Talk:2016 Orlando nightclub shooting

Somebody helpme clear this up. Bazer63 (talk)

Done. Did some basic fixes to clean up everything. Could still use more content, maybe a photo. TeslaK20 (talk) 16:37, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

So we aren't gonna mention the ISIS ties?

C'mon. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 18:47, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

I mean he only pledged allegiance with a phone call so that is probably why no one has mentioned it yet.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 18:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC) 18:53, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

He pledged allegiance in the 911 call, and ISIS groups are taking credit on twitter, but there is yet no indication that he was directed by or in communication with an ISIS group prior to the attack. That may change as information develops, but right now, all one can really say is that he was inspired by ISIS. Petey Plane (talk) 19:12, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Would be deluded if we did not. There are no "true" Muslims. Basically everyone who claims to be a Muslim is one. There is no excommunication like in the Catholic church.^{— Unsigned, by: 193.62.251.21 / talk / contribs}

And that is different from Christianity... how? If one declares themselves Christian (basically affirming that the Bible's account of Jesus' divinity is true), then they are Christian. The Catholic church doesn't hold sway over all of Christianity, and being excommunicated would be meaningless to a Protestant. Similarrly, you're belief that ISIS represents all of Islam is incorrect. Petey Plane (talk) 20:01, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

There is a disturbing amount of people who want to emphasize his Islamic beliefs while glossing over his homophobia. Typhoon (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Right, but the question at hand was about ISIS connections, and not his Islamic beliefs. You are correct though, that shooter's homophobia did appear to be his primary motivator. Here's something about your point, Typhoon, http://www.politico.com/story/2016/06/orlando-shooting-gay-rights-224235 Petey Plane (talk) 19:57, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

it is my understanding that the only link is his own declaration of allegiance. No formal links, unless they have since discovered something more concrete. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:20, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Lone wolf?--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 02:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC) 02:52, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I don't know how much we want to include but his father was a critic Ashraf Ghani and the ISI and also homophobe and Taliban sympathizer. The shooter had a violent and hateful past and was mentally unstable but he befriend a drag queen when he was younger.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 07:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC) 07:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

He also went to Pulse regularly and used gay dating apps. Another closeted homophobe? Bicycle^wheel 09:46, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Wait, his homophobia was separate from his Salafi tendencies? You're hilarious Typhoon. Allah destroyed the people of Lut for a specific reason. Lord Aeonian (talk) 22:27, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

The fact that there is a death penalty in some Islamic countries for gays matters. Also ridiculous to blame Republicans, since being against gay marriage is not the same as mass murder of LGBTs. It's absurd how "rational" people fail to understand that some people take their religious beliefs seriously.^{— Unsigned, by: 193.62.251.21 / talk / contribs}

Mass shooting definition

So, do we declare this deadliest shooting in us history or not? What IS a mass shooting? When will we return to the important issues, like goat abuse?

Mass shooting is a few people; not government organized war crimes or huge mobs

1. Aye. Kind of, don't feel too strongly, just want to avoid drama StickySock (talk) 20:33, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
2. Race riots, pogroms, government-sponsored massacres, war crimes, etc are not comparable to this.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 20:40, 13 June 2016 (UTC) 20:40, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
3. Mass shootings, in the case of what is being referenced for this page, are criminal acts carried out by one person, or a small group of people. "The attack is the deadliest mass shooting by a single gunman in United States history." is accurate and succinct. Petey Plane (talk) 20:54, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
4. Common understanding of mass shooting.--JorisEnter (talk) 20:56, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
5. The idea behind "mass shooting" is that individual(s) tried to kill a bunch of people. αδελφός ΓυζζγςατΡοτατο (talk/stalk) 21:16, 13 June 2016 (UTC)
6. That's the common definition, isn't it?--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 02:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC) 02:53, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Article

We have an article on School shootings, we need one on Mass shootings generally. Proxima Centauri (talk) 13:55, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Either write one or suggest one here.--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 14:08, 15 June 2016 (UTC) 14:08, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

I started the article. It badly needs imput from Americans. Proxima Centauri (talk) 13:35, 16 June 2016 (UTC)

Haha

You should the Arabic tweets on this. Stuff like "Allah is giving the gays what they deserve, subhanallah" and "The Western countries have nothing better to do than let boys marry boys, this is what they get"

And these people are the ones who turn around and say "ISIS isn't following Islam correctly! They're giving Islam a bad name!" hehehe Lord Aeonian (talk) 20:52, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

http://www.rightwingwatch.org/content/anti-lgbt-pastor-steven-anderson-applauds-orlando-massacre-theres-fifty-less-pedophiles-worl Petey Plane (talk) 20:56, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

[1]--JorisEnter (talk) 20:57, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Haha, nice to see the Christ-worshipers getting in on too. They're all the same. Lord Aeonian (talk) 21:03, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

What was that again, with Matthew 5:3-10?--JorisEnter (talk) 21:05, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Well guess which country that executes gays has condemned this mass murder.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 21:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC) 21:13, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Don't forget the Most Noble Qur'an @JorisEnter Lord Aeonian (talk) 21:19, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Fundamentalists aren't exactly known for their abilities to read their particular holy book in its entirety.--JorisEnter (talk) 21:26, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

They take a literal interpretation, which means the contradictions would get in the way. Lord Aeonian (talk) 22:43, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Some hard evidence for the regressive left (which doesn't exist of course): Exhibit A Exhibit B but maybe I'm just Islamophobic :) Lord Aeonian (talk) 10:50, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Good job, you found some dumb tweets. I can also dig up a bunch of Americans on Twitter laughing about the 2011 Japanese tsunami, saying that it's revenge for Pearl Harbor etc. But guess what, that doesn't prove anything about Americans, just as your cherry-picked tweets don't prove anything about Arabs. You're so desperate to fight imaginary "regressive leftists" that you're now arguing on the level of a Donald Trump supporter. Typhoon (talk) 12:02, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh and yes, you are indeed Islamophobic. It's not uncommon for people who leave religion to turn towards ultra-agressive atheism/anti-theism. Typhoon (talk) 12:04, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

How is that evidence of the regressive left? Oh wait, it isn't. it's evidence of fundamentalist shit-heads. No seriously, that has nothing to do with "regressive leftist". I'm honestly confused about how you are making that connection. Petey Plane (talk) 12:22, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I never said it was evidence of the regressive left, I said for it - i.e., for those regressives who insist Muslims are ultra progressive. Lord Aeonian (talk) 13:06, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Who's insisting that Muslims are any more progressive than anyone else?204.11.142.106 (talk) 13:16, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Just the straw-man Aeonian is invoking. Petey Plane (talk) 13:17, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Oh my GOD! Why do we have to be spending all of our time arguing over Regressive! Islamaphobe! Apologist! STOP THE INFIGHTING MADNESS! We're turning into the Communist/Socialist parties of the twentieth century, meaning we're splitting up into factions over the slightest ideological difference. How about this? Typhoon and Petey Plane, do you oppose Islam as an ideology? Aeonian, do you consider yourself a liberal/left-winger? The answers I think you're going to give should help deal with this silly dispute. PBfreespace (talk) 22:02, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Funny that you bring those up, as I myself am a classical Marxist and am thoroughly opposed to Marxist-Leninists. The only real difference here is that certain people have a deeply vested interest in enabling the regressive narrative. I say "enabling" because I have never seen these individuals actually defend Islam - thus, they are not regressives themselves. They just have a stunch determination to argue that no liberal ever defends Islam, which is blatantly false. Why, you ask? Perhaps they are regressives, and just don't come out and show it; or perhaps they really believe that "regressive left" is a right wing snarl word and thus want to play tribalism and defend "their side" whenever the topic comes up. Who knows. Lord Aeonian (talk) 22:32, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Aeonian, would you mind classifying me in a quiz-like fashion in order to place me on your spectrum? I'd like to know where you put me, as I do not consider myself to be a member of either tribe in this case. Can you prove me wrong? PBfreespace (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

I put you as "right" for literally the sole reason that you tend to oppose editors like Typhoon on issues like this. As I said before, it's just a very rough sketch of how I've seen editors work together and fight, don't take it too seriously. Lord Aeonian (talk) 23:43, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

My only point is that LA's two links had nothing to do with her/his "Regressive Left" narrative, and everything to do with religious fundamentalism. The straw-man i was pointing out is those who think Islam is "ultra-progressive". Without nutpicking, who actually thinks that? I certainly don't. Yes, i agree that Islam does inpinspire some to do evil, but so do fundamentalist interpretations of any religious system (all of which i find equally absurd). I would consider myself a progressive and a capital D Democrat, for those who care. Petey Plane (talk) 12:46, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Blood Drive

I don't want to be that guy but red blood cell donations expire after 42 days. The problem with all these people donating blood after a tragedy is that a study found that "as many as 300,000 pints went to waste after the 9/11 donation surge"; these people tend to only donate after a tragedy instead of donating year-round. I think a section mentioning this kind of slaktivism might be necessary since everyone has been talking about all the people who have donated blood.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 21:40, 13 June 2016 (UTC) 21:40, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories

There are some conspiracy theories floating around claiming, that either Hillary, the LGBT or someone else staged the whole thing to either take away their guns, to get Hillary elected or to get the LGBT sympathy. Disgusting, huh?--Kugelschreiber (talk) (mail) (block) 02:56, 14 June 2016 (UTC) 02:56, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Alex Jones was there in hours. Shocker! PBfreespace (talk) 03:07, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Why is there no mention of the conspiracy theories of this event in the article? Shouldn't it be added? --107.72.164.57 (talk) 16:15, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Crackpot Hypothesis

So the shooter had gay dating apps on his phone and had been to the gay bar frequently for years. Had a wife but couldn't stand her. His father had made some comment about two men kissing and the shooter was upset.

Obvious narrative?

You had a man in the closet, but couldn't come to terms with it. He took a wife or two to try to pretend to be "normal" but was upset at the whole situation. He couldn't come out to his family, and they had instilled upon him the idea that homosexuality was a sin. He hated himself for what he was, and couldn't come to terms with it. So he found a way out. Maybe he murdered dozens because of jealousy, because he's taking them with him, or because he truly believed homosexuality was a sin and this was hide way of purifying "himself" and the world.

The story wouldn't have unfolded any significantly different had he been brought up by fundamentalist Christians than by Muslims. The real enemy here was a family that couldn't accept a son that came out, for whatever the reason.

</wildmassguess >

StickySock (talk) 22:45, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

“”The story wouldn't have unfolded any significantly different had he been brought up by fundamentalist Christians than by Muslims.

This is very true, I wish Westerners could see that Islam is every bit as bad as Christianity - and worse in certain places, like Bangladesh. Lord Aeonian (talk) 23:46, 14 June 2016 (UTC)

Should be easy then to name massacres of gays by Christians in States.^{— Unsigned, by: 193.62.251.21 / talk / contribs}

There's Uganda, for one. As far as outright shooting massacres in recent history, few spring to mind, but there's all the Christian groups (as noted on the article) applauding the deaths, as well as those who were threatening to shoot trans people using bathrooms immediately beforehand.KrytenKoro (talk) 20:08, 15 June 2016 (UTC)

Good point, should be added somewhere in the wiki. Still do not accept though that mass killings of gays are part of US rather than Afghan culture. The idea that someone coming from Afghanistan would magically shed all old beliefs and become all-American is absurd. I am an immigrant myself -- takes roughly 3 generations imho.