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Talk:James Damore

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Should change this article's title to James Damore[edit]

It's virtually impossible to separate the man and his memo at this point. For that matter, the memo itself is a brief footnote in the long history of Damore's goofy actions since then. James Earl Cash (talk) 17:15, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

It is not impossible. Damore is not a public figure. He is known to have been diagnosed with autism. I would stick to the essay and leave the man out as much as possible.Ariel31459 (talk) 22:51, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

He certainly made quite an impression with the memo and is now suing Google, not to mention his growing popularity with the alt-right. He might not be well known in the larger media, but he's definitely relevant enough per the alt-right, feminism, and things like that. I don't think his autism excuses any of his actions either. James Earl Cash (talk) 04:23, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
His autism isn't relevant. I don't think we should mention his autism since that's personal information with a heavy load, and it'll be wise to tread very cautiously mentioning it. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
You must be joking. Damore has spoken at length about the difficulties he has had because of his autism. Insensitivity to other people's gender or racial concerns is relevant because thoughtless editing has made it relevant. What we really should do is talk only about the article and the incoherent media response to it, and leave Damore out of it. He is not a public person. Ariel31459 (talk) 23:10, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
He's notorious enough now. It's like giving Milo a pass. That man's not exactly popular either, but he's well known enough to make an article and criticize him for every dirty thing he's done, not even getting into Gamergate.
re: autism, I don't think that matters. He's doubled down on his statements well past any gender or race confusion and made this memo the reason he's famous, going on the likes of Fox News and PragerU, making Twitter statements parroting MRA bullshit talking about how women have more sexual capital than men. He lied about having a PhD on his LinkedIn page and only removed it when the whole scandal erupted. I think we can all agree there's something off about Stefan Molyneux as well, but that doesn't excuse anything he's said or done. It'd be tempting to call hardcore conservative women like Tomi Lahren self-loathing given the things they've done and what they've said, especially when Tomi was fired for daring to speak up for herself and got harassed by a ton of Trump trolls for whatever dumb reason and still defends every batshit point of the modern right, but again, not an excuse. It's disingenuous to present a "balanced, unobjective" view of this memo too. You are essentially saying that people should presume he's not intentionally doing harm. James Earl Cash (talk) 05:54, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
"autism, I don't think that matters." That is just adorable.Ariel31459 (talk) 14:10, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't matter; I agree. Being autistic doesn't excuse being a bigot. Being autistic doesn't mean you get to avoid accountability for your statements. It doesn't mean you're incapable of making decisions, and by treating autistic people otherwise you are infantilizing them. And a huge number of autistic activists who have never written the sort of bigoted garbage Damore wrote would be very upset at you suggesting a link. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 03:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Yup, that's the gist of it. It's also incredibly offensive to autistic people if Ariel has his way. Many autistic people would completely disagree with Damore, and Damore's characterization of autistic people is an insulting caricature in and of itself. James Earl Cash (talk) 02:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
You are essentially proposing that someone like Milo deserves a pass if his stories where he takes pride in being raped by priests were true and now advocates the same abuse that was done to him. No, his autism doesn't matter and certainly doesn't excuse anything he's done or said. James Earl Cash (talk) 17:31, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
What you are proposing is essentially incoherent. Milo Yiannopoulos has nothing to do with this discussion. Are you triggered by anything that you find disagreeable?. Do you imagine you are authorized to issue faux-pas passes? That's so sweet.Ariel31459 (talk) 02:43, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
It's called an analogy. Obviously there can be something used to "explain" away why he does and says what he does, it's no excuse. Milo Yiannopoulous might have been preyed upon by pedophile priests and become so massively screwed up that he would become the kind of person he is today. It's still no excuse for the things he's done, both in the capacity of how evil they are as well that it would be damning to those who have suffered sexual abuse and didn't end up like him. Same with Damore and his autism. There is no excuse for him slandering people and using his condition as something to hide behind. James Earl Cash (talk) 02:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
It is also called (by me) incoherent. You explain in terms of "excuses." Nobody requires or needs your acceptance. I have no idea if Damore has slandered anyone, much less libeled them. Why should anyone assume such a thing? Ariel31459 (talk) 02:33, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Ahem. You might want to acquaint yourself with the subject of this article in question then, if you're still confused about such issues. And I'm obviously not using slander in the legal sense. I'm using it in the general sense, and in this specific case, as a metaphor.
The point is, his autism is absolutely 100% irrelevant. It has nothing to do with his wrongful actions or his extremely sketchy conclusions in his shoddy mrmo. The only place his autism has in this topic is as an excuse to try and defend him on some bad argument of special pleading which is extraordinarily offensive on it's own as it smears autistic people by extension, but when it comes to this particular discussion at hand? That's a whole other can of worms. James Earl Cash (talk) 04:22, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

There is no point in dealing with people who have little or no knowledge about autism, or for that matter, common English.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

One of my partners has been professionally diagnosed with autism. You don't know anything about it. It's not something that makes you unable to decide between right and wrong, and saying it is is an insult to people who have it. Cat A. Lonia (talk) 08:19, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
"Some of my best friends..." eh? Sure pal, sure.. this was never a question about "right and wrong" but a matter of scientific opinion, and is better left to editors who can tell the difference. Ariel31459 (talk) 14:32, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

He's a white supremacist !!![edit]

From the section The Media: "Slate even asserted that Damore aligns with "white supremacists",ref, since while the memo did not explicitly endorse racism, it has pushed against minority outreach groups and labeled them as race discrimination. The unsavory conclusion is that when the memo was saying "stop restricting programs and classes to certain genders or races", it meant those programs and classes."

What the heck do that sentences mean?

I changed it with:

"Slate even asserted that Damore aligns with "white supremacists", although the memo did no comparison whatever about races, neither claimed whites are superior. In fact, the memo pushes against race discrimination, asking to "stop restricting programs and classes to certain genders or races". --McLaghing (talk) 15:48, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

This is white-washing. The last sentence is precisely why it's racism, but the way it's written is misleading to the reader and is a complaint, a well-known MRA tactic, filed under the perceived reverse discrimination and reverse racism. Earlier in the memo, he goes as far to say that women's programs to get more women in tech industry is like getting more women into homeless, death, prison, school drop-out. That's his entire reasoning, and it's horrendous and was a red flag. According to the slate Damore took a stance that aligns plainly with MRA.

The Google guy also complains about “exclusory programs” that allow women and people of underrepresented racial groups to share skills and experiences. These constitute "discriminatory practices," he writes, and leave "swaths of men without support." Women-only networking groups have been some of the most visible targets of lawsuits from MRAs, who claim that such organizations are engaging in "reverse sexism."

And here's Slate's reasoning on race:

MRAs are undesirable company, for sure, but the Google guy’s memo aligns him with an even more despicable crowd: white supremacists. In the Google document, the author tosses in criticisms of programs that support people of "a certain race" and dismissals of calls for racial diversity. If programs designed to support women are bogus because women are naturally inclined to shun stressful jobs and analytical work, what's wrong with programs designed to support people of color? The author doesn’t attempt to explain whatever evolutionary arguments undergird his opposition to racial diversity efforts, probably because there is a much smaller (though quite enthusiastic) audience for that kind of bunk. Blanket claims about why women aren't born to lead are bound to go further, especially in an industry that rewards single-minded, self-promoting men.

I still think it's heavily implied sexism and racism given the extremely poor argument, vague examples, and a gross misunderstanding of evolutionary psychology that's used to exaggerate the differences and then jump the gun to conclude that women can't lead positions and completely dismiss societal expectations just because of assertions like "it's prevalent throughout all cultures" and "it is highly heritable" (which the latter can also be explained by family conditioning). Whatever his problem with minority outreach programs is, he offers no good reason aside from accusing them as "discriminatory" which is what racists, who refrain from being outright racist and generally resort to a perceived self-victimization, do. There is also the whole KKK and his sympathetic "Imperial Dragon is cool" thing. The Slate article's reasoning aligns well with how I view the article. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 18:47, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario "The last sentence is precisely why it's racism" <- Saying "stop restricting programs and classes to certain genders or races" is racism? Silly me that I thought that restricting something only to a specific race was racism!
I read though the rest of what you have written and there is not even a single logical argument/an evidence supporting that the claim of the memo aligns with white supremacists. After all, how can a document that makes no comparison among races, especially whites, be white suprematist. The only one making poor arguments it's you. --McLaghing (talk) 21:17, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
No, there is nothing racist about making specific classes for both women and underprivileged races who have historically been shit on and gotten the short end of the stick in order to help them get ahead where otherwise they would have nothing, even those with the resumes and qualifications to get the jobs they want. As opposed to white people, specifically white dudes, who have had it easy and don't get nearly as much shit. Observe why black people are finally glad that a superhero movie specifically them, Black Panther, is finally out and reaching mainstream success. And even that's a long way to go to address the instituional problems in this country. Minorities in Alabama were a good chunk of the vote that ousted Roy Moore, while most white people in the state thought he was just dandy, pedo piece of shit and all. Or even just look at any time when people receiving online help from a tech company have given completely different reactions to men and women. Men were treated with respect while women were looked down upon. Sometimes the women would sometimes play along as a man and be given no shit at all. Reverse the situation again with men playing as women and...well you get the picture.
Also as a little FYI? You are getting far more worked up at people over this memo than you should be. We've had our history, so at least I know why I lashed out at you earlier. But Mario's been extremely accomodating to you every step of the way. James Earl Cash (talk) 22:56, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
@James Earl Cash it's incredible how much you can write without addressing the question. To make things simpler to both you and @LeftyGreenMario:
(a) A white supremacist is somebody who believe white people are superior, in many ways, to all other people.
(b) To claim that somebody is (/is aligned with) a white supremacist, one needs evidences supporting that fact. There evidences can be: he claiming to be a white supremacist (that's the easier case), he making comparisons between races and concluding that whites are superior to all other races, he acting like whites are superior to all other races.
(c) Damore never claimed to be a white supremacist, never made comparisons between races concluding whites are superior, and he never acted like whites are superior. Surely, he did not do that in his memo.
(d) Conclusion: Claming that Damore is aligned to white supremacists is - to use your terminology - bullshit.

-McLaghing (talk) 23:28, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

You don't need to ping people everytime you respond to them. I'm always on edge now, thinking I'm gonna be de-sysoped anyday now whenever I saw a red mark next to my username. Adding to that, you can't ping people in the history section. Was browsing through and saw you meant to do that with me? Nope, the only reason I responded is because I have an interest in this topic. Anyway...
He's going out of his way to undermine other races' chances at having an equal opportunity in the biased playing field we have by cutting away one of their main sources of support. Yes, that is racist. I don't know if he's an actual white supremacist but he is more aligned with them than he should be, certainly so cuddly with them that yes, we should tar and feather him in the actual article every step of the way. To say nothing of that uh, he defends the KKK and is suing Google over a meme that makes fun of Trumpers. Even when the official stats say that yes, whites are overrepresented at Google and women and minorites have it rough, but he still wants to knock them down a peg over some banal nitpicky version of "racism" that only serves to keep whites in power. Let me say that again if I didn't make it clear enough already: HE IS DEFENDING THE FUCKING KKK!
And if you have a serious interest in this topic, I mean actually be willing to change your views instead of sneer at us like we're a bunch of irrationalists or whatever other cliche you're gunning to use, I'd look at the activities of Neo-Nazis and similar parties these days. Especially since the Charlottesville attack. They outright admit they've ditched the asshole rhetoric about superiority and act in a rational civilized manner in order to gain supporters, especially amongst the young and ignorant, and otherwise fool people who would ordinarily be cracking down on them hard. They'll talk about how every race deserves it's own ethno-state of whatever, separate but equal and all that bullshit. All the while spitting on interracial marriage and spare nary a thought at denying them a foot in the door even in the current order, because according to them, America is white and deserves to stay that way. James Earl Cash (talk) 23:45, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
@McLaghing: Maybe James Earl Cash is on to something and perhaps his rudeness to you is deserved. I've said it before: stop clipping stuff I say and then making a strawman after it. I and James Earl Cash agree: those outgroups exist not to shit and exclude white males. Neither were they created to make people think white males are the problem and should be opposed at every degree (which is what Damore thinks when he says the groups discriminate against white males and offers no positives or any sort of reasons they should be opposed outside of the perceived "special treatment"). They were meant to offer support for minorities and women (who were treated like minorities) who, throughout generations have experienced much more blatant and systematic forms of discrimination and today, we're still living in the consequences of it, given old habits and attitudes die hard. These groups are just the same as gay outreach groups or asexual discussion circles like AVEN (and by the way, while their focus is those targeted groups, most of them do encourage participation by everyone, AVEN being one example) who do offer support, resources, guidance, counseling, that sort of thing. To people like Damore, instead of seeing "oh, maybe we should fill the gap for whites or men and create a similar open group focused on them", he sees those groups instead as a threat and then labels them as unfair discrimination. How is this not a good argument? Why aren't you looking past what word-for-word what the document says. The document doesn't explicitly say it hates minorities, but what it does do is attack minority outreach groups, baselessly accusing them of discrimination only because their purpose is to support minorities, which he isn't. What, is he scared of being a minority himself? An "intellectual minority"? An oppressed conservative who can't even voice what the specific fuck are his "unpopular" "conservative" views that are soooo offensive, people will get fired over? Poor oppressed schmuck.
@James Earl Cash To be honest, I'm getting worked up too because McLaghing just dismisses all my arguments as "none of them are logical or evidence" and manages to clip out one of my sentences again and then make a snide strawman out of it ("Silly me that I thought that restricting something only to a specific race was racism!") like I'm double-standard moron who can't see the logical inconsistencies. I listed "the KKK Imperial Dragon thing", the cards Damore plays that come right out of the MRA deck, and of course there's the lawsuit and the company this guy keeps and apparently doesn't want them to be tossed aside lightly, much less thrown with great force. One question: has Damore ever denounced the MRAs and white supremacists who support his work, even a little? If he did, perhaps that'll ease things up, but I haven't seen information on it. I will stand corrected if he actually does, though. I'm thinking I'm being more accommodating of McLaghing than he deserves. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:49, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
That's the dictionary definition, which is only one component I'd use to determine whenever someone is a white supremacist. The reality is, though, most white supremacists are sneaky bastards and like to sugar-coat their language like "WHY NOT ALL LIVES MATTER???", It's Okay To Be White, Anti-racist is a code word for anti-white, White guilt, and, written in the Slate article, try to peg minority outreach groups for "it's discrimination" reasons. And there's the whole birth certificate thing which has roots in racism. That being said, I can't say for sure if he's a white supremacist and I don't think it's even relevant if he is or not. The matter is, the company he keeps (his lawyer for instance) is far from pleasant and are literal white supremacists, he is at least sympathetic to KKK, and he abuses science and the agreeable idea of open honest communication and intellectual "diversity" to advance goals including slicking minority outreach groups with "it's reverse-discrimination" mud / "wanting women to be in tech is like wanting women to be in prison", and encouraging "conservative" viewpoints (I doubt they're merely "conservative" especially when in the memo, he never explicitly says what the "conservative" viewpoints are and in this time and age, "conservative viewpoints that are being oppressed even though we'll conveniently leave out how conservatives dominate all powers in government" is well-associated with general bigotry). --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@James Earl Cash, @LeftyGreenMario I respond to both of you:
"I mean actually be willing to change your views instead of sneer at us like we're a bunch of irrationalists" <- The only one here who are not willing to challenge their views is you and LeftyGreenMario. Gimme any evidence of Damore supporting white supremacists and I would be glad to put it on the page by myself. The point is that no such evidence has been produced for the claim you made and, since the burden of the proof in on who make the accusation, the one acting dishonestly are you, not certain me. Indeed, both of you said "I don't know if he's an actual white supremacist", "I can't say for sure if he's a white supremacist" so how can you support any claim is such direction!?
"HE IS DEFENDING THE FUCKING KKK!" writing this all CAPS doesn't make it true. Probably the majority of people at Comic-con would say that "Grand Dragon" and "Imperial Wizard" are cool titles, that is not an evidence for support of KKK. Otherwise, Michael Jordan is a Nazi because once he had Hitler-style mustaches... Regarding not demonizing the KKK, he just said that "If you make the actual KKK the only place where you can acknowledge the coolness of D&D terms, then you’ll just push people into the KKK" where KKK could be replaced by anything else without changing in any way the idea. You can said that it is something false, and I agree that such a scenario where people go to the KKK because of cool names is unrealistic, but still there is no support for white supremacists from Damore. Actually, he is giving a (flawed) suggestion to not push people into the KKK.
"has Damore ever denounced the MRAs and white supremacists who support his work, even a little?" <- First, it doesn't matter. If X support the work of Y, X is a white supremacist, and Y does not denounce X, that does not imply that Y is a white supremacist. Yours is some kind of "Guilt by association" fallacy. Second, Damore did denounce them, the entire sentence on cool titles was: "The KKK is horrible and I don’t support them in any way, but can we admit that their internal title names are cool, e.g. “Grand Wizard”?" ...
Regarding you being angry for me "clipping stuff" you said, if I do that it is because I am commenting only on the part I quoted. If you start by a wrong premise, I stop you there and I explain while, that's no need to quote your whole paragraph. This makes easier to understand exactly where I disagree with you, while quoting entire long sentences and paragraphs would make that extremely difficult.
That's no point in continuing to avoid the problem: Both of you are not interested in the facts, and you showed that by not providing evidences for your "he's a white supremacist" claim, but just very long ranting of how you feel he is a white supremacist and we should believe you because you can somehow read Damore's mind... --McLaghing (talk) 10:41, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
At this point, I'm ready to call you either a clueless, but stubborn person or an outright intellectually dishonest pain in the ass. One who can't understand or doesn't want to understand the nature of doublespeak (which we have tried to explain to you time and time again through examples; here's another parallel, the creationists and global warming denier twats wanting to advance 'critical thinking' and 'academic freedom' and Academic Freedom Act and you defending them and saying 'where do they explicitly say they want to teach creationism and global warming denial) and how Damore's arguments, his targets being "sacred" minority support groups, are terrible and the company he keeps but won't shoo (including his lawyer) are also terrible. but no, he never actually said he hates minority groups and he isn't a sexist and therefore, our arguments are assumptions just pulled out of our asses. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
That's the long and short of it. All my encounters with McLaghing, he has been obstinate and unyielding to hear my side. When he reverted this page at the first sign of trouble without having a proper discussion, as he's reported me to the brass for having done so in the past to other pages based on perceived slights? When the implication is that he alone should approve any other changes to apparently "his portion" of the page, namely that which concerns the memo alone (and not Damore's later acitivites)? That was my breaking point. James Earl Cash (talk) 21:45, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Was my mistake on defending him the first time. I'm sorry about that. On my part, Basic income, I had little interest and knowledge about income, and I thought you two were bickering and you reached breaking point, and I saw only the insults and all. I'd still refrain from personal attacks though, though I myself may have slipped with "pain in the ass", close to other things, but I have to be honest... --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:08, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Heh, it's alright. I can only guess at what you have to deal with as a mod on a regular basis by comparison, and in the wake of everything simmering down past my one hour block, my big wall o' text above probably just cemented peoples' impressions of me. Still, yours truly's reaction to, ahem, current events could have gotten a lot uglier all things considered, so I'm glad at least that didn't happen. James Earl Cash (talk) 04:49, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Sure thing. I want to be fair to both sides though, and I think ignoring requests for me to come would not look on my end. Without engaging myself, I'm slow to make assumptions about anything, which means I have to take both of your words' for it. When I see language being more colorful in one side, I'm inclined to think that side is getting unhinged and unnecessarily nasty so I just end up targeting that side and defending the other. This has happened before with ikanreed and Ariel, where I had to tell off ikanreed and defend Ariel despite the latter making arguments I strongly disagree with. But I think I have better idea now with you two, but I do hope this doesn't happen again. I really hope those incidents will make people learn that strong language can cause mods like me to misunderstand and take decisions that may not be in the best interest of the quality of the articles. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:58, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Yeah I'll definitely try to rein myself in the future no matter what happens. Especially now that I've cleared my name, I'll do my best not to jeopardize that anytime soon.
@McLaghing, I don't know if you're still reading this, but as a final note, there is no excuse for the way you're acting right now. Regardless of what happened between us in the past, and I'm not going to be deliberately obtuse and pretend you might not have taken offense at me taking a stab at this article after you made it given our history, there's one thing here: You won. You won on the basic income page and you won here, but now you're alienating yourself from the people who had your back. Even if you had reservations with some of my additions here, you had a chance to prove your side when the mods had your back but you quit at the first sign of trouble and were quick to lash out. Especially with your ridiculous edit warring going on now which I know given the notes you're leaving in the history section, is a callback to us having had at it on the Molyneux page when I was still a regular user. You're digging your own hole. Quit while you're ahead. James Earl Cash (talk) 04:55, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
I characterize the edit warring and mocking behavior as juvenile and spiteful. Let's act like grown ups, we are better than this. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 06:14, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
@James Earl Cash "when I was still a regular user" <- I have to curb your enthusiasm: You are still a regular user. Essentially everybody here becomes a sysop, there's nothing special about that.
"You're digging your own hole" <- Which hole? After some experiments, I'm now sure that editing this wiki is a waste of time. It has been fun for a short time, and I have learn many interesting things (by my own), especially while writing the page on cognitive differences between sexes. But putting more effort in: explaining every since sentence, writing numbered lists of each of my rebuttal/proposal, answering to every rebuttal by argumentation and evidences... while on the other side the "arguments" are: "I think it sounds like...", "HE IS DEFENDING THE FUCKING KKK!", "It's doublespeak...", etc. Then, no thanks. I can spend my time in more interesting and productive ways. Have fun in your "echo chamber", to quote Damore. --McLaghing (talk) 16:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, CowHouse warned you about blocking MAI742 because he was a fellow sysop, Cheeseburger gave you a warning right here that you might lose your privileges and Bongolian admonished me in the Basic Income page for behavior unbecoming a sysop right after I was given the reins when we first had at it on that particular talk page. You are far too cavalier about this. But hey, it's your choice. James Earl Cash (talk) 17:30, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Your arguments were just just "he didn't explicitly said he was racist or sexist so his statements can't be racist or sexist, much less a white supremacist or an MRA". Also, we've looked at your criticism, considered them, rejected them. You might not like the result, but it's not an echo chamber. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:55, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario saying it is doublespeak doesn't get you out of the requirement of providing evidence that he is in fact double speaking. Because, "doublespeak" is non-falsifiable and not a legitimate argument unless you can back it up with evidence that he is doing so (actually its pretty much a conspiracy theory). I could argue that you are really a Russian Troll because I don't like what you are saying but unless I have evidence, none of us have any reason to take me seriously. And when you accuse someone of double speak you make argument impossible because there is no way to defend against that claim as it isn't falsifiable. So Mario, prove to me you aren't a Russian troll and I'll agree your doublespeak argument is legit. As to the creationists, we know they are double speaking when they say they are "advancing critical thinking" because they are saying we should put creationism in schools at the exact same time! So it isn't double speak at all, it is in fact single speak, they are saying exactly what they want.
Also, FYI, affirmative action is by definition systemic discrimination against white men. Don't bother debating me, go pick up your dictionary and argue with that if you don't like it, it's not my fault, it's the dictionary. However, we can have a debate whether or not its a productive way to counter past discrimination against minorities (hint: it is). But we have to recognize that this is a lesser of two evils argument because it is evil to discriminate against individual white men based on their gender and race. But it is more evil to allow the systemic racism to continue to harm minorities today. In effect, affirmative action is an ends justify the means argument. If you actually read Damore's memo you'll see that Damore is trying to question whether the ends justify the means and whether there are alternative ways to achieve the ends. He is also pointing out that anyone who questions the means is instantly attacked (which your implications that he is racist just prove). When read in this light it might help you understand how his arguments are not in fact sexist or racist and why your whole guilt by perceived association argument doesn't really work here. In fact, the premise of his argument was that we should judge people as individuals and not as members of a race or gender, this is the opposite of racism and sexism. I think this is what @McLaghing was trying to get you to realize. You are reading this through a lens that is likely very different from the lens it was written under and you are thus jumping to conclusions that aren't in the memo. The principal of charity dictates we should interpret someone's writings in the best light possible. So why don't we do that here, this could be a good learning moment for you.
TLDR. The whole KKK thing and thing about him aligning with white supremacists and the implication that he is racist are total BS, unsupported, an association fallacy, and guilty by association and should be taken down. Lansellion (Talk) 06:55, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Sorry Mario for stealing (what Lans intended to be) your thunder, but I saw this person and had to respond.
Damore's actively trying to undermine affirmative action and programs for women/minorities but cloaks it by concern trolling, then moves onto the ludicrous assertion that white conservatives are somehow discriminated against by virtue of something as private as their politics, which both has no place at work and is especially ridiculous when conservatism has taken on a new meaning in today's America. You're essentially restricting double speak to a very narrow definition, to the point that we can't say anything negative about him or judge his words. Despite some of his shady statements when it comes to attempts to eliminating systemic workplace discrimination on actual biological traits like race and gender and especially his goofier ones about the KKK. And sure, he wants us to look at individuals, but still makes sweeping statements about women anyway while not accounting for how damaging the system itself is to the individuals he claims to speak for. Sounds totes legit.
The idea that people are intolerant of what he's saying to the point that he was fired for it which somehow proves his point is the tired and trite canard that yes, people are intolerant of intolerance. How horrible for him, I did a kick step and a hop when Fred Phelps bit the dust. Guess I'm a complete monster. It's also a tautological circlejerk that is preloaded with Damore's conclusion in mind instead of analyzing the larger atmosphere and the circumstances surrounding his firing. Someone who makes quite frankly bizarre statements about the KKK after being fired for statements about race and gender is not someone I'm inclined to look at in a favorable light, sorry not sorry. I don't think Damore is an actual white supremacist if only because I quite frankly think he's too dull for any of that sort of business, but his quick flirtation with alt-right figures like Molyneux and Peterson raises more than a few eyebrows. I sincerely wouldn't be surprised if he made any formal alignment anytime soon or if he made a remark that revealed he privately had racist beliefs. James Earl Cash (talk) 05:37, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
"He is also pointing out that anyone who questions the means is instantly attacked (which your implications that he is racist just prove)."
I see it more as people dismissing his arguments and calling them ludicrous (the comparison to prison representation, again, is god awful to borderline offensive and I understand why people would think he's a sexist). If he wants to present an actual discussion, perhaps he can try finding sources that aren't opinion articles that compare white conservatives' plight to black and gays passing (IMO is pretty hideously offensive too). If he seriously wants discussion, he should take much more care on his research. He failed to demonstrate that tact on a sensitive subject. If he gave us actual facts to work with, not slime like Christina Hoff Sommers and Warren Ferrell or misrepresentation of actual research. He also doesn't really care about the company he attracts either. Aside from frequent naked assertions otherwise, what has Damore seriously done to distance himself from actual sexists and racists? His reading comprehension and reasoning are sloppy and careless. I think it's on him if he's "unfairly" categorized as a racist or sexist, and moreso when his derisive and self-victimizing language, directed at the institutions he targets, reflects alt-lite talking points. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:55, 5 April 2018 (UTC)


This article states that Damore was doxxed. Is it true? If so, should be mentioned in the article, as it's a despicable action and we don't condone that kind of behavior.

Oh, a wordy side-note I also mostly disagree with the article. I don't disagree there are inherent biological differences, but Soh doesn't rule out any confounding societal conditioning factors between the correlation of testosterone and a preference for male-typical toys. After all, male-typical, wheeled toys didn't exist, much less defined as "male-typical" for most of humanity. What if the researchers told the kids, say, that a pink car was for boys and a blue car was for girls? Or an otherwise gender-neutral toy colored to be either male or female? How is "male-typical" defined? I don't know much of the research beyond the abstract. Soh thinks the people who have a problem with the memo think there ARE no differences between the brains or deny that women are prone to higher anxiety, but there are people have a problem because the memo exaggerates those differences and then makes the conclusion that women can't achieve higher positions because of those differences, which is the sexist element of it. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:00, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I'd avoid it for now, if my humble opinion is being considered. She doesn't cite any proof of him being doxxed or offer any specifics. For all we know, she could be referring to the big media hubbub following him being fired.
Also, in much of Europe and Asia, blue is a girls' color, and pink/red are boys' colors. Pink for a long time even in the states wasn't considered to be feminine until the 50s I think. And then there's the matter of transgender and nonbinary people. Or how women dominated computer science fields compared to men until the mid-80s. Damore says that computer science wasn't a lucrative high status position back then, but that doesn't account for his nomenclature of interest in people vs. things that he's so hung up on when it comes to gender differences. So yeah, I deffo think Soh isn't getting the overall picture of why people were offended. James Earl Cash (talk) 04:55, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Found this after doing some Google-fu, seems like it would interest you and a GREAT counterpoint to Damore's memo. I don't know where it could be added to the article or even if it could, but something to keep in mind for future revisions. James Earl Cash (talk) 06:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
"She doesn't cite any proof of him being doxxed " <- Wait! Now do you need proofs for claiming something? The more you talk the more you show your double standard... --McLaghing (talk) 09:13, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
For the record, nobody here claimed Damore was a white supremacist. However his goals are scarily close to their's when it comes to eliminating diversity outreach programs, a goal that would only be racist and hurt other races. Not getting into his dubious company since then. If you don't see how saying the KKK is cool or whatever is not something that raises serious red flags then yeah...I'm struggling to even think of a way to put it that you'd get since his earlier statements haven't ruffled your feathers. James Earl Cash (talk) 16:03, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
@James Earl Cash: I did have the coloring in mind when it came to pink = boy and blue = girl, I was even expecting that kind of response, heh. Hence, I did have the entire "socialization can reverse just like that" which throws a big question on the definition of what exactly a "male-typical" toy is. On the other hand, the color itself is a good control IMO because it doesn't change the actual shape of the thing (see, what if I prefer dolls over cars because they're easy to throw and cuddle with, not because it's a girl's toy; I actually love both dolls and cars though the "dolls" I mainly played with are the Mario ones...). Not the best control though because who knows if color preferences are even sex-related, so maybe an extra control saying the colored toys are neutral.
I took the time to read the link and I think so far, we can put it in the external link. I couldn't comprehend some of it, though, since I kinda gloss over "gene expression" but I think I got the general idea: it's complicated. Hence, my problem with Damore's memo was how oversimplified it is. To be fair on my end, I didn't check his sources that much (I should've but I kind of tried to go easy on myself, I don't have training to parse through a lot of science papers since they're garbled so that's really difficult for me to think critically; it's even worse to try to be critical of science papers when they reach conclusions I find satisfactory).
To be clear, I don't think Damore is straight-on white supremacist, and if you think I did, I probably gave the wrong impression, but Damore flirts with it and doesn't really distance himself, maybe he doesn't have strong opinions either way. Fine. To his credit, he does more of an effort than Trump at least. There's one thing criticizing minority support programs, but you have to be reasonable and make good arguments. If you don't, it just comes off as attacking them for no reason and that'll make people think you have worse intentions. My opinion, I think firing is a little strong, but his memo was insulting to me because the generalizations he makes about me and how he assumes people who share similar viewpoints to me, "the left" are blind and unaccommodating, they're insulting generalizations. If I was in a large game company and there was a memo written about female developers who can't advance in their careers because they have innate biological features such as being nervous and more interested in "people" than "things", I'd be offended though not angry. Just upset. Like "I'm not like that, I love 'things'" and "well, I'm generally nervous, but this memo makes me more upset and nervous, and is this what my male coworkers think of me?" And "I value women's game development outreach because I feel alone and alien in a male-dominated environment, and I'm nervous if I'll ever get sexually harassed and all... I really don't like how he's targeting those". And "I.... wonder what your 'conservative' viewpoints are... I need to know so I won't have a knee-jerk reaction and we can come to an understanding even if we disagree." I wouldn't resign over a silly memo, but it makes me uncomfortable, and it's worse when the reasoning in the memo is not even good.
@McLaghing I don't understand that "double standard". Analyzing a paper, as we did, also requires support, which we've shown. We never argued that they don't need support, we just say that the "assertions" are backed up by reasoning, which includes us providing examples and parallels of dodgy language that is used in the paper. Doxxing, unlike our previous arguments, that requires a reference.
I ping in response because I myself sometimes miss out on new responses and promptly forget. I think that happens to people a lot, especially with those with ADHD, like me. So, doesn't hurt to ping. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:52, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMarioI think you are over reading the article when you complain that it didn't address whether society or biology cause gender differences. First off, it was a memo designed to start a conversation on the subject. Second, the cause is totally irrelevant to the conversation. His point was that there might be fewer women interested in tech (btw he never said anything about women being less capable of achieving high positions, he stated that they might be less interested in it. There is a huge difference between those two things). If it is true that women have a lower interest level in tech (I have no idea, don't know if there is good research on this), it does not matter if it is caused by nature or nurture because the differences do in fact exist. The primary purpose was to criticize the culture where it was deemed unacceptable to bring up differences between genders which really do exist. And to your point about people being mad about the differences between men and women being "exaggerated" need to consider seriously his point about more men being in prison or homeless. If you think the gender differences are exaggerated that means you think that more men are homeless due to sexism against men and that more men are in prison because sexism that causes the system to go lighter on women than men. We could extend further and say that rape and sexual harassment on men by women must be under reported because the differences between men and women are negligible. So the argument that the differences between men and women are slight should lead to policies that try to raise awareness of the sexual violence perpetrated by women on men and increase enforcement of crimes against women. If you don't agree with those ideas, then you need to be willing to admit that the gender differences are potentially bigger than you would like to admit. Point being, the criticism regarding differences between men and women being minor is a really weak point unless you are willing to admit men are significantly discriminated against when it comes to homelessness and criminal punishment. Lansellion (talk) 04:36, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Oh Jesus, this got ugly fast. I must be a sucker for punishment returning to the same flamebait when I've made few significant changes on other articles since then like I should be doing, but I'm gonna make this quick.
Yes, there probably is systemic discrimination against men when it comes to homelessness and punishment. Ever heard of toxic masculinity? That only proves that yes, systemic discrimination exists and it counts for a lot when it comes to people's opportunities! So it's not surprising that the odds are stacked against women and minorities too, not by any biology but by the system itself! You don't know if women are naturally less interested in tech? What are you doing here then? Because there's definitely more than a bit of hostility in your demands to be civil at all costs. James Earl Cash (talk) 05:20, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
"The primary purpose was to criticize the culture where it was deemed unacceptable to bring up differences between genders which really do exist. And to your point about people being mad about the differences between men and women being "exaggerated" need to consider seriously his point about more men being in prison or homeless."
It didn't bring anything worthwhile in the conversation. No one has ever denied differences between the genders, but the document at the same time grossly oversimplifies and exaggerates them. And the whole idea of "more men being in prison or homeless" wasn't even part of that memo, was it? The memo was more about whining about oppressed white conservative men (without every specifying what "conservatism" they're talking about) and also oversimplifying the research cited here. And if you're going to bring up "but what about prison and homelessness", I can also say "minorities are also overrepresented in prison and homelessness" yet the document wants to undercut minority outreach groups, those designed to address the disadvantage minorities face, because he believes they discriminate against white men. At the same time, while men are sometimes at a disadvantage in some cases, the very big picture is that women are at a disadvantage.
The only mention of "homelessness" and the implied "men dominate homelessness rates" is when he makes an atrocious analogy that "increasing women representation in tech is like wanting to have more women homeless". I shouldn't have to explain how utterly stupid it is, I hope. If he wants a real discussion, he should at least think his own argument through, not quarter-ass it like this in a middle of an airplane flight. If this is really how he argues, no wonder nobody takes his "conservative" viewpoints seriously.
By far the biggest problem in this memo, IMO, is Damore's vagueness on his "conservative" views. A lot of times, people self-describe themselves as "conservative" when in reality, they're bigots. If he doesn't specify what he means by "conservative" all while misrepresenting research and disparaging minority outreach groups as "reverse-discrimination" for no good reason, it raises a stink for me. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:57, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
""(btw he never said anything about women being less capable of achieving high positions, he stated that they might be less interested in it. There is a huge difference between those two things)"
"Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don't have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership."
"Im simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don't see equal representation of women in tech and leadership."
"List of personality differences"
What is this then? I don't see any statement that "women are simply less interested", at least not in the memo. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:04, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

@Lansellion I left a message on your talk page but you must not have read it. At the end of your comment, you appear to be writing your username and then five tildes. Instead, please sign using four tildes: ~~~~. This will automatically include a timestamp and links to your user page and user talk page. CowHouse (talk) 07:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Christ, you really have lost it haven't you[edit]

Perfectly nice, intelligent guy writes a very balanced (oops, can't have that can we) fair-minded and even-handed critique of cowardly capitulation to liberal fascism online and you write a hack-job smear-piece attacking him. Think I'd find more intellectual honesty at Huff Post. --Let Them Eat Cake (talk) 19:37, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

This talk page is a mess[edit]

Brevity. Concise. Impossible. —ClickerClock (talk) 04:24, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

I feel I expend way too much verbiage explaining my stance on things. Is the main article at least good? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 04:43, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
It's very through with debunking that memo. Great work. But wall of text. —ClickerClock (talk) 04:48, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Goodpost.gif thanks! But hey, if wall-of-text leads to better article, it's not necessarily a bad thing, right? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 04:56, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Correct. —ClickerClock (talk) 04:57, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
See also: Talk:Water fluoridation. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 04:47, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Damn. —ClickerClock (talk) 04:48, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

The article seems to be fairly well organized and balanced. I don't think it debunks Damore's memo though: I would call it an expression of concern, with a little "alt-right, and nazis and science--oh my!" Ariel31459 (talk) 14:18, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Some criticism may appear to be idiotic to neutral parties.[edit]

"While his initial attitude was questionable and had attracted the plucky company of the sexist MRAs and white supremacists, his further actions would just further paint him as just another poor white dude who cries, "Come see the violence Inherent in the System! Help! Help! I'm being repressed!" and, beyond that, has nothing useful to offer when it comes to critiquing help for minorities and women (or, as he calls it, positive discrimination) or the suffering "conservative minority viewpoint" despite conservatives dominating all branches of government in the U.S., like similar poor white dudes in his company." What is wrong with this "block"? Just about everything. Ariel31459 (talk) 23:25, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

The only thing I can think of is maybe the tone, but everything else was what I garnered from this guy. Damore thinks white conservatives are "silenced". They're certainly not, as their own government represents them. If anything, white male conservatives get their platform all the time, see the entire Kevin "Women with abortions should be hanged" Williamson nonsense. He was booted off for having half-baked views, but he never loses that voice, does he? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:43, 25 April 2018 (UTC)
It is histrionic, suggests a bigoted attitude of its very own, and incoherently the US Government is cited to demonstrate what? Do I have to explain "As above, so below?" is a specious argument? And now you point out Kevin Williamson was fired too. Good, he is a freaking nut. But it is an incoherent view that the two incidences are related.Ariel31459 (talk) 00:02, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

May someone please remove this sentence?[edit]

This sentence "In addition to implying that women were less skilled at their jobs at others, he created the atmosphere of discrimination he claimed he was fighting against." is, I would argue, ideologically motivated. Unless you can point out where in Damore's memo he implied women were "less skilled at their jobs", this sentence appears to me as written by a left-leaning ideologue with poor reading comprehension. --Moobnert (talk) 12:42, 5 May 2018 (UTC)

Go ahead and improve it. The sentence is also ungrammatical: "less skilled at their jobs at others," It can't stand as is.Ariel31459 (talk) 12:50, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Honestly, giving this article a second read reaffirms to me that it is so uncompromisingly tainted with left-leaning ideologue ranting that making it more 'rational' and less ideologue-oriented would be fighting a steep uphill battle. For now, I'll leave my suggestion up for a few days and see if any other RW editors present a counterargument. If not, I'll go ahead and remove the sentence.--Moobnert (talk) 18:29, 5 May 2018 (UTC)
Grammatical hiccups aside, when he says that women are naturally more neurotic and more suited to part-time work than full-time work, I think that's a pretty big indictment on it's own. When he says that early computer science was "just accounting," as if that means anything, not getting into how many women were pioneers in the field back in the day, yes, that is an attack. When he dismisses attempts to get women into tech based on these red herrings, it doesn't need justification. It's self-evident.
I also think you might be trying to reinvent the wheel here. There doesn't need to be a balance. Hardcore centrists in the 30s-40s, and now after the Charlottesville attack, campaigned for Nazis to have their right to free speech, ignoring the fact that they're fricking Nazis. Hateful rhetoric doesn't need to be aired out or given a platform, and should be condemned at every opportunity. It's been heard. It needs to be shut down. This kind of talk is more popular with people than the public is willing to accept. Nazism was an actual movement that led to millions killed and a nationalistic empire based on racism. In the states, the KKK held quite a bit of power in the shadows back in the day. Even now, actual Nazis are making a resurgence. I should add that I don't think he's any of these or that anyone here is advocating for that, though Damore's weird tweets about the KKK still ruffle my feathers. But I think striving for "balance" here might be a misguided mission.
Still, with all that in mind, perhaps then it's only appropriate that Damore's actions receive the censure they have. James Earl Cash (talk) 00:04, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
@James Earl Cash Your comment is a prime example of what I was referring to when I mentioned how RW articles are uncompromisingly tainted with left-leaning ideologue banter with no rational basis to justify such banter. If you define 'rational' at its simplest to mean able to be demonstrated scientifically, then you should realize based on relevant peer-reviewed literature that women are on average more neurotic than men and this is a robust and cross-culturally consistent finding. So rationally, this shouldn't be a point of reference to criticize Damore on because his statements are consistent with literature. As for your second point, I don't think I've ever heard Damore say women are "more suited to part-time work than full-time work" and you're welcome to find a direct quote to show otherwise. I've heard Damore use words like "prefer", not "suited" because he has spoken about women tending to prefer part-time work over full-time in order to achieve a work and family life balance. If by "suited" you are implying that Damore is implying women are more 'biologically suited' for part-time over full-time work, then that interpretation is a manifestation of your leftist ideologue bias. I remain thoroughly unconvinced that Damore's statements on gender differences of trait neuroticism and women's preference for part-time work are an indictment of his i.e. bigotry, or lack of being rational.
As for your comment on Damore's statement of earlier programming being more akin to 'just accounting' than today's programming, I suppose you have some leeway to state your views on this without me immediately considering your perspective as a leftist ideologue viewpoint. This is because you can interpret 'just accounting' and Damore's choice to describe it as such in several ways. Personally, I understood from Damore's comment that the level of complexity for programming has evolved to such an extent that programming from the early days and today are not practically comparable in terms of hands-on work and the process by which you learn how to perform such work. Hence, if you believe early day and contemporary programming isn't comparable as to what the profession entails from a worker, then you should expect the tendency for either gender to freely select the profession in the pursuit of their own interests to also be different for early day vs. contemporary programming. So that can be a factor in determining the change in ratio of men and women working programming jobs during the course of programming's evolution.
Either way, discussing the ratio of men and women in programming over time is completely missing the point. If you read Damore's memo, he is addressing Google's diversity objectives at obtaining a 50/50 male/female parity. He then pointed out that Google probably will not achieve this parity not because Google is some sexist institution that favors male applicants over female ones (consider their mandatory diversity objectives and quotas), but probably because men and women are interested in different things and these interest averages of the genders will tend the genders towards unequal outcomes such as choice in profession. This is just logical, but it appears it's extremely difficult for some lefties to consider factors in disparities that isn't just blunt discrimination. Not every social disparity or discrepancy can be adequately explained with discrimination.
Another important point is that Damore is not dismissing "attempts to get women into tech based on these red herrings" because 1. Damore's memo is about facilitating women getting into tech, not preventing them and 2. those points you listed aren't red herrings since personality differences of men and women is not an irrelevant distraction to the main issue of women's representation in tech, and neither is the propensity for either gender to uptake part-time or full-time work. The evolution of programming is also important in addressing the question of why women's representation in tech fluctuated over time the way that it did because you cannot assume that programming as a profession has remained constant in terms of work-related content from its early days to now.
Your last paragraph is completely pointless leftist ideologue ranting that has nothing to do with Damore or his memo because nothing Damore said constitutes "hateful rhetoric" as you put it. The fact that you would consider Damore's points as "hateful rhetoric" shows me how completely lost you are in your leftist bias. And don't get me wrong, as a left-leaning person myself, I'm also biased as well. But the difference is I at least try to reconcile my bias with rationality. The easiest way to do that in the case of Damore is to actually read the bloody memo he wrote and evaluate it using the scientific literature. In that memo, he spoke of ways to reduce the gender gap in tech, including "We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration." Based on Damore's understanding of psychology literature, where men tend to be more thing-oriented, and women tend to be more people-oriented, he uses this knowledge to state how he thinks Google can reduce the gender gap. He is actively trying to pursue the very same goals Google has, the same goals I would have, and the same goals you would presumably have, which is to make a company's work appealing to both men and women and not unfairly disadvantage and hinder one gender over the other.
I mean, Google seems to me to be trying it's best to obtain parity of gender by including mandatory diversity training programs as well as pressuring bosses leading programming groups in Google to meet the demand of their diversity quotas. Despite all this effort, women's representation in tech hovers around 25%. Are you really going to argue this is a consequence of discrimination? You really don't think there are rational ways to explain a gender gap in circumstances where an individual's personal choice in pursuing a programming career is one of the main arbiters in determining what the gender representation will be? And don't think for a second that I ignore discrimination as a factor in gender disparities, but I strongly argue based on my experience that left-leaning individuals have a propensity to attribute gender disparities entirely to discrimination, and when you try to point out to them that gender differences in interests will tend the genders unequally in the career world, they will tell you you're espousing "hateful rhetoric." What you end up doing is alienating allies like Damore in the pursuit of obtaining a fair accommodating workplace for women in male-dominated lines of work. It's not a good strategy. --Moobnert (talk) 12:55, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
A bit of a wall of text there, so I'm going to keep this short and address the main points.
You should actually read the studies Damore quoted. Look at the reactions of scientists. Lots of them have taken issue with the way he's interpreted studies, and some of the studies that he quoted said that the personality differences in question were miniscule at best. It's definitely overreaching to try and shut the discussion down by saying that peer-reviewed literature supports any of what he says in the slightest. I'd also say that someone who compares trying to get women into tech on par with men as compared to trying to get women equally represented in prisons has already shot themselves in the foot. When he repeatedly emphasizes biology, that speaks for itself. So no, I'm not going to give him any mercy.
Your own comments on accounting and early computer science are self-damning nonsense too. You are actually claiming that nowadays women aren't smart enough for computer science because back then it was so simple which is insulting enough, never mind the numerous female pioneers of computer science that helped launch it to where it is. Beyond that, in poorer nations even today that use the same tech we do, women tend to dominate computer science fields as opposed to men. Want to try and explain that one away?
re: Your spiel about Google not being a sexist institution and that men and women are naturally interested in different things. Utter nonsense. Attempts to get more women and POC into tech doesn't equate to actually doing it. Look at the stats for the company. They are failing, badly. Besides, a megacorp like Google can afford to get away with being discriminatory. They're big and rich. They're Google. For crying out loud, you are assuming far too much good faith from them. Damore himself has slammed diversity programs and was praised for it. His recommendation was a set of solutions which don't help anyone in substantive depth and reduces women's place in the workplace to practically that of second class citizens. Next you're going to say that #MeToo is bollocks.
Yeah they're red herrings, although that's being extraordinarily nice about them. They're also bigoted nonsense that don't lead anywhere and say nothing about the actual science on men and women, or actually address the problem. Women choose their professions based on work related content? I don't know what that's supposed to mean, but I already don't like it. Damore even admitted that men also came to dominate computer science when it was seen as more high-status. So you have no leg to stand on.
He doesn't have to call women a bunch of nagging stupid harpies on alimony in order to be offensive. When he downplays attempts to get women into tech and tries to "improve" their place based on a bunch of stupid stereotypes that ironically enough keep them from getting on equal footing with men, yes, that is bigotry.
Yes, I think it is discrimination. You are giving way too much credit to Google, where men and white people are still over-represented. Even if they are legitimately trying their hardest, what goes on in these diversity programs and the attempts to get people on-board with others is not going to go down well with the status quo. To the point that even Ariel in trying to cover for Damore's ass unintentionally showed a problem here, where a transgender person was fired for being exactly that. And your use of "rational" is pretty close to a meaningless buzzword.
As a final closer, whining about "leftist ideologue bias," all the while claiming you're left-leaning is a red flag if I've ever seen one. Next you're gonna start whining about how them gosh dern SJWs are the root of all the modern day problems in society while the REAL LEFT needs to take the Dave Rubin route. James Earl Cash (talk) 15:41, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Holy ****. You are so far gone in your leftist ideology; you're completely blind to it. It's unreal honestly. I could comment on so much of what you just wrote, but it's doubtful you'll listen to reason. But maybe you will listen to reason with science, so I will only address the science behind Damore's claims.
You said "You should actually read the studies Damore quoted. Look at the reactions of scientists." Okay, let's do that. Professor David P. Schmitt, psychologist and director of ISDP leading the largest cross-cultural research team in nearly 60 countries around the world, has stated "A Google employee recently shared a memo that referenced some of my scholarly research on psychological sex differences (e.g., personality traits, mate preferences, status-seeking)...I think it’s really important to discuss this topic scientifically, keeping an open mind and using informed skepticism when evaluating claims about evidence. In the case of personality traits, evidence that men and women may have different average levels of certain traits is rather strong. For instance, sex differences in negative emotionality [neuroticism] are universal across cultures; developmentally emerge across all cultures at exactly the same time; are linked to diagnosed (not just self-reported) mental health issues; appear rooted in sex differences in neurology, gene activation, and hormones; are larger in more gender egalitarian nations; and so forth"
I believe Dr. Schmitt is a worthy example among all scientific researchers to cite because he 1. states unequivocally that the research of gender differences is strong, thereby vindicating Damore's claims on gender differences and proving your fake skepticism of Damore's emphasis on biology to be ideologically driven and 2. Schmitt provides relevant commentary which favors your side of the argument:
"But it is not clear to me how such sex differences are relevant to the Google workplace...the size of these negative emotion sex differences is not very large (typically, ranging between “small” to “moderate” in statistical effect size terminology; accounting for less than 10% of the variance). So, using someone’s biological sex to essentialize an entire group of people’s personality would be like operating with an axe...most of these sex differences are moderate in size and in my view are unlikely to be all that relevant to the Google workplace..Sex differences in occupational interests, personal values, and certain cognitive abilities are a bit larger in size, but most psychological sex differences are only small to moderate in size...Now, treating people as dichotomous sexes is exactly what many affirmative action policies do. As this is not my area of expertise, I can only offer my non-expert opinion on this issue, which is this: There have been (and likely will continue to be) many socio-structural barriers to women working in technological jobs. These include culturally-embedded gender stereotypes, biased socialization practices, in some cultures explicit employment discrimination, and a certain degree of masculinization of technological workplaces. Within this sea of gender bias, should Google use various practices (affirmative action is not just one thing) to especially encourage capable women of joining (and enjoying) the Google workplace? I vote yes. At the same time, should we be able to openly discuss and be informed by some of the real psychological sex differences that might account for variation in men’s and women’s workplace performance? In the right context, I vote yes to that, too."
So do you agree with the professor or not? He supports your viewpoint in that affirmative action is one positive way to increase women's representation in tech, but he also makes it clear that the science cited in Damore's memo is strong and cannot be dismissed. So the scientific literature which Damore based his argument off is solid and you can't dismiss it so easily. That wouldn't be rational. Also, let's compare Dr. Schmitt's comments on small to moderate sex differences (<10% variance) and compare it to the essence of Damore's argument as he wrote in his memo:
"Note, I’m not saying that all men differ from women in the following ways or that these differences are “just.” I’m simply stating that the distribution of preferences and abilities of men and women differ in part due to biological causes and that these differences may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership. Many of these differences are small and there’s significant overlap between men and women, so you can’t say anything about an individual given these population level distributions."
So Damore doesn't seem to say much that contradicts the viewpoint of Dr. Schmitt. I would say the problem with leftist ideologues is that, while they recognize that all social phenomena can be explained through 1. biological and 2. environmental factors, they are more likely to attribute all observed instances of social disparities to environmental factors (discrimination!) and they give almost no credence to biological factors. It is very difficult for them to believe that biological factors can in part explain a social discrepancy such as unequal representation of men and women in certain career choices.
I do have to reply to another one of your god awful pitiful remarks though. You said "You are actually claiming that nowadays women aren't smart enough for computer science because back then it was so simple which is insulting enough. Beyond that, in poorer nations even today that use the same tech we do, women tend to dominate computer science fields as opposed to men. Want to try and explain that one away?"
First of all, I can explain that (in part). Poorer countries are typically less gender egalitarian than richer countries, and in poorer and less gender egalitarian societies, men and women are less free to pursue their innate interests because they have more grievances to deal with, which can influence their career choice more strongly than personal interest. They've done studies on this; the more gender egalitarian the society is, the larger the gender gap becomes for occupations such as programming (or other examples: engineering, nursing). Gender differences in occupation have gotten bigger in these egalitarian societies over time. If you make society more gender egalitarian, then you are (in a way of conceiving the concept) flattening out environmental variability with respect to gender roles (you can be/act however you want) and opportunities (equal to both genders), and if you flatten out environmental variability, all that's left is biological variability and so it maximizes. Men and women have different interests on average, and if people are free to pursue their interests then there will be some disparity in gender representations across various careers. This is not a bigoted concept. This is not even a radical argument. It is actually quite logical and coherent. Hopefully you'll come around and agree.
Second of all, this interpretation "women aren't smart enough for computer science because back then it was so simple" is a result of your bias. Why in god's name would I ever claim or imply that computer science has become more complex therefore women aren't smart enough for today's computer science? Are you serious? To quickly clarify things, you can probably already tell I'm very adamant on referencing the scientific literature, and the science on intelligence shows quite clearly that there are no differences in average intelligences of men and women, so I would never argue or imply such a stupid god forsaken claim that women are not smart enough to do computer science, which by the way, Damore has stated many times that women can be brilliant programmers and he's met many competent female programmers and even his bloody memo is an argument to facilitate increasing the representation of women in tech. I hope you realize that neither I nor Damore are fundamentally your ideological enemies. We all agree on facilitating women's representation in tech. The only difference is you are narrowly focusing on discrimination as a factor causing unequal representations due to your leftist bias (this is not an insult; both the left and right have their biases and psychology literature indicates one of the left's biases is not accepting innate differences between people too easily). Damore is not some sexist looking to uphold some patriarchical status quo; he is looking for solutions to the gender gap using the scientific literature to back his arguments. --Moobnert (talk) 17:54, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
You're doing my work for me. The good professor outright admitted that yes, the differences are miniscule, and yes, stuff like affirmative action isn't nearly enough to combat discrimination. Contrast that to Damore comparing these programs as trying to level out the number of prisons which is obviously insulting. There might be a discussion for biological differences, but not on Damore's terms where he thinks that women on average can't hack it while using the vague alibi that he knows some really good female programmers without specifying anything beyond that (Do they want full time work or part-time work? Are they actually neurotic or pretty well-tempered? etc.), all the while blowing up biology to a ludicrous degree contradicting his earlier claim that biology is small, and certainly not in this particular context, where racists and sexists can and have used it to popularize their agenda.
And the whole answer with gender egalitarian societies is silly too. You're already implying that women naturally don't have an interest in tech, ignoring that women were commonplace in tech even in "richer" countries like the states back in the day before it became high prestige (that last bit about prestige being something even Damore will agree with) while ignoring that there's still gender discrimination even in the best places. Look at the main article. Beyond how loaded a concept like "gender egalitarian society" is (as compared to the current problems plaguing discrimination, anything that is an improvement can look wonderful by comparison), it's been documented that part-time work is a cultural tradition in the Netherlands and such that influences their thinking, and the main problem that a balance of home/work life often leaves them the short end of the stick when it comes to advancing in the workplace.And men often have shorter paid leave to take care of their families and women face hostile treatment in scientific backgrounds as opposed to men. Naturally even then there is a bias against women in tech.
And uh, when you talk about "complexity of work," that is as damning a statement as one can make. Maybe you aren't sexist but the statement itself is, and it's asinine to think that for whatever reason women can't handle the current tech as well as men, and certainly ridiculous to think that they need some half-assed solution like part-time work or else they can't handle it. Especially at a megacorp like Google, which you think is actually decent and fair at all despite the documented statistics of bias listed on the main article.
PS. Damore is a taint. He saw no problem with being interviewed by the likes of Molyneux and Peterson after being fired, refuses to give any second thought to his absurd notions, to say nothing of his strange statements about the KKK afterwards. He's not a liberal in any sense of the word unless you want to count Camille Paglia and Sam Harris as "liberal", and is advocating for "women's representation in tech," so they have the least advantages imaginable. All the while downplaying societal discrimination and hyping up his own ludicrous theories as the definitive word when it comes to the biology. I don't buy it for a second. That's not even getting into his lawsuit against Google, which no words can adequately capture it's sheer insanity. Man is a first rate concern troll. James Earl Cash (talk) 18:49, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
You're a complete and utter fucking idiot and it's RW editors like you that ultimately discourage me from fixing some of the left-leaning bias found in these articles. You continuously ramble along in your ideological speech and it's pathetic; you also conveniently ignore Dr. Schmitt's vindication of Damore's claims and narrowly focus on the comment of 'small to moderate differences' and you STILL insist Damore made a negative implication about women's abilities in tech when he never did; that all exists in your head, you irrational ideologue. People like you give the left a bad name and people like you are the reason why Trump won the election. You have the radical right, but you also have the radical left alienating their own people on the moderate left because of these stupid incoherent ideological games you play. Now, us rational lefties have to deal with far-left ideologues who are so lost in their ideological ramblings that they don't realize their rhetoric is doing the left's goals a complete disservice. At the very least, thank god Wikipedia is much more balanced and much less prone to ideological rambling. RW is good for strictly scientific topics, but the moment articles involving politics and politicized figures are written, there's too much obvious left wing ideological banter that I get sick of it. But whatever, at least it's not a delusional shithole like Conservapedia, but RW definitely has a long way to go in distinguishing rationality written in a style of snarky banter with leftist ideology.
And by the way, Damore used the prison example to demonstrate that a gender gap isn't always a consequence of discrimination; it's not like the criminal system discriminates against men. There are biological and environmental factors explaining social phenomena, and you refuse to acknowledge biological factors because you're irrational and you deserve no place here as an editor, my honest opinion. But at least you have similar goals as Damore and I to make the work-place more accommodating to women in male-dominated industries such as tech, so that's a start I guess.--Moobnert (talk) 19:51, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
People like me getting Trump elected is like saying that MLK and other activists only made the KKK even more popular. And yes, I would say there is definitely a bias against men when it comes to prisons. Look at studies involving the school to prison pipeline, the active discrimination against marginalized men who are POC. Ah well, at least it didn't take you long to use that stupid both sides rhetoric that was popular in the wake of the Charlottesville attack. I came, I saw, I conquered. James Earl Cash (talk) 20:15, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
It must be hard arguing with people who, in their rant, are convinced about "leftist" bias and accuse you of things you haven't really done (like "conveniently ignoring Dr. Schmitt's vindication" when you addressed it well enough). I don't see any value about this whining Moobnert is doing nor his constant valiant tone of "left-wing bias" as if balance for the sake of balance is good. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 02:13, 28 May 2018 (UTC)

The Gaggle at Google[edit]

Not surprisingly, Google does not seem to take diversity seriously beyond its dollars and cents value to the company. Google is currently being sued by an ever increasing number of former employees and for everything from wage inequality and racism to physical assault. It is instructive to see that they have even fired a transgender critic of Damore and, in effect, they have suppressed opinions determined to be too liberal: The following is from Slate,

"Tim Chevalier is an engineer who was fired in November after he had posted left-leaning commentary on Google’s internal message boards, often in opposition to Damore. He characterized the memo as “misogynistic” and contended that “white boys” feel threatened when they aren’t afforded certain privileges. Damore’s suit contains screenshots of a blog post that Chevalier wrote about punching Nazis. Chevalier, who is transgender, alleges in his lawsuit, “Google defines appropriate workplace speech by the standard of what someone with a cisgender, heterosexual, white, male, upper-middle-class background would say.” He further claims that he received censure from superiors and indifference from human resources, which eventually led to his termination."

I find it less than amusing that Chevalier was fired for, among other things, treating others like Mr. Damore with forms of contempt similar to that commonly found in our article. Some account should be given of the many torts currently pending against this corporate Leviathan. Ariel31459 (talk) 02:14, 7 May 2018 (UTC)

It'll be a cold day in hell before anyone says that Google is blameless or innocent. The spying fiasco and collecting cookies in every single search people make is proof of that. And if anything, what you just said is just more fuel to the fire against Damore's argument. Someone of a minority was terminated precisely for being a minority. Look at the stats on the main page where Damore trying to level a lawsuit.
The difference here? Damore is fighting for the ruling class, not the genuinely downtrodden. He has no right to complain, especially when he shat all over diversity programs meant to stop racism. James Earl Cash (talk) 00:07, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Don't be foolish. Damore was not fighting for anything. He is just an autistic engineer who wrote a report. Calm down. We are clean out of torches and pitchforks.Ariel31459 (talk) 23:42, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, when someone makes a lawsuit fighting for white guys over the most specious claims imaginable that don't amount to discrimination in the slightest while he shits on women and POCs, I call it like I see it. James Earl Cash (talk) 23:50, 21 May 2018 (UTC)
I'm sorry. I thought he filed a lawsuit because he was pissed he lost a good job and didn't understand the reason he was given. Never mind.Ariel31459 (talk) 18:45, 22 May 2018 (UTC)

The Memo[edit]

I reviewed what I considered to be the more egregious problems facing the section describing the memo, and so I listed my points below responding to specific quotes. If I can reach some consensus among other RW editors regarding my edit suggestions, I’ll go ahead and edit them.

“This part, however, is probably a later addition from the backlash, though this naked negation alone has made the alt-right recoil in shock and horror at his recanting… nah, they're still there.”

The intention of this sentence is to associate the memo with the alt-right. This is disingenuous as the memo does not argue a proposition that can only be agreed with by those who adhere to alt-right ideology. In case it’s not clear what the proposition of the memo is, it’s this:

“Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership. Discrimination to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business.”

The first part of the proposition is: equal gender representation may in part be hindered by biological causes. This claim can be made by people of varying political beliefs, including those on the left that value diversity. The second part of the proposition is: discrimination (diversity quotas) to reach equal representation is unfair, divisive, and bad for business. I assume this claim is probably more likely to be held by those on the right rather than those on the left. So on the latter note, you might be able to entertain the association of the memo with the alt-right. However, the link is not strong enough to suggest an association of the memo with the alt-right to the readers especially considering the memo made statements that are ideologically in opposition to the exclusive nationalist alt-right ideology (i.e. “I value diversity and inclusion”). The details of the memo don’t show any exclusivity to alt-right ideology. Hence, this sentence should be removed.

“this means women have particular biological personality traits that hinder or at least discourage them in the workplace”

This sentence should be changed to “this means these biological differences “may explain why we don’t see equal representation of women in tech and leadership.”” – It’s important to understand the distinction between the notions ‘biological differences affect the gender gap’ and ‘biological differences affect the gender gap because female biological differences hinder or discourage them in the workplace’ The latter notion is a more specific argument than the former, and the memo never made the argument that specific.

“While Damore makes token appeals that these differences overlap between the sex populations as opposed to strictly confined to one gender, it doesn't take long for him to use his data to undermine goals sought against discrimination towards women at the systemic level, as the implication is that women are biologically this way and there's nothing that can be done about that. “

There’s a lot wrong with this. It suggests to the reader that Damore’s proposition is an attempt to undermine goals sought against systemic discrimination towards women, when Damore clearly stated the proposition is an attempt to explain the gender gap while also adding his view of affirmative action policies as ‘discriminatory’. Framing it as ‘undermining goals sought against discrimination’ is a matter of perspective. If your perspective entails perceiving criticism levied at affirmative action policies as a ‘pro-discrimination’ or ‘against anti-discrimination’ stance, then you will view Damore’s memo as ‘undermining goals sought against discrimination’. However, if your perspective does not entail perceiving criticism levied at affirmative action policies as neither necessarily pro-discrimination nor anti-discrimination, then you wouldn’t consider Damore’s explanation of the gender gap as an attempt to undermine such goals. The latter perspective is more neutral than the former. If Damore doesn’t have a malicious intention to keep the representation of women low or unequal to that of men in tech, then the former perspective shouldn’t be implied to the reader that Damore is trying to ‘undermine goals sought against discrimination’. From a more neutral perspective, he appears to be proposing an alternative means to combat the gender gap, not undermine the means to combat discrimination. Also, it’s a weak interpretation to state the memo implies women are biologically a certain way and that there’s ‘nothing that can be done about that’ if the memo essentially sought to bridge the gender gap, which tacitly shows the memo argues something can be done about that. Hence, I would edit this paragraph to state:

“Damore clarifies many of these differences “are small and there’s significant overlap” and goes on to argue that these differences have an unequal outcome effect on the gender gap.”

“Likewise, these findings are true in only the most banal sense, ignoring that much of scientific literature has recognized that there is a difference between genders but has downplayed their significance overall.[12]”

This sentence should be removed as it does not provide any extra information other than rephrasing the claim that the differences between genders “are small and there’s significant overlap” – so there’s no need to repeat that.

“Also, Damore ignores the nature versus nurture problem, as there was also a survey of genders across races, in which the results between white and Asian respondents differed dramatically.[7][8][9][10][11][12] Perhaps then it is not surprising that he would find good company amongst the alt-right.”

I am confused about this paragraph. What survey of genders is being referred to? The references are the same references cited earlier concerning trait personality gender differences. And what does this have to do with the alt-right? I think this paragraph requires some more explanation.

“It gives sweeping generalizations of "the Left" and "the Right" as if those two are some hive mind entities at polar opposites, such as assuming the Left loves to protect the weak and gives protections for women,[1]:2 but has a double standard for men which the memo remarks the idea that men as "biologically dispensable".”

The description of the left and right by the memo is not a ‘sweeping generalization’ because these differences are supported by the scientific literature and thus they’re a useful description when trying to provide a framework to base an argument. If you don’t believe me, then here are a few references on personality and politics, which do not contradict the memo’s description of the left and right:

So I would clarify with references where the memo derives its description of left and right differences and biases.

“Although it has been claimed that much of the data in the memo is "suspect, outdated or has other problems",[17]”

I argue the viewpoint of the article by ref. 17 (Recode article) should not be mentioned nor referenced because the article doesn’t adequately address the memo’s proposition. In fact, the Recode article strawmans the memo:

“A Google engineer who was fired for posting an online claim that women’s biology makes them less able than men to work in technology jobs”

The memo never claimed “biology makes [women] less able than men to work in technology jobs”. The memo claimed biology is in part a cause to the gender gap, or as the memo puts it, “Differences in distributions of traits between men and women may in part explain why we don’t have 50% representation of women in tech and leadership.” So the article strawmans the memo from the beginning. Not only that, the article makes inaccurate claims concerning the scientific literature:

“But Baron-Cohen’s study had major problems. It was an “outlier” study. No one else has replicated these findings, including Baron-Cohen himself. It is so flawed as to be almost meaningless.”

This is wrong. Several studies indicate behavioral effects induced by pre-natal androgen balances. This study in 1992 suggested similar conclusions Baron-Cohen made prior to Baron-Cohen’s research:

This one from 2011:

Here’s another from 2016, just a year before the Google memo controversy:'_responses_to_information_indicating_gender-appropriate_behaviour

These findings don’t contradict Baron-Cohen’s body of work concluding fetal testosterone predicts sexually differentiated childhood behavior in girls and in boys:

So the Recode article is misinformed. If you can’t address the memo’s proposition without strawmming it nor report on the science properly, then you shouldn’t have a place on RW as a reference. Also, the Recode article stated the memo’s references were “suspect, outdated or has other problems” when that directly contradicts previous statements made on this RW article where it states the scientific claims used by the memo were “well-established in the scientific literature” and “all but two of the scientific articles cited in the memo belong to journals ranked in the first quartile of their fields” – that is in no way compatible with calling it ‘suspect, outdated or...other problems’.

“The issue within the memo, however, is how Damore interprets the results of the studies.”

This is wrong. Damore interpreted the results of the studies he referenced just fine, and this is confirmed by many scientists including David P. Schmitt. The issue with the memo is the attempt at explaining the gender gap in tech using biological differences and the argument against affirmative action policies. The reason why this is an issue is because some people believe the gender gap in tech is mostly a consequence of discrimination or socialization of females to not pursue tech-related careers, and to argue the gender gap to be caused by something else, especially something more ‘innate’ like biology, is regarded as a means to belittle the significance and effect of discrimination or socialization, or worse, a means to justify and promote discrimination. Arguing against affirmative action policies are also an issue if you regard them as a relevant means to combat discrimination. So instead of saying the issue is with how Damore interprets the results of the studies, which is wrong, the sentence should instead say something like:

“The issues and concerns people raise about the memo is its claim of the gender gap being caused by biological factors and its argument against affirmative action policies.” --Moobnert (talk) 15:24, 24 May 2018 (UTC)

Let's hope this goes more smoothly this time. I like doing this despite our earlier spat and I hope this both defuses the tensions and gives anyone else who weighs in a good idea on where to go on.
1. The alt-right: He casually chatted with them after being fired and has refused to rebuke them to the extent they deserve given who they are. I don't think that he is actually alt-right, but he is far more friendly with them than anyone should be, and he made weird statements about the KKK. You're essentially demanding that we ignore an elephant in the room despite all the red flags that should be going up on anyone's radar to the point that we give him credit for what little he gets right at the expense of ignoring everything he gets wrong. It gets worse when he cites Warren Ferrell, who has said that date rape used to be playing hard to get, brain-dead "journalism" like the New York Post and an anti-feminist like Christina Hoff Sommers who thinks that boob and ass grabbing in the workplace isn't the same as rape so people like Al Franken should be forgiven. Trying to deny an agenda here is ridiculous.
2. The premise of women being suited to the workplace vs the premise of biological differences cause gender differences: He may claim that he wants equality and that the differences are "minor," but he immediately steps back and resorts to stereotypes of women being neurotic and needing part-time work to function in the tech environment as opposed to full-time work. You're assuming that we must take his words at face value and never question his intentions, even though he contradicted himself already in his memo. Which brings me onto...
3. Damore's REAL intentions: Affirmative action being discriminatory is not a matter of "perspective," the same way his policies trying to help women aren't merely a matter of "perspective." Trying to say that they are is flat out bollocks and should be ridiculed as such, especially when he compares race and gender programs to trying to get the number of women in prison on par with men. People of different races and gender ARE underrepresented at Google, and trying to fix that is being a decent human being. But his solutions explicitly involve treating women differently than men for some arbitrary definition of equality in tech which is practically rules lawyering when it upholds cliches of neurotic women who need to be with people and given more time off because they can't succeed in the same roles as men, instead of actual equality that cuts past discrimination. The only way you can see otherwise is making a bunch of stereotypes about other races/genders to begin with. And that's what Damore does, arguing that the differences between the genders are minor, but oh, there's enough of a difference that we have to treat women differently and realize they won't reach equal representation in tech the same as men. This wiki doesn't have to be insanely liberal as you frequently accuse it of being to nip bad reasoning and discriminatory nonsense in the bud at the first opportunity.
4. Banal findings: It's important because he's misrepresenting the data and blowing it the biology to be larger than it actually is. People need to understand this isn't the "scientific and objective" memo that it thinks it is. There's no need to give him mercy in the interests of neutrality.
5. Some of the studies surveying genders quoted by Damore also surveyed races, which showed a disparity between them and the impact of culture as opposed to biology and the difficulty in obtaining any meaningful info from that. Yeah, there is a definite nature/nurture problem here and that alone throws off a good deal of the "findings" in his memo.
6. The left and the right: I already looked at a couple of those studies. The first one was talking about Big Five personality traits as opposed to any of the stereotypes Damore listed. It even admitted that it remained agnostic about some of the conclusions it reached, as a respect for social cohesion could easily go either way to maintaining the status quo while alienating gay marriage or flat out allow gay marriage to help others because that is also a definition of social cohesion. It also said that race and culture allowed for the same Big Five traits in blacks that were represented differently in whites. So there's another problem. The second and third articles aren't even available. I tried getting into an account with ResearchGate, but as soon as I said that I was just a nobody who liked research, it just redirected me to the search bar. Even requesting the text requires me to prove my credentials. So I don't know where you're going with this, but even from the abstracts, they just talked about Big Five traits as opposed to anything Damore said.
Another problem that you didn't list is Damore's commentary on the end of it. That a more left company would be far too trusting of it's competitors and being ashamed of it's core business (that latter one really gets me), while the one to the right would be overly hierarchical and untrusting of others. Yeah, these are some of the most cliche traits one can think of.
7: Recode article: Why not try debunking the article itself instead of throwing it away? It has actual science that disagrees with him and you're going to get rid of it just like that. Besides, that's not the only article that has taken issue with Damore's findings. Actual scientists he quoted have stepped up and publicly denounced his findings.
re: the Baron-Cohen article. Again, lots of the studies that supposedly agree with them are inaccessible. Definitely not gonna buy a book just for the sake of this argument either. That's not cool at all using what are essentially dead links as backing for your argument. Not to mention, some of the abstracts on the people vs things bit don't go into detail about their findings, about how well they agree with Baron-Cohen or Damore's premises in general. I still think Damore is twisting it out of proportion, like saying exercise is good, so let's go all the way and promote roids. It's funny you want to eliminate leftist bias and create scientific objectivity but flinch or outright ignore at anything contradicting the narrative you're presenting. Especially when it tends to be actual science. Getting rid of the Recode article based on such flimsy reasons is flat out ridiculous. Besides, the article said the data he uses is suspect, not the references themselves. There is absolutely no reason to take it down.
The other thing is, that it's hard to nearly impossible to extrapolate any solid conclusions from the people vs things dichotomy for this current context of the workplace discussion when supposed differences have been already said to be minor at best and as we'll see in the next point...
8: Damore didn't misrepresent science: Yeah he did. You already brought up Schmitt on this talk page earlier, and he actually said that Damore's findings that attempt to evaluate the totality of personality based on gender alone were like using an axe to operate on someone, saying that applying cross-cultural differences to the Google workplace isn't effective at all. Nevermind that Schmitt supports affirmative action policies and admits that there are definite socioeconomic barriers to women in tech, only conceding to discussion of biology in the workplace under the right context (as you know racists and sexists can and will try and hijack that conversation) but you're still willing to try and make that about "perspective," yet on everything related to Damore, you refuse to relent and chalk up the criticism to leftist bias. This isn't a matter of opinion, and you trying to argue that discrimination isn't as systemic as people think just because, as if the notion is absurd in itself while ignoring all the intellectual landmines that Damore has stepped on, to say nothing of how you meet every substantial challenge and salient point by parroting the same tired debunked arguments again ad nauseum is more frustrating than anything. James Earl Cash (talk) 23:02, 24 May 2018 (UTC)
How do you know science was misrepresented? I have found a number of statements by real scientists stating Damore is more or less correct in the main. If other scientists agree with you, then it is debatable and not settled as you seem to insist. Why should anyone depend on your opinion then?Ariel31459 (talk) 17:30, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
Fer cryin out loud...
First of all, there are a number of scientific articles on the main page that say, yes, he misrepresented the science and I'm not going to do a PRATT thing with this because you being deliberately obtuse for the nth time is just tiresome. The other thing is the scientists in that Quillette article don't exactly verify Damore. The first scientist Jussim compared being called a racial slur back in the 60s to being called a bigot in the present day and said they're the same thing. That isn't exactly helping. Nevermind that he admits he actually doesn't know if Damore is right about the Google workplace or not and just assumes so simply because the memo got some things right about science, so oh, the rest is probably true as well! That is something that is far from a resounding commendation in the slightest! Besides that, he also co-authored a bullshit racist piece with Jonathan Haidt that affirmative is a problem because it's not perfect and it leads to "them damn uppity blacks and Mexicans are having their feelings hurt from microaggressions." This ain't someone I'm looking to take advice from and more likely than not has an agenda.
The other three inclusions being proposed as scientific support of Damore are asinine too. They include the Schmitt guy, whose response has already been covered far too many times already in this talk page. The third guy Miller doesn't even understand why diversity programs are in place and makes the idiotic and inhumane assumption that if everyone is the same, then there's no reason for people to fill quotas of underrepresented people, and veers closely into HBD territory when he outright says that there are probably differences in the brains of various ethnicities, concluding that Damore is right because everyone can't be equal so let's promote some outdated policies that sort people and ironically enough make them more distant than ever. Soh doesn't bother to give any credence to the thing besides blindly agreeing with it, while ignoring Damore's idiotic recommendations to fix inequality, which let's be honest, are the real reason that everyone took up arms against him in the first place.
Then again, you never miss a chance to concern troll and derail the conversation as much as possible when the evidence against you is insurmountable. Using a piece from a shithole like Quillette is the nail in the coffin. James Earl Cash (talk) 22:48, 25 May 2018 (UTC)
There are many scientists who comment that Damore is about right. Your response: they can't be trusted. Why? That's up to you. It doesn't matter to everyone else. Steven Pinker is another scientist who does not think Damore is very wrong on the science. I claim that it all seems debatable. Certainly a software engineer isn't going to please you with his bedside manner. Why is that a problem for you? You can believe what you like. I Just wouldn't call it science.The kind of consensus as exists among scientists for climate change does not exist among scientists on this topic.Ariel31459 (talk) 00:25, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
This isn't some both sides issue where the answer is some cliche middle ground. Every single scientific article that I've seen "support" Damore don't comment on his outlandish policies about emphasizing part-time work as opposed to full time work or his agenda against anti-discrimination policies, a man who is suing Google for "viewpoint discrimination." They comment on the science, which everyone admits is true, just with the caveat that the differences are minor. Damore's insistences otherwise to the level that he'll recommend shutting down anti-discrimination policies and thinks we need to have archaic gender role stuff is misrepresenting the science right there! That is what people are taking issue with. Not his findings, but the lengths he thinks people need to go with those findings. And that link is just something that chastises Pichai for surrendering to the mob, whatever that means. Figures that your latest link involving a scientist like Pinker doesn't give an opinion worth any weight. Here's another link I intend to add to the main piece. Let's recommend women have pair work because they have an interest in people vs things huh? Even though working together is a standard requirement of tech jobs? Damore is full of shit.
PS. Steven Pinker is a fucking idiot. He downplays all of the ills of the world every time and for someone who recommends enlightenment virtues, explicitly targets intellectuals for rightly perceiving the problems of today, because that's not cool maaaaaaaaaan. Not a surprise then that he would refuse to take any actively political role and instead say something that would refuse to offend anyone while serving his public persona. James Earl Cash (talk) 01:34, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
Now that says it all. Perhaps video games is your thing? You would get to shoot imaginary villains over and over.Ariel31459 (talk) 01:42, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
This is the man whom our intelligent friend thinks is a "fucking idiot": Currently Johnstone Family Professor in the Department of Psychology at Harvard University, taught at Stanford and MIT, directed the Center for Cognitive Neuroscience. Won the Troland Prize from NAS and prizes from the Royal Institution of Great Britain, the American Psychological Association, the Association for Psychological Science, and the Cognitive Neuroscience Society. Received several teaching awards, and numerous prizes for his nine books, including The Language Instinct, How the Mind Works, Words and Rules, The Blank Slate, The Better Angels of Our Nature, and The Sense of Style. He has been a Pulitzer Prize finalist twice, Humanist of the Year, and one of Foreign Policy’s “World’s Top 100 Public Intellectuals” and one of Time’s “100 Most Influential People in the World Today.” — Unsigned, by: Ariel31459 / talk / contribs

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Apropos of @Ariel31459, it would be best to avoid ad hominem attacks and be more specific about your criticisms of Pinker, @James Earl Cash. Credentials don't make a person right, but they should generally be a good reason to pay attention to them at least. Bongolian (talk) 18:07, 26 May 2018 (UTC)

More than anything, I take issue with Ariel using Pinker in this debate when he's barely relevant.
This is gonna be on my soapbox, so feel free to skip as again, we are getting into vastly different territory than Damore and the memo, but re: Pinker's success? Sorry, but I'm not willing to give any credence to a man who says, "Things today are just so GREAT!" to the point that he'll downplay the severity of climate change, colonialism, the fact that there are more slaves today than any other point in history, how humanity today is running off other species at an alarming rate, the rise of dictators and wannabe dictators worldwide and how when confronted, becomes ridiculously anti-intellectual despite being a product of the academy. Those awards mean nothing when faced with such flaws, especially in light of his shoddy defenses against said criticisms. Nor am I willing to kowtow to a bunch of name dropping. The politics of these insitutions favors certain people no matter who actually works hardest, and that's especially more evident in the case of the Ivy League and others. You don't ever hear about amazing professors at podunk universities nobody has ever heard of, you pay attention to the big names in the highest corners, and I'm willing to bet Pinker with all his fame and the institutional support that insulates his reputation on a daily basis has coasted on the success of the adjunct professors and interns under him more than once, at his best giving them credit, but certainly not with the same glory he takes for himself. After awhile it becomes practically taboo to criticize such people while they can be free to collect future success without any substantial talk to the contrary whether it's slander or actually a critique of merit that would upend said famous person. MLK's message taught today is a watered down abomination of what he actually believed and taught but he's more popular than ever, this fake message shutting down the truth of his legacy. But when he was alive, preaching his real message and fighting off inequality? He wasn't so popular back then. Look at the meat, not the gravy.
If anything, all of Pinker's awards, especially in the context of one man who takes so much prestige for himself and his reputation built as such, are more of a red flag than proof he's worth listening to. Certainly when used as something to try and excuse his failures. It's akin to saying that Jordan Peterson should be forgiven for his h-index score, ignoring his quite frankly bizarre dissertation, how his psychology tests when used in the courtroom were found to be an embarrassment and thrown out, and all his absolutely fun activities in the present day.
And Ariel, sign your posts. James Earl Cash (talk) 18:54, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
This has been quite an episode of homespun soapbox equivocation. If you want to contradict and defame any distinguished scientist who holds a view inconsistent with your own, you can do so. Just don't expect to be taken seriously by serious people. As for Peterson, I do not believe he could do anything that you would find agreeable. This is not Peterson's talk page. Why not try to focus on one idea at a time?Ariel31459 (talk) 22:09, 26 May 2018 (UTC)
You are truly lost, aren't you? James Earl Cash (talk) 03:30, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
The only one here who has lost the plot is not me.Ariel31459 (talk) 04:07, 27 May 2018 (UTC)
For the record, I think you're really dense, Ariel. I prolly shouldn't insult but that James Earl Cash has thoroughly explained why he doesn't like Pinker and you just resort to "how dare you insult an authority figure with 'prestige'", it's really hard not to be frustrated at this point. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:59, 28 May 2018 (UTC)