Talk:Christophobia

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This article requires attention for the following reason(s): While it explains how Christophobia is usually not a problem in most of the Western world, the article fails to cover actual cases of Christophobia elsewhere in the world. Tagged since May 2024

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Christophobia vs Islamophobia

According to one user "Be aware that Christophobia and persecution of Christians are not the same thing". How is Christophobia not the same as Islamophobia when they can both lead to the same outcome. What persecution does a Christian have to suffer before it can be termed "Christophobia"? There is a clear double standard between the two articles, and I fear I've run afoul of the Thought Police. ^{— Unsigned, by: BirdWord / talk / contribs}

If you want to be taken seriously, try not immediately shouting "Thought Police!" whenever someone disagrees with you. I challenge you to find any online community which sits silently by and does nothing while someone adds material to an article which goes against its message. Talk it out here, and if your edit is worth it, you can add it. Okay? DuceMoosolini^{Your friendly RW dictator moderator} 06:10, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

While I don't think you were being literal, I didn't shout "Thought Police!" whenever someone disagreed with me, only after three people keep undoing what I considered valid examples but even then I didn't add it until a moderator got in on it and edit-locked the page. I admit, I have also heard this site has a double standard against Christianity (especially after seeing the Islamophobia page in comparison to this one) and may have overreacted. I would like to add examples of persecution Christians have suffered to this page, since Christophobia is a real thing just like Islamophobia (as evidenced by people with banners like "Burn churches, not queers" or those "bad religion" T-shirts which only deface the Christian cross or more violent actions like the Sutherland Springs Church Shooting). I request that the examples I listed re-added to the page, and that work be done on this page to make a more informative discussion of Christophobia just like the Islamophobia page does for that subject (it also touches on misuse of the term Islamophobia, so misuse of the term "Christophobia" can still be covered here). Not to mention the term "Christophobia" is starting to gain traction and credibility after events like the horrific Sri Lanka Easter bombings - the Christchurch shooting was called Islamophobia for less - so what do you make of my ideas? User:BirdWord 00:27, 28 April 2019

If the term "Christophobia" becomes widely used by people who are risking their lives by being Christians or if it becomes widely used by academics and the mainstream media in referring to those people, then this page will need to be substantially rewritten. At the moment, the term seems to be mostly used by a bunch of whiny arseholes who think the evil librulz are behind a conspiracy that's preventing them from saying, "Merry Christmas". As I said before, you are doing no favours to people who were murdered because of their religion by lumping them together with those twats. Spud (talk) 14:47, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

So why does the article say Christophobia is a real thing if it's a term used by people you claim are conspiracy theorists looking to blame everything on "evil liberals"? If you're going to acknowledge it's a real thing there should be examples. Besides, even atheists like Richard Dawkins (who, iirc, was once considered a hero by this site) and Sargon of Akkad (in this video with the similar title "Christianophobia", as seen here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FNhC5gq8AQ0&t=1s ) have acknowledged anti-Christian double standards and discrimination are on the rise. BirdWord (talk) 18:51, 19 May 2019

@BirdWord I have said this already. Yes, there are Christians whose lives are in danger simply because they are Christians. And that's terrible. But the term "Christophobia" is not yet widely used to refer to the persecution those people face either by the mainstream media or by mainstream academia. Maybe one day it will be. And if that happens, then this article will have to be substantially rewritten. But that hasn't happened yet. As of right now, the word "Christophobia" is mostly used by a bunch of wankers who think the evil liberals want to make it illegal to say "Merry Christmas". And saying that a word is legitimate because Sargon of Akkad uses it is a not an argument that's going to convince anybody around here. Spud (talk) 09:10, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

I agree. I think that we should expand the page with instances of actual Christophobia instead of briefly talking about it in one sentence while the rest of the article talks about right-wing Christians complaining about false persecution. TheEOE (talk) 15:44, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

"As Christians, we have a right to treat certain people differently." - Ted Haggard — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:32, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

...yet atheists do not. God, what a hypocrite. --2001:14BB:80:344:A148:BD28:A30E:838A (talk) 17:35, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

...yet atheists do not.

Like who, exactly? TheEOE (talk) 19:29, 27 April 2019 (UTC)

@TheEOE I have a feeling BoN's comment here was either really poorly worded or they're a deliberate troll. Pick your poison. — Oxyaena ^Harass 07:24, 28 April 2019 (UTC)

I think discussing Christianphobias in the United States, Europe, South Korea, etc. is really terrible. However, in the Middle East and India,, Christian phobias are real. In the Middle East, indigenous Christians are rather a social minority on the level of Muslims in the Western world.--Gracchi (talk) 10:13, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

The anaversion to Christians in some parts of the Middle East and India is obviously serious, and I think the world's media and human rights groups should pay attention to it.--Gracchi (talk) 10:21, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Christians feel oppressed when they can't oppress others. Drink! — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:44, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

Well

Then Islamophobia can't be real either. Your site is literally just bullying Christians for their beliefs. I hope your agenda is just satirical. Look around yourselves and maybe get off the TV for a bit, and you'll see that the most persecuted group in this world are Christians, even Wikipedia admits it. 195.29.219.147 (talk) 09:48, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

For the umpteenth time, nobody is denying that persecution of Christians is a real thing. But it's not normally called Christophobia. The word Christophocia is just used by a bunch of whiny arseholes who don't like living in a secular world and who haven't got a fucking clue what it's like to risk death just because of their religion. Spud (talk) 11:03, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

Majority religions persecute those who don't have the same religion as them all over the world all the time. This is nor being denied - it's an obvious truth. It's almost one of the defining aspects of religions.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 12:16, 7 June 2020 (UTC)

I am afraid it is NOT always irrational

There is nothing real or objective on this site. Are Muslims being murdered in Christian countries? No they are not. Are Christians being murdered in Muslim countries? Yes, they are, and so are LGBTQ's. I understand why you don't like Christianity, but there is no reason to generalize Conservatives and Christians, I do not generalize Atheists either and I do not think it is a good idea to divide between Conservatives and Liberals. I myself would be more of a "Demolican" or "Repubcrat", somewhere between centre left and centre right. I however do not like how it is said by the media that all cultures are equal. I do not agree with Capitalism either tho, there is not just Fascism, Socialism and Capitalism. I am simply American and I think the division that are lead by both you and Conservapedia need to stop. It is generalizing people and forbidding them to stand for their country and family and even worse, it forbids them to have their own personality. It should not be left VS right. Rather centrist VS extremist. Like Gerry Rafferty said, "clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, here I am."

PS: I do not believe America and Europe shouldn't accept immigrants, but we need to be more selective. Integration is the key. Everyone should live there where he fits in. I do not want all world to look the same. It would be weird if we suddenly had an Eiffel Tower in Wisconsin or a Taj Mahal in Norway. I do sincerely hope that you see I am not here to troll. I am just am a critical thinker (and when you ask about my religion, I am more deistic) who does not accept any mainstream ideology. I hate nothing more than having to talk to narrow minded people, which are sadly common on both Christian and Atheist sides. 217.237.149.152 (talk) 21:00, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

Generally speaking, most Islamic culture dominated countries around the world are fundamentalist and often rather terrible -- it's hard to think of an example of "liberal Islam" even in modest terms (perhaps Malaysia comes closest these days, but it's not that great, and a lot of previous candidates like Turkey and Indonesia have turned authoritarian). However, there's plenty of terrible Christian behavior to reflect on -- recall the Bosnian genocide, which was, indeed, Muslims being murdered by Christians. As far as LGBTQs, Uganda, who keep trying to criminalize homosexual sex with the death penalty, is by and large a Christian nation. There is a reflective, inward looking, caring side of most major religions (Christianity and Islam included) that tends to in my opinion be, as a whole, a good thing. But unfortunately religion is overwhelmingly used *everywhere* for tribal-style us vs. them divisions, which often escalate into violent conflict. Even a more peace-loving (on paper) religion like Buddhism can't help but have a shitty terrorist organization (the Tamil Tigers in Sri Lanka).

Christophobia would be a valid term in countries where Christians are heavily discriminated against (even with violence), which is the case in some countries around the world. This isn't really the case in America. The main recent incidents I can recall of violence occurring against a Christian church in America involve far right idiots driven by homophobia or driven by racism. In fact, usually, when I hear "Christophobia" in America, it's from a perspective like the Family Research Council has where they *want* to discriminate. Which isn't very Christ like at all. The article currently (like a lot of the site) appears to be written from the American perspective. Soundwave106 (talk) 22:25, 27 June 2020 (UTC)

So exactly which phrase or wording in the article is out IP editor complaining about?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 19:53, 28 June 2020 (UTC)

The middle between the Dems and the GOP isn't centrism, but insanity. If you're a centrist, vote Dem. They aren't left-wing. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 01:02, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Why does this page seem to attract non sequiturs?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Legitimate Christian persecution

I feel that this page needs more nuance on actual anti-Christian persecution in aforementioned areas like the Middle East and India, but I’m not trying to make it sound like conspiracy theories like the war on Christmas count, since they’re manufactured and not actually persecution. Rational Dude (talk) 11:58, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Look, I think the best thing to do would be to create a separate page about persecution of Christians in areas where they are a minority. As I understand it, the word "Christophobia" is still not widely used to refer to that persecution. Instead, like I've said before, it's used by a bunch of fucking wankers who don't like living in a secular world and haven't got a fucking clue what facing genuine persecution is like. Sure, cover persecution of Christians. But don't do it on this page. Spud (talk) 12:08, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Okay then. As I mentioned before, I wasn’t trying to imply that far-right persecution complexes are true, I was discussing actual bigotry against Christians. Since we can’t put it in here, what should we title the new article for this as? Rational Dude (talk) 12:34, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

How about "Anti-Christian hatred" or "Persecution of Christian minorities"? Spud (talk) 12:46, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

That sounds good. Rational Dude (talk) 02:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Any minority in any part of the world is likely to be subject to some kind of generalized xenophobia. Hence homophobia, islamophobia etc. The difficulty with "Christophobia", as Spud points out, is this it generally used in areas of the world where Christianity is actually a majority belief. It's used to suggest that this majority is somehow being persecuted by an atheistic minority.

So adding real instances of Christian persecution to this largely political term might obscure more than help. I agree with Spud that an article along the lines he suggests might be better. After all conversion to Christianity in some Muslim states can lead to a death sentence. So there is no doubt that there is an issue with authoritarianism and fundamentalism here.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:17, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

Thinking about it some more it's on a par with straights claiming they are being oppressed because gays have rights. When people are used to being in a position of privilege then equality feels like discrimination. So yes, Christians are persecuted in some parts of the world - but typically not in parts of the world which claim "Christophobia".Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 17:18, 9 May 2023 (UTC)

I know that, I'm referring to hatred against christians in parts of the world like the Middle East and India. Rational Dude (talk) 02:42, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ @Rational Dude if you're going to do this, don't forget to add a section about Nigeria, where the attacks are rising. [1]. I read somewhere that 80% to 90% of the Christian deaths worldwide happen in Nigeria. The coptic minority in Egypt is also, I believe, victim of presecution. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 14:57, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Of course, I'll get right to it. Rational Dude (talk) 16:23, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

That's good. The Soviet Union under Hitler and Stalin, as well as Maoist China also qualify, I believe. Indeed, that seems to be the case of many countries of the Communist bloc. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 17:01, 10 May 2023 (UTC)

Does anyone know if Open Doors is reliable?

According to them, 365 million Christianssuffer high levels of persecution.[2] I couldn't find anything suggesting that this number is unreliable, but I'm still not 100% convinced. Do you guys think we should add it to the article? GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 13:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I suspect there is some exaggeration. The Asian and African figures may reflect some reality as Christians will be minorities in these countries - and being part a religious minority in an otherwise religious country is often bad for your health and general wellbeing. But the South American countries are not very believable. Read what they have to say to justify their interpretation of the situation in Mexico - a Christian majority country. Sure it's dangerous for Christians because of drug cartels and criminal gangs - but it's dangerous for everyone for those reasons.

And if we can't trust their analysis for that country, then I would suggest that we can't trust any of their numbers.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:55, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Plenty of those narco-militants are Christians themselves. Apparently the author has never heard of the Knights Templar Cartel lol. Carthage (talk) 14:57, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Apparently, they also have a problem with not citing their sources. Plutocow (talk) 15:00, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

@Bob M The Mexico thing also bothered me, but they give some reasoning to it.[3] Apparently (or at least according to them), there are some problems that Mexican Christians can face because they are Christians. I assume that's the reason why some other countries with rampant criminality aren't included on the list. My main issue with the report is what Plutocow said: I couldn't find their sources or their methodology on the site. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 15:11, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

OK. I linked to the same page earlier. In that page according to their stats 95.5% of the population is Christian and they say that's 126,876,000 people. Is it really likely that 95.5% of the population is being persecuted? If not, then what percentage? And are they counting the whole 126,876,000 in their "Christians being persecuted" stat? We don't know. And if we don't know then it can't be reliable.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:21, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ (EC) Sorry, I didn't see the link, but the way I understood, they were talking about Christian authorities that face violence because they speak against crime or something like this. Anyway, since they seem to be rather obscure about the way they get this data, I don't think we should use the report as a source. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 15:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Well, their first page says: "More than 365m Christians suffer high levels of persecution and discrimination for their faith.". So that's obviously individuals and not authorities. If they are counting the entire population of Mexico in that number then that's about a third of their number right there!Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:34, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought about that too, I couldn't find how many people in Mexico or in any other country are actually facing persecution, which is definitely something I wanted to see. Supposing they're counting the entire Christian population of Mexico, Nigeria, China and the DR Congo, we already have almost 320 million people. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 15:42, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

We don't know. But it seems evident to me that they are inflating their number in order to bump up the "Christians being persecuted story". Which is a shame because, globally, the persecution of religious minorities is rampant. But it's not helped at all by organizations who make a virtue of exaggerating their particular issues. (AKA lying).Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 15:47, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Actually, I just found the full country dossier.[4] At first, it does seem more robust than we thought, and they included many sources, but I'm not going to read 55 pages to see if it's actually good. If someone wants to read the whole thing and edit the article based on this report, I don't think I'll oppose either, as long as they can answer our questions here on the talk page first. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 15:53, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I've skimmed it. They still maintain that 95.6 percent of the population are Christian and they find stuff they don't like is persecution. While some of their anecdotes may be correct some of their examples of "persecution" are somewhat weak. For example making gender conversion therapy illegal and improving abortion access is somehow persecuting them.

So they really are claiming that 95.6 percent of the population is being persecuted by the other 4.4 percent. I couldn't see if they are counting the whole population in their total stat but I would imagine so.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 16:16, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

I wouldn't personally recommend using this source, but if someone wants to use it with qualifiers I wouldn't object. Carthage (talk) 16:18, 17 January 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, Bob's post was enough to convince me, but I wouldn't object either. I think that using their sources (again, they seem to use reliable outlets, like Reuters, El Pais, AP News, etc) is perhaps better than using their conclusions. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 16:24, 17 January 2024 (UTC)