Talk:List of countries where Holocaust denial is legal

Canada

It's complicated--while Holocaust denial as such is not illegal, it has been persecuted in terms of hate crimes/hate speech, as in the cases of Ernst Zundel and Jim Keegstra Amin7b5 03:09, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

The Canadian Supreme Court has acquitted Zündel twice. Keegstra was convicted, but he did not stop at denying the Holocaust. Therefore, Holocaust denial is legal in Canada. /Strom 15:59, 4 June 2009 (UTC)

Kosovo/Montenegro

What about Kosovo and Montegro? I suspect that it's legal in those countries as well, but I can't find any sources. --195.240.170.18 (talk) 11:29, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

This page is a bit silly

Do you know for a fact that Holocaust denial is legal in all of these countries? I'd suggest, for example, that in practice it is probably illegal in North Korea — in North Korea it is illegal to express any opinions the government dislikes, and while I have no specific information on whether they'd like or dislike Holocaust denial, the fact that they are Communists in the old style suggests they'd dislike it (Communism = Good, Nazism = Bad, the Holocaust serves them as evidence for that.)

Likewise, in a number of these countries, which lack any Western notions of free speech, you are not legally allowed to say anything the government disagrees with. If no one has ever denied the Holocaust in them, with sufficient profile to receive government attention, the government may have never taken any specific actions against Holocaust denial, but that doesn't mean it would not do so if the issue came up.

Of course, there are some countries, which lack free speech in general, but in which Holocaust denial is supported by official state ideology (Iran, Saudi Arabia), so you can't simply assume that lack of free speech in general implies a ban on Holocaust denial. But nor can you simply assume, that in all countries which lack explicit laws against Holocaust denial, or a specific record of prosecuting Holocaust deniers, that Holocaust denial is therefore legal in them. (((Zack Martin)))^™ 05:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Not to mention that some of these are not actually countries (Svalbard, etc.). ListenerX^TalkerX 05:28, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

A better name for what this might be is List of countries and dependent territories.

But it seems obvious to me what has happened here — someone has taken a list of all countries and dependent territories in the world, crossed out the ones in which they knew for a fact that Holocaust denial is illegal, and then made the unwarranted assumption it must be legal in the rest of them. Since it's not based on any actual knowledge, it should be deleted, or at the very least cut back to only listing those countries/territories where we have positive evidence that Holocaust denial is legal. (((Zack Martin)))^™ 05:34, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

If there are no laws against it, then it is technically legal. Outside the culturally-Christian world, the Holocaust is not quite so prominent a feature of discussion, so we cannot automatically assume that any country there without free speech disallows it.

As to communism, the "old style" hard-liners' real beef with the Nazis was not their penchant for murdering enemies of the state (a practice in which said hard-liners freely indulged), but their nationalism. The Kim family dictatorship in North Korea, by contrast, is an aggressive practitioner of nationalism. ListenerX^TalkerX 05:45, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

we cannot automatically assume that any country there without free speech disallows it – nor can we assume that in any country without specific laws against it, it is permitted. We need to examine each country on a case by case basis, which is something this article doesn't do.

As to Communism-vs-Nazism, I don't think the real dispute over murdering their enemies (something both sides engaged in), or even nationalism – Stalin increasingly turned to nationalism to bind together the Soviet Union and to support morale in the War. I think in the end, the real dispute between Communism and Nazism came down to who's on who's side, rather than any deep ideological disagreement.

If there are no laws against it, then it is technically legal – in some countries, the laws are so broadly worded, that anything and everything is illegal, if the powers that be feel like. The question of legality then becomes, the question of how the powers that be feel about it. (Communist countries even had a name for this phenomenon – "socialist legality").

But anyway, we can speculate all we want about North Korea's attitude to Holocaust denial, but the point is, none of us know for a fact what it is, so we shouldn't be listing it on such a list until someone comes along with concrete information on the topic. (((Zack Martin)))^™ 05:56, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

If the page is 'silly,' shouldn't it be in 'fun'? Eye on the ICR ^{talk, or type, or whatever...} 06:21, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, I suppose you could move it to fun. Doesn't seem very fun to me, but if you want to enfun it, I have no objections. (((Zack Martin)))^™ 06:23, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

It seems to be a bit like the List of scientifically controlled double blind studies which have conclusively demonstrated the efficacy of homeopathy... (although that's not in Fun, but then it is better researched) Eye on the ICR ^{talk, or type, or whatever...} 09:00, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Well, you'd think if someone had done such a study, we would surely have heard about it? On the other hand, who is keeping careful track of the laws on Holocaust denial of every country and territory in the world? Two different kettles of fish... (((Zack Martin)))^™ 09:08, 4 September 2011 (UTC)

Congrats to whatever clown researched this...

So a mere ten seconds on Google indicated that Australian courts have regarded holocaust denial as hate speech under the Racial Vilification Act since 2002. As that is equivalent to the situation in the Netherlands, that gets it off this list.

I wonder how many other countries have not been properly researched? VOX^HUMANA 10:48, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

I don't think the editor who called this page "silly" has even tried to make a case - his/her comments are obviously irrelevant to this criticism. Indeed, they don't relate to the issue of laws in different nations regarding "holocaust denial". Which is not a "silly" topic at all. Issues of the denial of free speech -in this case pertaining to an alleged historical occurrence of massive significance -is far from silly: indeed, it central to a conflict over western democratic values, that have been compromised by what is clearly a very dangerous fifth column in western nations - Zionist extremism... ^{— Unsigned, by: Some random Nazi BoN / talk / contribs}

"Holocaust deniers complain about their bullshit being outlawed in several countries." Plus an unsigned gets the tag "Some random Nazi BoN"? How does rationalwiki live up to it's name with a biased article like this? Labeling "Zionist extremism" isn't even bigotry. If you have a problem understanding that, you don't deserve to call this site rational. YoureNotVeryRational (talk) 17:17, 10 June 2018 (UTC)

Some entries are silly

Jan Mayen? A volcanic island with no permanent residents? Ditto South Georgia (although at least some people have been born there) ?Akoroti? A British military base? Falkland islands... that hotbed of Holocaust denial... with a population of >4 thousand?

The best one is Bouvet Island. It's completely uninhabited. I don't even think there's ever been a Jan Mayen style base there.

Anyway, this is a free speech issue. It may be disgusting, but in most countries one's allowed objectionable opinions. It's the price of freedom.-Albannach (talk) 10:55, 13 March 2013 (UTC)

Russia

From May 5th 2014 it has been unlawful in Russia. The list needs amending please. ^{— Unsigned, by: 82.28.49.253 / talk / contribs (signed by bot)} 01:24, 01 December 2014 (UTC)

Why is this noteworthy?

First off anything which is not illegal is, by definition, legal. My (uninformed) guess is that most countries don't have specific laws against Holocaust denial - which would result in a rather long list.

Secondly, we have loads of evidence, indeed, mountains of evidence which demonstrates the actuality of the Holocaust. We have an equally impressive amount of evidence showing that the earth is sphere or is vastly more than 6,000 years old.

But few people (I hope) would want to make "evolution denial" a crime. It's a question of winning the arguments - not of changing the law.--Bob^{"I think you'll find it's more complicated than that."} 16:58, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

To show, just how fucking stupid the canard of the Holocaust deniers being persecuted really is.--Arisboch ☞✍☜☞✉☜ 17:00, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Suggest removing "List of countries where there are no laws" -- again

I am going to suggest removing the detailed "List of countries and territories where there are no laws against Holocaust denial" and replacing it with a simple "Everywhere else" for several good reasons listed above, and also from the practical concern that RatWikians would otherwsie have to update this list every goatdamn time a new country is formed, two countries merge, a country changes names, etc. Also, the list is incomplete (where is Greenland?). CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 15:56, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

greenland is part of denmark. EK (talk) 19:34, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

But so are the Faeroe Islands, and they are on there (or do they have slightly different status?). CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 20:23, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

the faeroes are also part of denmark, tho they do have control of their own international and trade relations unlike greenland. [1] they shouldnt be on the list tho because its a list of "UN Member/Observer states" which they are not EK (talk) 20:33, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

Thank you. This is maybe an example of the problem with the list. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 20:52, 16 September 2019 (UTC)

imo the list is the page so if u delete the list and the page has no function. EK (talk) 18:31, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

It's a fair point. As long as people don't mind cleaning it up sometimes. CogitoNotStirred (via telepathy) (talk) 19:50, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

The question is, in how much of the WHITE world is Holocaust denial illegal

White nationalists are not going to want to move to Africa just to be able to freely deny the Holocaust. The white wolf (talk) 19:26, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

Logical fallacy

The article features the following:

The argument is essentially that "In some places, my opinion would be censored -- ergo, my opinion is correct." This is clearly false, regardless of whether it is ethical to ban Holocaust denial (or hate speech in general). If this logic is true, then conversely the statement "In most places, my opinion would not be censored -- ergo, my opinion is false" would be true (and Holocaust denial would be false).

A statement being true doesn't imply its converse is true. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2600:6c40:6b80:245:79c0:2fed:5d4a:7e98 / talk}

why?

why?-Hastur! (talk) 07:38, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

this article serves no purpose. its dumb joke, like like that list of gods people dont believe that people keep adding to, but finite as there are only so many countries.

its essentially not a list of countries where holocaust denial is legal, its its a list of all countries minus the few the where it is illegal. its a ridiculous waste of spaceAMassiveGay (talk) 22:48, 26 January 2022 (UTC)