Talk:Kiwi Farms/Archive1

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A Dead Horse (Re)Enters?

Heh, at the rate we're going, might as well add this site soon, eh? http://deadhorseinterchange.net/ Think of them as KiwiFarms lite, maybe? Chair tater (talk) 03:13, 22 September 2016 (UTC)

I checked that site a few days ago and judging by it's content, I'm surprised that you guys haven't done that already. Tinribmancer (talk) 18:02, 7 February 2018 (UTC)

Addtionial Info

Figured that I put this out there:

LOL Cow

LOLcow (a portmanteau of the acronym LOL and cow), is a derogatory slang term used to describe an eccentric individual who is deemed highly exploitable, and therefore susceptible to online trolling and flaming, due to their display of gullible behavior. Communities of harassers/trolls often document and discuss these victims at their expense, as they're fascinated by the abnormality of either their lives or behaviors. While some of with great power were considered to be a LOLcow (Donald Trump came to mind), they're more likely those with either mental disadvantage (like with those with Autism, or Gender Dysphoria) or have inconvient opinions (like Feminists and other Cultural Critics). Because of this, the ones that were obessed with LOLcows tends to be right leaning.

Can this be added to this article or should it be it's own thing? Melonhead (talk) 22:10, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I think someone can create an individual entry for lolcows. The term is not restricted to Kiwi Farms, but is now used commonly on many websites across the internet.Skeptical (talk) 22:12, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

And done. feel free to edit.Melonhead (talk) 23:53, 1 November 2017 (UTC)

I made some minor edits, note that although I retitled it to lolcow, Lol cow is a redirect. Skeptical (talk) 02:38, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

Joshua Connor Moon

We should include the quotes -- it makes it clear that he's not joking (or, is joking very poorly). oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 02:44, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

*Sighs* So what's next?

Like, are we seriously going to make a separate article on TRUEANDHONEST Weston Chandler? I really don't want to see that plague marine at all again, especially on this place. Well, maybe a fun article on Sonichu is more likely, but I don't want that either. If CWCki is anything to believe, we just (literally) opened a can of worms. K0rnsbl0d^{Let the galaxy burn!"Kill!Maim!Burn!"} 02:52, 16 February 2018 (UTC)

removal of categories

Nearly everyone on that forum is alt-right or at least right-wing and sexist or anti-feminist (pro-Gamergate types), as well as racist. Don't remove the categories.EvilGremlin (talk) 22:00, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

• [citation needed]. There's a thread that mocks the Alt-Right, funny how that's not acknowledged. --108.215.147.27 (talk) 00:15, 26 June 2018 (UTC)

Trolls from kiwi farms trying to vandalise and re-write article

User: Sailor Haumea is a Kiwi Farms troll. I suggest a sysop locks that page.EvilGremlin (talk) 22:05, 20 February 2018 (UTC)

I am not a troll. I just think that labeling the entire group as "racist" is inaccurate. And the stopped clock section wasn't inaccurate - I can provide sources. I ventured into the userbase yesterday but realized quickly that it's utterly horrifying after posting a few times. I quickly realized that two things are universal - their hatred of the mentally disabled and those who are transgendered. I proceeded to run as far away as possible. My intention was to point out that racism and homophobia aren't applicable terms to the majority of the userbase. However, sexism and transphobia ARE something that is universal there. Sailor Haumea (talk) 02:18, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@Sailor Haumea, you're not helping your case by edit warring on the Kiwi Farms page. If someone reverts your edits, you should take it to the talk page and not persist on trying to get your way without discussion. Yes, references would help your case, but it helps to include references in the beginning so that people have a better understanding of your motivations. Bongolian (talk) 02:26, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

@ Sailor, most Kiwi Farms users have alt-right/neo-Nazi political views, but they attack alt-right/neo-Nazi individuals like Richard Spencer in other threads, or they defame people who are non-Nazis as Nazis... None of it is meant to make any sense because it's a forum for malicious trolls. The sign up page on Kiwi Farms even encourages harassment. The main purpose of Kiwi Farms is to abuse Google traffic, so if someone's searches their name they will find smears, lewd descriptions and ad hominem in their thread titles. I don't know anyone who uses it as an accurate source of information, its like Encylopedia dramatica.EvilGremlin (talk) 03:55, 21 February 2018 (UTC)

So, what's the reason behind the article being listed under Authoritarian Wingnuttery?

I'm wondering what is the reason that the article is listed under that category? SDSD (talk) 07:51, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

It would seem to be because of the founder's being an alt-righter, a Trump supporter, and a genocide supporter. Bongolian (talk) 16:53, 19 May 2018 (UTC)

@Bongolian There's also that Kiwi Farms tends to single out ethnic (i.e. hispanics, blacks, Jews), religious (i.e. Muslims, Jews) and sexual (i.e. gays, transgenders) minorities, as well as people with mental illnesses and disabilities, for harassment, indicating a strong racist, homophobic, transphobic and ableist stance, not unlike how the Nazis targeted such people for persecution and ultimately extermination. SDSD (talk) 23:28, 8 June 2018 (UTC)

Same reason it has "ableist" as a real term ^{— Unsigned, by: 152.27.31.194 / talk}

kiwi farm not co operating with the investigation of Christchurch shootings

I’m unable to give a full writght up on this but https://www.news.com.au/technology/online/website-kiwi-farms-refuses-to-surrender-data-linked-to-accused-christchurch-terrorist-brendan-tarrant/news-story/46d3c925ef84b24dde6194c42b3c2241 seems wroth adding to this page. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8004:12c0:9fa:ec84:4113:2e03:3c76 / talk / contribs}

Lol the article seems to originally have been titled "Incels refuse to surrender data on Christchurch terror accused" (look at the source code!). Don't know who incel refers to, probably the admin of the site. Virgin-shaming much? --87.177.125.213 (talk) 15:02, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

"Incel" refers to hate-filled bigotted internet people. Don't know why you think it means "virgin". ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:05, 19 March 2019 (UTC)

Truth

— Oxyaena ^Harass 21:44, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

They also have a thread on AVEN

And they're acephobes. Probably worth noting. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 17:25, 7 August 2019 (UTC)

Kiwi Farms are still pissed at us

As of December 30th, 2019, the Kiwi Farms thread on RationalWiki is spanning 126 pages. There seem to have been no new posts since last new years eve, though this may not necessarily mean that the creepy crawlies have let go of their grudge against us yet. Boneless (talk) 01:25, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Updated registration disclaimer?

It's also worth noting that the "point of no return" warning when you try to register has been updated.

Our community is tight and usually inwardly friendly. However, we are surrounded by entities who hate us. Some of these people are dangerous and so furious they are talked about in an environment they cannot control they will resort to criminal behavior directed to both the site itself and the people who use it.

While we encourage anyone interested to join, it is strongly suggested you read our Cybersecurity 101 thread for tips on how to exercise your speech safely both on and off this website.

We have no rules on language. This site is not for minors.

Boneless (talk) 15:29, 10 February 2020 (UTC)

Gutian nuked their channel

Unfortionately, Gutain's video "Kiwi Farms Is The Worst Place Online" is no longer available. They even taken down their channel. At least they will be remembered. Boneless (talk) 12:28, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

definition of LOLCOW

Someone more interesting and creative than the userbase of Kiwi Farms, so they choose to mock their superiors. I say this as a LOLCOW with a 38 page thread, which would have been 2 had I not ranted about it on my personal website and joined the forum. Electricbassguy (talk) 20:57, 29 September 2020 (UTC)

Chloe Sagal

https://www.dailydot.com/irl/chloe-sagal-suicide-cyberbullying-harassment/ https://variety.com/2018/gaming/news/chloe-sagal-death-1202858068/ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kiwi_Farms#Suicide_of_Chloe_Sagal

Shouldn't she be in this article? Wikipedia is even mentioning her. 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:1C4D:4ED1:3A14:77F3 (talk) 09:57, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Null's location needs an updating

Regarding the lede, "Kiwi Farms is an immensely creepy American stalking forum run by manchild Joshua Conner Moon out of his mom's house"

As of many years ago I think Null was on the run from the federal government and fled to the Ukraine.. now in Serbia. He might have been in Australia and Philippines before then. Everywhere he goes, they kick him out. ^{— Unsigned, by: 204.112.199.126 / talk / contribs}

@204.112.199.126 On talk pages, please sign your comments using four tildes (~~~~) or by clicking on the sign button: on the toolbar above the edit panel. You can also indent successive talk page comments using one more colon (:) for each line. Thank you.

Might be true, but can you in any way substantiate these claims? --Goatspeed. _{Stalk me}CircularRasoning^{Prototype lab} 02:40, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

Joshua Moon has never been on the run from the federal government. Fagin Twist (talk) 08:03, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

That begs the question: Why did he move in the first place? He pussied out after Smith gave him some of his just desserts, but that doesn't answer exactly why he moved. — Oxyaena ^Harass 08:05, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

It's raises the question. Fagin Twist (talk) 08:09, 15 December 2020 (UTC)

"If you are a target"

Still think it's worth having such a section. Disregarding what a bunch of creepy fucks think about you is an acquired skill that's not so obvious of a solution when you're, say, a teenager. Fuckeverything (talk) 07:03, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

You would need to be able to cite something reliable that confirms whatever you claim. Bongolian (talk) 08:08, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

The issue isn’t the lack of citation as no claims are being made. I’ve already said why I don’t think the section should be included, although I’ll add that “just ignore it” is something most teenagers will have already heard. Christopher (talk) 08:16, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

For what it's worth, in my experience, being told "just ignore it" context-free when you're a teenager just sounds like some BS from out-of-touch adults who don't give a damn. It's obviously the best advice with the hindsight of adulthood, but only when you've been able to figure out why, which isn't at all obvious without some life experience. Hence not "just ignore it" so much as "ignore it because they're assholes whose opinions don't matter." Fuckeverything (talk) 08:45, 20 June 2021 (UTC)

Near suicide

Near wrote in his own words before taking his life "Kiwi Farms has made the harassment orders of magnitude worse. It's escalated from attacking me for being autistic, to attacking and doxing my friends, and trying to suicide bait another, just to get a reaction from me. I lost one of my best friends to this. I feel responsible." [1] 138.68.178.34 (talk) 20:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

And? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 20:40, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

What's your point here? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 20:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Assuming good faith for a moment here; this situation is developing. I'm being cautious in what is being included and what I'm omitting for now. This could be anything from a mere nuisance to someone deliberately keeping KF offline for ages. Whomever is doing the DOS; they broke through CFs protection which is pretty impressive (yet at the same time not, I'll explain this later once things settle, I don't want to turn the article into live-edits). I understand and empathize with Nears suicide (I posted about it in the Bar for god's sake), but for now I'm keeping info on the page limited to avoid unnecessary bloat.

As for the point; this is a link and excerpt from the actual suicide note. Techpriest (talk) 21:24, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

I see. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:42, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

Josh Moon's Antisemitism

This article claims that he is an anti-semite and uses two sources from twitter, both of which seem like jokes and require more context. While I believe Null is a piece of shit, I would err on the side of caution in making this specific claim, unless there are other sources that can corroborate it.^{— Unsigned, by: Fijineet / talk / contribs}

If you don't understand how "cutting off jewish fingers to make a necklace out of them" is rather antisemitic, especially if it's as a joke I don't know what to tell you. Granted this might just be edgy shit (most of his stuff is done to be edgy), but being ironically antisemitic in public is still being antisemitic in public. Techpriest (talk) 12:11, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

I suspect Fijineet is a sock. — Oxyaena ^Harass 12:43, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

Then change the wording of the article to "he has made anti-semetic jokes in the past". I did create my account to make this comment, but I'm not trying to defend Null or Kiwifarms. I simply think that if we make a claim, that claim has to be corroborated with more substantial evidence than two joke tweets. What do you mean, "especially if"? If it's a joke, then it devalues the claim because Null doesn't actually believe it. Fijineet

An antisemitic joke is still an antisemitic joke. It doesn't matter if he "actually believes it" or not, the material effect is the same. — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:53, 1 July 2021 (UTC)

No, what Techpriest said is that the joke is "rather antisemetic, especially if it's as a joke," but if it's a joke then it devalues the claim that Null is an anti-semite because he does not actually believe what he's saying. I don't understand why the same standard is not being applied for this claim. He called Obama the n-word and believes in the white genocide theory, but this article doesn't even call him racist, it just says that "he keeps racists in company" and "his account was banned for racism". He's posted before that Muslims need to be killed and doesn't give a fuck about refugees, and the contexts do not imply that those are jokes. And yet with such a highly specific, outlandish threat that he's going to cut off the fingers of Jewish people, with nearly no context attached, I think these are jokes and claiming that he's an anti-semite requires more evidence. I'm not even advocating for its erasure of the page; I merely think that it can be edited for accuracy. "Null tweeted at a Jewish journalist asking for his fingers" and such. — Fijineet (talk)

Look, I know you guys are gonna get angry at me, but it's probably just a joke. I'm a free speech guy, and I just think that free speech is free speech. If you wanna crack a joke then crack one open. ^{— Unsigned, by: Viril.Feline.Wyyzrd / talk / contribs}

Cyber-bullying and Suicide

https://www.ign.com/articles/near-bsnes-remembrance

"The emulation and fan localization communities are seeing an outpouring of memorials and grief today after the reported death of Near, who was the force behind both the BSNES emulator and the Bahamut Lagoon fan translation.

Also known as Byuu, Near took their own life over the weekend. A friend confirmed the reports circulating social media, but asked for privacy.

Community members took to social media to express their sadness following the tragedy, praising Near's work and talking about the positive impact they had on their life. Many expressed anger at the online bullying that ultimately pushed Near to take their life, their outrage centered on Kiwi Farms, a forum with a reputation for vicious targeted online harassment.

In a series of messages published on Twitter, Near talked about the online attacks and doxing that they and their friends suffered from Kiwi Farms, saying, "The internet is not a game. It's real life. I'm a real person."

Near was famous for their detailed, perfectionist approach to their work. They were particularly passionate about game preservation, and dedicated the development of BSNES — later renamed Higan — to being as accurate as possible. Their accomplishments include overclocking the virtual SNES processor without any distortion, with spectacular results.

In remembrance of their contributions to the emulation community, Ars Technica republished a piece from Near that delved into the coding of the BSNES and how SNES emulators were able to get "a few pixels from complete perfection." Back in March, Vice Games published an account of Near's perfectionist quest to localize Bahamut Lagoon, a cult 16-bit RPG that never made it to North America."

Maybe worth mentioning in the article? 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:1456:3370:48C2:3B4A (talk) 14:25, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

It is mentioned: "On June 27, 2021, Near, the developer of the popular SNES emulator higan[17] took their own life after a 3 year long harassment campaign by the site. The forums responded largely with mockery[20] and outright denial of the suicide in the first place[21], even as repeated evidence came forward that Near indeed committed suicide. In response, the site got DDOSed the next couple of days." Scream!! (talk) 14:36, 4 July 2021 (UTC)

Definitely needs a rewrite now

So, I come back a couple weeks later and find out they killed someone IRL. Again. Nevermind the section, it's an entire rewrite that's needed, and badly. Cut the kid gloves. Fuckeverything (talk) 14:46, 9 July 2021 (UTC)

Chris-Chan And Null Relationship

So, Chris-Chan entered the scene again, especially to the KF community, for chats stating that they raped their mother.

Also, it turns out that Josh/Null has a longstanding relationship with Chris, including often helping do GoFundMe's for various expenses over the years, but is only now cutting off contact:

[link removed] ^{— Unsigned, by: Mmoore29 / talk / contribs}

Mod note: don't link to Kiwi Farms please. Techpriest (talk) 21:07, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

To follow-up on this with an actual comment; It seems like Null grew a conscience of sorts (for as so far as that psychopath can have one for hosting KF in the first place) somewhere in 2018 when a group of people somehow even worse than KF began convincing CWC that their webcomic reality would merge with our reality, as well as increasing the amount of weird sexual behavior that was always attached to CWCs behavior to even more disgusting degrees (since I'm not gonna make this place a gossip blog about CWWC, don't continue this line of discussion). Null helped them cut contact with these people (again, he's still a fucking jackass for all the reasons we have listed in the article) and seems to have tried to prevent CWC from going further out of control, but CWC kept believing a lot of shit that they got told by these people. CWC becoming a literal motherfucker is probably an outgrowth of that behavior. I'm gonna urge some form of caution for now; we don't want to write about a bunch of details while the fires are still burning. It's best to be somewhat conservative in our coverage until the dust settles. There's no good people involved with that entire situation and we don't want to accidentally dig ourselves into a pit we can't get out of. Techpriest (talk) 21:16, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

At this point it might be better perhaps to remove any reference to Chris-chan on this article. GeeJayK (talk) 21:19, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Given the nature of the site, that's impossible. Techpriest (talk) 21:25, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

How about removing only the "who is notorious across the web for her bizarre crossover web comic between video game characters Sonic the HedgehogWikipedia and Pikachu, called 'Sonichu'." part? GeeJayK (talk) 21:27, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Eh... In my eyes there's no issue with what we currently mention about CWC. I'm more urging caution about adding new things. Techpriest (talk) 21:38, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Sorry, I was trying to help, and thought this might be something to talk about, especially regarding this weird contradiction about Null. Mmoore29 (talk) 02:35, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Submitting a draft of a partial rewrite

Here. Feel free to edit or delete if inappropriate. Fuckeverything (talk) 06:18, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

Could at least have told us what you changed. Anyway, going through and doing some comparisons.

1. Not a fan of squishing down our opening paragraph to something far less informative. Strong opposition to merging this.
2. Josh was only tied to Christchurch because his response to authorities asking him to hand over information of his users was a dumb rant. It's by far not what defines the place.
3. Josh kinda does warrant mention, if only for the hypocrisy of the site. He'd be one of their major stalking targets if he wasn't an admin.
4. Outright removed information in the general shittiness article - why?
5. CWC did fuck their mom. They've been arrested for this. I see no reason to pursue that further, but no we are not going to cast doubt on what appears to be genuine statements.
6. "Why do they do it" -> Very poor paragraph to the point of being hilariously bad. I could unpack this with an entire essay, but to refrain from that, please actually read some work being done on how and what kinds of people get radicalized and you might understand that KF users in general are the most extreme forms that are nihilists (alt-right playbooks How to radicalize a normie is a good start.
7. "If you are a target" -> This reads suspiciously like "log off", which is... how do I put this... it's not good advice?
8. Removal of mikemikev as a target of the site. Why? We have an article on mikey boy, either him or a fan of his at times likes to troll our site. Feels more than warranted to mention him.

Personally I object to merger, but I'd like some secondary input. -- Techpriest (talk) 18:28, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Techpriest on this. Any remaining changes that Techpriest has not objected to can be made on the non-draft page to see if other people have objections. Generally speaking, new users should not immediately attempt wholesale rewrites of longstanding pages that reasonably good. Bongolian (talk) 19:17, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

I'm coming chiefly from the idea that the site doesn't deserve the effort and shouldn't be afforded the headspace. Likewise the guy who runs it - we don't really need hard evidence to infer that the person who'd run such a site would be a piece of shit, and I think it's better to spare them the fame. Same goes for much of the shittiness section, which in some places reads like a regular wrote it for its detailed mentions of site features and categories (I consider the mentions of Mike-whatshisface part of this), and it even contains live links in parts. Point taken on CWC - a quip that didn't belong (although now I'm questioning whether the entire incest part really bears mentioning at all in the article). Hard, hard disagree on the nihilist part - it's a comforting cliché (not to mention an easy way to blame the poor) that people who hurt others for pleasure are themselves miserable and desperate. At least in 2016, the "trigger the liberals, kill the immigrants" voters were very much the cushy suburban type, and they were more than happy to let the working class take the fall. It's not disgruntled nihilism, and the idea that it is, that they're those Joker figures who just want to see the world burn, is something that's actively being cultivated by them. It's just hype. Fuckeverything (talk) 16:54, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

The worst of Kiwi Farms activity is basically cyber-bullying. The only solid predictor I see for a cyber-bullying personality from Googling is the psychological trait of psychopathy. I don't think income and cushy suburban life musings etc. is the right approach here. All the stuff I've seen of Mr. Moon himself points to a family that is neither very poor nor very wealthy. Psychopathy as a whole, if anything, leans a little towards higher income people (it's identified as a trait in some of the CEO and Wall Street class) but not always, for sure. I do think that some of Donald Trump's "biggest fans" might lean in the psychopath direction (though Trump is more a narcissist) but there actually is a spectrum of Trump voters that ranges from uber-fanboy to hold-my-nose-and-vote-Republican. Not everyone who voted for Trump is doing the QAnon dance. And it's quite probable to find someone with psychopath traits that did not vote for Trump, I'm sure. So you really can't use voting patterns, either. At any rate, you don't just ignore cyber-bullies. Most sites like this advise you, in addition to ignoring things, to also record all cyberbully activity as well. In the worst case scenarios if you need to get help from the police due to harassment, the documentation will help. The advise to let people know about what is going on is wise as well. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 19:03, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

How tf is pointing out that kiwifarms users are extreme edgy nihilists "blaming the poor". It's very transparent in their behavior. KF is an extreme of an extreme. The site is in that category of where it's considered basically a toxic poison pill by many of the people it in practice shares an audience with. They're not Joker figures who want to see the world burn, they're NEETs who live in their mom's basement who think it's bad to have emotions. -- Techpriest (talk) 19:48, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Who are offended by emotions. I mean the "because they're offended" part completely literally - this is literally a website about trying to hurt the people who offend you. Describing Encyclopedia Dramatica as "a wiki that pulls no punches" is also buying into the hype - it's much the same thing, privileged people being offended. Both are far removed from the image of edgy nihilism they're cultivating and I think it's an important point. My edits are largely because I find this incredibly important to highlight, as much as possible, in free speech discourse: the "get over it, snowflake" people being the biggest snowflakes there is, something the RWPC article also outlines. Point taken on documenting cyberstalking, that's something I wasn't thinking of and I shouldn't have any problems adding it in and sourcing it. What are some further opinions regarding the removal of references to the owner and the slimming down of the shittiness section? Fuckeverything (talk) 09:09, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

-- This assertion is irresponsible and should certainly not be included, even in a less obscene version, in the article text. Arrest doesn't mean guilt. Only a trial verdict establishes guilt. The trial is not yet over. Anarchic Teapot (talk) 14:39, 22 August 2022 (UTC)

Josh lost his XenForo license

I feel like this should be placed under the "Banned" part of JCM's section. He lost his XenForo license recently (2 or 3 months ago) and is trying to make his own forum software in Rust. Nothing too crazy but it's something of note. Archive link because KF has been getting mega DDoSed! Obsessednullfan (talk) 22:15, 15 February 2022 (UTC)

Removed links

I removed the kiwi farms links because it does not look safe and might have a virus because my friend got onto this site a day before his computer broke. Wik ₁₀ 22:12, 17 August 2022 (UTC)

I'm not exactly sure if it's the site causing this to happen but we really shouldn't be linking to this site anyway. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:43, 23 August 2022 (UTC)

Seems likely someone hacked it and took it offline. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 00:05, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

@CogitoNotStirred The link you posted is broken. I think you need to take out the |. Vomitorium (talk) 00:30, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

@Vomitorium Thanks, fixed. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

It was apparently back online anyway. Cloudflare, what's the hold up. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:53, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

It has always taken a lot of pressure for Cloudflare to cease services to sites like these, remember what it took for them to give the boot to 8chan? Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 14:06, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Don't get me wrong, I still remember what they did to Near and want this site to dissapear, but it's not like Cloudflare kicking them will make the website go away anyway. I'm not going to visit it to confirm, but I'm pretty sure they are using Cloudflare's reverse proxy (meaning the actual server is somewhere else, probably in some shady Russian "bulletproof" hosting provider), and they also use Cloudflare as domain registrar as I can see from the whois, which means they can easily just register new domains with a different registrar and resume operations. It will much more effective to go after the non-anonymous admin, Joshua Conner Moon. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 14:40, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Regarding not linking directly to KF, yes it's best to link to archived copies. Bongolian (talk) 17:14, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Looks like Kiwi Farms' behavior was so shitty that Cloudflare finally decided to block them from their services. Now, this is the same Cloudflare that previously had written this blog post where they regretted blocking terrorism enablers 8chan and the similarly shitty trolling Daily Stormer because of libertarian blinders or something. Quite amazing that these folks have sunk below those depths... 35.140.177.2 (talk) 22:39, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

"We are also not taking this action directly because of the pressure campaign". Also this, "Kiwifarms has frequently been host to revolting content. Revolting content alone does not create an emergency situation that necessitates the action we are taking today", yeah, sure, large scale cyberbullying and doxxing does not create a emergency situation, right guys?. Ultimately, I agree with them in one thing only, using de-platforming of this style to target websites goes nowhere. At the end, the way to deal with Kiwifarms is making the admin face justice. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 22:52, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

Yeah maybe they should reevaluate their ideology but you know they won't. Libertarianism has generally been an excuse to enable harm to people. Same song and dance. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:01, 3 September 2022 (UTC)

The forum is back online .ru instead of .net. I don't think there is any way to remove it now. They are using a Russia-based domain registrar and Russian DDoS mitigation company. Boar (talk) 03:11, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Cloudflare is unique in being both very big (Akamai / Verizon sized) and very stable, and also having that oh-so-Silicon-Valley freeze peach ethos where booting off sites that host illegal content, even no brainers like child porn or DDOS-for-hire, is resisted until law enforcement cross every T and dot every I. I imagine most other large Internet companies wouldn't even give KF the time of day. (Honestly, I can see problems with Cloudflare's ethos for them in the future given tightening regulations on things like hate speech, child exploitation, etc. in some countries. For instance, freeze peach absolutism don't exactly jive with EU regulations like GDPR and DSA. But we'll see.)

Most of the other sites that support hosting criminal content are a lot dodgier in nature, and a lot more unstable in practice. Yes, it does appear that Kiwifarms is back up under some shady Russian arrangement (DDOS-Guard, of course). However, per keffals it looks like their server arrangements at the moment are an Las Vegas company called Fiberhub... that could easily change and KF would have to flee to something else dodgier. 8Chan and Daily Stormer became shells of themselves after the Cloudflare boot, partially IMHO due to the dodginess and constant changing their hosting arrangements (in part due to constant pressure). De-platforming doesn't get rid of the pond scum of the Internet, but I'm guessing it might dent some of the brigading by making it harder to gather. We'll see if this happens in this case as well. 35.140.177.2 (talk) 03:32, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

They've changed web host like a dozen times. In 2016 they were hosted by Gandi.net but who removed them after finding child porn on the forum (screenshot of emails). It is very easy to find a new web host. Joshua has changed web hosts many times so if he is dropped again he will find another web hosting company. This is why I think trying to take Kiwi Farms offline will not succeed and is a waste of time. Kiwi Farms also changed their domain host last year after DreamHost stopped being the registrar after receiving complaints about harassment. Boar (talk) 03:47, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

There was a serious attempt to take the website permanently offline 5-6 years ago. The longest period was about 2 weeks in 2017 after various people started contacting Joshua's family members and that put pressure on him to delete it (but after a few weeks he brought it back online). Keffals so far has only succeeded in taking the forum offline for a few hours, not even a single day. The forum is despicable like Daily Stormer but Joshua is an unemployed man and 24/7 is dedicated to keeping it online. Boar (talk) 04:03, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Whether it stays down permanently or not, I can't imagine it's fun for Joshua to have to keep changing hosts and going through maintenance to keep his toilet stable. So, any way at all, even petty, to make his life generally miserable, is welcome. BumblingBuffoon (talk) 10:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

DDOS-Guard lol. But yeah, just as expected, switch registrars and reverse proxy, resume operations. @Boar I agree with you, even if they successfully pressure Fiberhub or Fiberhub's upstream to block Kiwifarms/drop all conections from and to Fiberhub, there are plently of no fucks given russian web hosts that would gladly host them as long as they get paid, and these ones are not exactly known for caring about what they host or what others think of them. At least to me, trying to do this is a waste of time. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 10:28, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Nah, hosts that wink and nudge at illegal content typically are dodgier and therefore a lot less stable. DDOS-Guard is a great example, their protection from DDOS attacks etc. is dogshit compared to Cloudflare. Given how Kiwi Farms loves to piss everyone off I expect a lot more downtime in the future. I agree with BumblingBuffoon, it's less about knocking them offline and more about keeping them on their toes.

The "do nothing" stance has bad optics anyways. Kiwi Farms generally hasn't receive a whole lot of media coverage over the years. A little bit during the Near suicide in gaming / nerd circles, and occasional mentions elsewhere, but by and large KF is under the radar. Keffals has succeeded in getting KF in both the media and politics to some degree. Often the "common sense" reaction to KF is, "this site is for harassing and stalking users, why is it allowed to exist?" I mean, even the lone brain cell of Marjorie Taylor Greene thought that. Now, the Cloudflare decision brought out loads of freeze peach absolutists trolls on certain threads (esp. on SV type places) defending KF's harassment and stalking culture. That's honestly a really bad look there. It just reinforces the SV Lawless Big Tech Boogeyman stereotype, a culture that shrugs its shoulders even at most noxious illegal behavior. To me, this flippant attitude actually makes it even more likely that the Internet will eventually get more stringently regulated by the government, which will be of course a far worse outcome compared to if Internet companies policed themselves. I can see a politician, for instance, using KF cyberstalking threads alone in order to try to destroy Section 230. Never mind the true politics, it'd be pretty easy to put together a emotion-tugging argument just with that, wouldn't it? 35.140.177.2 (talk) 19:02, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Yes, it is easy to make emotional appeals with stuff like this, one only needs to look at the UK's history in passing internet regulations (their porn block was basically Think of the children!!!11!!!1one!!) and the endless calls and attempts to end E2E encryption worldwide. I don't really see how this is effective self regulation, to be honest. We block Kiwi Farms until their only host is a Raspberry Pi in the middle of nowhere, rural Russia, then...? You say that, due to Kiwifarms (rightfully) pissing of a lot of people, they are constantly under DDoS attacks, which are now presumably more effective now that their choice of protection is much, much inferior to Cloudflare's, but it still doesn't really do anything in my opinion, DDoS attacks don't go on forever, and they either cost money in Internet connections and devices/requires hacking devices to use in attacks/require a lot of volunteers willing to keep their devices running 24/7. But you're right, going the government regulation route is likely a lot worse than this (GFW-style blocking to ensure that Kiwifarms is blocked in the countries where regulations against sites like Kiwifarms exists). I will concede that this is perhaps the best we can do regarding Kiwifarms, at least for now. But still... . What does SV mean, by the way? Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 19:33, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

SV=Silicon Valley. 35.140.177.2 (talk) 21:13, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

CloudFlare has finally dropped KiwiFarms for going too far

Most notably, in thanks to an anti-harrasment campaign from one of their 'lolcows'. ^{— Unsigned, by: Melonhead / talk / contribs}

Yeah looks like they pissed off too many people in the process as well, not just keffals. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 02:59, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

Kiwifarms is still up their now in the .ru domain zone. ^{— Unsigned, by: 77.204.197.54 / talk}

Kiwifarms is now offline, they have been booted off ru. [2], [3], Josh has said he is closing the website due to a family "emergency" [4] and says [5] "I do not see a situation where the Kiwi Farms is simply allowed to operate". He says it may become like Daily Stormer jumping between hosts but I find this unlikely. It is very likely the Farms has gone for good! 139.59.180.153 (talk) 16:11, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

KF is too shitty for DDOS-Guard? That's pretty amazing. (Also, LOL @ DDOS-Guard having better optics on this issue than Cloudflare.) 35.140.177.2 (talk) 17:02, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

When dealing with phishing scams and such, I actually find that the Russian hosts are often quicker to kick someone off than a lot of American hosts these days. I suspect a lot of it has to do with authoritarian government vs. democratic government; in America and the EU, hosts don't want to tick the public off over censorship while in Russia they don't want to tick the government off for NOT censoring, or put another way, in America, politicians fear the voters, in Soviet Russia, voters fear the politicians. 71.208.x.x (talk) 17:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘

Joshua complaining about drama [6]? Are you kidding me? Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 19:53, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

He claims victimhood and then proceeds to use a derogatory word to his opponents in the same breath or just tries cryptic messaging to get people to say derogatory words as if derogatory words are little toys to be played with. That part where he apparently labeled people as a "coalition of criminals",[7] well, not sure if he sincerely has the same self-awareness as mashed potatoes in front of a mirror or he's just being really terrible at lying. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:03, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I think he has been lying for so long he's starting to get high of his own supply. I think he actually believes the lies he tells now, that's what too much exposure to *chan and kiwifarms does to you, like 4chan "ironic" posters turning into non-ironic alt-right members over time. Rabbitseatcarrots (talk) 20:19, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ There's also tweet showing alleged German authority going after someone[8] but I'm highly skeptical of the authenticity of the supposed letter and whatnot and am more inclined to think this is just a self-persecution stunt for cheap sympathy points for the time being. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:23, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

Maybe now someone can try to build a healthier gossip site. IE one not rooted in harassing neurodivergent people. 2600:4040:4023:D600:CC0F:E1F9:E143:7A37 (talk) 23:28, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

I really wish I could, no alternatives seem to exist.--RadicalRadish (talk) 19:40, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Hard to feel sympathy for either side to be honest, especially a site like Kiwifarms. It was about time Kiwifarms was shut down.--RadicalRadish (talk) 19:40, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

Internet Archive has also purged it from their site, so now there's a whole bunch of links that don't work.--2601:143:8200:6E70:44DB:B2B8:566:5DC9 (talk) 22:54, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

That sucks, I really wanted to see if there was more to this scenario. Anyways, I'm kinda split on this issue. Preservation is important for research and stuff so we can learn from the future. It might also be useful in the event of a criminal investegation considering recent events. But then again, it was a website made to harass people.--RadicalRadish (talk) 01:03, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Kiwi Farms was a site that promoted illegal activity and also had many threads with big time data privacy violations (doxing). The Internet Archive will exclude sites that promote illegal activity (though I imagine they still have the data, it's just not public). It's not unprecedented. For instance, known historical revenge porn sites are also excluded from the Wayback Machine. (I wonder if this factoid also pisses off those freeze peach trolls moaning about the Kiwi Farms de-platforming. Probably...) 35.140.177.2 (talk) 02:31, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Looks like they were the real “whiny hugbox rapidly declining website” all along. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 02:49, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Kiwi Farms: What's next?

Joshua Conner Moon wrote: “I do not see a situation where the Kiwi Farms is simply allowed to operate. It will either become a fractured shell of itself, like 8chan, or jump between hosts and domain names like Daily Stormer.”

He seems to have largely given up. He's like a bully that got punched in the nose and backs off. The website was a popular website for bullies and got 10,0000,000 visits a month.

So what's next? IvanK (talk) 23:31, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

What's next for what? If it's gone then ignore it. Also, people take SimilarWeb stats way too seriously. It overestimates unique visitors a day by over 4x. Kiwifarms got about 83,000 visits a day before getting security services pulled, not hundreds of thousands. Jorsh22 (talk) 23:58, 6 September 2022 (UTC)

The Daily Stormer website is still up, but it has a new URL. Alex Jones's InfoWars website is still up. If the Kiwi Farms website got about 83,000 visits a day, I expect it will find a hosting service somewhere in the world or become a fractured shell of itself, like 8chan, or jump between hosts and domain names like Daily Stormer. If there is an audience of 83,000 visits a day, I don't think the audience is going to totally evaporate. The audience is like water. It you put an obstacle in its way, it will just go around the obstacle and flow somewhere else. The people who go to Kiwi Farms are not going to change the type of people they are. They will just go to a place on the internet that is as similar to Kiwifarms as possible. IvanK (talk) 00:30, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

Using the water analogy, if you take a small stream and then spread it across a wider area to take away its depth, it becomes easier to evaporate.BumblingBuffoon (talk) 02:59, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

The online community of Kiwi Farms is going to take a hit, but how big of a hit I don't know. Vox Day's blog was taken down by Google, but it still gets up to 2 million visits a month at its new location. Once a website/blog gets a following a certain percentage of people follow it to the new location. And with Russia being a pariah state now, Joshua Moon might eventually find it easier to get a Russian to host it. It's too early to tell what's going to happen. It might come down to money. At the right price, he might get some Russian cooperation. IvanK (talk) 06:26, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

I was right. Money talks. This news story was posted 6 hours ago: Hate-filled Kiwi Farms message board finds new home with Southwest Washington tech company. IvanK (talk) 06:35, 7 September 2022 (UTC)

He Goes by "Null"?

And nobody is going to comment how "null" is a term for those without physical manifestations of sex? There is a sexual fetish to have one's genitals removed and become "null." Not "agender" in that they don't associate with either but rather they wish to be physically without the primary sex characteristics.

The irony of someone who is so set against transgender people naming themselves after a term for someone without sex organs is quite strong. ^{— Unsigned, by: 136.226.65.17 / talk / contribs}

fascism category

I removed the category for it not being comfortably applicable to Kiwi Farms. Kiwi Farms's userbase is faschy but the site itself not really. It's a weird conglomeration of internet extremists and criminals that try to harm people, but it's not a website primarily espousing fascism. My edit got reverted however[9] The "alt-right" category fits this site better anyway, and fascism IS covered underneath it. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:40, 21 December 2022 (UTC)

Should the article mention that some RationalWiki users were also interested in Kiwi Farms?

According to Similarweb at one point, RationalWiki users also showed interest in Kiwi Farms. Should this be mentioned in the article? Obviously, it's not something to be proud of, but it could be included to more objectively cover the topic. Fja2021 (talk) 10:06, 22 March 2023 (UTC)

^{[citation needed]} and irrelevance aside, Similarweb is shit. According to the current snapshot, Similarweb lists nationalvanguard.org (aka Kevin Alfred Strom's neo-Nazi webshite) as a "competitor". WTF? There's some other less stark but still strange associations, such as SimilarWeb thinking that RationalWiki has a lot of Dragon Ball fans. Maybe? BobJohnson (talk) 13:25, 22 March 2023 (UTC)