Talk:Biblical scientific errors
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What I dislike about this article[edit]
What I dislike about this article is its focus.
The nuttiness of the bible is not shown with arguments about ants, the definition of "firmament", or the classification of mustard plants or bats. The nuttery is in the the seven day creation; all the silliness with talking snakes and apples in the Garden of Eden; The Tower of Babel; The Great Flood and so on.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:08, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Are you referring to the Bible-writers-and-polishers (who may well have been using definitions which were logical to them, including idioms etc (how many dollars is a fistful?), interpreting 'usages from the olden days' etc), or the modern Bible-interpreters, who fail to take on board scientific and knowledge advances in the intervening several thousands of years? Anna Livia (talk) 18:24, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm talking about the bizarre stories in the bible which I mentioned above.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:31, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Those don't really contradict scientific data though. People don't believe that all snakes can talk, they just believe THAT snake could through supernatural means. What scientific evidence is there that a global flood or a tower didn't happen?--Keyboarder (talk) 20:57, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- "What scientific evidence is there that a global flood or a tower didn't happen?" You know, I could go on about proving a negative, extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, or even philosophy of science, or I could point out that there's fuck all evidence for these claimed events and call it a day. If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm using the lattermost option. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 21:48, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- You (Kb) just lost all credibility with one word: supernatural! Scream!! (talk) 22:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- God could apparently hide evidence of the tower but couldn't hide evidence of evolution and stuff that directly contradicts with parts of the Bible. Funny that.
- Anyhow, what kind of rewrite do you want to change the focus from that to nuttier stories? Or vice versa? --It's-a me,
๐LeftyGreenMario!๐ 22:29, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you are asking me, then the really silly stuff should go first with a small paragraph each and the existing stuff later.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:56, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
- Edit: Okay I'm confused now. Are you referring to Keyboarder's revision or was the article an issue before that? --It's-a me, ๐LeftyGreenMario!๐ 22:34, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Who are you addressing LGM? Scream!! (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- I think Keyboarder derailed so I just want to address the original question/concern Bob M was asking. --It's-a me, ๐LeftyGreenMario!๐ 23:07, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- My point was that this article is meant to contrast Biblical statements with scientific data. I doubt claims such as a supernatural snake can be refuted with scientific data (hence the term "supernatural"), so such a point doesn't belong on this page. If anyone provides data that refutes things like the flood or tower then it would make sense to have them on this page.--Keyboarder (talk) 01:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC
- And mine is that the most glaring, gob-smackingy "scientific" failures in the bible barely get a mention. It's obvious the Earth was not created in seven days, there is no evidence for a global flood and no linguistic evidence for a Tower of Babel episode. And if we are talking science it is necessary to provide positive data for a claim. If you've got anything to support a seven day creation, a global flood or a Tower of Babel event - then bring it on. Meanwhile, If you want to see what we already have on these topics check out Evidence against a recent creation, Global flood and Tower of Babel.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
- And allow for poetic license - eg [1].
- The definition/perceived extent of 'the world' in Biblical times was probably rather smaller than the one we use - so what would now be seen as an extensive regional flood (or several such, conflated in the re-telling) would be seen as theoretically global then.
- Interpretations of the universe do change over time - the molten Venus (planet) was only revealed within the lifetimes of (a proportion of) people living today. Anna Livia (talk) 14:17, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
- And mine is that the most glaring, gob-smackingy "scientific" failures in the bible barely get a mention. It's obvious the Earth was not created in seven days, there is no evidence for a global flood and no linguistic evidence for a Tower of Babel episode. And if we are talking science it is necessary to provide positive data for a claim. If you've got anything to support a seven day creation, a global flood or a Tower of Babel event - then bring it on. Meanwhile, If you want to see what we already have on these topics check out Evidence against a recent creation, Global flood and Tower of Babel.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:04, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
- My point was that this article is meant to contrast Biblical statements with scientific data. I doubt claims such as a supernatural snake can be refuted with scientific data (hence the term "supernatural"), so such a point doesn't belong on this page. If anyone provides data that refutes things like the flood or tower then it would make sense to have them on this page.--Keyboarder (talk) 01:14, 22 May 2021 (UTC
- I think Keyboarder derailed so I just want to address the original question/concern Bob M was asking. --It's-a me,
- Who are you addressing LGM? Scream!! (talk) 22:43, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- You (Kb) just lost all credibility with one word: supernatural! Scream!! (talk) 22:27, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- "What scientific evidence is there that a global flood or a tower didn't happen?" You know, I could go on about proving a negative, extraordinary claims requiring extraordinary evidence, or even philosophy of science, or I could point out that there's fuck all evidence for these claimed events and call it a day. If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm using the lattermost option. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 21:48, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- Those don't really contradict scientific data though. People don't believe that all snakes can talk, they just believe THAT snake could through supernatural means. What scientific evidence is there that a global flood or a tower didn't happen?--Keyboarder (talk) 20:57, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm talking about the bizarre stories in the bible which I mentioned above.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:31, 21 May 2021 (UTC)
I have added a "Gross Errors" section at the beginning.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Sorry, but I'm going to remove these additions. The main issue with them is that they try to prove a negative by pointing to a lack of evidence, which is against the point of this article. I know you mention that in the intro but it's still a bit off topic. Remember one could easily claim that God could make a 4 billion year old Earth in only 7 days. As well as make Humans and animals that give the appearance of evolution. Sure that might be a stretch, but not impossible from a Biblical perspective. The Tower of Babel argument seems particularly poor imo though. There's no scientific consensus on the origin of language, but many theories suggests multiple source languages, which matches the Babel narrative. --Keyboarder (talk) 15:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with the removal. Taking the first one there is a complete lack of evidence for a seven day creation. That alone is sufficient for it to be a non-scientific claim. But there is in fact a mountain of evidence for an old earth as our article points out. The same argument can be made for each one. The scientific approach is to reject claims for which there is no evidence and to accept claims for which there is evidence. I strongly suggest you look for consensus before removing those lines. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The age of the Earth has nothing to do with it's creation, those are two separate points. Just because the Earth in 4 billion years old, doesn't mean it wasn't created in only 7 days. Also, again, God could simply made it so it was already old when it was made. Remember the premise of the article is that "Biblical scientific errors refer to Biblical claims that go against scientific data", not Biblical statements that lack any evidence. Points that cannot be contrasted with scientific data are outside the scope of this article. Since it is impossible to prove that God didn't create Humans and animal that looked like they evolved, or prove that God didn't create multiple languages, then those points don't belong in this article. I strongly suggest you look for consensus before adding those lines.--Keyboarder (talk) 16:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- "Just because the Earth in 4 billion years old, doesn't mean it wasn't created in only 7 days. Also, again, God could simply made it so it was already old when it was made." Personally, I think the Earth was made last Thursday with everything in place so it looks like it wasn't created last Thursday.
- Slightly more serious: lol seriously stating the omphalos hypothesis in $YEAR. ไธป่ฆ่กไบๆ (talk) 16:56, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The point is that every argument in the article needs to be backed up with scientific data. If a Biblical statement can't be disproven with data, then it should not be listed in this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- All the evidence we have is that the Earth is old. We have no evidence that the earth was created last Thursday, last month, or 6,000 years ago. Have you read: Evidence against a recent creation and Last Thursdayism?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The section you added doesn't mention young Earth theory. You try to argue that a 7-day creation is disproven by the age of the Earth, which doesn't really make much sense. When the Earth was made is separate from how long it took to do it. Further more, like I said, why couldn't God create a 4 billion year old Earth in a single day? There is no evidence to disprove that idea.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to disprove the idea that the Earth was created last Thursday, either. ไธป่ฆ่กไบๆ (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- OK, Keyborder. It's time for you. Where is your evidence that the Earth was created in seven days? I have asked you for this before and got nothing. Now please give it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to suggest that the Earth was made in only 7 days are was not not last Thursday, I never said the was. My point is that these claims can't be proven or disproven scientifically either way, and thus don't belong in an article meant to demonstrate scientific data. --Keyboarder (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- But you agree the bible makes this unsubstantiated claim? And that humans came into being at the same time?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Of course, clearly it does. But it also says that one thousand years is like a day to God. And just because it's unsubstantiated doesn't mean it belongs in this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 03:51, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Given the differing orders of magnitude between the the big bang and the formation of the earth - seven days or seven thousand years is equally hilariously wrong.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:18, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- The point is that God is able to work outside time. Plus you're still conflating the duration of creation with how long ago it happened. The age of the Earth is irrelevant to how long it took to be formed.--Keyboarder (talk) 13:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- From your comments I'm not sure if you understand that, from a scientific perspective, positive evidence is what is required in order for us to provisionally accept a claim. You have been asked for evidence of a seven-day creation, for a young earth and for the Tower of Babel. In each case your response has been to deflect and to ask that people disprove these claims. Science doesn't actually work this way and the burden of proof lies with you. Nevertheless we have given you links to our articles which support positions which differ to your own.
- But now, let's go for the biggie. You have repeatedly made reference to "god"ยท So now my question is: what evidence do you have for your particular version of "god"? Given your previous inability to provide evidence for anything anything at all you have claimed in conversations about the the age of the Earth, The Tower of Babel or whatever I'm not expecting a lot - but this is your opportunity to surprise everyone.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:33, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- The point is that God is able to work outside time. Plus you're still conflating the duration of creation with how long ago it happened. The age of the Earth is irrelevant to how long it took to be formed.--Keyboarder (talk) 13:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Given the differing orders of magnitude between the the big bang and the formation of the earth - seven days or seven thousand years is equally hilariously wrong.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:18, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Of course, clearly it does. But it also says that one thousand years is like a day to God. And just because it's unsubstantiated doesn't mean it belongs in this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 03:51, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- But you agree the bible makes this unsubstantiated claim? And that humans came into being at the same time?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to suggest that the Earth was made in only 7 days are was not not last Thursday, I never said the was. My point is that these claims can't be proven or disproven scientifically either way, and thus don't belong in an article meant to demonstrate scientific data. --Keyboarder (talk) 18:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- OK, Keyborder. It's time for you. Where is your evidence that the Earth was created in seven days? I have asked you for this before and got nothing. Now please give it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- There is no evidence to disprove the idea that the Earth was created last Thursday, either. ไธป่ฆ่กไบๆ (talk) 18:01, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The section you added doesn't mention young Earth theory. You try to argue that a 7-day creation is disproven by the age of the Earth, which doesn't really make much sense. When the Earth was made is separate from how long it took to do it. Further more, like I said, why couldn't God create a 4 billion year old Earth in a single day? There is no evidence to disprove that idea.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- All the evidence we have is that the Earth is old. We have no evidence that the earth was created last Thursday, last month, or 6,000 years ago. Have you read: Evidence against a recent creation and Last Thursdayism?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The point is that every argument in the article needs to be backed up with scientific data. If a Biblical statement can't be disproven with data, then it should not be listed in this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:05, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- The age of the Earth has nothing to do with it's creation, those are two separate points. Just because the Earth in 4 billion years old, doesn't mean it wasn't created in only 7 days. Also, again, God could simply made it so it was already old when it was made. Remember the premise of the article is that "Biblical scientific errors refer to Biblical claims that go against scientific data", not Biblical statements that lack any evidence. Points that cannot be contrasted with scientific data are outside the scope of this article. Since it is impossible to prove that God didn't create Humans and animal that looked like they evolved, or prove that God didn't create multiple languages, then those points don't belong in this article. I strongly suggest you look for consensus before adding those lines.--Keyboarder (talk) 16:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I disagree with the removal. Taking the first one there is a complete lack of evidence for a seven day creation. That alone is sufficient for it to be a non-scientific claim. But there is in fact a mountain of evidence for an old earth as our article points out. The same argument can be made for each one. The scientific approach is to reject claims for which there is no evidence and to accept claims for which there is evidence. I strongly suggest you look for consensus before removing those lines. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
No offense, but my god, you are stupid, Keyboarder. "My point is that these claims can't be proven or disproven scientifically either way" read up on falsifiability before continuing to embarass yourself. ไธป่ฆ่กไบๆ (talk) 14:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I strongly suspect Keyboarder subscribes to the idea of NOMA, based on their comments thus far. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 14:45, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not so sure. I think he's just highly indoctrinated. I'm honestly interested in seeing his evidence for his god.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:11, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Alright, let's get something straight. I am not trying to prove anything. Nor am I suggesting that just because something can't be disproven it therefore must be true. There is no evidence for a 7-day creation, a young Earth, the Tower of Babel, or for God.
- As I've said before, this article is solely about contrasting Biblical statements with scientific data. The reason I am asking you to disprove Biblical claims is because that is the entire point is of this discussion. If something is not falsifiable then it has no point being in this article. The page on falsifiability even explicitly states that creationism is not falsifiable. Any argument on this page must include both an actual Biblical claim and be contrasted with scientific evidence. Simply saying a Biblical claim lacks evidence is not in scope. That is not a NOMA argument, it's the exact opposite.--Keyboarder (talk) 15:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- While we are making some progress whith your acceptance for the lack of evidence for for all of the things you have previously supported with various tortured arguments; you have clearly failed to understand the concept of "falsifiability". If something is not falsifiable in principle then, definitionally, it it is not scientific. This is not a statement in support of a scientific view of creationism - it's a criticism. Non falsifiablbility is not a get-out-of-jail card for creationism in science - it's a death stroke. — Unsigned, by: Bob M / talk / contribs
- I'm not sure what "progress" you're referring to, I have not changed my position. But your statement proves my point. Since creationism is not a scientific claim it has no business being mentioned in an article dedicated to scientific claims.--Keyboarder (talk) 16:40, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Creationism makes claims about material reality and bills itself as being equal to if not better than science. It is well within the scope of this article and this wiki's mission statement. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 17:16, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Except the page on falsifiability, again, explicitly states that science cannot be preformed on creationism. But if you do have any scientific data that does contradict Biblical creationism then you can present it. However, as I have already shown, the evidence that has already been proposed does not actually refute Biblical claims. --Keyboarder (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you have any evidence against my farts being a cancer cure, please present them. Also, you've shown fuck all. You've asserted that Biblical claims can't be addressed by science, you've asserted that the article fails to disprove Biblical claims, but you've proven fuck all. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 18:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Actually I've thoroughly showed why the article fails to disprove Biblical claims in several places, as can be seen in this talk page. If a claim can't be disproved with scientific data, then it shouldn't be in this article. It's that simple. If you have data to show then please do so, otherwise these arguments should be remove.--Keyboarder (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Prove my farts can't cure cancer. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:06, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I can't, which is why there is no page dedicated to such a thing. The issue you're having is your attempt to maintain both a position of falsifiabilityf and anti-NOMA. Falsifiability suggests that claims such as creationism are not testable, while anti-NOMA suggests that they are. These are two contradictory ideas, yet you are still trying to satisfy both, a strategy that is destined to fail--Keyboarder (talk) 19:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem, since I can disprove either quite easily. Such claims contradict all known data, and as such must demonstrate extraordinary evidence so as to prove they are worth consideration. There, done. Principles of falsibiality adhered to, NOMA still shit. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:18, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- The falsifiability page demonstrates why creationism isn't testable. Regardless, please share this known data that contradicts creationism, that's all I've been asking for.--Keyboarder (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Talkorigins... And here's Rationalwiki's own article... I really should just demand that you provide evidence for creationism, since that is in fact the extraordinary claim here, not you know, not buying into a fantastical premise... And you know, your claiming "it can't be falsified or tested!" is the real problem here. If it involves material reality, it can be tested. Any form of pseudoscience or woo can be tested. Including Creationism. Creationism has yet to provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny, hence it is debunked, hence it is rejected as a viable explanation for anything it claims to explain. Etc, etc, etc. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- It would seem then that RW contradicts itself wouldn't it? (makes me wonder why any of it should be considered trustworthy). You also seem to disagree with the concept of falsifiability (which is fine, that's up to you). I will not provide evidence creationism because I am not trying to prove it. Rather since this article is attempting to disprove it, it's that thing that needs to have evidence for it's claim. The page you linked is already linked in the article and does make sense to have there, however much of the section is still baseless, such as suggesting that a 4 billion year old Earth contradicts a 7-day creation (those are two separate ideas).--Keyboarder (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm beginning to think you don't know what the word falsiability means. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm just going with what's written in RW's page on it. Moving on, if you have no more objection, lets proceed the removal of the poor arguments on this page.--Keyboarder (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- No, your arguments against them are still shit. Consensus denied. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 20:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I should point out that since I disagree with them that means there is no consensus for them either. But please state you disputes with my arguments so we can progress further--Keyboarder (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC).
- Present better arguments than poorly veiled special pleading. If you don't, don't be surprised that people aren't persuaded and won't agree to your desired changes. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 20:22, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- The Bible is the one special pleading, not me. Which, like I said, can't be disproved, and therefore should not be in this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 20:31, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Present better arguments than poorly veiled special pleading. If you don't, don't be surprised that people aren't persuaded and won't agree to your desired changes. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 20:22, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I should point out that since I disagree with them that means there is no consensus for them either. But please state you disputes with my arguments so we can progress further--Keyboarder (talk) 20:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC).
- No, your arguments against them are still shit. Consensus denied. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 20:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm just going with what's written in RW's page on it. Moving on, if you have no more objection, lets proceed the removal of the poor arguments on this page.--Keyboarder (talk) 20:05, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm beginning to think you don't know what the word falsiability means. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- It would seem then that RW contradicts itself wouldn't it? (makes me wonder why any of it should be considered trustworthy). You also seem to disagree with the concept of falsifiability (which is fine, that's up to you). I will not provide evidence creationism because I am not trying to prove it. Rather since this article is attempting to disprove it, it's that thing that needs to have evidence for it's claim. The page you linked is already linked in the article and does make sense to have there, however much of the section is still baseless, such as suggesting that a 4 billion year old Earth contradicts a 7-day creation (those are two separate ideas).--Keyboarder (talk) 19:51, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Talkorigins... And here's Rationalwiki's own article... I really should just demand that you provide evidence for creationism, since that is in fact the extraordinary claim here, not you know, not buying into a fantastical premise... And you know, your claiming "it can't be falsified or tested!" is the real problem here. If it involves material reality, it can be tested. Any form of pseudoscience or woo can be tested. Including Creationism. Creationism has yet to provide evidence that stands up to scrutiny, hence it is debunked, hence it is rejected as a viable explanation for anything it claims to explain. Etc, etc, etc. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:38, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- The falsifiability page demonstrates why creationism isn't testable. Regardless, please share this known data that contradicts creationism, that's all I've been asking for.--Keyboarder (talk) 19:25, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I don't have a problem, since I can disprove either quite easily. Such claims contradict all known data, and as such must demonstrate extraordinary evidence so as to prove they are worth consideration. There, done. Principles of falsibiality adhered to, NOMA still shit. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:18, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I can't, which is why there is no page dedicated to such a thing. The issue you're having is your attempt to maintain both a position of falsifiabilityf and anti-NOMA. Falsifiability suggests that claims such as creationism are not testable, while anti-NOMA suggests that they are. These are two contradictory ideas, yet you are still trying to satisfy both, a strategy that is destined to fail--Keyboarder (talk) 19:13, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Prove my farts can't cure cancer. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 19:06, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Actually I've thoroughly showed why the article fails to disprove Biblical claims in several places, as can be seen in this talk page. If a claim can't be disproved with scientific data, then it shouldn't be in this article. It's that simple. If you have data to show then please do so, otherwise these arguments should be remove.--Keyboarder (talk) 18:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- If you have any evidence against my farts being a cancer cure, please present them. Also, you've shown fuck all. You've asserted that Biblical claims can't be addressed by science, you've asserted that the article fails to disprove Biblical claims, but you've proven fuck all. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 18:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Except the page on falsifiability, again, explicitly states that science cannot be preformed on creationism. But if you do have any scientific data that does contradict Biblical creationism then you can present it. However, as I have already shown, the evidence that has already been proposed does not actually refute Biblical claims. --Keyboarder (talk) 17:43, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Creationism makes claims about material reality and bills itself as being equal to if not better than science. It is well within the scope of this article and this wiki's mission statement. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 17:16, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure what "progress" you're referring to, I have not changed my position. But your statement proves my point. Since creationism is not a scientific claim it has no business being mentioned in an article dedicated to scientific claims.--Keyboarder (talk) 16:40, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- While we are making some progress whith your acceptance for the lack of evidence for for all of the things you have previously supported with various tortured arguments; you have clearly failed to understand the concept of "falsifiability". If something is not falsifiable in principle then, definitionally, it it is not scientific. This is not a statement in support of a scientific view of creationism - it's a criticism. Non falsifiablbility is not a get-out-of-jail card for creationism in science - it's a death stroke. — Unsigned, by: Bob M / talk / contribs
- I'm not so sure. I think he's just highly indoctrinated. I'm honestly interested in seeing his evidence for his god.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:11, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Way to miss the forest for the trees regarding falsifiability, mate. "Except the page on falsifiability, again, explicitly states that science cannot be preformed on creationism" and that's why it's pseudoscience at the very best. ไธป่ฆ่กไบๆ (talk) 20:37, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Which is why it shouldn't be on this page. This article isn't meant to criticize every Biblical idea, just the ones that can be refuted using scientific data.--Keyboarder (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- In fact, some (in fact, most) of the more stupid creationist ideas can be easily refuted (falsified). So I've changed the text to reflect this. It's the creationist "appeal to magic" which cannot be part of science. But that, by itself, makes an claim simultaneously both unfalsifiable and unscientific.
- Where Christians or the bible make unfalsifiable claims - they are, by definition, not "scientific".
- Where Christians or the bible make claims which are both capable of being falsified and are easily falsified - they are not "scientific". Your argument loses under both scenarios.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:32, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
Striped goats[edit]
Nothing about the biblical "fact" that you can breed a striped goat by showing a normal goat a striped stick? Lavalizard101 (talk) 16:51, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
See here for an aig talking about it and deliberately misconstruing what the passage actually says: https://answersingenesis.org/genetics/animal-genetics/jacobs-odd-breeding-program-genesis-30/. Lavalizard101 (talk) 16:57, 22 May 2021 (UTC)
- Personally I think the way this is describe is too vague to claim it's inaccurate. The text doesn't say that the stiped sticks were the cause for the stiped lambs, only that they were placed in the water. The Bible never explicitly links the two things together. --Keyboarder (talk) 15:38, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Genesis 30:32 to 30:39... Yes, it's a bit rambling, but yes, it says striped sticks cause striped cattle. Here's another link for those who wish to read the relevant portion in a less broken format... โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 15:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it is one of the more bizarre bits of biblical lunacy.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- What about some guy dying and coming back to life three days later? Or that same guy raising Lazarus from the dead? Or walking on water. Or ... Scream!! (talk) 16:41, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Again, the text never explicitly states that the sticks were the cause of the stiped lambs. It does says the Jacob would use the sticks when he wanted a striped lamb, but no reason is given for why the lamb did turned out striped. --Keyboarder (talk) 16:52, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- It (heavily) implies it. So your reasoning here is pretty weak. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 17:10, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- What it implies is up to your own opinion. The fact remains that the cause is never stated. So your reasoning here certainly isn't any better.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:29, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Why does it mention the striped sticks malarkey if it has no relevance to to the myth?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:44, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Good question, but it doesn't prove anything. It could very well have a more symbolic meaning. A Christian, for example, might see it as a foreshadow to the cross. Or perhaps it alludes to Moses' staff later in the Pentateuch. Perhaps it just had cultural relevance. Any number of theories could be suggested. It in no way needs to be be interpreted and causal.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am starting to doubt that you are arguing in good faith.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:08, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- You're a tad late to that conclusion Bob. But right nevertheless methinks. Scream!! (talk) 18:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I try to go with "assume good faith" for as long as possible.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes I'm trying arguing in good faith. You just have poorly supported arguments.--Keyboarder (talk) 18:27, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I try to go with "assume good faith" for as long as possible.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:18, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- You're a tad late to that conclusion Bob. But right nevertheless methinks. Scream!! (talk) 18:14, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I am starting to doubt that you are arguing in good faith.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 18:08, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Allow for some superficial knowledge of genetics in the ancient world ('breeding animals with different wool colours can produce interesting results' etc).
- The mistake is to assume that 'the colouring of the lambs' is down to genetics - rather than Jacob using 'various plants steeping in the water' to 'dye the animals in the wool' (the sticks are cut to extract the juices which change colour on exposure to air and the animals are washed to remove at least some of the wool-oils). Anna Livia (talk) 18:02, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- That's an interesting theory. Is there any evidence that that works or at least that ancient cultures thought that? I still feel like it's a bit of a stretch to come to this conclusion from the text alone though, but it just goes to show how vague the passage really is.--Keyboarder (talk) 18:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I was suggesting another possibility that might work (along the lines of the 'eat too many carrots and you turn orange' scenario, and eg indigo during one stage of processing is a clear liquid before turning blue, while various saps do become black on contact with skin/exposure to light - these are the examples I can think of offhand). I read somewhere of 'a magical trick' where some cloth was put in a dyebath and 'came out several colours' (various different mordants having been applied to different areas beforehand).
- And 'whoever wrote that bit of the Bible' may not have understood what was being described/some detail was lost or simplified in the retelling etc (eg with the Greeks in the Trojan War using war-chariots and in the Iliad they merely drove them to the battlefield, the style of warfare having changed).
- I am not saying that this is what happened - but it requires fewer assumptions than some of the alternatives. Anna Livia 22:39, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- "What it implies is up to your own opinion." NO IT FUCKING ISN'T!!! THE FUCKING WORDS ON THE FUCKING PAGE OF THE FUCKING BIBLE CLEARLY FUCKING IMPLY THAT FUCKING STICKS WERE USED TO CHANGE THE FUCKING APPEARANCE OF THE FUCKING LIVESTOCK!!! GODSMOTHERFUCKINGDAMNIT!!! โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 18:07, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Succinctly put GC. Scream!! (talk) 18:12, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Where does it say that?--Keyboarder (talk) 18:24, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Blocked for 9 hours for Sealioning and gaslighting. Fuck this dishonest bullshit. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 18:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- "37And Jacob took him rods of green poplar, and of the hazel and chesnut tree; and pilled white strakes in them, and made the white appear which was in the rods. 38And he set the rods which he had pilled before the flocks in the gutters in the watering troughs when the flocks came to drink, that they should conceive when they came to drink. 39And the flocks conceived before the rods, and brought forth cattle ringstraked, speckled, and spotted. " To be as specific as possible.
- Blocked for 9 hours for Sealioning and gaslighting. Fuck this dishonest bullshit. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 18:31, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- That's an interesting theory. Is there any evidence that that works or at least that ancient cultures thought that? I still feel like it's a bit of a stretch to come to this conclusion from the text alone though, but it just goes to show how vague the passage really is.--Keyboarder (talk) 18:22, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Good question, but it doesn't prove anything. It could very well have a more symbolic meaning. A Christian, for example, might see it as a foreshadow to the cross. Or perhaps it alludes to Moses' staff later in the Pentateuch. Perhaps it just had cultural relevance. Any number of theories could be suggested. It in no way needs to be be interpreted and causal.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:59, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Why does it mention the striped sticks malarkey if it has no relevance to to the myth?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:44, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- What it implies is up to your own opinion. The fact remains that the cause is never stated. So your reasoning here certainly isn't any better.--Keyboarder (talk) 17:29, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- It (heavily) implies it. So your reasoning here is pretty weak. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 17:10, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Yes, it is one of the more bizarre bits of biblical lunacy.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:03, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Genesis 30:32 to 30:39... Yes, it's a bit rambling, but yes, it says striped sticks cause striped cattle. Here's another link for those who wish to read the relevant portion in a less broken format... โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 15:54, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- I've seen people read that as feeding the sticks to the livestock. I've seen people read that as showing the sticks to the livestock. The idea that the sticks change the appearance of the livestock is never in dispute because it's what's written on the fucking page. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 18:40, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
See also the NRSV text, which states: "And since they bred when they came to drink, 39 the flocks bred in front of the rods, and so the flocks produced young that were striped, speckled, and spotted." ๐ฎ๐๐๐๐๐ talk 23:35, 25 May 2021 (UTC)
- Please don't ban people for simply responding to your comments. All you're doing is preventing open discussion and refusing to communicate. If you are not interested in discussing then please don't get the the way of those who are. Yes, I know what Gen 30 says, you've have already linked to it in fact. Simply repeating yourself isn't going to make your position more convincing. You need to be more specific with what you think points to causality. In truth, these lines are rendered in several different ways by different translations (https://www.blueletterbible.org/kjv/gen/30/1/t_bibles_30037), There is certainly no consensus that the sticks are the cause of the striped lambs. In fact Gen 31:7 goes on to state that is was God who caused the lambs to be stripped, so trying to disprove this point with scientific data is rather pointless.--Keyboarder (talk) 03:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't ban you, I blocked you. If I had banned you your account wouldn't be able to comment. As for why... When you say things like "Where does it say that?" after I explain my position, you are engaging in bad faith argumentation. At that point, the discussion ceases to be civil or productive, as you have dislayed a lack of interest in engaging with others and instead seek to engage in pointless polemics and performance. Here's an interesting factoid, I hate performative bullshit. Here's another factoid. NOMA is spineless bullshit. If it happens in the reality we inhabit, we can test it. If there's no evidence of external forces, we reject that explanation. The end. If God could enchant sticks with magic, we'd be able to test for anomalous data. If there was a global flood, we'd be able to test for that. If a man rose from he dead, we'd be able to test that too. Every dipshit trying to hide behind a veil of superstition is just that, a dipshit hiding behind superstition. Unless you give better reasoning than "theists will hide behind the same shitty arguments they've hid behind counterless times before" then you'll not get the consensus you require. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 04:09, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- You're getting off-topic. This article is solely about contrasting Biblical statements with scientific data. That's it. If you have evidence that contradicts super natural claims feel free to present it. What this article is not, however, is a list of Bible statements that lack any evidence. Just because a statement is ridicules doesn't mean it should be on this page. Simply saying theists have no proof for their claim is not enough of an argument for this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 04:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- 'In the olden days' they had limited access to tools of scientific analysis and operated according to different rules - God/dess/s/esdidit was an accepted explanation, what actually happened and what was written down may differ considerably and those on 'RW is 100 years old (and even more so on subsequent anniversaries)' will think some of our present assumptions equally laughable. Anna Livia (talk) 11:52, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that's really relevant though. The article is meant to be about what Biblical text does say, but not necessarily an explanation why it says those things. From a Divinely inspired Biblical inerrancy perspective we would expect that it could not be proven wrong and could hold up to modern scientific scrutiny. --Keyboarder (talk) 13:12, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- 'In the olden days' they had limited access to tools of scientific analysis and operated according to different rules - God/dess/s/esdidit was an accepted explanation, what actually happened and what was written down may differ considerably and those on 'RW is 100 years old (and even more so on subsequent anniversaries)' will think some of our present assumptions equally laughable. Anna Livia (talk) 11:52, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- You're getting off-topic. This article is solely about contrasting Biblical statements with scientific data. That's it. If you have evidence that contradicts super natural claims feel free to present it. What this article is not, however, is a list of Bible statements that lack any evidence. Just because a statement is ridicules doesn't mean it should be on this page. Simply saying theists have no proof for their claim is not enough of an argument for this article.--Keyboarder (talk) 04:46, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- I didn't ban you, I blocked you. If I had banned you your account wouldn't be able to comment. As for why... When you say things like "Where does it say that?" after I explain my position, you are engaging in bad faith argumentation. At that point, the discussion ceases to be civil or productive, as you have dislayed a lack of interest in engaging with others and instead seek to engage in pointless polemics and performance. Here's an interesting factoid, I hate performative bullshit. Here's another factoid. NOMA is spineless bullshit. If it happens in the reality we inhabit, we can test it. If there's no evidence of external forces, we reject that explanation. The end. If God could enchant sticks with magic, we'd be able to test for anomalous data. If there was a global flood, we'd be able to test for that. If a man rose from he dead, we'd be able to test that too. Every dipshit trying to hide behind a veil of superstition is just that, a dipshit hiding behind superstition. Unless you give better reasoning than "theists will hide behind the same shitty arguments they've hid behind counterless times before" then you'll not get the consensus you require. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 04:09, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Isn't it about time ...[edit]
... that we told keyboarder to bugger off? No-one seems to know what the hell his moaning's all about and almost everyone has tried to communicate with him (I apologise for the assumption of gender but I don't think a female would be so intransigent). Isn't it about time that we told keyboarder to bugger off? Scream!! (talk) 21:08, 26 May 2021 (UTC):
- To be fair I don't recall you attempting to engage my arguments. Most people seem to have ignored the majority of what I said and instead tangent off into philosophical arguments. If your not interested in in discussing then you're free not to, but I would also be happy to clarify my point if you're still having a hard time understanding. What about my argument exactly are you confused about?
- All I'm saying is that many points in this article either don't correctly depict Biblical statements, or fail to provide refuting scientific data. Both these things are needed for anything in this article, as stated in its premise.
- (And fyi you are clearly wrong on your assessment of women, but I would also ask you to not be so condescending toward men either.)--Keyboarder (talk) 23:17, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Here's where I'll explicitly disagree with Scream. NOMA is indeed quite a clear (albeit stupid) position. "You can't test magic" the NOMA camp says, even while admitting in their premise that the magic in question is claimed to interact with material reality. Guess what? There's other things which you can't measure directly, such as black holes. You instead measure their effect on their environment. There's fuck all indirect data to suggest that magic is real, and since an explanatory claim needs to meet a minimum threshold of evidence to be taken into even the most basic consideration, the "magic" explanation can be safely discarded unless and until better (read any) evidence is presented for it. Just as you wouldn't let a legal case with no evidence go to trial, so too would you reject an explanation that can't even meet the most basic evidentiary thresholds. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 23:28, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Fair enough GC. To Kb: the only reason that I don't engage your 'arguments' is that I think they are so stupid that a kindergartener would be ashamed of making them. Scream!! (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Look, I don't care what you call it. This article is about scientific data, so any point that doesn't refer to scientific data should be removed, as should any claim that misrepresents Biblical statements.. What is the issue with that?--Keyboarder (talk) 23:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- The article starts with biblical claims which are completely contradicted by all scientific evidence. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:42, 1 June 2021 (UTC)
- Look, I don't care what you call it. This article is about scientific data, so any point that doesn't refer to scientific data should be removed, as should any claim that misrepresents Biblical statements.. What is the issue with that?--Keyboarder (talk) 23:44, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Fair enough GC. To Kb: the only reason that I don't engage your 'arguments' is that I think they are so stupid that a kindergartener would be ashamed of making them. Scream!! (talk) 23:41, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
- Here's where I'll explicitly disagree with Scream. NOMA is indeed quite a clear (albeit stupid) position. "You can't test magic" the NOMA camp says, even while admitting in their premise that the magic in question is claimed to interact with material reality. Guess what? There's other things which you can't measure directly, such as black holes. You instead measure their effect on their environment. There's fuck all indirect data to suggest that magic is real, and since an explanatory claim needs to meet a minimum threshold of evidence to be taken into even the most basic consideration, the "magic" explanation can be safely discarded unless and until better (read any) evidence is presented for it. Just as you wouldn't let a legal case with no evidence go to trial, so too would you reject an explanation that can't even meet the most basic evidentiary thresholds. โญComrade GCโญMinistry of Praise 23:28, 26 May 2021 (UTC)
Responses to this article[edit]
"rationalwiki is a bit of a joke site imo. You only need to look at the first paragraph to see that it doesn't use any rigours method of research to strengthen the claims made, which in the end are mostly just uncited opinion.
A lot of it also seems to lack any understanding of the source material they're making claims against (the bible). You'd be better looking at actual academic research which takes a critical look at parts of the bible.
--Back2theroots34 (talk)
And as another poster mentioned, it misses the point." --Back2theroots34 (talk) 19:47, 16 March 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you for this three-month-old reddit thread which doesn't really seem to go anywhere. If you would like to post some specific ideas or criticisms of your own then please feel free.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:35, 17 March 2022 (UTC)
Hare does not regurgitate, yet:[edit]
Leviticus 11:6 And the hare, because he cheweth the cud, but divideth not the hoof; he is unclean unto you. — Unsigned, by: 178.223.188.32 / talk / contribs