RationalWiki:Articles for deletion/Thorwald C. Franke

Thorwald C. Franke | Result: Deleted

Thorwald C. Franke (edit|talk|history|protect|delete|links|watch|logs) – (View log)

Delete

1. Not missional.Owlman (talk) (mail) 20:48, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
2. Too close to uncited for a BLP. Subject actively protests article existence and questions article content; article content is, again, too uncited to be defended. While Atlantis is missional, Franke appears to be a minor actor who does not support non-rational hypotheses. (See eg http://www.atlantis-scout.de/atlanfaq_engl.htm.) Frankly, there is nothing to be gained from having an article on him -- he's not significant or crazy enough, as far as I can tell. 32℉uzzy; 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 21:07, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
3. Saying that Plato's Atlantis could possibly have been based on a real place: That's not a crank idea. That's a perfectly normal, mainstream idea. Saying that just because someone is an expert in Greek mythology doesn't make him or her an expert in Plato's Atlantis: That's not a crank idea. That's a perfectly valid criticism. The reference for Franke having no formal training in history or philosophy links to a page on Franke's own website. So it's not as if he's trying to pass himself off as something he isn't. There aren't any citations to back up the harshest criticisms. He's not a crank. He's just a hobbyist. And, at the end of the day, he's just another nobody with his own website. Spud (talk) 06:53, 1 October 2016 (UTC)
4. I can't find anything particularly interesting in the article -- does he suggest that Atlantis is a real place? Apparently not. Claiming that Atlantis was based on a real place does not make someone a crank.--JorisEnter (talk) 11:09, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

   See my response below. Franke is claiming Atlantis is a real place, not inspired/based on a real place. The number of classicists who argue for this position are an extreme minority. Of course arguing Plato was inspired by a real location when he made up Atlantis as an imaginary place does not make someone a crank - its the consensus among classicists. Virtually all fictional writers are inspired to some extent by real places. LOTR's Middle Earth is even based on real geography, but this doesn't make Mordor real. Franke instead is arguing Atlantis was a real civilization in the central Mediterranean Sea. There are only a handful of classicists who have ever argued this, but Franke isn't a classicist and compared to these fringe academics, Franke's work is of much poorer quality. His work isn't peer reviewed and he's probably using google translator tool when he posts Latin here. His article should be kept but keep the criticism and point out he is a crank.Gorgonite (talk) 12:20, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

5. PBfreespace (talk) 15:46, 2 October 2016 (UTC)
6. DiamondDisc1(talk) 23:25, 4 October 2016 (UTC)

Keep

1. --Castaigne2 (talk) 21:38, 30 September 2016 (UTC)
2. Expand don't delete. I am not the Ombud's man 21:43, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

   I as the "Subject" (hell, you annoy me!) do not vote. But please consider this: Before you can expand this article, you have to heavily improve and to source each of your outraging accusations properly. Which you can't. Still too many false accusations in the article. The whole article will turn out to be a Mission impossible for RationalWiki as long as RationalWiki wants to be rational. By the way, I have seen that your very own Atlantis article does not exclude the possibility of a historical background for Atlantis, in principle: "It is not known if Atlantis was a fanciful invention on Plato's part, or if stories about it were based on real events that may have happened in the Mediterranean Sea". This whole adventure becomes quite interesting. A Pyrrhus victory is, when Pyrrhus is victorious but the Romans win. Draco dormiens numquam titillandus. Kai ho sophos oute biazei oute biazetai. Hoti men hymeis, o Andres Athenaioi ... --Thorwald C. Franke (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

   Mr Franke, it's really ok. IF kept, we'll be happy to source it. --Castaigne2 (talk) 22:22, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

   Did he really just quote the motto of Hogwarts (never tickle a sleeping dragon) in the original Latin? I am not the Ombud's man 22:26, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

3. As has been explained many times to Franke, the idea Plato invented Atlantis (as fiction) but was inspired by real events/locations is not controversial; its the orthodox view among classicists. Fictional writers inspired by real events/locations does not make them real. The imaginary Gotham city was based on New York, but this doesn't make it New York. Franke's position on Atlantis is fringe - he is claiming Atlantis was a real place, not that Plato made up the story and was inspired by a real event/location. A very small number of academics hold this fringe view, but Franke isn't one of them - he falls in the pseudo-history category. None of Franke's work is peer reviewed. It wouldn't get accepted in an academic journal. There's obviously a distinction between fringe academia and pseudo-history. I wouldn't consider Franke a fringe academic, but a crank. At least academics with fringe views have qualifications and peer reviewed work; Franke has no credentials aside from an ICT diploma, and he self-publishes his crackpot work.Gorgonite (talk) 10:45, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

   He does not extrapolate far enough from accepted viewpoints that we care. FuzzyCatPotato!™ (talk/stalk) 22:36, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

4. Totallynotharambe (talk) 12:08, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

Merge/redirect

1. Maybe merge him into the Atlantis main article? He isn't especially notable other than the fact that his idea of where Atlantis was is Sicily. Arawn Emrys (talk) 22:20, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

   I could go with this myself. --Castaigne2 (talk) 22:23, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

   Me too. There are loads of theories about which island Atlantis could have been. This is just one more. Bicycle^wheel 10:55, 1 October 2016 (UTC)

   Oppose. oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 00:16, 2 October 2016 (UTC)

Goat

• I could buy "not notable" since he's self published, but in what way are Atlantis proponents not missional? ikanreed ^{You probably didn't deserve that} 20:54, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

  He himself is what is not missional. He appears to be someone the Internet with an interest in Atlantis and the article is a stub.--Owlman (talk) (mail) 21:09, 30 September 2016 (UTC)

Apparently not the real Franke

The person posting here as Thorwald C. Franke has been blocked on two accounts impersonating Franke and is likely Mikemikev based on the doxxing and a very similar posting style when he resorted to insults.Gorgonite (talk)