Talk:Kiwi Farms

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Near suicide[edit]

Near wrote in his own words before taking his life "Kiwi Farms has made the harassment orders of magnitude worse. It's escalated from attacking me for being autistic, to attacking and doxing my friends, and trying to suicide bait another, just to get a reaction from me. I lost one of my best friends to this. I feel responsible." [1] 138.68.178.34 (talk) 20:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

And? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
What's your point here? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
Assuming good faith for a moment here; this situation is developing. I'm being cautious in what is being included and what I'm omitting for now. This could be anything from a mere nuisance to someone deliberately keeping KF offline for ages. Whomever is doing the DOS; they broke through CFs protection which is pretty impressive (yet at the same time not, I'll explain this later once things settle, I don't want to turn the article into live-edits). I understand and empathize with Nears suicide (I posted about it in the Bar for god's sake), but for now I'm keeping info on the page limited to avoid unnecessary bloat.
As for the point; this is a link and excerpt from the actual suicide note. Techpriest (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2021 (UTC)
I see. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Josh Moon's Antisemitism[edit]

This article claims that he is an anti-semite and uses two sources from twitter, both of which seem like jokes and require more context. While I believe Null is a piece of shit, I would err on the side of caution in making this specific claim, unless there are other sources that can corroborate it.— Unsigned, by: Fijineet / talk / contribs

If you don't understand how "cutting off jewish fingers to make a necklace out of them" is rather antisemitic, especially if it's as a joke I don't know what to tell you. Granted this might just be edgy shit (most of his stuff is done to be edgy), but being ironically antisemitic in public is still being antisemitic in public. Techpriest (talk) 12:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
I suspect Fijineet is a sock. Oxyaena Harass 12:43, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
Then change the wording of the article to "he has made anti-semetic jokes in the past". I did create my account to make this comment, but I'm not trying to defend Null or Kiwifarms. I simply think that if we make a claim, that claim has to be corroborated with more substantial evidence than two joke tweets. What do you mean, "especially if"? If it's a joke, then it devalues the claim because Null doesn't actually believe it. Fijineet
An antisemitic joke is still an antisemitic joke. It doesn't matter if he "actually believes it" or not, the material effect is the same. Oxyaena Harass 17:53, 1 July 2021 (UTC)
No, what Techpriest said is that the joke is "rather antisemetic, especially if it's as a joke," but if it's a joke then it devalues the claim that Null is an anti-semite because he does not actually believe what he's saying. I don't understand why the same standard is not being applied for this claim. He called Obama the n-word and believes in the white genocide theory, but this article doesn't even call him racist, it just says that "he keeps racists in company" and "his account was banned for racism". He's posted before that Muslims need to be killed and doesn't give a fuck about refugees, and the contexts do not imply that those are jokes. And yet with such a highly specific, outlandish threat that he's going to cut off the fingers of Jewish people, with nearly no context attached, I think these are jokes and claiming that he's an anti-semite requires more evidence. I'm not even advocating for its erasure of the page; I merely think that it can be edited for accuracy. "Null tweeted at a Jewish journalist asking for his fingers" and such. Fijineet (talk)

Look, I know you guys are gonna get angry at me, but it's probably just a joke. I'm a free speech guy, and I just think that free speech is free speech. If you wanna crack a joke then crack one open. — Unsigned, by: Viril.Feline.Wyyzrd / talk / contribs

Cyber-bullying and Suicide[edit]

https://www.ign.com/articles/near-bsnes-remembrance

"The emulation and fan localization communities are seeing an outpouring of memorials and grief today after the reported death of Near, who was the force behind both the BSNES emulator and the Bahamut Lagoon fan translation.

Also known as Byuu, Near took their own life over the weekend. A friend confirmed the reports circulating social media, but asked for privacy.

Community members took to social media to express their sadness following the tragedy, praising Near's work and talking about the positive impact they had on their life. Many expressed anger at the online bullying that ultimately pushed Near to take their life, their outrage centered on Kiwi Farms, a forum with a reputation for vicious targeted online harassment.

In a series of messages published on Twitter, Near talked about the online attacks and doxing that they and their friends suffered from Kiwi Farms, saying, "The internet is not a game. It's real life. I'm a real person."

Near was famous for their detailed, perfectionist approach to their work. They were particularly passionate about game preservation, and dedicated the development of BSNES — later renamed Higan — to being as accurate as possible. Their accomplishments include overclocking the virtual SNES processor without any distortion, with spectacular results.

In remembrance of their contributions to the emulation community, Ars Technica republished a piece from Near that delved into the coding of the BSNES and how SNES emulators were able to get "a few pixels from complete perfection." Back in March, Vice Games published an account of Near's perfectionist quest to localize Bahamut Lagoon, a cult 16-bit RPG that never made it to North America."

Maybe worth mentioning in the article? 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:1456:3370:48C2:3B4A (talk) 14:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

It is mentioned: "On June 27, 2021, Near, the developer of the popular SNES emulator higan[17] took their own life after a 3 year long harassment campaign by the site. The forums responded largely with mockery[20] and outright denial of the suicide in the first place[21], even as repeated evidence came forward that Near indeed committed suicide. In response, the site got DDOSed the next couple of days." Scream!! (talk) 14:36, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Definitely needs a rewrite now[edit]

So, I come back a couple weeks later and find out they killed someone IRL. Again. Nevermind the section, it's an entire rewrite that's needed, and badly. Cut the kid gloves. Fuckeverything (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Chris-Chan And Null Relationship[edit]

So, Chris-Chan entered the scene again, especially to the KF community, for chats stating that they raped their mother.

Also, it turns out that Josh/Null has a longstanding relationship with Chris, including often helping do GoFundMe's for various expenses over the years, but is only now cutting off contact:

[link removed] — Unsigned, by: Mmoore29 / talk / contribs

Mod note: don't link to Kiwi Farms please. Techpriest (talk) 21:07, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
To follow-up on this with an actual comment; It seems like Null grew a conscience of sorts (for as so far as that psychopath can have one for hosting KF in the first place) somewhere in 2018 when a group of people somehow even worse than KF began convincing CWC that their webcomic reality would merge with our reality, as well as increasing the amount of weird sexual behavior that was always attached to CWCs behavior to even more disgusting degrees (since I'm not gonna make this place a gossip blog about CWWC, don't continue this line of discussion). Null helped them cut contact with these people (again, he's still a fucking jackass for all the reasons we have listed in the article) and seems to have tried to prevent CWC from going further out of control, but CWC kept believing a lot of shit that they got told by these people. CWC becoming a literal motherfucker is probably an outgrowth of that behavior. I'm gonna urge some form of caution for now; we don't want to write about a bunch of details while the fires are still burning. It's best to be somewhat conservative in our coverage until the dust settles. There's no good people involved with that entire situation and we don't want to accidentally dig ourselves into a pit we can't get out of. Techpriest (talk) 21:16, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
At this point it might be better perhaps to remove any reference to Chris-chan on this article. GeeJayK (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Given the nature of the site, that's impossible. Techpriest (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
How about removing only the "who is notorious across the web for her bizarre crossover web comic between video game characters Sonic the HedgehogWikipedia and Pikachu, called 'Sonichu'." part? GeeJayK (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2021 (UTC)
Eh... In my eyes there's no issue with what we currently mention about CWC. I'm more urging caution about adding new things. Techpriest (talk) 21:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I was trying to help, and thought this might be something to talk about, especially regarding this weird contradiction about Null.

Submitting a draft of a partial rewrite[edit]

Here. Feel free to edit or delete if inappropriate. Fuckeverything (talk) 06:18, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Could at least have told us what you changed. Anyway, going through and doing some comparisons.
  1. Not a fan of squishing down our opening paragraph to something far less informative. Strong opposition to merging this.
  2. Josh was only tied to Christchurch because his response to authorities asking him to hand over information of his users was a dumb rant. It's by far not what defines the place.
  3. Josh kinda does warrant mention, if only for the hypocrisy of the site. He'd be one of their major stalking targets if he wasn't an admin.
  4. Outright removed information in the general shittiness article - why?
  5. CWC did fuck their mom. They've been arrested for this. I see no reason to pursue that further, but no we are not going to cast doubt on what appears to be genuine statements.
  6. "Why do they do it" -> Very poor paragraph to the point of being hilariously bad. I could unpack this with an entire essay, but to refrain from that, please actually read some work being done on how and what kinds of people get radicalized and you might understand that KF users in general are the most extreme forms that are nihilists (alt-right playbooks How to radicalize a normie is a good start.
  7. "If you are a target" -> This reads suspiciously like "log off", which is... how do I put this... it's not good advice?
  8. Removal of mikemikev as a target of the site. Why? We have an article on mikey boy, either him or a fan of his at times likes to troll our site. Feels more than warranted to mention him.
Personally I object to merger, but I'd like some secondary input. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree with Techpriest on this. Any remaining changes that Techpriest has not objected to can be made on the non-draft page to see if other people have objections. Generally speaking, new users should not immediately attempt wholesale rewrites of longstanding pages that reasonably good. Bongolian (talk) 19:17, 16 September 2021 (UTC)
I'm coming chiefly from the idea that the site doesn't deserve the effort and shouldn't be afforded the headspace. Likewise the guy who runs it - we don't really need hard evidence to infer that the person who'd run such a site would be a piece of shit, and I think it's better to spare them the fame. Same goes for much of the shittiness section, which in some places reads like a regular wrote it for its detailed mentions of site features and categories (I consider the mentions of Mike-whatshisface part of this), and it even contains live links in parts. Point taken on CWC - a quip that didn't belong (although now I'm questioning whether the entire incest part really bears mentioning at all in the article). Hard, hard disagree on the nihilist part - it's a comforting cliché (not to mention an easy way to blame the poor) that people who hurt others for pleasure are themselves miserable and desperate. At least in 2016, the "trigger the liberals, kill the immigrants" voters were very much the cushy suburban type, and they were more than happy to let the working class take the fall. It's not disgruntled nihilism, and the idea that it is, that they're those Joker figures who just want to see the world burn, is something that's actively being cultivated by them. It's just hype. Fuckeverything (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
The worst of Kiwi Farms activity is basically cyber-bullying. The only solid predictor I see for a cyber-bullying personality from Googling is the psychological trait of psychopathyWikipedia. I don't think income and cushy suburban life musings etc. is the right approach here. All the stuff I've seen of Mr. Moon himself points to a family that is neither very poor nor very wealthy. Psychopathy as a whole, if anything, leans a little towards higher income people (it's identified as a trait in some of the CEO and Wall Street class) but not always, for sure. I do think that some of Donald Trump's "biggest fans" might lean in the psychopath direction (though Trump is more a narcissist) but there actually is a spectrum of Trump voters that ranges from uber-fanboy to hold-my-nose-and-vote-Republican. Not everyone who voted for Trump is doing the QAnon dance. And it's quite probable to find someone with psychopath traits that did not vote for Trump, I'm sure. So you really can't use voting patterns, either. At any rate, you don't just ignore cyber-bullies. Most sites like this advise you, in addition to ignoring things, to also record all cyberbully activity as well. In the worst case scenarios if you need to get help from the police due to harassment, the documentation will help. The advise to let people know about what is going on is wise as well. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
How tf is pointing out that kiwifarms users are extreme edgy nihilists "blaming the poor". It's very transparent in their behavior. KF is an extreme of an extreme. The site is in that category of where it's considered basically a toxic poison pill by many of the people it in practice shares an audience with. They're not Joker figures who want to see the world burn, they're NEETs who live in their mom's basement who think it's bad to have emotions. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)
Who are offended by emotions. I mean the "because they're offended" part completely literally - this is literally a website about trying to hurt the people who offend you. Describing Encyclopedia Dramatica as "a wiki that pulls no punches" is also buying into the hype - it's much the same thing, privileged people being offended. Both are far removed from the image of edgy nihilism they're cultivating and I think it's an important point. My edits are largely because I find this incredibly important to highlight, as much as possible, in free speech discourse: the "get over it, snowflake" people being the biggest snowflakes there is, something the RWPC article also outlines. Point taken on documenting cyberstalking, that's something I wasn't thinking of and I shouldn't have any problems adding it in and sourcing it. What are some further opinions regarding the removal of references to the owner and the slimming down of the shittiness section? Fuckeverything (talk) 09:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)