Talk:Japan

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This Asia related article has been awarded BRONZE status for quality. It's getting there, but could be better with improvement. See RationalWiki:Article rating for more information.

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This is not referenceable.[edit]

"As they are unwelcome, foreigners have sometimes been discouraged from learning the Japanese language too well, although more often speaking the Japanese language even haltingly will get you effusive (if rather patronising) praise from Japanese.[33][34]"

I talked to Native Japanese speakers and read foreigners general experience in japan including video recordings. I've never heard of such claims until coming upon this article. If a few individuals in rare instances make such ridiculous claims (which the articles lack to go in-depth and are really vague) it's not something that is inherent within the culture especially with conflicting evidence of foreigners encouraging to learn the pronunciation of Japanese language. If anything the source appears to advertise blog spots.

A negative reaction from a few individuals does not warrant false information to flow around. To make such a big claim that you shouldn't thoroughly learn a language requires a lot more evidence than nameless people in a blog spot. The Japanese section needs some rehauling from the great lack of understanding and terrible translation of Japanese culture, especially if people were to take this site seriously. Jumping from A to B with a serious claim should not be backed up with little to no evidence.

Seems like an awful stereotype. I think you're correct in your criticism, especially since you back it up with your own experience. Anyhow, what is the more realistic scenario between interaction of Japanese and foreign, but fluent speakers? Even in the Chicago Tribune, one person says that the reactions are "wonderment at foreigners who are fluent. 'It's not negative,' he said." and "Fukushima said the attitude is not universal". So even one of the sources don't support those claims. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 05:25, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
It is clear that Japan is very discriminatory and extremely conservative. It cannot be seen as a biased description of Japanese culture. It is a legitimate criticism. Many of the minorities who are discriminated against and persecuted in Japan will sympathize. Frankly, the image of Northeast Asia that Americans think is not 100% correct, but the fact that Northeast Asia is irrationally conservative is not a prejudice that white people think, but a reality that Northeast Asia should face. # I think we should restore all the contents of the Japan document before June 15, 2020.--BluePink (talk) 22:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Old Man Yells at Cloud[edit]

What a strange website this is. Almost all your articles are written in opposition to YouTube videos? What is the purpose of writing an article about Japan here - and what is wrong with the Wikipedia one? The worst part is the authors purport to be informing about rational truths and yet the tone of the articles is juvenile and just plain and simple wrong. Like really wrong. The comment how Japanese is actually a poorly intoned Chinese is so ridiculous it should be obvious. I hate to say it - your generation is the worst humans in history. All you do is watch videos, play games and argue with one another but yet both sides are misinformed, and very low in sophistication, ability or skill. 24.85.236.12 (talk) 14:21, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

How would you improve it? Zero (talk - contributions) 17:12, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
We don't say Japanese is poorly intoned Chinese. What? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 17:20, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
I don't think the BoN is a fluent speaker of English. Palaeonictis Fossil beds 01:13, 14 February 2019 (UTC)

Is there a need to break down the whole document?[edit]

https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Japan&oldid=2184217

I don't think the document of this period is a problem.

Japan is not a country where white people are the mainstream, but it certainly took the same path as Western imperialist countries in the 19th and early 20th centuries of imperialism. It is also clear that Japan is extremely discriminating against women, racism, and ableism.

I personally think that the 'Xenophobia and racism' items, 'Popularity among far-right Westerners' and 'General historical woo' items show the reality of Japanese society itself, and that these items should not be removed.

Japan is a first-world developed country and former imperialist, but it is very conservative, traditional, and popularly nationalism. This is not a racist prejudice against Japan but a very legitimate criticism.--BluePink (talk) 22:42, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I personally don't think it's wrong to call Japan 'extremly right-wing country'. Honestly, I don't know why this phrase was erased. Of course some Wingnut Japanese may be displeased, but no matter what they say, the fact that Japan is quite ultra-conservative cannot be denied.--BluePink (talk) 22:46, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I’m not done with the article and many items will return. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 22:56, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I think the original content should not be deleted carelessly and should be restored immediately. Or I'll repair it myself.--BluePink (talk) 23:03, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

Once I think that the documents should be fixed to the previous edition until Talk is completely closed. In most wikis, when a Talk occurs in a particular document, the narrative is fixed to its previous description. That's why I'll go back to the past.--BluePink (talk) 23:04, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I am not opposed to others adding content to the Japan document, but I am absolutely opposed to erasing the existing content. The existing content points out the conservatism of Japanese society well.--BluePink (talk) 23:10, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Give it some time, BluePink, okay? You can trust Duce for this. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 23:10, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Does that mean you will restore most of the existing content, but change it to a moderate tone that is not aggressive?--BluePink (talk) 23:12, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
But I personally hope that the content stays the same for now.--BluePink (talk) 23:13, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I’ve been doing this for a while. And I’m half-Chinese so trust me, I’m not gonna whitewash Japan. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 23:14, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
You mentioned "whitewash," which, in turn, means you will generously describe Japan because Japanese culture is different from Western culture. It is undeniable that Japan is a very, very conservative country. It is better to judge by Western cultural standards if you think about the life of minorities in Japan. In the first place, the concept of "natural rights" came from the West. The French Revolution was the beginning of a modern state. Northeast Asia is very conservative. This is a clear fact. There is no doubt that Japan is an extreme right-wing country. This is not a 'whitewash' view, but a 'natural rights' view.'--BluePink (talk) 23:51, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Japan is a first-world country and once had a history of colonizing Asian countries in diplomatic partnership with Western countries. But culturally, you're against whitewash? That is the view of the Japanese right wing. The Japanese rightists are diplomatically pro-Western and culturally extreme anti-Western.--BluePink (talk) 23:54, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
That's not what I'm trying to say. I think there is no problem with the contents of the existing document. It's not whitewash, it's just Japan's fucking conservative. Northeast Asia is very conservative and progressive cultural movement has mostly flowed in from the West. On the contrary, the leftists in Northeast Asia are diplomatically anti-Western, but they are more willing to accept Western culture than the right-wing.--BluePink (talk) 23:23, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
So? I’m gonna get to Japan’s politics. I’m improving the article by adding sources and greater detail. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 23:27, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Yeah, just wait and see how it'll look. I'm sure Duce's version will be fine. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 23:31, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
I am putting my position together but I am of the position that Japan document has only fact-based descriptions, and that there are no prejudiced descriptions. You can call me Uncle Tom. However, I did not want to be an Uncle Tom as an autistic person, so I became to dislike Northeast Asian tradition. Do you have any idea how fucking autistic people live in Northeast Asia? To be honest, both South Korea and Japan are extremely 'Wingnut cultures'.--BluePink (talk) 23:34, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I second giving the elk the benefit of the doubt--Hastur! (talk) 23:35, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Can you explain what elk means? I don't know any slang.--BluePink (talk) 23:37, 20 June 2020 (UTC)
Moose--Hastur! (talk) 23:38, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

I'll make it easy for you. Left-wingers in Northeast Asia are diplomatically anti-Western but culturally pro-Western. Right-wingers in Northeast Asia are diplomatically pro-Western but culturally anti-Western. Do you understand what I mean? I admire American and European culture. And Japan is very very conservative.--BluePink (talk) 23:36, 20 June 2020 (UTC)

The fact that Japan is "wingnut" is also acknowledged by some left-liberals in Japan. Some critics say that Japan is still pre-modern. Does this make me white? Actually, it's not much different from white people, the skin color of Northeast Asia.--BluePink (talk) 00:08, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
To put it to extremes... Try living as a woman in Japan. Try living as an autistic person in South Korea. Try living as a black person in China. Frankly, you will feel that United States is better than them. The public debate over black violence by police in the United States is ironically proof that Americans are not conservative. In Northeast Asia, the sense of human rights for minorities is at or below that of U.S. Republican supporters. Have you lived as a minority in Northeast Asia? People who say not to criticize Northeast Asian culture by Western standards are often Majority in Northeast Asia.--BluePink (talk) 00:13, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Westerners need not unconditionally deny their achievements and civilized development. Of course, past imperialist exploitation should reflect on itself, but there is no need to feel guilty even in cultural matters. And Westerners and whites are not synonyms.--BluePink (talk) 00:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Why the fuck do you keep reverting my fucking edits? Do you see the goddamn WIP template? Do you see how much fucking work I put into that history section?Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 00:15, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
This is because almost everything related to Japan's extreme conservatism has been erased. Alt-right likes Japan because Japan is far-right by Western standards. This is not 'whitewash'. The far right in the 21st century cannot be simplified by white supremacy. Japan and Russia are idols of far-rightists around the world.--BluePink (talk) 00:20, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
It's a Work in Progress. That means I'm going to re-add that stuff with more detail and more citations. There's literally no reason for you to be doing this. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 00:23, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Mmm... I got it. I'll trust you for now. Thank you.--BluePink (talk) 00:24, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
Thanks, I'm glad we can come to an agreement. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 00:25, 21 June 2020 (UTC)
I've actually hit the point where I'm gonna do Japan's politics. Trust me, the conservatism and pseudo-historical fuckery will make it back into the article. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 00:28, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────I agree with DuceMoosolini, particularly because of the work-in-progress template being up. You should wait until he's completed editing. After that, @BluePink, if you have specific criticisms, please bring them up again on the talk page. Bongolian (talk) 00:37, 21 June 2020 (UTC)

Done[edit]

Finally done with Japan. The article ended on a much more disturbing note than I thought it would. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 00:22, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

That citation of the Independent Institute, a libertarian think tank, is a bad one.[1] First, the article itself supports the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory. Second, the idea that Japan was importing those minerals in 1940 seems bizarre because it had already invaded and functionally-annexed Manchuria primarily for those mineral resources to feed into its war machine. See Economy of Manchukuo.Wikipedia Raw rubber was probably the main resource that the embargo affected, and which was mainly controlled by other colonial powers. Bongolian (talk) 06:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
As for the Pearl Harbor conspiracy theory, I don't know much because I'm not American. but I am satisfied that Duce has written properly about Japan's extreme conservatism and nationalism. Thank you Duce--BluePink (talk) 06:57, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm glad to hear that you find the article acceptable overall. The conspiracy theory is that President Roosevelt had foreknowledge about the Japanese attack of Pearl Harbor, and thereby allowed US military personnel to be killed unnecessarily. The rationale of the theory is that Roosevelt wanted a war with Japan but did not want to be the aggressor. As with most conspiracy theories, it is lacking in evidence. Bongolian (talk) 07:03, 23 June 2020 (UTC)

Wish the Japan article was less negative.[edit]

Unlike the Australia article, the Japanese article kinda cast Japan in a negative light. Could we place more positivity into the article? BeardOfZeus (talk) 23:58, 9 September 2021 (UTC)

In my personal opinion, the Japanese article is not 'negative', but rather 'objective'. This is because Australia and Japan are different, and Japan is a very extremely conservative country. I strongly oppose glorifying or excessive cultural relativist descriptions of the conservatism of Japanese society. Japan's wingnut tendency should be written rationally.--Umaru16 (talk) 02:36, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
A problem with putting a positive spin on articles, is that it quickly becomes non-missional. That's not to say that there shouldn't be some context and objectivity. Bongolian (talk) 02:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
I agree with you. Therefore, there is no problem with Japanese articles.--Umaru16 (talk) 06:40, 10 September 2021 (UTC)
We can write about the national wildlife, nation's symbolism, culture... BeardOfZeus (talk) 03:02, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

I don't think there's anything wrong with Japanese articles at the moment. Currently, these articles are objective enough.--Umaru16 (talk) 06:42, 10 September 2021 (UTC)