living in Sderot, Israel, which received several hundred rocket attacks a day by the so-called peaceful Palestinians. Palestinians get unlimited free medical care in Israel's hospitals, and billions from the US, EU, Un, and, yes, Israel. Palestinians teach their children to kill and die while Israelis teach their children, of all ethnicities and faiths, to read and write and make peace and be tolerant. Palestinians are 100% Caucasian. Israel has Africans and Asians of many religions and nations of origin.
They might say yes, depending on how one defined "terrorized." UN World Food Programme research on indigenous diets would certainly back up the "starved" bit. — Unsigned, by: TheoryOfPractice / talk / contribs
Does the Judeo-American government, which purposefully favors so-called "minorities" (92% of the earth's population) over white people really have a bias against indigenous peoples, the way the Israeli one does? Only if those indigenous peoples are the indigenous people of Palestine. I doubt the judeo-american government is really "racist" except in favor of the Khazar World Elite. Laerynisbeautiful (talk) 02:20, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

"Judeo-American government?" We're done. Go eat a bag of cocks. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 02:21, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

So the government of "America" is not Khazar-controlled, according to you? We're done. Go eat a bag of cocks. Laerynisbeautiful (talk) 02:22, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Nice to see RationalWiki living up to its high level of debate that has made this place the intellectual Mecca of the internet. - π 02:24, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Mecca? What are you, one of them filthy Ay-rabs? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 02:26, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
This place is just like Mecca, people stomp each other to death just to run around in circles here. - π 02:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
It's TOP. What were you expecting, a modicum of civility? Common courtesy? I think not. --The Emperor Kneel before Zod! 02:29, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
(EC)Fuck off. - π 02:30, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
Oh well. Acei9 01:52, 5 March 2010 (UTC)
And don't stop til you finish the whole bag!TKEtoolshed
Chicken is delicious. - π 02:12, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

This section was so much funnier when it was just that idiot's thing and Ace saying "oh well". ħumanUser talk:Human 02:47, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Oh well. --The Emperor Kneel before Zod! 02:51, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

[edit] Funny.Biased,friggin biased,but funny

To when a funny but unbiased version? --82.57.96.247 (talk) 12:29, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Map

I was surprised to find that map on RATIONALwiki. See this link for explanations. I suggest it be removed. Goldie Watson (talk) 14:55, 26 March 2011 (UTC)

Boring. P-Foster (talk) 15:00, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Wut. I guess it is, but still, I suggest it be removed as it is factually incorrect. Goldie Watson (talk) 16:19, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
Or better, explain the context, background and accuracy of the map within the article itself. Scarlet A.pngpathetic 16:21, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
This would be a sensible solution, except that the section under review talks about Israel's history of illegal occupation of Palestinian territory, and not about factually wrong maps of these events. The best--IMHO--solution would be to include a map of the current Palestinians territories that are under Israeli occupation. Goldie Watson (talk) 16:41, 26 March 2011 (UTC)
But I miss the historical aspect. The previous map may have been wrong but it had elements of truth which the replacement doesn't. Primarily the replacement comepletely ignores the gradual encroachment, the ever expanding settlements. This is not trivial. Jack Hughes (talk) 10:06, 27 March 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Come on, people

Although this is a liberal encyclopedia (thank G-d for that) perhaps you could present a slightly more accurate article on Israel and Israeli politics. As a Jew who supports Israel, I believe in a balanced view. I do not hesitate to criticize Israel when I see fit; that's free speech. But if you present a completely one-sided view, then your credibility is lost. I suggest you put some of the good points about Israel here too; I'm sure you can find them.

Also, I really dislike how, in this age, you need to hate Israel to be a liberal. And not just criticise either: hate. One's credibility in liberal circles seems to rise every time one hates on Israel. Israel's not a perfect country, and neither is the US, Canada, or-- hell, any place.ConcernedCitizen (talk) 20:41, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

please outline whatever unfair criticisms you see. Then, once you've warned everybody about the changes, either do them yourself or other editors will look into the matter and do it--"Shut up, Brx." 21:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I've read a bit of Isreal's history and modern practices, and i have to say, I've found very little to support there. I do not think that blockades of people who have a 40% unemployment rate, cannot get access to quality health care, nor vote about the Larger State Issues (they are not citizens of Isreal, or their own country... Palestinians are some middle ground reality); Isreal is, in the sense of support from the world, economic support and it's own political stability, an "adult" who has a pigheaded child on their hands. Isreal does not need to continue the politics of the day, to enforce their rights. But i'd never edit anything... cause i'm just opinionated, not necessarily informed. :-) Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot 21:51, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Our Mossad article I think is alright. Also, I'm thinking of doing an article on Mordechai Vanunu. --"Shut up, Brx." 21:54, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I've read a lot on Israel's history and modern practices, and find tons to support. I think blockades of a people who launch deadly rockets daily or who continue to send suicide bombers (unsuccessfully, thanks to the fence) in to murder innocent civilians on the grounds of their religion is perfectly valid, as is securing a border. I find little in the Palestinians that makes me feel sorry for them, as they continue to preach hatred to their children, encouraging them to pick up rifles and murder Jews and Israelis rather than telling them to make peace, as Israel does. I see an Israel where Muslims have the right to vote and hold office, and many do, and many use their platform to insult the very nation that elected them and gave them their rights, while other Arab politicians are actually pro-Israel and working to support their nation. I don't see a single Arab nation that gives its religious minorities one iota of the power and freedom Israel gives its. I don't see a single nation, anywhere on earth, that is as continuously bombarded with attacks from its neighbors as Israel. I don't see a single Arab nation giving aid to its Palestinian population. I don't remember Jordan treating the West Bank any better when it illegally occupied it from 1948-1967 than Israel is now, and the same goes for when Egypt illegally occupied Gaza. I don't see as many deaths in the Israeli Arab conflict, from all sides and for all the decades, as I see in, say, 1 year of the Iraq war, or one month of WWII, or even the current Syrian civil war, yet I do see a completely unwarranted level of media attention and blind hate by supposed liberal on this site. A true rationalwiki should give Israel the same respect and treatment it gives Palestine, at least, especially since Israel is a FAR more tolerant and left-wing nation than the conservative Palestinian regime. Fix this page, and add some balance. This blind hatred and one-sideness is the crap I expect from Conservapedia, not from a so-called liberal wiki. Come on indeed!202.169.173.153 (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2012 (UTC)RealLiberalsSupportIsrael

Your article about the Mossad is pretty good.

I'm going to edit the section on "Politics". It says nothing about actual Israeli politics; it's just a condemnation.

Also, in what light would you be portrying Mr. Vanunu? ConcernedCitizen (talk) 16:23, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I'd like to stress that I didn't write the mossad article. I made a few very minor additions, that's all. As for Vanunu, I'm not sure. I'm inclined to praise him but there's always two sides to every story- though often on of those sides is dead wrong. Hopefully others will help out once I've started and make a decent article of it.--"Shut up, Brx." 17:15, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's a reference on Israel that is far more rational than this wiki is currently being. [1] 202.169.173.153 (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Jesus Christ (I know, sorry...)

We really need to improve this article, and add a separate piece on the Israel-Palestinian/Arab conflict. Everything's all scattered around. Osaka Sun (talk) 19:33, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

[edit] Gay Rights

Discarding any personal opinions on Israel or the conflict, when I see that a site like "RationalWiki" which supposedly claims to represent the Liberal and Progressive view of our world, downplays the achievements of Israel on LBGT rights, I can safely say it is anything but Liberal or Progressive. Israel does not only have the most progressive attitude towards LBGT rights in the middle east, something which is not very hard to do, but it is one of the most progressive country on this issue in the world (something which is not very hard to find out if you really cared to). Yet this site ignores any of the many specific achievements of Israel on this issue, but does try to downplay it by referring to an attempt to legislate an anti-gay law, an attempt which have failed (but of course this is not mentioned here anywhere). Also, whoever wrote this tries to smear the whole country of using LBGT rights to "to justify crimes against the Palestinians" by referring to an independent gay idiot who made a false video.... Ya, very progressive and liberal this site. and "very" accurate. No wonder this article needs so many citations... well, good luck with that. I would have contributed to this article but it is doomed from the start. If you really care or have any sense of accuracy, this whole article should be discarded and re-writen from the start. — Unsigned, by: 192.116.232.69 / talk / contribs 13:46, 22 November 2011

Thank you for your contribution to the project. PintOfStout Talk Good people drink good beer. 15:24, 26 December 2011 (UTC)

I was the one who originally edited this, so I'd like to respond. First of all, I should note I am not a liberal, and tend to disagree with liberalism. I am a Marxist.

I have to admit that I am ignorant about Israel's gay rights record, and the achievements in contrast to the rest of the world. My post was not an attempt to take away from Israel's achievements with gay rights; it was to point out that this positive record has been used to justify and rationalize heinous crimes. This isn't unique to Israel, or even homosexual rights; women's rights was used by the imperialist nations in the 19th century to justify their atrocities in their colonial territories. My discussion of pink washing was not an attempt to take away from Israel's achievements in gay rights; it was to point out that it's record has been used to justify heinous acts.

With that said, I have to assume you were the person who scare quoted the "freedom flotilla". I will point out that scare quoting such a movement is not a progressive view point on Israel/Palestine; I'd argue it's an utterly reactionary stance. I will assume that your comment about Israel's records on homosexual rights is true, and I applaud that; perhaps you could contribute some more on this topic, as I'd be very interested to see how Israel's stance on gay rights compares to other Western nations. However, their positive treatment of homosexuals should not excuse Israel's crimes against the Palestinian's and it's neighbors. This is what I was trying to draw attention to.-Yuri

Likewise, Israel's treatment of the Arabs (what, no mention of the crimes the Palestinians have done to Israel, the Arabs to Israel, or the Arabs to the Palestinians? Where's your rationality?) should not be used to minimize their achievements in Gay rights, women's rights, and other issues. This website is supposed to be fair and rational, yet your Israel page is pure anti-Israel and pro-Arab, the latter ruling some of the most conservative and oppressive nations on earth. This page is RationalWiki's greatest weakness and embarrassment. Also, at no point has Israel ever used its gay rights to "justify" its actions in the West Bank and Gaza ("Heinous acts?" That's your emotionally-charged opinion, not a fact.) It simply mentions them to get more gay tourists. Gay activists around the world have widely panned the allegations of pinkwashing. A pity this site is still on the fringe.

As for how Israel compares to its neighbors, note that homosexuals are frequently brutalized, tortured, and arrested in the West Bank just for being gay, and many seek asylum in Israel. In Gaza, male homosexuality is punishable by death, as it is in most Muslim nations. Perhaps it is you using Israel to justify Arab homophobia! 202.169.173.153 (talk) 17:36, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

"Hasbara" --Akayani (talk) 08:09, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

This whole page is hasbara. That totally destroys any concept of a rational or one might assume critical thought.

"Israel is the only state in the Middle East to have any kind of gay rights."

In fact making use of gay rights is hasbara in the extreme.

A gunman shot dead two people and wounded at least 15 others in an attack at a central Tel Aviv gay and lesbian center Saturday night before fleeing the scene. http://www.haaretz.com/news/two-killed-in-shooting-at-tel-aviv-gay-center-1.281193

Two gay Palestinians who lived in Gaza and were in a relationship were killed when an Israeli bomb directly hit their apartment building http://www.gaystarnews.com/article/palestinian-gay-couple-killed-israeli-gaza-bombing201112

The right to be shot isn't part of gay rights. To suggest this makes them better on human rights than another state in the Middle East is highly questionable.


Further... In 1951, a revision of the Jordanian Criminal Code decriminalized private, adult, non-commercial, and consensual sodomy, with the age of consent set at 16. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Jordan

Jordan was 20 years ahead of Australia on this.

The State of Israel inherited its sodomy or "buggery" law from British influence, but there is no record that it was ever enforced against homosexual acts that took place between consenting adults in private. In 1963, the attorney general declared that this law would not be enforced; however, in certain cases defendants were found guilty of "sodomy" (which according to Israeli law includes oral sex as well), apparently by way of plea bargains: those defendants had been indicted for more serious sexual offences. There were also cases of soldiers tried for homosexual acts in military courts. The Israeli Supreme Court ruled, in the 1960s, that the law should not be applied to acts between consenting adults in private. The ban on consensual same-sex sexual acts was formally repealed by the national legislative assembly (Knesset) in 1988. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LGBT_rights_in_Israel

So Jordan was 37 years ahead of Israel in this important aspect of criminal law.

To need to stoop to using Gay Rights as a means to prove human rights in Israel is pathetic. Israel has clearly developed into an apartheid military theocracy and has very little resemblance to a democratic state. Israel has no fixed boarders, no constitution, lacks full representation in voters, ignores requests from the UN...

If this wiki is to represent 'truths' then this whole page of hasbara is a total failure.

Please explain what the word ' hasbara' means. Proxima Centauri (talk) 08:21, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
The Wikipedia page you cite has a tag saying it's unreferenced and therefore it's not a valid source. Furthermore if this page is accurate what Jordan permits over honour killings etc is barbaric. Criminal laws. The shooting at a LGBT Center in Tel Aviv was illegal and the police are hunting the criminal/criminals responsible. Israelis have as much freedom to attend LGBT Centers as Americans have to watch Batman movies. Israeli bombing in :Palestine doesn't discriminate against gays. Proxima Centauri (talk) 08:33, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
Hasbara is sorta Isreali public relations. How you "sell yourself". In this case he's clearly trying to say that everything we write about gays is a propaganda movement by Isreael (or the US, or the wiki? not sure) to make them look better on the "human rights" issues, by highlighting the fact that times are still tough for gays. Your take down was quite good!  :-)Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 16:42, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
There can be discussion about whether blogs like Patheos are good enough to use as sources but a webpage that clearly states, "This section needs additional citations for verification." is certainly not a reliable source. Proxima Centauri (talk) 18:52, 15 April 2013 (UTC)
For what it's worth, unless you are talking about "the internt's reaction" to something, blogs are almost never quality sources of anything. You need to go into the blog article, and find what he or she is sourcing, then go there. Green mowse.pngGodot The ablity to breath is such an overrated ability 18:59, 15 April 2013 (UTC)

[edit] "the homophobia of the freedom flotilla"

There should probably be some mention of what the hell the freedom flotilla was. PintOfStout Talk Good people drink good beer. 00:38, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

In retrospect, the information about the first freedom flotilla was irrelevant to the topic at hand. I added it because the person who previously edited it had put it in scare quotes and made statements that don't match up with the historical record of the Freedom Flotilla. To give an example, said person said the video came from the 2010 flotilla, when it was in fact from the 2011 one.

While it would be an interesting event to discuss, it would probably deserve it's own article, or to be placed in one on the Israel/Palestine conflict, as opposed to this article. As it stands, the flotilla information doesn't seem to fit into any established categories on this page.-Yuri — Unsigned, by: MarxWasRight / talk / contribs 22:51, 22 January 2012‎ (UTC)

[edit] 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar (1st Croatian)

Having already edited the main article, I'd like to shed some additional light to the formation, role, and importance of the SS Handschar. The article previously stated that Bosnian Muslims were renowned for their brutality, or was meant to state that the said division was renowned for brutality. Neither of the two possible interpretations (the sentence was poorly constructed) is true.

The greatest crimes committed on the territory of Bosnia and Herzegovina during World War II, whether in scale or brutality, were committed by Ustasha (Catholic Croat) or Chetnik (Orthodox Serb) troops, and were often committed against Bosnian Muslim populace. By 1943. Bosnian Muslims suffered over 100,000 casualties and suffered from frequent persecution at the hands of these formations. The desire to be able to defend their homes was a notable factor making their recruitment into an SS Division possible in the first place, in spite of the declaration issued by local Muslim clerics forbidding any such action.

The unit is also notable for mutiny and desertion. Furthermore, there is no evidence that the unit was in any way notable for brutality, especially in comparison with other SS units or already mentioned Ustasha and Chetnik forces.

For further reading visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/13th_Waffen_Mountain_Division_of_the_SS_Handschar_%281st_Croatian%29 — Unsigned, by: 217.197.143.111 / talk / contribs 16:34, 6 May 2012‎ (UTC)

[edit] Human rights

A lot of that section seems to use the not as bad as argument by saying "Israeli human rights are better than most Arab states". I don't have any suggestions at the moment for improvement, as I know little about this subject, but I thought it might be worth pointing out. Mr. Anon (talk) 03:56, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Latest feedback

The high level of vitriol and hyperbole used in this page and by anti-Israel activists demands a "reality check." Describing Israel as some mega-oppressor when Arab crimes 1) against Israel 2) Against Palestinians 3) Against their own people, particularly minorities, are always far worse and more extreme than anything Israel has ever done is not rational, not ethical, and not fair. It is important to put Israel's actions into context (it is up against the entire Arab world, an immense and wealthy and very racist entity that has repeatedly invaded Israel and has even occupied the land that was supposed to Palestine unapologetically, and with far more brutal policies than Israel has). It is also important, in the interest of rationalism, to not let biased language and emotional/opinionated/POV text interfere with the truth. This page is a mess and a disgrace to liberalism and rationalism. I understand that many here blindly hate Israel and will say anything to portray her negatively, but they are doing so in an offensive way with many deviations from the fact that they need pro-Israel rationalist voices to tone down until we reach a tolerant medium.— Unsigned, by: 202.169.173.153 / talk / contribs

I've never seen so much not as bad as in my entire life. And this is coming from someone whose family had to escape Eastern Europe in WWII to the West due to Jewish ancestry, and still supports an Israeli state. Osaka Sun (talk) 20:32, 29 July 2012 (UTC)

[edit] Using circular logic, Israel refuses to give up those lands, stating they need it for their own protection; yet a key reason they are attacked is the illegal possession of the lands.

There are a bunch of justifications for the occupation that will get mentioned, from the security aspects brought up here to the idea that "it's ours because God says so." It's too complex an issue to just leave hanging like that. P-Foster Talk ""Santorum is the cream rising to the top."" 22:16, 23 March 2012 (UTC)

It's not at all circular. The security justification is used for Israel retaining territory captures in 1967. Israel was first attacked in 1948. Moreover, Israel offered to trade that land back to Syria, Egypt, and Jordan for peace after the '67 war and was rebuffed. When Egypt and Jordan did finally agree to make peace, they weren't interested in Gaza and the West Bank. Doesn't excuse the Israeli occupation of it, but the issue is more complicated than you seem to realize. Zt205 (talk) 23:30, 16 September 2014 (UTC)
I think the phrase is wrong and self-fulfilling prophecy is more accurate, but the overall point is right. The fighting in 1948 was mutual and had going on at a lower intensity for many years and before the war actually started Israel did start ethnically cleansing Palestinians in and around its future territory. it wasn't a case of Israel being attacked.
Also Israel only made minor efforts at a peace deal post '67 for about 4 months between June and October and their proposal had a variety of unacceptable conditions like annexing Gaza and portions of the West Bank. For instance in their book Israeli rejectionism a hidden agenda in the Middle East peace process both of the authors (Both former Zionist IDF veterans) state how it was Israel failing to take action and meaningfully try and swap the occupied land in exchange for peace which specifically made them doubt and question their Zionist ideology because they couldn't believe Israel would choose a land-grab over peace. Plenty of other authors, like Ahron Bregman and Norman Finkelstein, have also pointed out how Israel simply has not made meaningful efforts at peace.
In truth Israel prefers land to peace and has always been happy to continue its occupation because it thinks the longer it waits the stronger its bargaining position would be. --188.122.42.164 (talk) 14:26, 16 October 2014 (UTC)

[edit] More edits

Can we talk these changes over instead of just reverting them? Balaam (talk) 18:57, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

Sure, most of them were not really needed changes along the lines of "terrible thing but others say/did y terrible thing or want to do Z terrible thing"--Mikal Harass Follow 19:05, 12 November 2012 (UTC)

The goal of RationalWiki is to be accurate. Please engage in discussion about the recent changes instead of just deleting them outright. I strongly believe they can be defended as more accurate than how it was before. — Unsigned, by: ‎152.62.109.61 / talk / contribs

Whatever y'all decide to do with the article, please stop putting that stupid quote from some unnamed YouTube user back in. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 08:13, 17 December 2012 (UTC)
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