Talk:Motte and bailey
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Always Intentional?[edit]
Even though Motte and Bailey's are often intentional, they don't necessarily need to be. Some cases where they might not be intentional:
- The ambiguity might be subtle enough that speaker himself doesn't see the difference.
- The speaker might believe it is ok to hold both beliefs. This sometimes happens with modern churches, which will teach the literal version of God/Jesus and will also teach a more conceptual version. They'll do this to "cater to different people" or be more "open-minded".
- Perhaps the speaker believes the Motte is an adequate argument for the Bailey, essentially being an appeal to common sense.
Turkeypotpie (talk) 18:37, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
- I'm not sure that the article says it's intentional. It can very well be a subconscious bias or reflex that people have. If you want to clarify along those lines, you are welcome to; we could always use new users to help improve the site. CorruptUser (talk) 20:16, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
List of MaB Arguments?[edit]
So... Do we have a shortlist of MaB examples? CorruptUser (talk) 13:31, 26 August 2017 (UTC)
- ContraPoints just did a video o Jordan Peterson doing this and there's this video from Alt Right playbook https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ui-ArJRqEvU that discusses people using redefinition to make unreasonable things look reasonable and vice versa. Keter (talk) 14:25, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
"He or she" versus singular they[edit]
The formal grammarians probably prefer the former, is there a reason we prefer the latter? ikanreed đBleat at me 21:58, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- That it takes Non-binary gender into account, I guess? RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:08, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Concise and fair. ikanreed đBleat at me 22:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps but we really need to find new pronouns, the "they" slips me up a lot. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 22:34, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Yeah, and people keep trying to, but none of them really stick. RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- That's also true, language is stubborn. --It's-a me,
LeftyGreenMario! 22:37, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- I prefer "they", as it has precedent with the plural "you" having already displaced the singular "thou" in English. Remembering who has what set of pronouns is too complicated for simple-minded me, and if you get offended, I probably don't want to around you longer than I have to anyway. CoryUsar (talk) 00:39, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
- That's also true, language is stubborn. --It's-a me,
- Yeah, and people keep trying to, but none of them really stick. RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:35, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
- Perhaps but we really need to find new pronouns, the "they" slips me up a lot. --It's-a me,
- Concise and fair. ikanreed đBleat at me 22:11, 28 February 2019 (UTC)
Objectivist Example[edit]
Am I correct in believing that the "existence exists" talk of Randians fits into this category of fallacy? On the one hand they can always retreat into the motte of A = A, the tautology that "existence is existence." On the other hand, what they are trying to say or suggest is that SOMETHING exists, and that the existence of something-or-other is a logical necessity, so that the question "why is there something rather than nothing?" is easily answered -- "there is something because A = A." That ontological claim looks like a bailey to me, whereas the tautology is a motte. Fair enough? --Christofurio (talk) 14:06, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
- I don't know, man. It's pretty easy to use this term to describe a lot of things, but I have a hard time seeing that example as anything other than just the most inane and useless tautology. ikanreed đBleat at me 14:58, 19 March 2019 (UTC)
- For all meaningful values of A, A implies Not-A. That is, for A to be something worth pondering, it must be present somewhere and absent somewhere else. Smerdis of Tlön, wekÊ·Ćm teáž±s. 17:03, 19 March 2019 (UTC)