Talk:Hugo Chávez

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I've Been to Venezuala and I've seen the man himself in person

He is a nutter ruining a country by exploiting the questionable intelligence of poor people. His policies actively make their lives more dreadful - crime is rampant and uncontrollable, the economy is crumbling, oil is just about preventing the country falling apart at the seams - yet they vote for him, because they are completely in thrall to his powerful propaganda machine. His goons actively prevent the liberal minded opposition from forming a genuine civic resistance, and political intimidation is the norm. The fact of the matter is, if Chavez was governing Britain, Australia, the US, France etc. then all the pinko's who now idolize him would be horrified, because they would see the sheer Orwellian nature of his manipulation techniques and the crappy crappy egotistical way that he runs the country. He holds democracy and liberty in utter contempt, he is a slave to his own ego. He reminds me in some ways of Idi Amin.

What sickens me most are his defenders in the west, mostly middle class college kids who haven't the first clue about this country or the absolute loon who governs it.

This article was pretty shoddy by the way, tries to please both camps and ends up pleasing neither. MarcusCicero (talk) 00:25, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Тy^Talk. 00:36, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

From what I've heard from Venezuelians and others that know more about this topic then I do, it was all worse before him. As long as the international organizations say it's all democratic, free a.s.o. it's not our desicion but the one of the people of Venezuela. And making embargos on a country because we don't like their system is piss-poor act to fuck up a system and then point at it and say "look it doesn't work, told'ya!". --ǓḤṂ^³ 00:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

This looks like it was written by a Conservapedian fascist, try removing some stupid criticism and add useful information. I also have talked to some Venezuelans in person, and what they tell me is very different to what this article says and more like this. Also, Chavez is in NO way a dictator, no matter what you say. He has always won by overwhelming majority, and his popularity is growing even more. Please don't try to distortion the meaning of "dictator". A dictator is one who rules against his people's will. Period. Chavez has been always clearly democratically elected. --XXPowerMexicoXx (talk) 01:09, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

By that logic, Hitler and Napoleon weren't dictators either. Тy^Talk. 02:07, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

Or, to give a more explicit counterexample, there was once a Roman dictator by the name of Cincinnatus; he had popular support.

The difference between a dictator and a regular head-of-state is not whether they have popular support or not — plenty of regular heads-of-state wax in and out of popularity — but whether or not they are empowered to breach the rule of law; the chief distinctive of a dictator (both in ancient Rome and today) is that they can rule by decree. By moving toward this ability, Chavez has moved toward dictatorial status. ListenerX^TalkerX 02:54, 1 June 2011 (UTC)

It follows that a dictator will rule by fiat...I would proffer the other main criterion for being a dictator is an ineffective regime-change apparatus, (or a "voting" system that heavily favors the incumbent). 03:10, 1 June 2011 (UTC) C®ackeЯ

Critical research failure

might be on your case. There may be a counterexample to the claim of "first" socialist, but Jesus' economic views would certainly be considered extreme left today, in the fields of Socialism and Communism. Quoting non-violence, "the other cheek" is orthogonal to that, there are many pacifist socialists, though Chávez was none of them. And there are counterexamples to Jesus as pacifist, his quotes about swords, being executed as an insurgent leader. If you want to equate socialism with authoritarianism, if you take mainstream Christian theology seriously, you can't get a more final authority than Jesus, being God, condemning every rich person to hell...^{— Unsigned, by: 188.174.52.204 / talk / contribs}

I guess you didn't hear the announcement from the stage about the brown acid. If I knew the way/I would take you home. 20:49, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

I've edited the intro

Chavez was a complex figure and it will take historians many decades to get to the bottom of him. He is a from a rich tradition of Latin American populism, and his demagoguery was not always well understood in the West, which tends to flinch when faced with somebody so obviously loopy. I do think we could do with pointing out that under his tenure he created a cult of personality and made the lives of many Venezualans - particularly those who voted against him - demonstrably worse. The explosion of violent crime under his reign was no accident either, it was a direct result of the cronyism and party-first system he inculcated. Rationalwiki does itself a dis-service by nodding to the agenda of ignorant college kids in their various socialist/left wing societies, what with their Guevara tee shirts and faux Trotsky mustaches. Anyway. I consider myself a man of the left, an Orwell socialist if you will. Orwell would have despised Chavez, and seen him for what he was. I think Rationalwiki needs to take the blinkers off and look at this loon and the damage he did to his country. I'm sure my edit will be reverted or drastically toned down, but I think its important we have this discussion. MarcusCicero (talk) 22:23, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Your edits look fine to me. Try to lose the martyr complex. If I knew the way/I would take you home. 22:44, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Was there any need for that right hook?MarcusCicero (talk) 10:45, 23 June 2013 (UTC)

Neoliberal bullshit

Which this article is filled with. — Oxyaena ^Harass 16:40, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Argument by assertion. Also, it looks fine to me. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:19, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

"Based off of what the poor masses want, rather than what is economically prudent." Yes, because what benefits rich people matters more than securing a comfortable level of existence for all people rather than the few. — Oxyaena ^Harass 06:48, 14 January 2020 (UTC)

That isn't "filled with". ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 14:50, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Perhaps we could have five or six examples of factual errors? (This sounds like the typical compliant from a YEC - This article is all wrong!) Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:25, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

The article mentions that somehow worker-owned coops are somehow negative without giving an adequate reason why beyond standard neoliberal filler. The human side of things should always be more important than mere profit, the workers owning control over their own means of production is much more psychologically beneficial than toiling away for minimum wage under do-nothing bosses in menial labor outfits is, and encouraging workplace democracy isn't an inherently negative thing. Perhaps this obsession with "efficiency" and "growth" does harm to the actual, realized human side of things, and being all obsessed with "efficiency" and "growth" at the cost of actual people isn't all its touted to be, no? And attempts to reform this soulless system aren't inherently "irrational" and/or "negative" because they aren't "economically efficient," even tho they result in greater democratization of the economy and worker morale. Chavez is, if anything, not very different from the classical socdems of mid twentieth century Europe. Furthermore, painting all leftist critiques as "BUT SANCTIONS!" is a classical strawman, especially since it's a fact developed countries are rather hostile to left wing governments and projects in the third world, and will use any means necessary to topple said left-wing regimes. Trying to assert independence from Western hegemony is almost always gonna merit a negative reaction in some way, notice what occurred in Bolivia just a month or two ago, the OAS was caught deliberately spreading lies about Morales' non-existent election fraud, and the people who've replaced Evo are literal Christian supremacist fascists. — Oxyaena ^Harass 16:53, 16 January 2020 (UTC)

What exactly is "insane" about land reform?

As the section states, Chavez addressed the "gross inequalities" in land inequality. What's "insane" about that? Carthage (talk) 10:37, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

I think this article needs a major overhaul. What's bad about debt relief for poor farmers, for instance? You can argue the way Chavez went about it was bungled or whatever, but that doesn't make land reform itself a bad thing. Carthage (talk) 10:42, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

then why did you revert your edits? if you think there's something wrong with the article, you're more than welcome (and free) to change it. the only prerequisite is that you back it up with reliable citations.

i personally would love to hear the socialist's side of the story. after all, the current regime even has left-wing dissidents who believe the ruling party has either become too neoliberal in the post-chávez era or was never really on the left to begin with (depending on whom you ask). The G (talk) 06:20, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

Necropost. Are you seriously asking me to explain an editing decision made over a year ago? I don't even remember making the edit in question. Perhaps because I felt I wasn't up to the task of making the changes in question, or had better things to focus my energy on? I honestly don't know, nor do I actually care. Maybe someone else will come along and advance the socialist position or whatever, but that person isn't gonna be me. Carthage (talk) 06:28, 7 December 2024 (UTC)

well, you know what they say: the internet is forever. and i suppose you agree (if only tacitly) that the current article is just fine the way it is. :)

jokes aside, this article does leave out key information that's relevant to our mission, such as his rise (when even the maduro article covers that); the 1992 coup attempt and how he got off easily and may have inadvertently inspired trump and/or bolsonaro; and, of course, the infamous 2002 coup attempt against him. edit: ok, the latter is mentioned, but only in passing.

maybe one of these days, i'll spruce it up like i did to the bolsonaro article. i don't know much about his socialist policies, so i have no interest in discussing them, either. The G (talk) 17:46, 7 December 2024 (UTC)