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haha human machine go brrr[edit]

yall took down my "haha human machine go brrr" meme, i see how it is SShinx (talk) 14:45, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

When uploading images that are likely to be copyrighted, you need to 1) State in the upload where it came from (attribution) 2) Choose the licensing that is applicable 3) If using fair use licensing, confirm that the image is of relatively low resolution.
Book cover images, by the way, are usually considered fair use because they are used to promote the sale of the book (this is Amazon's excuse, for example). Bongolian (talk) 16:50, 17 August 2021 (UTC)

The good insights issue[edit]

I think that what you wrote overall is good, @SShinx. The problems that I have on the page are with what appears to be your overall conclusion in this sentence:

โ€œโ€Even if it is seen as slightly outdated, the text is still a good framework for revolutionary change and puts forth many good insights into psychoanalysis and authoritarian culture.

First since you yourself wrote that the book is "nearly incomprehensible", I don't see how "good insights" are going to be forthcoming. Its near-incomprehensibility would seem to lead into multiple- and mis-interpretations. Second, it's not clear what you (or the authors) are referring to with revolution: is it in psychology, sex, politics or something else? Why would a nearly incomprehensible text be useful for anyone except academics? Third, how can the book provide insights into psychoanalysis when it is basically pseudopsychology of a different type than Freud's? Bongolian (talk) 04:06, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Excuse my formatting, still getting use to the site. First and foremost, yes, it is nearly incomprehensible, especially on a first read. Though, it is not incomprehensible like time cube is, but more like how The Critique of Pure Reason by Immanuel Kant is incomprehensible on first read. D&G make their texts difficult via there language and sentence construction not because of any wiggle room in their arguments. In certain parts, you are right, I am for sure projecting assumptions in which I have not provided evidence for. The revolutionary character of D&G's writing is very interesting. Fundamentally, it is not restricted to just politics or psychology. The idea of freeing desire from dogmatic frameworks/ideology is one of the main goals of Anti-Oedipus (which admittedly I have not gone into depth about). I will make it a goal to expand upon it. I think the only thing I will claim as completely disagreeable is your claim about psychoanalysis and the insights they make. There's an entire section about their analysis of Freudian psychology (the way it constructs desire, how it falls in line with modernist thinking, and their main claim that it is just flat-out too restrictive for how chaotic humans are). You may consider it pseudo-psychology (even though I disagree), you have to admit that it is less dogmatic and assumption heavy than psychoanalysis which is definetly a improvement SShinx (talk) 13:42, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
I also think it's noteworthy that after 5 decades, schizoanalysis is barely mentioned in the medical literature (only 8 papers)[1], whereas psychoanalysis has 13,000 papers.[2] Mental health professionals do not seem to have taken the idea of schizoanalysis seriously. Bongolian (talk) 18:49, 20 August 2021 (UTC)
I also think it's noteworthy that I didn't mention schizoanalysis at all in my response to you ๐Ÿ’€ the article alludes to it but the insights given to psychoanalysis very much live independently to schizoanalysis (though they are used to support it). I plan to create another article on schizoanalysis and how it plays into modern psychology, but this article was supposed to highlight the arguments in the book. So yeah, I don't understand your critique and it seems to ignore everything I said in my response. SShinx (talk) 05:45, 21 August 2021 (UTC)
The reason that I brought up schizoanalysis is that I presumed you were alluding to it when you wrote, "โ€ฆputs forth many good insights into psychoanalysisโ€ฆ". Unless you can explain how the book's description of psychology (or schizoanalysis specifically) is evidence-based, then it is indeed pseudopsychology. That is just like medicine that is not evidence-based is pseudo-medicine (a.k.a., alternative medicine). Unless you can cite evidence for that particular statement, it amounts to your opinion, and it will get removed sooner or later. Bongolian (talk) 19:08, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
@SShinx I'm going to try to interpret your arguments charitably i.e. I'll put myself in your shoes, and I'll try to render your arguments faithfully and plausibly. I hope that a charitable interpretation (which I shall indicate via italics) will allow me to gain a clearer picture of your argumentโ€”one that yields fruit, as opposed to dry leaves.
SShinx writes: "D&G make their texts difficult via there language and sentence construction not because of any wiggle room in their arguments."
My charitable interpretation: D&G's texts are difficult because their grammar is different from the grammars that output the well-formed sentences of most languages.
My comments on my interpretation: If D&G can't provide a grammar for their language, one which would produce well-formed sentences as its output, then valid reasoning cannot occur. LeucippusSalva veritate 22:37, 22 August 2021 (UTC)
Nonconventional grammar does not equal invalid sentences. The grammar is hard because it is unusual, but it is very much consistent. Also, their critique of psychoanalysis is logic based most of the time and therefore needs no "evidence", the evidence is the contradictions they reveal within psychoanalysis. Even though D&G believe their critiques to supplement schizoanalysis, the arguments exist independently of the practice. It's like saying Lacan didn't have any good insights into psychoanalysis because his psychology was pseudoscience, he still provided changes to psychoanalysis which made it less worse. Marx didn't need evidence for Capital since it was a work of theoretical framework. SShinx (talk) 15:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Yes, they can be correct in their criticism of Freudian psychoanalysis, but that does not necessarily mean that their schizoanalysis is valid. I think you should be clearer about that on the main page. Bongolian (talk) 17:35, 23 August 2021 (UTC)
Cool, that's what I always intended. That's why I put "insights" and not "prescriptive psychology". Insights (being a set of observations from a state of understanding), is plently clear and I don't intend to change it. SShinx (talk) 13:15, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

โ”Œโ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”€โ”˜It would be helpful if you could give at least one example of such an insight. Bongolian (talk) 17:50, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

1. Desire as production, not lack.(big one) 2. As shown by the schizophrenic, desire doesn't have to conform to the oedipal triangle and even by itself, the triangle is obviously restrictive. (To be fair, not all of those going forward are present in the article since I'm a full-time student and it is hard to find time) 3. Psychoanalysis has been used as a tool to curb revolutionary practice via its tendency to relate any hatred of authority to the Oedipal complex and not resisting that hate is failing your maturation. 4. Historically, Oedipus doesn't make sense "it is doubtful incest was a real issue in previous societies" or something along those lines. SShinx (talk) 18:10, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

Sokal and his relationship to Deleuze[edit]

@Leucippus Yes, Sokal wrote a chapter about Deleuze and Guattari and the he had made some good insights in the book, but not in that chapter. He misunderstands Deleuze's use of antiquated mathematics as an example of image-of-thought (the territories of thinking, usually examined historically). There are no substantive criticism of Deleuze that is made SShinx (talk) 14:31, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

I find it implausible that something so intentionally opaque as postmodernist writing can be misinterpreted. The other problems with this book, as I've indicated on the main page, are 1) that there's almost no interest in it or consequence from it among psychologists after the passage of decades, and 2) that it challenges something (Freudianism) that is unscientific[3] with something else that is unscientific, with a distorted view of schizophrenia. In short, DG may hae shown that Freud was wrong, but that is far from showing that DG is right. Bongolian (talk) 17:17, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
1. Even though postmodernist writing is opaque, that doesn't mean that there is no normative consensus. The idea of image-of-thought is incredibly clear (one of Deleuze's most clear ideas). 2. Yes, the book didn't really do too much in psychoanalytic circles, and? 3. I don't understand what your point is. Yes, Schizoanalysis is technically a pseudoscience in some respects. You guys (you and the other guy who kept reverting my edits) are legitimately being cringe right now because you're acting as if this is a debate over the book's integrity. I don't care about Deleuze and Guattari's ideas, they may reflect reality, they may not. I wrote this page because it's a bit of a really interesting and weird theory on psychology and authoritarianism.SShinx (talk) 18:14, 20 September 2021 (UTC)
Has anyone here actually read Sokal's book? Anti-Oedipus is never mentioned in "Fashionable Nonsense". On the subject of schizoanalysis, I don't think Sokal presents a good critique either, because he simply takes a quote out of Chaosmosis out of context. All they're able to say about it is "Besides, the article of Guattari (1988) on tensor calculus applied to psychology is a real gem." (Chapter 9). This isn't really a critique. What is Guattari doing with tensor calculus and psychology? It sounds like they weren't able to tell. That's fine - but hardly a critique. Sokal has no background in psychology and Guattari worked in a mental hospital most of his adult life so it might be that Sokal is the one not able to speak here. It doesn't help either that they don't even reference what article that Sokal is talking about, so we can't independently cross-verify.
All of Sokal's critiques in this chapter take the texts strongly out of context and reference random chapters to point out potential inaccuracies. Consider how, if taken out of context, many complex scientific or philosophical works also become unreadable. Honestly, this chapter does very little to actually critique Deleuze/Guattari, and I would recommend removing the reference. There are definitely critiques out there of AO. Deleuze is critiqued in a good amount of detail on Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy. -- (talk) 10:36, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
@SShinx, the person who created the article, appears to have read it. Better critique would be appreciated. Bongolian (talk) 15:49, 1 October 2022 (UTC)

What exactly is the problem with the edits?[edit]

@Bongolian Out of curiosity, why were those edits reverted? They were good, and did away with some of the rank amateur "edits" that were previously in the article. Vee (talk) 21:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

On second thought, the "introduction" is less of an introduction and more of an insult. Some of the new material should be ideally kept, while others should be removed or rewritten. Vee (talk) 21:59, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
@Vee The problems with the edit are: 1) Removed italics (all books have italic titles) 2) removed one citation, included no new citations 3) claims that it "remains useful and praiseworthy" (without evidence) despite not disputing that it is unfalsifiable social science. Bongolian (talk) 18:03, 17 January 2023 (UTC) I put my comment in the wrong section. Bongolian (talk) 02:48, 18 January 2023 (UTC)
It seems to me that if commenting on this text requires familiarity with "numerous other philosophical and literary figures," including all of those listed, we likely shouldn't have an article on it, since it is unlikely that there will ever be an appreciable number of editors here who are so familiar, and it will consequently be effectively impossible to evaluate the veracity of the article's claims. This is especially concerning given that the article appears to have been written largely by a single editor, and contains many sections without sources. ๐’ฎ๐‘’๐“‡๐‘’๐“ƒ๐‘’ talk 23:56, 16 January 2023 (UTC)
I know of Youtubers who have made introductory videos to the philosophy of Anti-Oedipus, so it's not impossible. Also see this: "On second thought, the "introduction" is less of an introduction and more of an insult. Some of the new material should be ideally kept, while others should be removed or rewritten." Vee (talk) 00:02, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
The introduction does have a condescending tone. But it's true that Deleuze and Guattari worked in a tradition with quite a lot of hermeneutics, and drew on the work of figures like Lacan, so I would be surprised if it were possible to get very far into the details without at least some familiarity with some fairly obscure thinkers. If you can attest to the reliability of the Youtubers you're referring to, and if they provide sufficient detail to allow evaluation of the article's claims, great. Now, more to the point of the thread, some problems with the new edits are, (i) the tone is condescending and polemical, (ii) they engage in editorializing, (iii) they make reference to ideas that are obscure and unexplained (notably, the distinction between Royal and Minor Science), which makes the article less accessible. I'll also suggest that to refute the claim that the work is anti-science by framing the work as a critique of (power in) a capitalist society in which science's position is unchallenged, is not compelling. It suggests that the position of science should be challenged, which is compatible with being anti-science. Something more specific needs to be said, probably enough so that the issue should not be discussed in the introduction. ๐’ฎ๐‘’๐“‡๐‘’๐“ƒ๐‘’ talk 00:48, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
I won't pretend to have read Anti-Oedipus or even most of the required reading: "Immanuel Kant, Karl Marx, Friedrich Nietzsche, Baruch Spinoza, Sigmund Freud, and Jacques Lacan, amongst numerous other philosophical and literary figures, such as George Bataille." That doesn't trouble me though. I am glad to see editors challenge themselves as well as our readers. However, consider the short section
" Impact and Criticism of Anti-Oedipus:"
"When Anti-Oedipus was first published, it was a wildly controversial and scandalous book. It received tons of press coverage and sold out in 3 days. [9]"
So far, I am not impressed that the book accomplished anything or is worth pursuing. If you must work on this article I would start by offering an explanation of why anyone should read it.Ariel31459 (talk) 01:09, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
I tried to read A Thousand Plateaus four oe five years ago. I'll never make this mistake again. The fact that Deleuze doesn't use paragraphs makes it even more incomprehensible for me. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 20:42, 17 January 2023 (UTC)
I think that a good compromise would be to remove the article and link to the Wikipedia article, this article has a lot of questionable and unsourced material. Just because you don't personally understand the content doesn't really excuse the quality of the article.--Pfelix (talk) 14:52, 19 December 2023 (UTC)


Can an explanation be provided for those of us who find the subject opaque? I get that one has to have familiarity with Kant et al but the rest seems 'slightly opaque' (and possibly generated with this program. Anna Livia (talk) 00:36, 17 January 2023 (UTC)

Unsourced/Opinionated Aspects of the Article ("Schizophrenia")[edit]

Reviewing the "Schizophrenia" section I think some of the content is highly opinionated and seems largely unsourced (outside of some quotations from AO), this article comes off as two opposing writers who have very different opinions of the book clashing in different sections. I think overall we should aim for representing what public literature, either online or published, on the subject, since that is a more honest representation of the subject than the article authors' opinion.

There is some criticism from disability studies that may be worth bringing up on the subject of Schizophrenia and Deleuze/Guattari - I'm thinking of a specific paper from the 5th edition of the Disability Studies Reader, edited by Lennard Davis. The article title eludes me but it's about the "postmodernists" and how they appropriated schizophrenia as a subject throughout their work. I have some issues personally with this source but it's worth at least bringing up that this perspective exists and can be researched. If this is going to be brought up though it's also important to bring up how their work influenced disability studies as well.

Another problem that I've heard through the grapevine but haven't been able to source is the issue that Fรฉlix would work directly with schizophrenia and other conditions on a daily basis, while Gilles would work with students and teaching his radical ideas - this lead to students appropriating schizophrenia. This would explain why a lot of secondary sources have a much poorer understanding of schizophrenia than DG has. There is a problem among some non-academic secondary literature that romanticizes schizophrenia as a possible "escape" from capital as well, which is a problem that the book's reception has been dealing with since it was first published (Guattari mentions this extensively in interviews).

A good source I think also to better understand AO and Schizophrenia would be the Anti-Oedipus Papers, which are the notes that Guattari sent to Deleuze when writing the book. Also, for the history of the radical psychiatry movement that inspired Guattari's work, "Institutional Psychotherapy", check out Camille Robcis's Disalienation, it goes over the history of La Borde and other institutions as well as a lot about the history of anti-psychiatry.

Even though D&G want to represent an abstract interpretation of schizophrenia (and strictly as a process), they are still often lambasted for their poor understanding of schizophrenia as an illness, not to mention their dehumanization of people who happen to have the condition in Anti-Oedipus.

Who is saying this? This section is unsourced. Schizophrenia is a complex illness that at the time was understood through multiple disciplines. I don't think Guattari's understanding of schizophrenia was poor for the time. I mean, we are talking about 1972, who exactly had a good understanding of schizophrenia back then in comparison to now. It's true they're describing a process but it's a process that was initially observed in schizophrenic patients.

Deleuze and Guattari define the schizophrenic as a non-identity, a subhuman, an unsociable intensity that doesn't operate by any kind of internal or consistent logic. They also assert that schizophrenics are beyond ideology (at least, social ideology), and exist "before the man-nature dichotomy". The idea of a split or a constantly splitting identity is something observed within schizophrenics, but the definition has changed over time with our understanding of the illness and the book somewhat generalized all schizophrenia into a few traits.

This comes directly after saying that what Deleuze and Guattari are talking about is not necessarily clinical schizophrenia! Anti-Oedipus isn't a diagnostic book, if anything it's intended to be the opposite! Also, where do they call schizophrenics "subhuman"? What? Deleuze had issues with schizophrenics in person but Guattari in a lot of interviews/papers describes the schizophrenic condition as a kind of tragedy. Schizophrenia is "Beyond ideology" because they are deterritorialized, there is no place that the ideology can "go". That doesn't mean that there can't be clinical schizophrenics with an ideology and it doesn't mean that schizophrenics are not human.

Even though their conception of schizophrenia and ontology of machines seem to line up, D&G still want to reinforce the idea that they are not promoting nor delegitimizing the harms that schizophrenia causes. Schizophrenic delirium is debilitating and leaves the subject completely unsocialized.

They AGREE with this assessment of schizophrenic people! I think a good way to explain what D&G saw in schizophrenic people, especially G, was that because they were so "deterritorialized", they could be reshaped into anything. When Guattari worked with patients at La Borde he saw that they developed new potentials never before seen because of exposure to different ways of life. That didn't necessarily mean these people were "cured" but they found new ways of life that could suit them. There was a lot of political potential in a process that can break down structures and reform them again. That's what they were interested in.

There have been some parallels drawn between the Nietzschean "รœbermensch" and the Guattarodeleuzian conception of schizophrenia. For context, second to Spinoza Deleuze's most misread historical philosopher would probably have been Nietzsche. The รœbermensch's overcoming of humanity through the rejection of nihilism has some resemblance to the ideas of the boundary-crossing, territory-destroying schizophrenic who exists outside of the dogma of society. Having any form of mental illness being represented in a similar way to that of how Nietzsche represents the "superman" is going to cause some problems.

CITATION NEEDED. What? Who is going around saying that schizophrenia is the same thing as the รœbermensch?

Deleuze and Guattari have a way of coming up with concepts that is sometimes regarded as distinct from all other philosophers. They don't care about pre-existing semantic boundaries and normalities when creating concepts. That's why, without even batting an eye, they assume license to use the word schizophrenia in such a peculiar (and perhaps offensive) way. D&G believe that ideas can be drawn from anywhere and that it's possible to take the positive parts of something useful and leave the rest, no matter what it is (in this case, schizophrenia). They see the wild creativity and boundary-crossing of schizophrenia as incredibly useful and even see schizophrenic desire as intrinsic to the human unconscious. Though, in taking the good, they also have to leave the bad. They leave the perceived uncontrollable and unsociable nature of the schizophrenic to the wayside and see nothing wrong with that. After all, with a "machinic" world view, it's very easy to take some machines and leave others behind. You're not taking the whole schizophrenic, just considering the schizophrenic-desire-model-machine and leaving the rest.

This whole section comes off as author opinion and is also completely unsourced.

I'll be making some subtle edits but I'm not sure how to preserve the content of this section, I think most of it will require an entire rewrite.

--Pfelix (talk) 13:34, 19 December 2023 (UTC)

If you look at the history of the page,[4] you'll see that User:SShinx put in almost all of the initial work. SShinx seemed to be more-or-less credulous about the book. Later editors, myself included, have been more skeptical, but SShinx may have been the only editor to have read the book. By all means, take out anything that cannot be sourced and fix anything that seems credulous. Bongolian (talk) 18:17, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the history. Can I recommend the page for deletion? After thinking about it, I think it would be better to just link to the original Wikipedia article, because this article doesn't explain much at all and has a LOT of misinformation. Reactions should probably go on a blog or newsletter or something. My editing work is probably better used on the postmodernism pages directly anyways because that has a lot more direct interaction with skeptics. --Pfelix (talk) 22:49, 19 December 2023 (UTC)
You're certainly welcome to put it up for a vote for deletion. You can find the instructions for the deletion procedure here: RationalWiki:Articles for deletion. I'm not sure that the Wikipedia article is sufficiently critical of the book, and not having read it, it's difficult for me to make an assessment. Bongolian (talk) 05:03, 20 December 2023 (UTC)
Thanks for the advice on deletion, I'll submit it after writing this. FYI, for future reference, I think if you're interested in criticism of the book, which would be very helpful to have as a resource online, you should rely on academic, traceable sources instead of personal opinion of the wiki authors, this way we know it's more than just the opinion of the wiki authors - this may be part of the reason why the Wikipedia article is not as critical as you'd like. I'm also personally interested in understanding the interaction between postmodernism and science and its rocky history, especially before the 1990s when everything exploded - so not having any sources doesn't just look bad but can interfere with research. Chomsky, the Sokal Affair and its effects seems to dominate in citations here, all leading back to the same place, and to be blunt - the affair kinda sucks as a critique (my opinion, admittedly). There has definitely been more discussion on the subject than that though. I'll try to fetch that article from the Disability Studies journal but I think the majority of this section needs to be pitched. Part of the problem with the critique in this article/talk page is that it doesn't seem like it understands the material in many cases such as with this part of the article from people who don't seem to have the appropriate background to make that call (how much do the authors of the wiki seriously know about schizophrenia? Do any of them work in a mental hospital or intensive outpatient?). SShinx is not the best representative of the article either because I've seen numerous historical mistakes scattered through it that might be attributed to them. There are definitely critiques of Anti-Oedipus/DG out there (check out Fascism of the Potato if you don't believe me! And of course Zizek's Organs without Bodies). The critique is also really disorganized. So yeah, at the very least I think it would benefit from just pitching the current article and posting a basic bullet list or something to work with based on the critiques that people have gathered, since having a list of critical reviews is important. --Pfelix (talk) 11:49, 20 December 2023 (UTC)