Template talk:Socdemnav

"the enemies of democracy"

Rather loaded language concerning socialists and anarchists. Especially given several modern variants are rather well disposed towards democracy. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 00:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I changed it from "enemies" to "adversaries". Removed "Socialists" since they are not by default opposed to socdems. @GrammarCommie — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 04:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

How is that any less loaded? — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Because enemies is far harsher than adversaries. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 10:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It's still conveying the same ideas. I`m suspect of any political edits you make as a rule, but this is just subpar partisan bullshit. — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:10, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

So you are going to edit war? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 10:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

You reverted my edit, and so I undid your reversion once. You're the one edit warring. — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:15, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

crickets — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:19, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I see while I was sleeping, Raven behaved in a calm, reasonable, and mature way and explained why those entries were on that list to begin with. I'm kidding of course, he did none of those things. I've changed the section to "Other systems". I would hope Raven would see the merit in such neutral language. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 12:27, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

This isn't wikipedia. Neutral language is not the mission here. Sarcasm? Yes. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 12:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm fine with "opponents of Social Democracy", and I withdraw my complaint. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 12:43, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I still prefer "reform over revolution" because anarchists and communists also want a better world, but I guess this will work fine as a compromise... for now. — Oxyaena ^Harass 13:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That's how commies would frame it ("Reform over revolution"). This is not a commie navsidebar, go to {{anarchism}} or and waffle about your preferences there. Also, do commies and anarchists want a better world? Unsure, considering how they hamper the only people's actually improving the world (socdems). We have data for that. For commies and anarchists, we only have devastation, failed attempts and misery. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 13:29, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

And if you editwar again @Oxyaena, I will drag you into a coop. You can scream after Spud as much as you want, but your behavior won't go unpunished. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 13:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

A single reversion doesn't count as an edit war, you dumb fuck. Good luck with that. — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ As for "misery and failure," we have to define what works in the first place, or what "works" even means.. In Iceland, you're still subject to state violence, such as being arrested for drug "crimes." In Denmark, if you're an ethnic minority, you're relegated to living in slums. Sure doesn't sound like it's "working" for me. — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Stop with the insults, Oxy. There’s a reason people are unhappy with you. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 15:47, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

There's also a reason people are unhappy with Raven, but I digress. — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm personally not an anarchist, but maybe the reason anarchist societies tend to be "failures" and war-torn is because they tend to form out of chaotic political entities and are then immediately targeted by all other sides involved (the Black Army, the CNT-FAI, the Rojava, etc.). RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @RoninMacbeth you wouldn't disagree that anarchists and communists are inherently enemies of social democracy, right? That is what under dispute here. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:10, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

No, what is under dispute here is your use of loaded language. Your initial language was that communists and anarchists are both enemies of democracy (arguably true for the former, demonstrably false for the latter). Personally, I'm not quite sure that list should even exist on the template. Plus, lumping anarchists and fascists under the same group has a few unfortunate implications, don't you think? RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:14, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Not really, since we also do this for other navboxes. See {{Alt-right}} for example. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:21, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Really? Where? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:26, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

It's all over it. There are open neo-nazis (such as Andrew Anglin), crypto-nazis like Spencer and then there are alt-like figures such as Milo Yiannopoulos. BTW, to clarify, I am fine with lumping them all together. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Chaps, I think Rairyu has solved our problems. I am willing to Accept the changes they made, though I cannot speak for all the others.-Flandres (talk) 17:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

They're the hero we need, not the hero we deserve. — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Rairyu talked to me on discord before making those changes. See, how diplomacy and dialogue are better than editwarring and personal attacks? Also: "accept", not "except". — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That's fine so long as you take your own advice.-Flandres (talk) 17:30, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Raven, you responded to "Plus, lumping anarchists and fascists under the same group has a few unfortunate implications, don't you think?" with "Not really, since we also do this for other navboxes. See {{Alt-right}} for example." How is lumping various forms of NeoNazis and White supremacists together the same as equating anarchism and fascism? Please, explain this to me. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I mean, Raven, to be fair, that's exactly what you have been doing. You've reverted the edits made to this page multiple times, and have insulted me and Flandres personally on another page. Practice what you preach, perhaps? — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:37, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Alt-lite isn't white supremacist. They are functionally supportive of the alt-right, but they themselves aren't alt-right. @GrammarCommie — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:38, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

So anarchists functionally support fascists now? What a remarkable insight, Raven! — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:40, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Sometimes, yes. See Weimar Republic. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't explain how anarchism and fascism are connected. "Alt-Lite" largely refers to people like Crowder or Sargon who avoid supporting white supremacy openly, but none the less carry water for white supremacists. Alternately, it can refer to crypto-Nazis like Lauren Southern. Please explain your reasoning. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

GR, making a really stupid tactical decision that enables your foe to claim victory is different from support. By that logic, Crassus supported the parthians.-Flandres (talk) 17:46, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Lauren Southern is alt-right, she supported the identitarians in France. Flandres, thats a stupid analogy. Firstly, Parthians is capitalized (it's a proper name). Secondly, Crassus went to fight the Parthians for Rome; Anarchists fought Social democrats on their own. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:49, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

That does not invalidate my point, because the leftists in Germany were not doing this to help Hitler, they just allowed pettiness to influence their thinking with disastrous results. They did not support fascism, nor did they even uniformly agree with the social fascism canard.-Flandres (talk) 17:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Actually, Thälmann (leader of the KPD) DID think that the nazis were useful to undermine the socdems. This is silly. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:53, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Trotsky thought the popular front was a good idea. It was not uniform among the communist left. This also does not equal support for fascist polices as good ideas like it does for the at-lite.-Flandres (talk) 17:56, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Except people like Crowder will denounce nazis (as "socialist-liberals"). Do you not see how this is silly? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

They end up supporting similar white nationalist talking points in the end. Communists in the Wiemar republic thought stupidly they could manipulate a political force they did not fully understand for self-serving realpolitik. The alt lite implicitly supports bigoted talking points that the alt right deploys because, even if they do not agree with ALL of them, they agree with a good deal of them. That is why they are lumped together. The problem is that you are trying to play a tactical blunder like it proves far-leftists can be just lumped together with nazis as being similar.-Flandres (talk) 18:04, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Flandres I mean, that might have something to do with the Wiemar Communists being Bolsheviks. Also, we seem to have gotten off track, since the Communist faction in Wiemar Germany was not the same as the anarchist faction. If I recall correctly, they hated each other, partially over the KPD supporting accelerationism and Stalinism. And even if it were true that German anarchists were in some way responsible for the rise of Nazism, it doesn't logically follow that anarchism, the ideology, would call for such an action. I'd also like to point out that while they had many problems (including commiting war crimes) the Spanish anarchists were very much opposed to Fascism. So, I must ask again. How does Raven justify grouping Anarchism and Fascism together? (I actually already thought of a way this could be justified, but I want Raven to explain himself for once.) ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 18:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Question

this page is empty why is it here? User:BrightMarsh 8:51, 19 August 2020 (EST)

Elaborate? @BrightMarsh — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 04:15, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Do we need this?

Genuine question, is there enough of a demand for a navigation template for social democracy to require this? RoninMacbeth (talk) 15:57, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I will create demand for it. We have thousands of (mostly off-mission, but I digress) anarchism articles, so why not social democracy? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 15:58, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Thousands, have you looked at the anarchism category? — Oxyaena ^Harass 16:02, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Huh, so we do have an Anarchism navtemplate. I guess socialism navtemplate is next or something? RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:05, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

{{communism}} — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Anarchism =/= communism, Raven. Communism also doesn't equal Marxism. — Oxyaena ^Harass 16:07, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Communism also doesn't equal socialism. I consider myself a socialist but steer clear of the "communist" label, because mainstream communism is too heavily influenced by MLs and their fucking vanguardism. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I would argue that we need LESS political articles altogether but I haven't been particularly successful in convincing people of this so far--Hastur! (talk) 16:09, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hastur You would agree that if we have navboxes for anarchism and communism, why not for social democracy? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:11, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Is the realm of politics devoid of authoritarianism and pseudoscience? Is hiding from a topic due to clashes really worth it? I'd argue no, and no, and that we should in fact cover politics in more depth, not less. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:32, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Depends. How many articles are we going to have about social democracy? Also, at a glance, some of the stuff on the Anarchism navbar seem like spurious inclusions at best. Like are we really saying that the Animal Liberation Front is an anarchist organization? And Vermin Supreme is more of a libertarian than anything else, as I understand it. Not 100% sure we need an anarchism sidebar--Hastur! (talk) 16:33, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

While I would not fully support burning down all political articles or something, I do have to ask why we have all these templates in the first place.-Flandres (talk) 16:36, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Why not? They are well made and have usefulness. The lack of content shouldn't be used to delete them but rather expand them. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:41, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Just so we're clear, while I would like to see LESS political articles and closer adherence to our mission, I never said we should get rid of all political articles and would oppose attempts to do so--Hastur! (talk) 16:48, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

@Hastur I want to adress your previous posts in inverse order. Firstly, I'm glad to hear that. Secondly, I'd largely agree that Vermin Supreme is probably not an anarchist, though I'd have to check more interviews with him to be sure. As I understand it, he runs on the Libertarian platform partly as a running gag. Thirdly, wait what?!? The ALF maybe borrows tactics from anarchists (their activities could be argued to be a form of direct action, though I've never heard of them promoting mutual aide or other non-state networks), but as far as I know they mostly focus (focused? is the ALF even still a thing?) on "liberating" animals, not trying to replace the concept of nation states. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:44, 20 August 2020 (UTC)