Forum:America as a Christian Nation

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This was originally started as a complaint on Talk:Pseudohistory, but soon got out of track and was moved here (last version before the move).

America Christian Nation

Why is the idea of America as a Christian nation "pseudohistory" when it is so well documented?

Our founding fathers proclaimed that people are endowed by their creator (God) with inalienable rights, Thomas Jefferson.

How can it be Psuedohistory when America was largely Christian when the United States was founded back in the 1800s? How can it be Pseudohistory if America placed so much emphassis on Christianity when America was founded in the 1800s?

How can it be pseudohistory, when it is so well documented that we believe that God gave us a mission to civilize the Savages, i.e. the Indians, the Redskin Savages, all the racist statements that people used to call Indians?

The early American nation was a Christian nation because the majority of Americans in that timeframe were Christians and believed that America was a Christian nation founded on all religions escaping to have a new freedom, away from the church of England.

How can you deny that America was settled by Christian settlers? I suppose it is not pseudohistory to proclaim that America was founded as Christian because the first Americans that settled this continent were Christians. They were Protestant Pilgrim Christians who settled this land to escape persecution. The Quakers founded Pennsylvania as a Quaker state under William Penn?

How can you call this pseudohistory, when it is so true? What, did you think that the people who settled the 13 colonies were Muslims or something?

Maybe America was founded as a Muslim nation? Explain why there are so many churches in rural America or why rural America is largely Christian or why so many Americans put such an emphasis on Christianity as a religion? So how can America not be a Christian nation?

I am not a Klansman for saying it, but unfortunately, it's true. 8 out of every 10 Americans is a Christian. The idea that America is a Christian nation has a basis in fact because even a Muslim would admit that the first American settlers were Christians after they got off the boat? Did you think that they were godless Atheists or what?

It's a well-documented fact, that Christianity established itself before Judaism or Islam did. I'm sure that if the Ottomans settled America, which they didn't, that America would be a Muslim nation. Turkey considers itself secular, but it is a Muslim nation. Why do we call Turkey a Muslim nation, when it calls itself secular? Like America does with the Christian thing? Christianity is such an integral part of our belief system and our beliefs. You swear an oath on the Bible, not the Koran, not the Torah, to tell the truth in court before God, or an elected official gives a prayer for fallen victims of a tragedy, or if you place such an emphasis on the Bible, in such a way to affirm it. How can we NOT be a Christian nation?

How is this idea that America is a Christian nation is pseudohistory, when it is so well documented by offical documents in the Library of Congress or other places? We believed that God gave us the will to settle America and civilize the godless savages. The idea that America is a Christian nation, I'm afraid, is not Pseudohistory, but real history based on the strong beliefs of early America that was so staunchly Christian. I'm afraid that it is NOT pseudohistory at all, and that someone who has an agenda against Christians or American history, should take their nonsense somewhere else, because it is well documented in early beliefs and the elected politicians in the 1800s who believed that God blessed America. Explain why God Bless America is a popular song, when we're not a Christian nation? Explain that for me please! We are SO a Christian nation. I do not care about fundamentalists or anything like that. It is so painfully obvious that if we put such emphasis on Christianity this way, that I'm afraid that we are a Christian nation of many denominations I might add.

So the idea that we are not a Christian nation is erroneous and false. http://www.let.rug.nl/usa/E/manifest/manif2.htm

Explain official beliefs of America and Americans settlers. OVer 90%R of America believed in God in its early founding. This idea that America is not a Christian nation is not true at all, but I'm afraid it's the truth, because it is painfully obvious that we are and no one can deny it. Denying it would be like denying that the Holocaust happened or that Russia is not a Christian country even though Russia places such an emphasis on Orthodox Christian, as does Serbia. Poland is a Christian country, that believed in Catholicism and believes that Catholicism helped defeate the godless Commie Russians. People believe that the Catholic Church in Poland and belief in God defeated Communism. It's a true fact. To believe that America is not Christian is like believing that Turkey is not a Muslim country, even though they officialy pronounce themselves as "secular"

See what I'm saying? It's not pseudohistory and never will be. Just look up early documents in the archives and Library of Congress for more details and info and quit discrediting traditional history and quit denying the obvious that is right in front of your face.

For a country that places so much emphasis on the Bible and Christianity, that says that it is not a Christian country, is just incredible to me because that is denying what's in front of its face. Please check the documents and archives sometime, and stop using Wikipedia as reference source. It's a poor reference source anyway.^{— Unsigned, by: 71.116.34.150 / talk / contribs}

http://nationalhumanitiescenter.org/tserve/nineteen/nkeyinfo/mandestiny.htm Please read this article.

It also was firmly anchored in a long standing and deep sense of a special and unique American Destiny, the belief that in the words of historian Conrad Cherry, “America is a nation called to a special destiny by God.” The notion that there was some providential purpose to the European discovery and eventual conquest of the land masses “discovered” by Christopher Columbus was present from the beginning. Both the Spanish and the French monarchs authorized and financed exploration of the “New World” because, among other things, they considered it their divinely appointed mission to spread Christianity to the New World by converting the natives to Christianity. C This was a belief among early Americans that America was a Christian country settle the western United States and make it Christian for the purposes of settlement. America was staunchly Christian in the 1800s and the Founding Fathers knew it and could not deny it, otherwise they'd have a revolt on their hands if they did.

It was considered a divine mission by early Americans to spread the word of God to the natives. The Americans believed that it was their God-given right to settle the West, that God granted them the Western United States for settlement. The Indians were godless heathens in their eyes. The Americans placed such a strong emphasis on it. The Gettysburg address mentions God in it. The idea that America as a Christian country is pseudohistory is ridiculous, because it is so well-documented and blatantly obvious to anyone who does any serious research on the topic and doesn't troll around on a particular belief system. Because it is true that America was founded in a way, as a Christian nation. Not totally of course, but one cannot omit the relgious aspect of early America and how religion had such an impact on early America and how religion was a big influence HUGE influence on early America. I am not a Puritan, i'm just stating the facts here, because it is obvious that one cannot omit the religious aspect of early America, because there was a HUGE religious aspect to early America. No one can deny that, because it has been documented by the Library of Congress, National Archives, State Archives. Mormonism had a part in founding Utah in the 1800s and Mormons are strong identified with Utah. Christians settled Hawaii in the 1890s. I'm afraid that the idea that the idea of America being a Christian nation is NOT pseudohistory because it is real history that is so carefully documented, that mainstream historians would not have any trouble denying it. Conservative historians are mainstream and believe it and do not mean the Oprah type sensationalists like David Barton. I mean REAL historians in real conservative colleges. It is so there. Midwest is staunchly Christian and so is the Southern United States and denying that America is Christian is insulting those groups of people. America is a Christian nation and oen cannot deny that. I guess discrediting the truth is a full-time occupation thanks to people with anti-religious agendas that hate the topic of religion in any way shape of form that put the wool over their eyes. Denying the truth, does not make it right. John says the truth will make you free. We put such an emphasis on teh Bible and religion in America in many parts of America and quote the Bible to comfort, to guide the sick and accommodate different Christian beliefs in some communities and hospitals, that I'm afarid the idea that America is a Christian nation, whether you like it or not. It's the truth and you cannot deny it. Period.

That you. America is a Christian nation. Period. End of discussion.^{— Unsigned, by: 71.116.34.150 / talk / contribs}

Did you notice in your very first quote, you had to ADD something to the quote, to get it to say what you wanted it to say. Creator is not "God/YHWH/Christian". creator is just what it is. Maybe we are a muslim nation. or an Native American Nation. or a Egyptian nation. This is why we say it's "psuedo-history". En attendant Godot 23:49, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

How can that be? I think that implying a Creator implies God and ENDOWED by THEIR CREATOR, which do you think he meant Allah? I think it's clear that he meant God! What do you want a discussion on Creationism? This is an example of Creationism to believe that God is a creator of people with equal rights. That IS NOT pseudohistory. That is well-documented history and I am pretty sure that he meant God in that document. Who else was he reffering to? Allah? Buddha? Gaia? Or some other deity. Name the deity that Jefferson was referring to. Was he referring to a non-exist atheist-created deity? NO, He was REFERRING TO GOD! END OF STORY!

It's not. There were NO Muslims in early America. How come preachers had so much influence in early America at the town level and government level? How come anti-Catholic crusades were common in early America? How come religious people were anle to ban alchool as part of Prohibition in the 1920s without the impact of religion? It is impossible to talk about American history without the impact of Christianity and Christians on American history because American history was written by christians and not Muslims or Bhuddists. Jews had a role in early America, but most everyone in America admitted to being Christian because of its large impact on society and its huge emphasis on it. Being an atheist or agnostic was SIMPLY NOT an option back then. American was and is a Christian nation. End of story.^{— Unsigned, by: 71.116.34.150 / talk / contribs}

Wrong. For the briefest rebuttal possible, see Article VI, par. 3 of the Constitution. See also the Jefferson Bible. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 00:04, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Jefferson was a deist, not a Christian. He did not believe in miracles, the trinity or the divinity of Jesus. He had respect for his moral teachings, but that is it. When he spoke of a god, he was referring to what he called 'Nature's God'in the declaration of independence. David L. Holmes has a book on the faiths of the founding fathers which goes into immense detail. You should probably check it out. The United States was founded on the principle of individual liberty, not on Christianity. --Danfly (talk) 00:14, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

handy edit button #1

@BoN

TL;DR...Article VI paragraph 3.
Yes, most people was Christians what became Americans; yes, Christianity was a prime factor in the formation of the institutions of the nation; the treaty of Tripoli aside, why ain't there a Dept of doctrinal purity bureau...Please realize that Christianity of the late eighteenth century had come through the ravages of the Reformation, being freed from the shackles of the Bishop of Rome all sorts of people were proclaiming the "one true church" for themselves...the Deist founders (as well as their dyed-in-the-wool Christian brethren) didn't want the foundling nation to succumb to a religious war soon after the political was finished. C®ackeЯ

Individual liberty is NOT a religion. Individual liberty is an ideal to be a free person, but it is not a religion. America was founded on Christianity, but not by Jeffereson and many states believed in a God that they had God-given rights to settle and colonize early America and settling America. Deism is still a belief in God, but with reason. Jefferson still believed in God, so therefore he was a Christian. Deism is belief in a God, but with a different belief of reason. TJ still believed in God, though. Nice try. Deism Does not mean a lack of faith in God, but belief in God. Acknowledging God and believing in a god based on the Bible, is still Christianity. Jefferson was a Christian, pure an simple. Either way, Jefferson was a Christian and they believed in a God. Belief in a God, is professing a religion or a religious belief. Belief in a God, while acknowledging the Christian God, is still Christianity. America believed in Christianity in the 1800s as a main religion. Jefferson officialy founding America is relevant, but irrelevant compared to the rest of Christian America. Jefferson did not want to offend his audience throughout the 13 colonies or to alienate people from the cause by believing in a fixed religion. He believed Americans were free to choose religions because he believed in a free America, but that does not diminish the fact that America was founded by Christian settlers in the 1600s and 1700s. Jefferson was a Christian. Jefferson using the phrase "almighty God" 00:44, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

"Individual liberty is an ideal to be a free person, but it is not a religion."
Just so! but individual liberty is anathema to Christianity. People are free to do as they choose so long as in their choosing they choose to obey God and the authorities He has placed in their respective positions.
Okay, what say we accept that American is a "Christian nation" what would be the upshot of that?...how can we make it a "good Christian" nation? 01:05, 5 August 2011 (UTC) C®ackeЯ

Even if Jefferson was a Christian that wouldn't make a difference, and even if America was somehow founded on "Christian Values" it wouldn't really make any difference because America was also founded on separation of church and state. So, I also don't see what your point is. Beck (talk) 01:11, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

If individual liberty is anathema to Chrisitanity, then come Moses escaped slavery or how come the early Christians desired freedom from persecution by the Romans in its early incarnations? Individual liberty is not the enemy to Christianity because many Christians believed in freedom because they were being persecuted by the Romans and the Romans tried to silence them and Christianity was born out of persecution by the Romans. Individual liberty is not the enemy of Christianity because many Christians believe in liberty and sought to make America a free nation for all people. Christianity was born out of persecution and desired to be free by preaching the Gospel to millions. It was because of Roman peresecution that Christians wanted to be free and desired freedom to be free people from Roman rule. Many took up arms to free themselves from the Roman. The Bible talks about people fighting for freedom from the Romans. The Bible talks about Roman persecution and how the early Christians overcame persecution to be a free people. Christianity desired to be an offshoot from Judaism, because the people wanted their own religion. Individual liberty is not as enemy of Chrisitanity. Individual liberty is the enemy of tyrants and people like Caesar who persecuted thm. You see, Christians wanted to be free because they wanted to practice their religion freely from Roman persecution. That too is well-documented. Christianity is founded, partly, on freedom. Theocracices and people who twisted their religion were destroyed by people for their own evil agendas. Just read Machiavelli and the Prince sometime about people who claimed to be men of God, but were as much sinners as they were religious. God cursed man with sin, but in the end, he could redeem himself in the eyes of God and better himself as a free man, which is what Christianity believes. Christianity is not entirely hostile to individual freedom, when many early Christians embraced it and fought the hated Romans with the Scripture of God in their hearts that they loved so much. Christianity became turned Rome into the Holy Roman Empire and Rome embraced it throught Constantine the Great and his spread of Orthodoxy, but edorsing religion back then meant legitimacy and strength and powerful warriors to win battles with religions in those days. So religion was an important tool then and now, because people believed in the powerful belief of an Almighty God who promised them greatness and strength and guided free people on the path of God, and religion was hijacked too, I know, but that IS THE foundation of Christian. The truth will make you free. Telling the truth makes you free. That is not pseudohistory, either. Indiviudal libery and Christianity are not entirely opposed either. Just look at John Locke.

http://www.piney.com/Lockereasonableness.html

"Theologians cannot find God by themselves. Therefore John Locke said that God reveald His Word through Jesus Christ, and that this revelation is reasonable to the common mind. He never taught that Christianity can be found by human reasoning. This does not prevent distorting John Locke to distort those who read him.

All united in a belief. If they had believed that God wanted them to be, the colonists, did, then how can individual liberty be hostile to Christianity anyway? Think about it.

71.116.34.150 (talk) 01:30, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

' Jefferson still believed in God, so therefore he was a Christian'. So all Muslims, Jews, Zoroastrians, Sikhs and even Pantheists are Christians? I agree with you that individual liberty and Christianity are not mutually opposed though, since you can interpret the religion almost any way you want as long as you accept the divinity of Jesus, or that he was at least a prophet of God(as some unitarians do). --Danfly (talk) 10:49, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

brxbrxbrxbrxbrxbrx-

Jefferson never was a Zoroastrian or a Jew or a Muslim. In fact, Muslims believe that we believe in the same God. The Koran refers to Jews and Christians as "People of the Book" and that. The Koran borrows from the Bible. I did not say that all Muslims, Jews, or Sikhs, were Christians. We all each believe in a God, though disagree on methodology. In some cases, affirmation of belief in a God is enough to be a Christian. Jefferson still believed in a God, through Deism. Deism still believes in a God. Jefferson was not an atheist either. brxbrxbrxbrxbrxbrx-

"affirmation of belief in a God is enough to be a Christian". You had better elaborate on what those cases are. No one in the entire discussion has even suggested that Jefferson was an atheist. If you say x believed in god, therefore he was a Christian, you are saying that all Monotheists are Christians. I don't know why I'm typing here because it looks like you deliberately went out of your way to create an argument consisting entirely of blatant non sequiturs, probably to see how long you could keep it up for. No thinking person would consider 'x believed in God, therefore x was a Christian' to be a valid argument. --√2 (talk) 16:18, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

As always...

What part of...

“”Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.

...do people not understand? Really, I'd like to know. ADK^{...I'll bang your hailstone!} 18:48, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

The part that says, right there in black and white, that creator is the Christian god, and not some other godlike being. so there!En attendant Godot 19:50, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Also as always...

What part of the 1796 Treaty of Tripoli...

“”[T]he Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion...

...do people not understand either? Blue (pester) 02:55, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

ANSWER: the government may not have been founded on Christianity

but the nation (i.e. the people) were predominantly Christian at the time therefore, America was (and probably still is) a Christian nation if we are talking about the beliefs of the majority (which I think is what most people think of when they hear this phrase)

the beliefs of the population do in fact affect the laws and the culture and by the way, until the selective incorporation of the bill of rights, it did NOT apply to state and city governments

"The nation" was also predominantly white at the time. It was predominantly British at the time, too. Is America a white nation? That's certainly what follows from your logic. Is America a British nation? Hardly, and hardly. Blue (is useful) 02:42, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

nation != citizensDissidentRage (talk) 15:05, 10 November 2012 (UTC)

So much TLDR and Batshit Craziness!

MY EYES!!! 74.89.192.173 (talk) 22:01, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Firstly, this rebuttal is not intended to offend merely to offer argumentation, I will attempt to provide questions and answers to each of your statements in affirmation of the topic of America being a Christian nation. 1. Where is it documented? 2. Why must “their creator” imply that Jefferson was referring to the Christian idea of God? Furthermore, Thomas Jefferson whom most historians regard as a deist and in many writings openly denounced Christianity would more than likely not have been referring to the Christian God. 3. The mission “to civilize the savages”, where was this documented that we largely held as a nation a belief to Christianize the Native Americans? The Spanish were the only group of people to fully attempt to do so. More often than not, the American motives of Manifest Destiny were to displace the “savages”, not incorporate them into our culture. 4. The continent of North America was certainly settled by Christian settlers, but all of these setters had died long before the American Revolution. 5. See 6. 6. America is home to many Christians, the prevalence of churches is evidence as such, the original colonies were also founded by those who were Christians, Christians who questioned the virtues of their prior religious organization. But America is not founded on the basis of majority rule, it is founded the virtues of freedom, America is not a Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu or Christian nation, but a free nation. 7. Regardless of the religion of the settlers of America, they were not the founding fathers, nor were they the drafters of the Constitution, true they had many beliefs that were passed down, religious and otherwise, but their impact, was that of religious freedom, not for religious oppression. 8. As the majority of this statement has been argued I will not reiterate however, there is no requirement in any facet of the government, be it taking an oath of office or an oath in court, that you must have a Bible. People are free to make their oath on a Koran, a Torah, or simply affirm that they are telling the truth. As a federal employee, my oath of office was sworn in as in affirmation, and not on a Bible, so this statement is misleading and false. 9. As the only new evidence in this statement is referring to the phrase and song “God Bless America” that phrase was not coined until 1918 when it was penned by Irving Berlin. 10. Manifest Destiny, which is the part of the article by which I assume you are referring, was more about imperialism and the US taking more land, it even says this in the article you linked. 11. This statement about other nations doesn’t affirm your argument, nor does it add any new evidence. 12. What early documents? You have failed to present any. 13. Again, I believe you should refer to them, because in my research very little comes up.^{— Unsigned, by: 50.15.131.16 / talk / contribs}

Edit: apologies, I thought you were the OP BON and skimmed your massive paragraph. I've deleted my previous comment. ^{ONE / TALK} 10:44, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Stating the obvious

As the OP BON ironically pointed out vis a vis Turkey (and as is also legally and explicitly the case with Spain), just because the majority of a states population may belong to a certain religion, does not mean that state is itself a member of that religion. Regardless of how some Americans (past or present) may feel the USA should stand for a religion the formal government position is unequivolcal on the matter, as expressed in the First Amendment and the Treaty of Triploi, and as clarified and reaffirmed by the Supreme Court on numerous occassions. -- 10:23, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

No.

America was not founded in the 1800's. This shows lack of knowledge of history, and disqualifies the statements on matters of 'psuedohistory.' Whether or not the United States was started as a christian nation or not is rather meaningless, the freedom of people to believe as they wish remains in any case, as it should. If America were to be declared a 'christian nation' the core beliefs of a nation based on liberty for each individual would be violated. This is not how the nation was founded. Instead, each person was given their own personal choice in the matter of religion. Therefore, America was not founded as a christian nation.

I have trouble understanding this 'statement': "This idea that America is not a Christian nation is not true at all, but I'm afraid it's the truth." This appears to say that America is a christian nation but also America is not a christian nation.

Also, don't say that Wikipedia is an invalid source when the bible is continually used as a source though it has absolutely no proof. There is no evidence of the truth of christianity, or of any religion, however, there is sufficient evidence for all of science.

Forget history what about the future?

I'm more worried that the good ol' US of A will be taken over by Christian fundamentalists & become a theocracy. They have been stacking the courts & republican party for years & are gaining more & more power.Cwon (talk) 10:15, 8 November 2011 (UTC)

There is no such thing as a Godless Atheist

There is, however, such thing as a deity-laden theist. --Sethpeck (talk) 20:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Um...

If we are a Christian Nation, please explain this. Also, many of our founder, such as Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Franklin, were indeed non-Christian (they were Deists). Remember that the American Revolution happened after the Age of Englightenment, which marked a significant decline in Christianity and a significant rise in secularism and (yes) atheism. So I would not be surprised if a decent number of Americans at the time of Revolution were indeed atheists or deists. Mr. Anon (talk) 06:14, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Very few people here would disagree with any of that. We have a mainspace article cataloging most of the arguments people come up with on this subject. ListenerX^TalkerX 06:19, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

Not disagreeing that the Christian Nation mythos is bull, but you left out the Great Awakening. The Enlightenment was in large part confined to aristocrats, the intelligentsia, and other ivory tower types until later in the 18th century. Nebuchadnezzar (talk) 06:24, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

nuh-uh. God(ot)didit.^{— Unsigned, by: WaitingforGodot / talk / contribs}

Intesting... Still, there are records of Muslims living in the United States at the time, and the Founding Fathers made clear statements that they were to be accepted equally. Mr. Anon (talk) 17:36, 3 December 2011 (UTC)

sorry not true

The founding fathers deliberately made the constitution as a secular document

check out these quotes

"Whenever we read the obscene stories, the voluptuous debaucheries, the cruel and torturous executions, the unrelenting vindictiveness with which more than half the Bible is filled, it would be more consistent that we called it the word of a demon than the word of God. It is a history of wickedness that has served to corrupt and brutalize mankind." -Thomas Paine, The Age of Reason

"The way to see by faith is to shut the eye of reason. Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." -Benjamin Franklin

"I have examined all the known superstitions of the world, and I do not find in our particular superstition of Christianity one redeeming feature. They are all alike, founded on fables and mythology. Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned. What has been the effect of this coercion? To make one half the world fools and the other half hypocrites; to support roguery and error all over the earth." -Thomas Jefferson

"What has been [Christianity's] fruits? More or less, in all places, pride and indolence in the clergy; ignorance and servility in the laity; in both, superstition, bigotry and persecution." -James Madison

"There is nothing which can better deserve our patronage than the promotion of science and literature. Knowledge is in every country the surest basis of public happiness." -George Washington

and as others have posted the Treaty of Tripoli

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

a common objection to the treaty of Tripoli is that article 11 didn't appear in the Arabic version. However the English version with article 11 was the one that was ratified and signed by the president.

Nogods4you (talk) 05:16, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Although the constitution was undoubtedly a secular document, religious people have proven to us that it is a simple task to

spout quotes out of context if it serves them or ignore parts of a whole. Smalltoejoe (talk) 14:10, 12 September 2014 (UTC)

They were deists!

The founding fathers were deists. There is a legal separation of church and state, so you can't promote one religion over another. They criticized organised religion, they were not Christian. If America was a Christian nation, shouldn't we be selling our daughters into sex slavery?--Anastronomer (talk) 19:01, 17 February 2013 (UTC)

Not a Christian nation: a Protestant nation.

Every argument that shows that America is a "Christian nation" actually shows that America is a Protestant nation. The ideologies that moved the Founding Fathers were born in those very Protestant quarrels, the English Civil Wars and the Restoration. So were their actual opinions on religious enthusiasm, which were a bit more nuanced than the "Christian nation" advocates suggest. The idea of burgherly or agrarian republics was itself a Protestant and Northern European, largely Germanic, phenomenon. Elected kingships, trial by jury, the 'right to bear arms' and the idea of the 'free man' are ideas out of Germanic paganism that also resonated with the more strongly reformist Protestants, and were incorporated specifically into Presbyterianism. Attentioj to this stuff doesn't fit right-wing political or religious agendas, unfortunately. - Smerdis of Tlön (talk) 03:49, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't the Mary-land Colony established as a Roman Catholic colony with Baltimore being where the Cathedral of the clony was originally locatted? - Benjamin Franklin 50.153.107.15 (talk) 16:14, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Why does it even matter a couple hundred years down the line?

Even if, for argument's sake, the USA was founded as a Christian Nation, that doesn't make any kind of legitimate case for it continuing to be one, sort of an 'is/ought problem'. Many who tout this claim don't seem to have a problem with the US military fiddling around with other countries' political foundations. Can't they all please stop continously shouting about 'muh freedoms' while trying to design a country's direction, to the letter, after what they think a bunch of people who owned slaves thought? Polite Timesplitter ^{Cultural loneliness is a right pain} 13:17, 20 July 2013 (UTC)

IMHO, it's somewhat important insofaras rule of law and jurisprudence. I don't think the courts should decide rule of law questions, like what the first amendment to the US constitution means, merely on the basis of what the justices think makes for a good society. I rather think that original meaning, original intent, original common understanding of the law's effect, and so on, have some bearing on applying a law. ... As for the separate question of what kind of law do we want? I agree then that the opinions of a bunch of guys 300 years ago isn't at all compelling (though I may cite some simply as a means of brevity). EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:19, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

It's useful to squash the tired myth that "the past was better. Look how much it was back when the christians were in charge. Blah blah blah." It's good to remind people of the religious intolerance that happened then, and how the constitution is one of our best defenses against that, and that the people it was to protect was christians from christians! EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course, the truth itself is good and useful. It's the biggest gripe with religious people, and those with belief in belief. It's hard if not impossible to try and predict what people with false factual beliefs will do. It's hard to predict what false factual beliefs will not lead to harm, and which will. And finally tolerating false factual beliefs in one area of our life helps corrode critical thinking, which will hurt us in other areas. EnlightenmentLiberal (talk) 22:35, 29 July 2013 (UTC)

First time adding something, hope this is how you do it.

Personally I don't understand what the fuss about America being founded as a Christian nation is. If so, great. If not, great. What point are we trying to prove here? I don't see what gain either side will...gain if they prove it was or was not founded on God. What we need to realize, is that many of the amendments and documents ARE based on Christian principles, teachings of God... Also, we need to realize that America is no longer a Christian nation, do you think Gay marriage is Christian? Getting high is Christians? THe freakign porn and music industry is Christian? America is in moral decline... God is getting swept aside... Of course, the Bible said this would happen, in the end times, right before the anti-Christ will come....^{— Unsigned, by: ‎50.178.78.153 / talk / contribs}

Setting aside the myriad of bullshit you've got going on in this post, for someone pulling out the "what does either side gain from proving it" argument, you have absolutely nothing to gain from what you're trying to prove. Ikanreed (talk) 19:52, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

It never fails to puzzle me when a professed believer of a teacher whose main tenants were "treat all people well" and "don't judge others" sees moral decline because the nation is treating more people well and judging less. Cat Not Included (talk) 22:39, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

I wasn't arguing with anyone. I was saying, honestly, no underlying schemes to prove some point or something, seriously, I want to know...What is this trying to prove? someone want to inform me?

I can address that. The secularity of government is important in the context of evaluating the appropriateness of government behaviors(i.e. whether it should punish people for nonsensical things the bible declares crimes, like eating shellfish or as you suggest, being gay). Typically bigots use the "Christian Nation" excuse to promote laws that are actively hostile to outsiders, frequently atheists and Muslims(60 years ago it was Jews too, but the retconned it to "JudeoChristian"). There's no legal or constitutional precedent for this, and a lot of good reasons to reject it, but the flawed reasoning exists. But again, it's got no actual basis outside saying it's true or waffling about who was the majority of those living in the Americas at the time(ignoring the natives, of course). It's not a good way to run a democracy, it's not a good way to run a country in general. Ikanreed (talk) 20:43, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Is the first amendment Christian? Certainly violates one of the commandments. Is wearing clothes of different weaves of fiber Christian? -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 21:34, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Well, the first amendment is definitely Christian, and it doesn't violate any of the commandments that I know of.^{— Unsigned, by: Pits Brazil / talk / contribs}

The implication being that you don't know the first commandment. Ikanreed (talk) 17:51, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances. - See more at: http://constitution.findlaw.com/amendment1.html#sthash.kthsBoUJ.dpuf

So..Which commandment?? Pitzy 19:50, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

I've rebolded my statement. Ikanreed (talk) 20:11, 14 January 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, dyslexic. Pitzy 18:25, 15 January 2015 (UTC)

The idea of America as a Christian Nation is bullshit, the Constitution guarantees freedom of religion. That means all religions not just your own.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 19:03, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD: Good Friday

Many of the US Founding Fathers were Freemasons including the three most important Revolutionaries representing the three most important colonies: Benjamin Franklin (Grand Master Mason of PA), George Washington (GMM VA & Continental Army), and John Hancock (GMM MA). "Masons encode everything!" - History Channel. July 4, 1776 was the BIGGEST code ever laid down in history! GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD: Good(7__4) Friday(74) when Jesus(74=J10+E5+S19+U21+S19) was nailed on(74) the Cross(74=C3+R18+O15+S19+S19). There's much more to the GOD=7_4 algorithm/code than just Simple(6,74) English(7,74) Gematria(8,74) and 'the key'(74) of A=1, B=2... Z=26. Please see http://GOD704.wikia.com . - Benjamin Franklin 50.153.107.15 (talk) 16:30, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, can you translate this into English? Google Translate isn't helping. Super ^{Dude,What does mine say? Sweet!} 19:02, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

It's a lot of Numerology). If you turn each letter into an integer based on it's location in the alphabet (like OP says, A=1, B=2, C=3, etc.) you get some correlations that they happen to believe are important, when all it is proof of is just crazy coincidence (cf., the Bible Code, the Lincoln-JFK correlations). Side note: There is no consensus on the exact date of Jesus's crucifixion (assuming it's a historical event); 4/7/30 appears relatively arbitrary. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 18:16, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I'd say "relatively arbitrary" is quite an understatement as regards the crucifixion (if it's historical). The one thing connected to it, namely the "crucifixion darkness", that might draw on anything like external evidence yields a series of possible dates based on solar eclipses (I disregard the claims about it not being a solar eclipse since this introduces a whole extra level of special pleading, not to mention magic) and none of them match 4/7/30 (two of the best bets are 24 November, 29 CE and 3 April, 33 CE). Of course even this doesn't tally with the timing given in the NT (no eclipses can occur on Passover), so even this slim hope of linking the crucifixion and the historical record may very well be in vain. ScepticWombat (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

I like how he ignores the O in god, the 15th letter, and treating it as zero and the 30 comes sub-rectally. I mean, DOG (D4, O15, G7) could mean the great and wonderful dog came to Earth to spread their message on 4/15/2007. I certainly feel better being around their wagging. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 19:09, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

A waggly tail is surely a sign from DOG. ScepticWombat (talk) 19:27, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Outstanding. Who's a clever fellow?!?!!!!. Who is?!!?? You are! Now please to twist the numbers so they proclaim a cold nose as a mark of health. You may selectively ignore vowels, since they get such short shrift in abjads. Our new friend from 50.153 was clearly applying eir analysis to G*d, and rightfully ignoring the splat character in the middle, as an errant modern confection. CamelCasePragmatist (talk) 19:51, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

Given enough time and inclination anyone can use numerology to justify anything. Especially when ignoring letters and making things up entirely are allowed :-) Blessed be the one who does not lick themselves for 20 minutes in front of company, or drug their bum on the rug. So sayeth the Dog Awoof. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 21:52, 22 June 2015 (UTC)

SuperDupe: "They only thing worse than being an idiot is being proud of it." If you can't follow the simplest code of A=1, B=2... Z=26, then you are truly an 949020.

Noir LeSable: Wrong, there is no subjective numerology in the GOD=7_4 algorithm/code, it's objective. There Are No Coincidences, there are crazy atheists that think that everything is random. Friday 4/7/30 is the date of the Crucifixion of Jesus that the Roman Catholic Church agrees on and the Romans ought to know. You ignored the Freemasons encoding GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th. Is that because you're (A) ignorant of the Freemasons, (B) they don't fit into your atheist/randomness agenda, or (C) both? - Benjamin Franklin (talk) 17:42, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

By all means, keep on spouting nonsense. It's hilarious. 141.134.75.236 (talk) 17:45, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Anonymous coward: I see you chosen the age-old method of attack-the-messenger. 1191980125. Benjamin Franklin (talk) 18:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Eh, .236 is far from anonymous around here. You get used to him. --Maxus (talk) 18:09, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Just to confirm, how does the RCC know the accurate date of the crucifixion? Just because they have "Roman" in their name it doesn't mean they have any special knowledge from Ancient Rome. Certainly no evidence persists pointing to that date.--SpecialFFrog (talk) 18:12, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

No, no, you misunderstand, Benjamin Franklin. I'm not attacking you, I want to encourage you. This nonsense you spout is very entertaining. Keep up the good work! 141.134.75.236 (talk) 18:23, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Everyone: Note the power(77) of the Christ(77=C3+H8+R18+I9+S19+T20) as GOD=7_4, 7/4=July 4th or 7 April 30 AD: Good Friday attracts many demons! Benjamin Franklin (talk) 18:08, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm well aware of the Freemasons, but I'm even more aware of Apophenia. Do you have any proof that it was a deliberate encoding?

Eh, Tell you what: Explain to me how Breaking Bad (2+18+5+1+11+9+14+7+2+1+4=74), Dutch beef (4+21+20+3+8+2+5+5+6=74), Jupiter's moon Ganymede (7+1+14+25+13+5+4+5=74), current Senegalese president Macky Sall's bed (19+1+12+12+19+2+5+4=74), and a locally-owned Pittsburgh eatery known as "The Game Cafe" (20+8+5+7+1+13+5+3+1+6+5=74), are related to all this, and I might start believing you. Might. ℕoir LeSable (talk) 19:55, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

This is crazy. It's so bad even David Iche's forum is getting spammed with this stuff and thinks it's looney tunes. Seems to be a single person cyclically spamming various forums to promote the ideas in his book. Get people interested in the idea, sell more books, and make $$. Otherwise this spamming spree doesn't make much sense. -EmeraldCityWanderer (talk) 20:57, 23 June 2015 (UTC)