Talk:Kopi luwak

This page should be moved to Kopi luwak. Kopi is BI for coffee and luwak BI for civet. Luwak is not a proper noun. Any dissenters? --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 08:22, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

You are correct. Bongolian (talk) 08:29, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Fry

Stephen Fry gave some to Chas Windsor some time ago. For a wedding present if I recall aright. Not sure which wedding though. Scream!! (talk) 13:31, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Your point being...? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 15:47, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

No point - just gossip. Scream!! (talk) 15:54, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Well... Good we had a chat about it than... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 15:57, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

"then" 142.124.55.236 (talk) 16:11, 24 August 42015 AQD (UTC)

I shall henceforth spell it "thaen".... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 16:14, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Did it come in a basket next to the red-cockroach-pasta-sauce and the Sardinian-maggot-cheese? ShabiDOO 22:33, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

You'll probably get it right more often by just using "then" all the time. "More/less than" is only one of many phrases used for comparisons, after all, and the "than" part is often left out since the context often already makes clear what something is being compared with. 142.124.55.236 (talk) 12:54, 25 August 42015 AQD (UTC)

How does this relate to the site's mission?

I'm not sure how this relates to the mission. There don't seem to be any details about any woo associated with the beverage, which would make it topical. The article says that it's mean to civets to make the stuff, but they aren't an endangered species as far as I can learn, and they're some kind of weird mongoose-raccoon-rat hybrid anyways, and don't make good pets. So boo hoo hoo. And yes, making it sounds like nasty work farmed out to brown people in distant lands; then again so are your computer chips. - Smerdis of Tlön, ^{LOAD "*", 8, 1.} 03:59, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

There's an implication in the page's text that it's a panacea, which by itself implies woo. The problem is there is no reference for this. Bongolian (talk) 04:10, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

It was endorsed by Oprah. Is that not enough? :) . There is all sorts of anti-oxidant woo peddled by those selling it. I imagine references for this would not be hard to find. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 04:14, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

just found all of this for example. It will not be hard to get this article right on-mission. (sic)

1. Protect the teeth, which is famous for its coffee and caffeine-stick according to research to protect teeth from bacteria that cause cavities, besides drinking a cup of civet coffee every day is also able to prevent the occurrence of oral cancer.

2. According to a study "The Journal of Nutrition": civet coffee 3 cups a day can prevent breast cancer, especially for women who are approaching menopause are very prone to get breast cancer.

3. Protecting the skin, benefits Luwak coffee is famous for its usefulness is also able to protect the skin from skin cancer disease, according to research by drinking two cups of kopi luwak can reduce the risk of skin cancer up to 17%. This is good news for you who love to sunbathe on Kuta beach, Bali or at Bondi beach in Sydney.

4. Kopi Luwak can prevent diabetes. This deadly disease is greatly feared, many people who become victims. Apparently there is no drug that can cure diabetes officially, but we still were able to prevent diabetes, that is by utilizing civet coffee 2-3 cups every day.

5. Kopi Luwak can prevent neurological diseases, because the antioxidants and caffeine contained in coffee can prevent Parkinson's. Besides caffeine contained in coffee Luwak was also able to inhibit inflammation in the brain, which can cause neurological disorders or neurological diseases.

6. Prevent gallstone disease. Cholesterol crystals trapped within the gallbladder, which can be overcome by caffeine, because caffeine has a non-stick substance, so mucus crystals will not precipitate in the bile. To obtain these substances in caffeine luwak coffee rich in caffeine, then you need to drink 2-3 cups of kopi luwak every day to get the benefits of civet coffee perfectly. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 04:22, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd say given that Kopi Luwak is basically woo-soup, it will probably rather easy to establish a missionality rationale for the article ;-) Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 12:47, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

It's poo-woo-soup I will have you know :) --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 12:54, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Of course. Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 13:13, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

My two cents: If we can actually source any and all alternative medicine/pseudoscience statements relating to this particular poo-brew, then it's clearly on mission. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 13:17, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

The article clearly mentions that people peddle kopi luwak as a "cure all". If details are necesary...then just ask for them. It's never a bad idea to fully read out an article before claiming its completely off mission...especially when it's raised with drama flaring, time wasting, acidic snark. ShabiDOO 13:19, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Good work User:Shabidoo and thank you. --TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 13:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

At least some of the claims would appear to apply to coffee generally; this particular kind just has exoticism going for it, like the shampoos with ylang-ylang and so forth. The PETA style handwringing is rather smug and aggressive and does the article no favors. - Smerdis of Tlön, ^{LOAD "*", 8, 1.} 14:57, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I don't care about the animals being abused, I care about abused humans first and foremost. That being said, we might consider a page on coffee woo as there is a lot of pseudoscience out there for people to justify their "habit" Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 15:10, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

To a certain degree, any domestication of animals is animal abuse, but since it serves to provide humans with food, clothing and other materials from the animal, it is only justified, if it really does help the lives of humans enough. So on that grounds, I do approve of mass farming and similar, but I do not approve of hunting, when the hunter does not use the skin and the meat of the animal or hunts the animal with needless cruelty, I disapprove of these fucking bullfighting Spain and a coupla other countries are famous infamous for, I disapprove letting animals fight each other for some jackasses to watch and bet on the results (only animal races are... mostly OK, since they take extra care, that the animals ain't harmed, since only a healthy animal runs fast (at least that is my assumption, correct me, if it's horseshit), but any kind of doping or similar must be completely banned) and, finally, I disapprove of the bullshit described on this page, since it is completely needless cruelty to the cevits and the coffee produced by this idiocy tastes, according to coffee experts, like shit!--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ ∈)☼(∋ 16:21, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I reside in Indonesia and have for 20 years now. Kopi luwak is a large scam. Hell, I even have shady dudes trying to sell it to me for one establishment I own. The article section contrasting the flowery western positioning of the foul product with both the hellish worker conditions and even more hellish animal farming is valid I think. You don't need to be a PETA-freak to know that animal farming conditions are a valid issue. I had another read and do not think it is too smug. And another vote for coffee woo - good call Avenger.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 15:23, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I can't help but admire anybody who persuaded people to pay handsome prices for coffee beans that had been excreted in mongoose-rat droppings. Domestication's a deal with the Darwinian devil; civets that live in human cages and force fed coffee fruits are being fed and bred, and it's going to be pretty much impossible for anyone to persuade me to feel sorry for them. Different cultures are entitled to have different ideas about appropriate treatment of animals. At least we're not cutting off their glands to make perfume, which apparently is the other thing civets are good for. - Smerdis of Tlön, ^{LOAD "*", 8, 1.} 17:05, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

The animal abuse issue wouldn't need be emphasised if this coffee wasn't presented as some magical spiritual ancient product that comes from being one with nature and animals. The point of all our articles is to dispel myths which include describing how woo-junk is actually made and what it actually does (in this case by torturing animals and virtual slave labour, fabricating health claims and charging rich people a fortune(. That is the opposite of the claims made: free animals in the wild, empowered workers and cancer cures.

And no...you cannot compare slave labour making computer chips vs slave labour making kopi luwak. Computer chips are actually useful while this coffee is not (and potentially dangerous). Also...no one other than Thomas Friedman paints the tech industry as empowering to cheap Asian labourers (perhaps in those rare nice factories) ... while those in the Kopi Luwak industry do (they claim that this industry has helped empower locals when in reality it is slum work). The slave labour is relevant (as with animal torture) as this article is dispelling those claims. ShabiDOO 21:11, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Is there somebody who knows enough about coffee woo to make an article about it? Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:20, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd be happy to write an article on coffee-woo. I know little about coffee-woo or coffee production myths (like fair trade coffee) but I'd enjoy researching it and writing on it. Would be happy to colaborate if anyone is interested :) ShabiDOO 21:45, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

I volunteer for copy-editing, general snark and the perspective of a non-addict Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 21:49, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

And I will happily try to give some addict perspective.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 00:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Smerdis of Tlön - I am not sure how your lack of empathy is really relevant to the article?--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 00:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Smerdis hasn't shown a "lack of empathy", he simply disagrees with you about the relative weight of evolutionary pros and cons of domestication in this instance. His points aren't that any (mis)treatment of animals is just dandy and if anything he shows quite a lot of empathy in the area of realising the cultural aspects at play. I think Shabidoo's answer was pretty good, though. The sanctimonious "one with nature and animals" makes the conditions these animals are kept under a pretty relevant topic. Looking forward to reading about (other) coffee woo, btw. I simply drink the stuff because I happen to (have come to) like the taste of it or because I'm in the need of the caffeine. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

The way most people consume their coffee seems to indicate to me that they can't actually stand the taste of it Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 10:39, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I certainly ain't most, but depends on the time of day. Thick black shots in the morning and a milky latte with lunch. Never any sugar.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 12:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

I will admit that I dislike the attempt at moral blackmail inherent in animal-rightsery. That said, if this coffee is being promoted as being somehow at one with nature it may be relevant. - Smerdis of Tlön, ^{LOAD "*", 8, 1.} 12:23, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

@Avengerofthe BoN: Well, I've had some pretty horrific coffee too, of course, but if I make a face when drinking coffee it's usually because it's too hot or cold.... From what I've seen people generally enjoy their joe and getting bad coffee is something that can really spoil an occasion (or at least it's something that'll be remembered and remarked upon afterwards). Now there are obviously quite differing opinions of what actually constitutes "good coffee" (personally, I like it black, rich and strong) and some people don't have much of a preference, but one of the main problems with "bad coffee" (beyond the raw ingredients) is the need to keep coffee brewing implements scrupulously clean. Remains from a previous brew (yes, including the stainings on the filter holder and on the top of the coffee pot if using a drip brewer) risks making the coffee taste bitter, as will "burnt" coffee that has been kept on a hotplate for too long (often referred to among my friends and acquaintances as "tar coffee"). That's the kind of coffee you only drink if you really need the caffeine and have no alternatives. For a good cup of "ordinary" (i.e. not espresso or similar) coffee, I prefer freshly ground beans, typically Kenyan, Ethiopian or Indian (as in the subcontinent - not native American), and a French press (caffetierre). No milk or sugar, please - although I'll happily provide them for others. If you have to put stuff in coffee, I'd rather make it Irish, Mexican (substitutes the whiskey for Kahlua and tequila) or even a "Pharisee" (a German/Danish variant substituting the whiskey for rum) - or go non-alcoholic and mix in some hot chocolate and whipped cream (yum!). ScepticWombat (talk) 12:58, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Caffetierre is my preferred prep also. Sumatran arabica is my preferred bean. Love the Ethiopian also but impossible to get where I live.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 13:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Interestingly enough many people claim to like a "rich dark roast" in polls, but when you actually observe their voting with their mouths, most seem to prefer the precise opposite. And while I am not going to deny that some people do indeed drink coffee because they genuinely enjoy the taste, I guess the fact that it contains caffeine and constitutes an important ritual - one without which office culture would be quite different - may account for a lot of the consumption as well. But drinking coffee has been more than the mere act of ingesting a certain drug/beverage from the time the enlightenment made it their signature drink. Interestingly enough the common morning drink in most of Europe prior to the rise of coffee was a mildly alcoholic beer soup. Of course replacing a permanent state of slight drunkenness with a permanent state of slightly heightened alertness and awareness was a propaganda opportunity too good to be passed over by the enlightenment... Avengerofthe BoN (talk) 14:28, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I will freely admit that it is mixture of loveliness, ritual and caffeine buzz for me. I genuinely do really love the taste of quality coffee. Ritual is very important too. For example, I don't leave the house in the morning without having downed coffee. The actual effects of caffeine are of less importance than they were, as I seem to be increasingly immune.--TheroadtoWiganPier (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

While I do enjoy a good cup of coffee and my preference of style was based on actually trying different regional variants and settling on the strongest/richest, if still medium roasted, ones (I typically have to dial down the strength when brewing for others), I don't have a problem with going days or even weeks completely without coffee and have done so several times. If only bad coffee is available, I'd rather go without (again, unless I really need to stay awake or something). Actually, I haven't had any coffee today, come to think of it (it's about 18:00 where I am), and not because of any conscious decision either - oh well, I might grab a cup this evening if I feel like it. ScepticWombat (talk) 15:51, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I don't like extremely roasted coffee. One reason I avoid Starbucks; their coffee tastes burnt to me. Give me 8 O'Clock or Maxwell House or some other traditional American breakfast blend, lightly roasted and with a fairly strong component of robusta. The other coffee I regularly get is Cafe Bustelo, mostly because it makes great cold coffee with just ice. I brew a pot, drink what I want of it hot, then drink the rest cold the next day. - Smerdis of Tlön, ^{LOAD "*", 8, 1.} 16:46, 26 August 2015 (UTC)