Forum:Festive logo

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Exhibit A

So whose horrible idea was that? I don't see it discussed anywhere. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 14:50, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I think it popped up this morning. Personally I quite like it. There's something sinister about disembodied brains wearing hats. --ConcernedresidentAsk me about your mother 15:03, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Is there some sort of holiday that people are celebrating? 'Cause I don't really celebrate holidays, and I find it odd that a community as diverse in its outlooks as this one would all celebrate--or acknowledge in such an obvious way--the same holiday. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Mine, but if you are going to bitch and moan about it, then it's not worth the trouble. Merry Christmas -- Nx / talk 15:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't wish me a Merry Christmas. I'm not a Christian. It's bad enough that the streets of town are littered with this kind of nonsense (at taxpayer expense, to boot...) as well as every storefront I walk past. Let's have one fucking place in the world that isn't part of the borg. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:19, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

ec Thank you, NX. Hats like that make me think of leggy Russian girls wearing nothing else, and posing provocatively. So many reasons to avoid that line of thought. Must. Focus. Work. To be Done. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 15:23, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
It was a nice thought, Nx. Happy holidays to you.--Tom Moorefiat justitia 15:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, was a nice little touch. I suppose we could also remove references to Friday. I don't worship any of the Norse gods, so I'm pretty sick of seeing Friday happening most weeks.--ConcernedresidentAsk me about your mother 15:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I never got an opportunity to see the festive logo before Theory of Practice apparently got his way by being a whiny bitch. Where is it? And TOP, really? Diverse? There's some atheists, a few Jews, a Muslim, and a bunch of Christians of all stripes. Please remind me to take a shit on your birthday, your anniversary, and any other date that's important to you. Dick. Conservapederast Jerry 15:50, 20 December 2009 (UTC) Troll TheoryOfPractice (talk) 15:58, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh my fucking goat! Can't you people debate a simple site-look issue for a few minutes without resorting to fuck-yous all round? Personally, I don't particularly like the hat, & I think it's a few days too early. If we're gonna use it at all, I reckon it should be something like 24th-26th December only. My main concern is that (as far as I can tell) there was no discussion first, before putting up something that has a fairly major impact on how the site is presented to any visitor. It seems like there's a double standard & some editors (I assumed that this was the work of Nx) seem to think they have carte blanche to make site changes without consensus. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 16:07, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
The impact is debatable, but I kind of see it as one of those little ideas that don't cause harm and can be reverted if people don't like it. Nx seems to do a lot of hacking around with the plumbing of the site. He's normally good with consulting over changes to the functionality, but for the work he does I'm pretty happy to trust him to hack around a bit at his own will, so long as it's not something that'll cause serious appearance or functionality issues. I think as well it's worth us remembering that there are nice civil ways to ask for something to be changed. It's kind of frustrating when you come up with something that seems nice, but the responses are carved on a figurative brick and hurled at you.--ConcernedresidentAsk me about your mother 16:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Ahem. (ec) I would sure like to see the hat and the snowy RationalWiki again come Christmas day. ĴάΛäšςǍ₰ secret trainer of minefields! 16:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
ToP, you seem to have potential, so I'll put this as kindly as I can. (Thanks to Weaseloid for EC'ing my earlier, less charitable effort.) You come in all "WTF fucking decorations can't stand 'em WTF who crapped all over the logo with that cheerful shit" and when Cpdrst responds in kind, you label him a troll. I'll share a lesson I learned long ago from my chief pizza driver at Little Caesar's on West Stadium: every time you point a finger, three more are pointing back at you. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
SProcket, show me where it was in this in this thread that I was abusive as our local sex criminal before he went off on me. TheoryOfPractice (talk) 00:57, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
If that was a question, it was, aah, interestingly framed. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 01:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
OK, that was a lazy response, and you deserve better. You weren't all shouting and swearing, but your words did get characterized as bitching and moaning before Jerry let off his own flashfart. Wordsmithing is work, which you seem to do your share of around here, so no blame if you thought it was easier to just troll-template, and move on. Still I think "troll" is a mis-characterization of Jerry's edit. What exactly had you been angling for with your earlier outburst? That's just a glimpse of where I'm coming from here. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 02:06, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Maybe dropping the troll-bomb on the paedo-man was uncalled for, but he really pissed me off, given that what I was "angling" for was a bit of discussion on the question of whether or not a place that is dedicated to questioning religion and other group-think should embrace a religious holiday/pagan festival/secular-commercial take on a religious-pagan holiday. I HATE Christmas/The Holidays. Ficking hate everything about them--commercialization, pressures to be sociable/with family/phony, bullshit, shallow nods to "peace" and "the spirit of the holidays." HATE it. And would be glad to discuss why I thonk it would be cool to just let them slip by unacknowledged as a way of getting at how problematic I find the whole exercise to be. Instead, that a-hole made it personal and nasty, What to do? TheoryOfPractice (talk) 03:16, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Your story has touched my heart. Each one of us comes to this RW place from a different ambience. I've had, and recovered from, a hypersensitivity to Christmas commercial BS. Hardly any involuntary exposure to it here any more. Most recent relief comes from my no longer working in a for an outfit that pipes music into its public spaces. Last year the drones in charge of changing channels left the holiday crap going til mid January, and a cabal of workers finally took matters into our own hands when no one was watching. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 03:52, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I thought it was a great idea. I laughed when I logged in this morning. Bring it back. Totnesmartin (talk) 16:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. Cripes, it's a bit of fun, not a statement of faith. Putting it up a few days early isn't cause for freakouts. --Kels (talk) 16:31, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I really liked the hat. Very festive. Very cheerful and a nice surprise. I see no reason not to have up all week.--BobNot Jim 16:34, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Children! Stop this madness! This is the season of joy and goodwill! Christian or not, let us remember the festive occassion for all its capacities for the best in all men; though let us shudder at the remembrance of a host of cringeworthy christmas films. Bring back the festive hat! Let peace and joy reign! EdmundBurke (talk) 16:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

For those who didn't see the Christmas logo, here's a copy. The final version had a nice snow effect on the lettering. Also, the favicon received a little hat. --ConcernedresidentAsk me about your mother 21:04, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

Right, let's do this the right way, then:
Looking at the voting below, I rather feel that the phrase "overwhelming support" springs to mind. --BobNot Jim 12:15, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I think we're done here, too. Nx! Put it back! --User:Theautocrat/Sig 18:10, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I think if Nx chooses to walk away from this kerfuffle, no blame should be attached. RW seems to have an interesting tension between graffiti and consensus, between pillocks and hillocks. (A hillock is an overrated molehill, and a pillock is a dick.) Anyone not yet offended, please take a number Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:41, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Put it back up now (22 "yeas")

  • Kels (talk) 16:43, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • EdmundBurke (talk) 16:52, 20 December 2009 (UTC) And good riddance to all grinches too!
  • Totnesmartin (talk) 16:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Concernedresident Give me Christmas, or give death to those who disagree. --ConcernedresidentAsk me about your mother 16:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • --BobNot Jim 16:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Conservapederast Jerry 17:17, 20 December 2009 (UTC) Why would a tolerant person object to any other's expression of faith or celebration of an important feast day?
  • SJ Debaser 17:25, 20 December 2009 (UTC) - why's everyone pissing themselves over a fucking hat?
  • Professor Moriarty 17:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Redchuck.gif Генгисpillaging
  • --User:Theautocrat/Sig 20:53, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Javasca₧ Who said anything about fair?! 21:26, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • --Proxima Centauri (talk)Let's have the hat back, it encouraged me to improve the Santa Claus article and others might improve Santa stuff further. 21:40, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Fedhaji (Talk) 22:26, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Breaking "Bah Humbug" --I am eating Toast& honeychat 01:28, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I thinks it cute. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 12:00, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I was disappointed when it disappeared. Pietrow (talk) 13:39, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • PsygremlinPraat! 17:26, 21 December 2009 (UTC) (You know - it's just a fucking Santa hat. Some people need to get off their high horses and learn to fucking relax.)
  • Jesus I love me some fucking Christmas. Great time of year. Gimme all the fol-de-rol AND the Santa hats if you don't want them. DogPMarmite Patrol 18:24, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Hellyeah! I grew up with this stuff, and religion has never played a big part of it. Fortunately, I've also managed to avoid the worst of the commercialism and eventually learned to ignore it. So bring on the happy Christmas-type logos and Santa hats an the actual fun part of this whole season, and screw da haters! --Kels (talk) 18:35, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Yes. And what the fuck is happening with this discussion even existing in the first place you humourless twats!! Scarlet A.pnggnostic 19:09, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I hate Christmas but I love the holidays so put it up. Aceof Spades 20:43, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • All of the above. - π 22:05, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Fuck Christianity, but Christmas is hardly Christian any more and the hat was cute. — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 22:08, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Put it Friday only (4 conditional "yeas")

  • Not particularly bothered if people do want to keep it up, but I'll stick by what I suggested earlier. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:50, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • I have no problem with it appearing in the holydaze/1225 template, or even, of course, in any specific locations (Santa Claus, user pages, etc.). But replacing the main logo with it, while "fun", is also ridiculous. Can't one tiny corner of my life not be intruded upon by Xmas imagery all over the place? ħumanUser talk:Human 22:36, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Agreed. If it was just in the Saloon Bar, I'd have no problem. All over the site is a bit much. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 23:15, 20 December 2009 (UTC)

I thought it was cute, but let's just do it for Christmas if possible. Actually, it's too bad we don't have multiple holiday ones with the fancy new logo. Halloween, Rosh Hashanah, Eid al-Adha, and so on. I'm an atheist, but these are important cultural events and holidays, and are very meaningful to some people with some interesting stories.--Tom Moorefiat justitia 00:59, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

There's got to be at least one occasion when we can have a knife stuck into bleeding brains... or something like that. Look, I think it would be funny and cool if our logo was customized for various times, but a fucking Santa hat a week before Xmas just gets on my tits. We mock this supernatural crap, not endorse and institutionalize it! ħumanUser talk:Human 01:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
There's Santa woo now, with people actually promoting his literal existence? And here I thought it was a fun seasonal thing aimed at kids and people who remember being kids. Better get right on the Santa debunking articles, then. --Kels (talk) 20:17, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
Holy crap no! I never realised it! I suppose for National Homeopathy Week we can dilute the logo or make it appear only 1 in a 10^60 times. The whole season is harmless, fun and festive. If we put a picture of "Baby Jesus" there, your argument may have merit. As it is, it's a santa hat, it's a fun and fairly inoffensive (or maybe not) symbol in the spirit of being happy, joyous, nice and good to everyone regardless - and while I'd like to say that should be all the time, restricting it to being explicit at one time of year makes it a bit more special and intensifies the feeling. Dear fuck, it's not like Santa is specifically religious in nature or the entire season is explicitly and uniquely Chistian. Or would you like it replaced with Mr Gruff from Objective4Kidz? Scarlet A.pnggnostic 21:02, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
I could go with Mr Gruff. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 22:11, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Don't put it up at all (1 "nay")

TheoryOfPractice (talk) 00:55, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

I'm so sick of these militant atheists and their war on Christmas. You truly deserve that black lump of coal in your chest you call a heart. Merry Christmas and fuck you. — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 17:17, 22 December 2009 (UTC)


С Рождеством Христовым!
There's no reason we can't do both. Here, have one on me. --Kels (talk) 20:27, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks ever so, but get thee to a life class and study your anatomy better. Those were mostly abs and pecs showing, not legs. I want legs! Legs up to here! Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 21:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I was mostly working with "Russian model", honestly. --Kels (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
Next time you're working with a Russian model, try telling them... naah, I just thought better of it. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 23:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
And now I've thought worse of it. tell them "Не постовчй хуй в чай!" and see if they can keep their pose without collapsing. The spasms will most likely be laughter, but scope out a few exits ahead of time, just in case. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 15:17, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Some of us never saw it so don't know what we're voting on. But if it's a Xmas decoration, let's just stick to the holydaze 1225 template? ħumanUser talk:Human 20:48, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
I had a look for the file earlier & couldn't find it. It seems to be well hidden (or deleted?) & not in obvious places like the RW logos category. If somebody knows where the image is, please post a thumbnail at the top of this thread so we can at least see what we're talking about. WëäŝëïöïďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:56, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Can someone do the same for the funspace logo, the one for RWW and/or RWWW? [[User:K61824|]][[User_talk:K61824|]] 22:14, 20 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Sterile brick wall 01:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC) Sorta indifferent, although I will say I rolled my eyes when I say it. Must we vote on everything? Sterile brick wall 01:21, 21 December 2009 (UTC)
comment This has prompted another discussion: Forum:Must we vote on everything? Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 15:25, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
  • Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX The Scrooges and the "Christmas-decorations-everywhere" crowd should get away from each other's throats. 02:13, 21 December 2009 (UTC)

Moar power to the mob

As of right now the logo used on the site is this file: File:Rw_logo.png. Anyone can easily change it to whatever they want, and you get the added benefit of being able to hurl insults at editors and accuse them of destroying the wiki while reverting their changes. -- Nx / talk 20:09, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Heh heh. Touché. --ConcernedresidentAsk me about your mother 20:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
Where is the Santa hat brain uploaded then? - π 04:52, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Nowhere. -- Nx / talk 08:55, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
Well that is sub-satisfactory. - π 08:57, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
RatibunkWuju! ĴαʊΆʃÇä₰ I like shaky cows 16:34, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I like "bossy little prick" Nx more than "pussy little bitch" Nx. — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 16:39, 23 December 2009 (UTC)

So? When is the nice Santa Hat going back?

Given that it's been overwhelmingly voted back? DogPMarmite Patrol 01:11, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Yep. I'm wondering where the hat logo is. I've travelled home for the "holiday season" (as the cool kids call it) so don't have the fancy graphicsy stuff to make my own one up to replace it. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 23:04, 22 December 2009 (UTC)
What? Did I miss somehting? Is sommat broken, and so in need of fixing? Is it nap time yet? Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 15:09, 23 December 2009 (UTC)
I can't even/ever find the image on the wiki. What's up with that? ħumanUser talk:Human 02:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Maybe Nx changed the image via the server? Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 03:00, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Probably. So wrong in every way. ħumanUser talk:Human 03:18, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
That wrongness has been corrected -- Nx / talk 13:46, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

It's a damn shame that it got pressured off, seeing as the modern Santa can be seen as a symbol working against this being a religious holiday. As the song says, "[Santa] has as much to do with Jesus as he does with Scooby Doo". A Santa hat is emblematic of the growing secularization of Christmas, and it's been that way for a long time. It's a total mistake to think of it as an irrational promotion of a religious holy day. --Kels (talk) 15:48, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Wtf.gif is the thing up there now? it's a blob! I am eating Toast& honeychat 16:26, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Good heavens, that's frightening! Although I gotta say, I do like the enthusiasm. --Kels (talk) 16:30, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
How do you change the logo out for the santa hat one? — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 16:32, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
After getting jumped on for putting it up, I doubt Nx is planning to put it up. So you'll have to make your own if you want one up there, and risk similar responses. --Kels (talk) 16:37, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, don't I look the right fool? --Kels (talk) 16:39, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Mwa.       ha.             haha--         the blob stays, until somebody changes it. If I stare at it long enough, little things emerge. How do you change the logo out? How do you change the logo out? Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 16:43, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Me personally? I don't. I suck at stuff like that, and don't wanna break the wiki. --Kels (talk) 16:52, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
I googled it. We (you) need access to localsettings.php. Or a crat can stuff it into Common.css. — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 16:56, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
No need for any of that fancy crat pants stuff. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:02, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Excellent. Thanks. — Sincerely, Neveruse / Talk / Block 17:04, 24 December 2009 (UTC)
Yey! The hat's back. If you don't see it press CTRL F5.--BobBring back the hat! 17:13, 24 December 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that, Nx! I love the hat. Actually, I think we could be perverse and simply leave it there all year 'round. DogPMarmite Patrol 01:27, 25 December 2009 (UTC)

I used to have colored light around the "street side" window on an old apartment. I would turn them off for December. ħumanUser talk:Human 03:14, 25 December 2009 (UTC)
That's a bit too much "Mr Christmas" (the man who celebrates Christmas everyday! Or as Russel Howard put it "when did she leave you?"). I'd like to see us make fancy ones on occasion, Google style, but that'd be a hell of a lot of effort. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 00:24, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Also, a woman once asked me "why are you playing Christmas music?" in my car (yeah, good times). It was just a classical station. Fucking retards ħumanUser talk:Human 04:56, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, some of the chorales from Bach's Johannes Passion do sound like glorified Christmas Carols so I imagine it's an easy mistake to make. But yeah, retards indeed. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 22:31, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Now make it go bye bye.

Christmas is almost over, if that thing is there tomorrow I will plant a bomb under the wiki and light the fuse ;) ħumanUser talk:Human 05:00, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Still Christmas here. --User:Theautocrat/Sig 05:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I said "almost". ħumanUser talk:Human 05:06, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Human. While I can see that you and three other people voted to have the hat up only on Christmas Day only, I note that the vast majority of the site voted for longer. My assumption would be for the Christmas period until the first of January.--BobBring back the hat! 08:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
It seems like there's a double standard & some editors seem to think they have carte blanche to make site changes not only without consensus, but against consensus. -- Nx / talk 09:53, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I'd love to see the Santa hat there for a week, please, and yes, Nx. DogPMarmite Patrol 10:06, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I think twelve days of Christmas is too many, and would like to see the hat disappear soon after Boxing day ends in Hawaii. Is this a good place to mention that I find the occasional decorations on Google's logo to be distracting and annoying? When I reach for a tool, I don't expect it to leap up and declare how decorative it is feeling just then. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:02, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
For the record, I'd be happy to see it up until mid-week sometime, but if it's gone on the 27th (after Boxing Day) then I wouldn't raise a fuss. --Kels (talk) 17:33, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Is it gonna be wearin' a kilt for Hogmanay? I am eating Toast& honeychat 17:46, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Any reason for a brain to be wearing a kilt is a good reason. --Kels (talk) 17:47, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Och, aye, an wi a tip of a blue ribbon peekin oot. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 17:52, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Her optical nerves they shone like the diamonds
You'd think she was Queen of the CNS
And her axons hung over her shoulder
Tied up with a black velvet band.
--Kels (talk) 18:01, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
One humbly exists to serve the will of the greater mob. Will this do? Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:21, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Looks rather like one of the Dr Who monsters - the ones with the tentacles dangling from the lower part of the face: I'm not a whofan I am eating Toast& honeychat 18:42, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Isn't that a sporran not a kilt?--BobBring back the hat! 18:45, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I started trying to SVG a tartan: got fed up after about 4 colours so I suspect that Sprocket's sporran is possibly the best we'll get. (could also use for Burns' night?) I am eating Toast& honeychat 18:49, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Aah... I shamelessly clipped that from wikimedia commons. Feel free to apply colour as needed, and fair fa' yer honest sonsie face! Mr. Bob, one word for you: synecdoche Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 18:53, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Wikipedia is a wonderful place. How else would I have found a link to the fact that kilt wearers need a sporran license?--BobBring back the hat! 21:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)--BobBring back the hat! 21:03, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
I'd like to this sort of thing up long enough for people to appreciate it, so Christmas Day only would seem like a waste. But like Kels, I wouldn't complain if it reverted after the 27th. Hogmanay sounds good for another one. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 22:28, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Speakin' o' things Scottish, we've got the 2009 piping festival frae Glasgow on t'telly: Beautiful. I am eating Toast& honeychat 22:53, 26 December 2009 (UTC)
Argh, APHC is repeating last week's Xmas themed show. I thought that music was supposed to stop after 12/25?! ħumanUser talk:Human 23:30, 26 December 2009 (UTC)

Or should we keep it forever? If so, it really needs to be redone with better shading on the hat. ħumanUser talk:Human 07:26, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

OK. Keep the sucker forever if that flips your trigger. A request though: can there be a colour proctor who sees to it that it doesn't become red again until two solstices from now? I'll support a chromatic round in any direction, but come early next year, red with a white fringe and toorie will be right out. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 07:32, 27 December 2009 (UTC)