Talk:Fakelore

Co-opted fakelore

If fakelore is co-opted by 'the general public' does it not become a form of folkore? Examples would include 'The Angel of Mons' (based on a short story) and the Dad's Army theme tune (which some people claimed to have actually sung during WWII). And where do 'traditional tales reworked by a named author' (Tales of Ossian, Arthur) which are then accepted as tradition fit in? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 18:15, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

That is an interesting question, and one that doesn't have an easy answer. It does relate somewhat to the Disney factor; when everybody knows Snow White from the Disney film, it displaces older material. Fan art is also folklore of a sort: folk reworkings of characters from known works and publishers. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 19:43, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Interesting indeed. How does one differentiate one untrue thing from another untrue thing? The opposite of "Fakelore" is obviously not "Truelore" - so does it really matter if one weird belief is older than another?--Weirdstuff (talk) 23:14, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

I think classic fakelore is when someone positions their own recently made up legend in a way that sounds like it might be an older, existing legend that has been around for years. It can also encompass a wide variety of bullshit; e.g. "This property was once an Indian burial ground", etc. - Leuders (talk) 00:15, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

That's pretty close to the heart of it. Fakelore is something made up today that's presented as an immemorial legend or genuine folk custom. If everybody who participates knows it was deliberately invented, it doesn't really count (e.g. Kwanzaa). There may be some point where the distinction blurs; when most people alive can't remember a time when there wasn't a Mother's Day, it might as well be as ancient as Christmas. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 02:33, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

There's also a fair amount of fakelore within mall ninja culture [1] I reckon. Leuders (talk) 16:55, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

OK. But I'm getting the suggestion that "real old" folklore is somehow better than new fakelore. It's not. --Weirdstuff (talk) 18:59, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

It may not be; but this until relatively recently was the typical posture of folklorists. Ultimately, all folklore had to originate with somebody. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 18:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

There will also be a time component - there will always be a first time a folklore story/urban legend is told/ritual is held (even if in many different locations) stone age people decide to set fire to the heap of leaves they have gathered together, have a roast and homebrew and then decide it was such fun they will do it again (fakelore); this becomes, sooner than many would expect 'the autumn festivity' (folklore); and 'many people' are likely to be unaware of the origins of '(the dreaded) lurgy' (which is somewhat less than 'flulike') or (computer) spam. And if someone comes up with 'a nice turn of phrase' for a folklore tale/urban legend or resets it in a particular locality and this version is then adopted generally, does it become fakelore? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 19:17, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

It really does seem to be a "so what?" difference to me.--Weirdstuff (talk) 21:34, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

The distinction does seem increasingly elusive when most folklore is no longer disseminated by an oral tradition; that oral tradition was the seal of authenticity for earlier folklorists, and it has been outpaced by other media. The parts about folklorism may be more interesting; that article about the exploitation and bowdlerization of folktales for multicultural correctness in textbook stories suggests a lot of material to add. - Smerdis of Tlön, for the defense. 05:49, 25 November 2014 (UTC)

(reset) 'Folklore is the fakelore that survives until people cannot remember who originated it.' (Santa as 'jolly chap in red' may be in transition from advertising fakelore to actual folklore)

The same could probably be said of many 'folk festivities'.

Fakelore exists; 'folklore, urban legends, internet memes and related material floating free of any actual context' (and which may exist to entertain, warn or otherwise carry a secondary message); the point of interest is in how they interact or morph from one to the other. 82.44.143.26 (talk) 17:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Before audio recording became cheap and easy, collectors of oral music tradition have been known to bowdlerize their transcriptions for publication, recasting traditional melodies into "proper" tonalities. Oral tradition mutates— what else is new?

Composers often allude to folk melodies in their arrangements. See Ralph Vaughan Williams. Occasionally a recently written song is held to be ancient, not by the intent of its creator. English tenor Dave Webber was chastised by some residents of the Cornish town of Padstow for singing "their May song" which they sincerely believed harked back to time immemorial. He had written that song a few years before. Urban legend had it that "Darcy Farrow", written by Steve Gillette and Tom Campbell, was passed off as having been collected in or near Nevada for a university musicology fieldwork assignment. I have heard that legend repeated with a straight face as recently as October 2014. Sprocket J Cogswell (talk) 20:35, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Many songs in old books are marked as being 'using the tune of (another song)' - and eg Tannebaum/the Red Flag and 'The Lord of the Dance.'

The relationship between fakelore and folklore will always be fluid - why should 'a named storyteller with a good turn of phrase' make the one and 'the anonymous retelling' make the other? How often does 'a local amusement' have to persist for it to become folkloric? Are Trekkers indulging in folklore or fakelore activities (and was Homer denounced 2500+ years ago as a fakelorist)?

There #must# have been first seasonal festivities - and within a few years there were probably people denouncing 'these modern fripperies', claiming that their version is 'the original and more enjoyable' and 'these (local versions of some imported dish) are delicious - shall we have the usual drinking songs or the better remixes?' 82.44.143.26 (talk) 17:45, 2 December 2014 (UTC)

Alternative medicine

Given its fondness for argument to tradition, alt med is loaded with this sort of thing. Ancient traditions invented decades ago - David Gerard (talk) 14:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

(At least sensible Wiccans are happy to tell you Gardner synthesized it, then recount his sources - David Gerard (talk) 14:46, 21 November 2014 (UTC))

Name?

"Fakelore" is a good word for it, but is this a generally accepted term for this sort of thing or a neologism? - David Gerard (talk) 14:44, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

I was surprised to see Wp has an article on it with plenty of citations attesting to use of the term. Leuders (talk) 16:48, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Does it? I can't find it. Maybe I'm being Friday pm dumb. Link please. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 16:52, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Err... I was, indeed, being Friday pm dumb. Soz! Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 16:53, 21 November 2014 (UTC)

Are Geoffrey De Monmouth's Arthurian "legends" fakelore

After all, he disneyfied existing folklore, adding in loads of stuff while pretending it was the real deal. Doxys Midnight Runner (talk) 19:05, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

All folklore did have some humble roots

And someday, the stuff people invent in our times will enter folklore, too, or already did.--Arisboch (talk) 12:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Traditional folklore was all about oral transmission, and oral transmission was the guarantee of authenticity. The problem was that the sort of material folklore has always dealt with had other means of transmission ever since the Sumerians. Folklorists were somewhat slow to catch up, but after folklore started spreading by fax and email it couldn't be ignored any more. - Smerdis of Tlön, ^{If you burn with an inner fire, you are already damned.} 16:05, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

As if oral tradition were the only true folklore.--Arisboch (talk) 21:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

"The gods of Greece and Rome were not chaste or non-violent"

One of my daughter's favourite books is Atticus the Storyteller: 100 Stories from Greece by Lucy Coats, which is a retelling of a pile of ancient Greek myths. It's actually really good and entirely child-friendly and I highly recommend it (the kid noticed that Deucalion is the same story as Noah), but if you know the tales you'll realise just how hard Coats works around the central theme of Greek mythology being Zeus going "I'MMA STICK MY DICK IN IT" - David Gerard (talk) 11:12, 5 December 2015 (UTC)

Storkdidit

Is 'the stork brought the baby'/'the doctor brought the baby in his/her bag' a form of fakelore? Was this sort of statement ever actually made to 'young children not knowing any better' - and what happened when they realised it #was not the truth#? Anna Livia (talk) 09:00, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

See Santa Claus. Leuders (talk) 13:29, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

There could be an 'only in front of the children-lore' category (ie not merely 'simplified explanations').

Should there be a link to urban legends as the topics overlap? Anna Livia (talk) 14:38, 1 September 2017 (UTC)

Lemmings fakelore

Would the Disney film 'White Wilderness' fall into the fakelore category as giving rise to a metaphor etc? 82.44.143.26 (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2020 (UTC)

Fake or folklore

Where does [2] fit in? Anna Livia (talk) 17:05, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Seems 'legit': 'The exact meaning of the Burryman parade has been lost through the years, although it is believed to have been first recorded in the 17th Century.' But it would not surprise me if it were given a fanciful explanation as a 'pagan survival'. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 13:01, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

So 'several bored locals decided, after several pints of scrumpy at the village fair, to "sponsor" someone at a farthing a burr/explained to the village constable that, no they were not out poaching and other dubious activities, but were involved in "an ancient ritual... mumble, mumble, Green Man, can we buy you a pint of bitter?" (having attempted to hide in a tangle of burr plants). Various activities probably made sense to the originators but the reasons became forgotten, the explanation given to 'the gullible antiquarian writers collecting old tales, the person looking for a site to build the "big house" and the tax-man' ('no, we are not retrieving smuggled goods from the village pond, we are attempting to catch the moon' - speculative house builder goes elsewhere etc). Anna Livia (talk) 16:52, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

As A. P. Herbert said, "there is no precedent for anything until it has been done for the first time." The reasons for starting the custom may differ from the reasons for continuing it, and it may just be that it's just a tourist attraction or the local claim to fame, without which the residents would just be ordinary villagers. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 15:25, 17 August 2021 (UTC)