Talk:Norman Finkelstein

From RationalWiki
Jump to: navigation, search
Icon sociology.svg This article contains information about one or more living persons.

Articles about living people must be handled carefully, because they are more open to legal threats.
Reference any contentious allegations solidly; unreferenced allegations should be removed.
If legal threats are raised on this page, please direct the potential litigant to RationalWiki:Legal FAQ; do not interact with them.

"This page contains too many unsourced statements..."[edit]

Seven references for an article this length is pretty good for us. Are there any particular passages you're concerned about? If I knew the way/I would take you home. 16:48, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

The content of those sources (none of which are particularly mainstream), and much of the biography, especially the Kagan bit. Finkelstein has been known for stepping over lines. Osaka Sun (talk) 16:52, 22 June 2013 (UTC)

Slight bias?[edit]

(Almost) all his statements are presented as gospel truth while there is hardly criticism of some of his.... non-mainstream (to say the least) positions. While this might somehow still be the case, there should be more than enough refs to back this up. None are presented. How come? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 22:23, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

The right and the left love their favorite token Jew.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 23:03, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
What do you mean by that? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 23:28, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
They can both deflect accusations of antisemitism by citing him.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 14:43, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Any Jew who says thing Arisboch doesn't like, and who is cited by Israel/Zionism critics, gets the ugly slur of "token Jew" lobbed at him. Arisboc alsomade this claim about Max Blumenthal and the accusation is equally repugnant in that case.---Mona- (talk) 15:23, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, how dare I to steal your fig leafs, right?--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 15:27, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
AS with so many articles here, this one is poorly sourced. It's largely accurate, and I added a citation, but more are needed. Can't editors here use search engines to get support?!---Mona- (talk) 15:36, 4 September 2015 (UTC)
Some Islamophobes like (mis)quoting Ayaan Hirsi Ali. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 16:39, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Elie Wiesel[edit]

The article about him and Elie Wiesel doesn't mention anything beyond cheap shots against him. Does anyone know more about Finkelstein enmity towards Wiesel?--(((The Kigel))) (talk) (mail) 19:03, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 19:03, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

I think this article should avoid taking a stance on who was or is right without giving much more context on the issue. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 19:42, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
I don't have links but from what I understand Finkelstein dislikes Wiesel's attempts to create a "uniqueness" around the Holocaust and that he turned it into a religiously ennobling event; I remember reading that Wiesel tried to prevent the Holocaust Museum from including the Romani. Wiesel was also criticized for his support for fraud and plagiarist, Jerzy Kosinski. I am also aware that Wiesel was criticized for his defense of Israeli settlements and the 2014 Gaza incursion but I don't know if Finkelstein has criticized him for this.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 20:23, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 20:23, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
I am story if this is a stupid question, but isn't the Holocaust unique by sheer scope alone? another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 20:24, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Depends on how you count the Native American genocide but I deplore the idea that the number of those killed creates a sort of incomparable atrocity; when you do this you effectively declare that all other atrocities are "ordinary". Also, Wiesel had published a report that incorrectly stated that the Jews were the first victims of the Holocaust and they were the sole victims targeted for extermination. This is another example of "uniqueness" (that the Jews were the only ones to be exterminated) that has been criticised.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 20:53, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 20:53, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Which other group was marked for total extermination? According to my information the "Slavs" were to be kept on as some sort of "slave race". And I do think that gas chambers are of a different quality than death marches or machetes alone as in the Armenian or Rwandan genocide. another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 21:05, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
The Romani have a long history of mistreatment in Europe and they were marked for total annihilation, AFAIK. My link above shows that. The genocides in the Ottoman Empire were more nationalistic but the Turks were trying to eliminate anyone who wasn't "Turkish". I will say that just because the Holocaust was more industrialized doesn't make it uncomparable to any other genocide.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 21:14, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 21:14, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
The words "uncomparable" and "unique" are not exactly the same, are they? another Jewish conspiracy by (((Laurogeita Hamabost))) (talk) 21:33, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
So what exactly makes the Holocaust an in ordinary genocide then?--Owlman (talk) (mail) 21:38, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 21:38, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Happened across numerous countries rather than one, happened in a modernized/advanced country rather than some backwater, incredibly industrialized and organized, happened to a group that was well integrated to society, etc? StickySock (talk) 22:58, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
I wouldn't call Turkey or the Soviets backwater or unindustrialized. I would also say that most of the Armenians, Greeks, Assyrians, and Ukrainians were integrated prior to their genocides. The scale was large but I don't think scale counts towards a "uniqueness" since you can then write off so many other genocides as "ordinary".--Owlman (talk) (mail) 23:17, 7 July 2016 (UTC) 23:17, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
Uhh, Russia was definitely backwater as was the Ottoman Empire (read "The Innocents Abroad" sometime), and the Turkish genocides were in the middle of the collapse of a country. As for Russia and Ukraine, the Holodomor wasn't industrialized and it wasn't intended to be "thorough". And again, none of these genocides were "exported"; Turkey had it in for the Greeks and Armenians, but they didn't invade the rest of Europe for the express purpose of killing every last Greek.
Oh, and the Armenians weren't truly integrated given that Christians were second class citizens in the Ottoman Empire. Conditions were so bad that during the 19th century, the Armenians viewed the Russians as liberators. CorruptUser (talk) 23:47, 7 July 2016 (UTC)
I didn't say that the Holodomor was industrialized. Stalin had a quasi-industrial society and the Ottomans had scholarly institutions. I am not trying to say that the Holocaust wasn't unique in the way it occurred but, rather, that the racism and politics surrounding it weren't unique.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 00:08, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 00:08, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  1. The holocaust is not the first genocide, nor is it the last
  2. Just because a few cities in the Ottoman empire had a hospital does not mean the rest of the place wasn't a giant dump. To quote Mark Twain "The poverty and despair was a surer sign of (Ottoman) rule than the crescent flag". No, seriously, read "The Innocents Abroad". Far better than Huck Finn. CorruptUser (talk) 02:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
  3. The "uniqueness" of the Holocaust is not the racism nor is it the politics, but the combination of scale, efficiency, organization, and again the whole "exporting" the genocide thing.
At this point, it seems like you are trying to diminish the Holocaust here. CorruptUser (talk) 02:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
I am not trying to downplay the Holocaust, I just think that it is offensive to other victims of genocide to say that the Holocaust is more "unique" than their's.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 02:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 02:21, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
In what way is it offensive, if it isn't downplaying said other person's genocide? I could say Steve Irwin died a more unique death than Roger Ebert, but that doesn't mean I'm downplaying cancer. CorruptUser (talk) 02:43, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Because when you say that the Holocaust is "unique" compared to all other genocides because of its scope you are basically saying that the Greeks, Assyrians, Armenians, Ukranians, etc are lucky that those who committed genocide against them didn't go farther in their desire to eliminate them, at least that is the way I perceive it.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 02:50, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 02:50, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
My Armenian friend growing up didn't perceive it that way (and his great grandma survived it). He wished that the Armenian genocide would get more recognition, but he believed that the holocaust was different. I also have some Greek neighbors, should I ask them too? Please stop trying to be offended on behalf of other people. CorruptUser (talk) 02:56, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Ugh, no offense but let's not do that. Your Armenian friend's views don't reflect a whole community but that is interesting to me since I have seen people call the Armenian genocide the "Armenian Holocaust". This opinion that applying a uniqueness to the Holocaust isn't just mine, though, it is something historian Peter Novick wrote about so I am not trying to "be offended for others".--Owlman (talk) (mail) 03:05, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 03:05, 8 July 2016 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────

Oh yes, I'm not denying just how terrible the Armenian Genocide was. I'm not even saying one was worse than the other. I'm just saying that the holocaust was the most unique genocide. If every European country had death camps every few decades, it wouldn't reduce the horror of the genocides, but it would certainly make it less unique.
Interestingly, we had a Kurdish friend/acquaintance that his great grandmother didn't approve of, since Kurdish tribesmen had been the ones killing her family. We think. Or involved in other ways. We really weren't ever sure, since she didn't like to talk about it (and she was 6 at the time). CorruptUser (talk) 03:25, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
I guess I am coming from a different viewpoint. I agree that the Holocaust is notably different since it not only included the extermination of the Jews and Romani but also German leftists, the Polish, Spanish Republicans, the LGBT community, dissident Jehovah Witnesses, and the disabled among others. If you don't mind me asking, CU, are you American because you seem to live with a lot of Eastern Europeans and people from the Caucasus and Anatolia?--Owlman (talk) (mail) 03:34, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 03:34, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Yep, American. My hometown had a lot of refugees and immigrants growing up, in part because the mayor wanted them in for political purposes (and in all honesty, they were 'better' than the average local; less crime, better work ethic, etc). My Armenian friend was really only a quarter Armenian but was big into his nationalism thing, and he wasn't the only Armenian in my town. Was friends with the one Kurdish girl, and my family was friends with some Iranian refugees. Also was sort of neighbors with a guy that had been a refugee from the Magreb. Knew quite a few Bosnians, but they mostly kept to themselves. Keep in mind that there are about a million Armenians in the US (including the Kardashians, blegh), so it's not uncommon to know a few. CorruptUser (talk) 03:53, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah I have met several people who have left their countries and settle here but I haven't met too many people from outside the country.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 04:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 04:14, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Red state for me. Really white area. The areas are pretty segregated around here. on the block level. PBfreespace (talk) 04:19, 8 July 2016 (UTC)
Yeah Indiana is fairly segregated which always reminds me of the Civil Rights Movement quote about how Northerners don't care if you are higher than them as long as you don't live too close to them. The schools in my district are closely connected through various programs but each school is either predominately white or black with Latinos throughout.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 04:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC) 04:42, 8 July 2016 (UTC)


Random drive-by post[edit]

I would say rational wiki is only moderately right wing on jewish ethnonationalism in israel. Stand with Palestine! — Unsigned, by: 2600:8800:5D80:F29:6179:8CF3:D7B2:2679 / talk

You haven't read our article on Israel have you? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:03, 11 March 2020 (UTC)