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Talk:9/11

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This article is, among others, randomly included on the Main Page.
Please keep this in mind and be sure that your edits are of the quality that this implies.
Its front-page abstract can be found here and its editnotice here.

One-sided reporting[edit]

As a fervent reader of Rationalwiki, I was completely astonished by this one-sided and unobjective description of the 9/11-events. Let me include this short note, at least in the Talk-Page, for anyone passing by and wondering how an internet wiki, claiming to be rational, completely misses its own standards, and blindly adopts the official version of the events. Of all positions one can have about 9/11, the article seems to portray only two extremes. The first extreme being a high praise of the official NIST-report (what this article is in fact) and the second extreme being some crazy zionist-space-beam-bush-did-it nonsense. Can't there be a third, moderate, critical and healthy in-between position? This should be possible. The article starting with Al-Qaeda made entirely responsible for the attacks, is a conspiracy theory itself, as there are no-proofs that it was Al-Qaeda at all. So, speaking about the responsibility of the attacks, it's possible to say that the US-Government accuses Ben Laden, and that, however, proofs are still awaited. Indeed, the factual situation is pointing it couldn't have been him, or at least, him alone. The role of the US Government is at least debatable. A lot of the so-called truther claims are being discussed and countered with rebuttals full of logical fallacies, and only weak claims are being discussed, not the strong ones. One day, in 20 years, in 50 years or even in 100 years, we will know the truth. Internet archaeologists will dig this article out and wonder why this was one the Rationalwiki. 79.210.51.201 (talk) 11:11, 20 September 2017 (UTC) Anir

First, "But I thought this was supposed to be RATIONALWiki!" Drink!
Second, cite your sources. RoninMacbeth (talk) 13:59, 20 September 2017 (UTC)
First, that drinking game of yours may explain why this article seems to be written by not-really-sober users. I think I supported my claim with enough explanations. This article needs to be rewritten.
Second, cite your sources. Which source does say that the 19 Hijackers are responsible for the attacks? Cite your sources. The 9/11 commission report? Come on! We should write it directly in the article: The US-Government accuses some people with no further proof. There isn't even a single footage of any of the Hijackers boarding any of the planes.
Third. One thing that blew my mind. Read the following sentence from the 2nd paragraph of the introduction.
"While the international community condemned the attacks, some Islamic fundamentalists in the Middle East viewed them as part of a legitimate jihad"
Well, while I don't have any problems with the sentence itself, I can't understand at all the source used ==> Some Palestinians celebrated the attack in refugee camps in Lebanon. Images of celebration from the BBC. Sorry what? I suggest we use the following source, it's much better. Anir (talk) 20:55, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
First, your joke was amusing. But explanations are not the same as citations. If I were to write a paper on the Thirty Years' War and turn it into my professor, and it contained explanations for why it happened the way it did but no citations, I would not be surprised if I got an F on the paper. Someone can explain anything with anything else. But unless those explanations have some demonstrated basis in reality, such as citations, then the explanations are moot.
Second, we do cite our sources. The 9-11 Commission report is reliable. And since you ask for citations, here they are:
Joint Inquiry Into Intelligence Community Activities Before And After The Terrorist Attacks Of September 11, 2001 Volume I and Volume II, and the testimony of FBI Assistant Director Dale L. Watson before the Senate Intelligence Committee. They're both through the Wayback Machine, sorry.
And third, I am not entirely sure what your complaint is. If you feel that source is better, then change it. Many other RWians might be loath to use a Breitbart article, but meh. RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:32, 21 September 2017 (UTC)
I told myself since this article is full of jokes, why not adding my own jokes to it. Breitbart was meant to be joke as well.
Let's focus entirely on that claim of yours: The 9-11 Commission report is reliable.
I heard some truthers saying that there isn't even one mention of the collapse of WTC7. That's why they completely dismiss it. I wouldn't go as far as dismissing it. Let's agree that the 9-11 Commission forgot to mention it. On the other side, this article completely presents the 9-11 Commission report as absolutely unquestionable. It's the truth and anyone saying something else may also like Alex-Jones-Videos. Some strong straw man there.
I will add one little part to the article, if you don't like it we can discuss it of course.
Anir (talk) 10:49, 22 September 2017 (UTC)

Rename to 9-11[edit]

If the name is 9/11 it fucks up the archive template. Archives exist (see Talk:9/11/Archive1) but the template thinsk this is an archive page bacause it's a subpag The FCP Foundation (talk/stalk) 06:26, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Sounds like a good idea. CowHouse (talk) 15:15, 30 December 2017 (UTC)
I also agree with this. Move it to 9-11 and leave 9/11 as a redirect. БaбyЛuigiOнФire(T|C) 22:37, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

We've been DEBUNKED[edit]

How can we not realize that Israel did 9/11? Mʀ. Wʜɪsᴋᴇʀs, Esϙᴜɪʀᴇ (talk/stalk) 06:27, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Sure... Everyone knows the devil did it, obviously. Comrade GC (talk) 15:20, 30 December 2017 (UTC)

Concerns with this page[edit]

Hello everyone, I just joined as I was quite disappointed by the flaccid arguments made on this page. (No, I'm not a 'truther' - before we go any further ;) ) But I think this is a very important and emotive topic which behoves respectable websites like Rational Wiki to have some quality content in here.

For a start, the jokey sneers are appalling. How on earth would you expect anyone to take this page seriously when it's full of snide remarks? Do you seek to aspire to the truth, or do you just want to insult truthers? (Which helps precisely no-one) This is anything but rational behaviour and does not fit well with the ethos of the site in my opinion.

I joined because I am considering contributing to this page to try and help clean it up and restore some rational balance to it. But since I'm new here, I am wondering if any such edits or trying to restore some rationale to the page will be welcomed, or will I be wasting my time?

For reference to my own personal position on 911, you can consult my blog article if you wish. Freeworlder (talk) 20:25, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

I suggest you read RationalWiki:What is a RationalWiki article? and some of the pages in Help:Contents before making changes. This will help you understand the ethos of the site, which isn't exactly described by the word "respectable".
Regardless of the above, if there are specific issues you feel the article doesn't cover well, things it could explain more clearly, arguments it ignores, etc, please post on this talk page. --Gospatric (talk) 11:58, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
The thing with us is we have the tone of snarky everywhere, see the RW:SPOV section specifically. Zero (talk - contributions) 17:27, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
OK thanks for the information guys. That article was news to me and I understand better what you're trying to do now, but it's probably not for me. Having said that, I do wish there was a more NPOV resource for this and other thorny topics. I would love to see a more Snopes-like bullshit de-bunk site - as in terse, unequivocal and well-respected. It's sorely needed! I wish you luck with this but the humour / attitude thing won't really work for me. Freeworlder (talk) 20:36, 17 January 2018 (UTC)
Try these pants on.Wikipedia's W.svg Zero (talk - contributions) 20:40, 17 January 2018 (UTC)

Reichstagsbrand as an example[edit]

I've removed said example. It is NOT historical consensus that the "communist dissident" (which he indeed was) did in fact set the fire. Marinus van der Lubbe was acquitted in 1980 by the Landgericht Berlin, in December 2007 the Bundesanwaltschaft reaffirmed again that the judgement was based on national socialist injustice (I just noticed that I mixed up the two dates in the edit log, my bad.) -6E23 (talk) 11:15, 1 June 2018 (UTC)

This page[edit]

Should this not be an 'active' rather than an 'archived' talk page (or is it some glitch in the archiving process - or 'something else entirely?). Anna Livia (talk) 18:22, 17 September 2018 (UTC)

My gut feeling tells me the 9/11 title is screwing up the formatting for pibot. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:16, 18 September 2018 (UTC)
If something goes wrong on a website assume 'two bits of computer program negatively interacting' (the inherent animosity of inanimate objects as applied to computers) and/or someone mistyping and similar, and as more likely than malicious activity (human 'the aliens' or the computer-sentients (who are more likely to be looking at images of other 'decorative computers' anyway)). Anna Livia (talk) 09:09, 18 September 2018 (UTC)