Talk:JonTron/Archive1

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I've never seen a more transparent lickspittle recruitment attempt by the Alt-right

It's fake news, but featuring real Tweets by Jafari — which we ought to mine for the article. We can't do enough to shed a critical light on Stormfront talking points. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:42, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Kind of a shame. I used to like his content. *sighs* Oh well. RoninMacbeth (talk) 03:15, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

This is a real downer for me to see, even though he's been at it for quite a while (which I was blissfully unaware until now). I love his content, especially on his bootleg Pokemon games, on that Food Fight movie, Banjo-Kazooie: Nuts and Bolts, and Star Fox Adventures. My response to him: "A-NAAAAA-AAAAA, HOLY SHIT! WE'LL ALWAYS LOOOVE YOU! _{I can't believe you're doing this to me, goddamn it, how could you do this to me}?! Also, Jacques is really cute! <3 --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 04:21, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Who doesn't love the JonTron show? One of the most fun things to watch on YouTube, in my opinion. What sucks so hard is that Jafari's personal views seem so shitty, especially recently (since the Trump takeover, and since Jon started hanging out with Sargon of Akkad). It really is heartbreaking. Now, I'm not saying a person has to match my opinions to be worthwhile to me. But I just keep thinking, "Man, I wish he would've just NOT stepped into political commentary at all". As in, you know, murmuring "I really wish he didn't think that" over and over to myself as I read his recent controversial statements. I find myself in the same situation here that huge fans of Michael Jackson did when the paedo charges were gaining traction. Part of it appears to be watching a person I love(d) "self-destruct". It sucks all the more, because I have no internal conflict regarding my stance on white supremacist nonsense. Heartbreaking. Jon's excellent rendition of Fireworks brought tears to my eyes at one point. I've seen videos of him talking at conventions, I've seen his stuff with h3h3 — he just seems so lovable. To see him now, pursuing talking points — some of which once belonged to David Duke — so far to the (alt-)right that even people like Chris Raygun calls them out as blatant fabrications is a terrible thing indeed. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:38, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Sort of liked the JonTron show, hated GameGrumps. Stopped watching any more of him after he started being immature while playing games (yes yes, I'm one of those insufferable nerds who gets offended when his favourite games don't get played in a serious manner, though I consider this to be one of my more harmless flaws). Now that he's tweeting his political views I'm glad I didn't follow him more. 94.174.77.41 (talk) 20:33, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh, how the mighty have fallen. TheMyon (talk) 21:43, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Hear, hear... :C Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:48, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Holy shit!

Keemstar — of all people — actually has some worthwhile commentary on this whole thing. And he's got a point, you know. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:33, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, charisma plays a big deal in this. People will have softer attitudes on those they view as "friendly", "attractive", and "funny" and will therefore lower their weapons even if their target says the worst things. It's perhaps why Donald Trump got elected, because he is a TV personality. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:43, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah... It's like I wrote just above:

"I find myself in the same situation here that huge fans of Michael Jackson did when the paedo charges were gaining traction."

And Keemstar is right — it is interesting to note how the human mind b like dat sometimes. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:46, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Welll, not saying if Keemstar is wrong. I'm more like reinforcing his point if anything. Though I blinked when he said that "Destiny came out as a liberal". Just a weird assessment to make when it's more like he's challenging JonTron with historical facts. I, however, didn't watch the debate. As for the psychological effect, I believe it is the halo effect. Nice read if you're interested. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:59, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

This is indeed one big study in the halo effect, for me atleast... Thanks for the link, anyways Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:03, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Holy crap, Jontron's gone off the deep end.

This discussion was moved here from RationalWiki:Saloon bar#Holy crap, Jontron's gone off the deep end..

twitter: https://twitter.com/JonTronShow?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor

stream "debate": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RQA9GZprqM

I mean my God, I used to love this guy. For those of you who don't know, Jontron's (or Jon Jafari,) is a youtube comedian who's popular not only for his own skits, but also involvement in popular channels such as Game grumps, Sleepycabin, etc. I mean prior to this I saw he appeared on the stream with the infamous Sargon, but I already didn't care much for Sargon, and as such, I thought/hoped he would keep his political views and content separate... So soon after the pewdiepie issue too, my god. I don't have too much to say, but I'm kind of blown away and depressed by this. I liked and respected this guy so much... megalodon (talk) 04:13, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I know him, I love his content, I love his green-cheeked parakeet, Jacques, and to see him make those kinds of points from his mouth that match the horrible "alt-right" people in tone is extremely disheartening. It's so depressing to see him spout off anti-immigrant rhetoric and being pretty smug about it when challenged as well as crying persecution when people rightfully call him out. I understand why people would keep their political beliefs silent, but this is running off the deep end. I'm glad people like Jim Sterling is around and open about his beliefs so he doesn't unveil such disturbing thoughts. But this, this is horrible. I would never think JonTron would be a bad guy. I didn't even know he said those kinds of things before (which he did, but I was ignorant and maybe I would be better off ignorant), but now, it's very difficult to shake off and even more difficult to avoid the association of "alt-right" when I think and make JonTron-related jokes. You know what, JonTron seriously needs a hug. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 04:26, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I know he supported Gamergate back when that was first becoming an issue, so the warning signs were there for years IMO, hence why I never watched his videos. That, and I'm not a fan of game videos/livestreams in general, especially not the kind that are more about the personality of the streamer than the actual game. (I will make exceptions for videos of a) game reviews, b) games that are out of print or on consoles I don't have, c) "cool/funny moments" compilations, and d) bad games where the point of the video is to mock them.) The only thing that really surprised me with JonTron's statements was how blunt they were; he was quite literally parroting white nationalist/supremacist talking points without a hint of irony or humor, strange given that a) he's half-Iranian, meaning that a lot of white nationalists probably see him as non-white and an "infiltrator", and b) he's known as a comedian. PewDiePie at least had the excuse of dumb jokes where the context was easy to miss if you weren't already steeped in his fan culture, hence why, even when his sponsors were cutting ties to him, his fanbase remained intact for the most part. JonTron has no such excuse, and in fact doubled down on it when questioned. People are unsubscribing, and even his subreddit is disgusted (/r/The_Donald shitposters notwithstanding). It's heartening to see that, after several years of seeing the worst elements of gamer culture bask in the limelight and leave everybody else ashamed to call themselves gamers, there are still some lines of decency. KevinR1990 (talk) 06:16, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I was quite surprised too when I saw that his subreddit actually seemed to be filled with normal, sane, human beings, as opposed to his youtube for example. I guess the silver lining in all of this is that the crack-pots just seem to scream louder than the rest of us.megalodon (talk) 07:35, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Long live JonTron, a hero of gamergate and may his Neckbeard grow long. 2d4chanfag (talk) 08:39, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank god for Jim fucking Sterling son. In all seriousness though, I don't understand why the gaming community has attracted so much attention from the alt right. It is kind of strange to see someone like JonTron go off the deep end like this, but I didn't really watch much of his content even before he started to betray his overtly alt right positions. I'm glad that Jim Sterling has actually stood up for things like female representation in gaming a number of times in the past. --Samstr (talk) 15:57, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

I know, how does gaming of all things, bring out the worst in people like this? Is it because most of the game developers are white heterosexual men pushing their vision of what they like to see way too far and thus attracting more silly men? Is it because in gaming, minorities and women are treated even worse as full-fledged characters? All while other media have become more progressive and adhering to an SJW agenda lawl while gaming is lagging, so the assholes flock to the medium that still reflects their views? As a woman who has to read shit men say, it's refreshing to see someone like Jim Sterling stand up for female and minority representation in gaming despite facing harsh attacks, in stark contrast to "ew, women should stay out of games" and "ew, no breast slider so it's censorshipz" and "ew there isn't a bikini option for a 12-year old in the localization so it's censorzip". JonTron... he supported GamerGate and he is a friend of Sargon of Akkad. I honestly wonder if Sargon of Akkad polarized his views or if JonTron is already inclined believing into deep rancid fly-covered horse cerebrospinal fluid like that. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:21, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, you could say I'm in denial, but I think Jon has little to no idea about what he likes politically. He honestly seems like the kind of person who heard "libtard cucks are going to genocide whites and ban videogames" and ate up every word. Seriously, if you examine his side of the debate, he seems like he has no actual idea what he's talking about, let alone any form of a coherent argument. It would kind of fit with how back and forth his political support for either party has been, but idk. On the topic of how monolithic the white-male culture of video games is, I believe that's largely because after the video game crash of 1983, for whatever reasons, advertising began mainly targeting young males (whereas before video games were almost viewed as a family activity). From that point on, that mentality didn't really change, and game companies are reluctant to reach out to other groups more, lest either not making money, or pissing off their already-paying congregation of neckbeards. megalodon (talk) 07:01, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm certainly to be counted among those who are probably in denial, but I'll say this much — I certainly want your hypothesis to be true, though I don't know that I have reason to believe that it is.

I mean, to take one of Jon's statements:

"Whites should stick together and keep to their own country."

Now that is quite literally a call for white separatism. Like, that is exactly what that appears to be. Even if we concede that it's not white power (the TOW article states that not all white separatism equals white power), it's still white freaking separatism. Which is pretty bad, just on its own terms.

That being said though, there's some evidence in support of your hypothesis that Jon's just a gamer kid naive as hell on all things political/racial/societal. Just before the Destiny shitstorm began, I had watched JonTron's 2017 Q&A video. In it, I was very glad to hear his reply to the following question (as I'd been worried that he'd get all political — which it turns out he later did, see our article on him):

Question: Recently you've been revealing more of your political ideologies, could you see yourself ever making more serious content on these matters?

Jon's reply: This is such a weird question, because because normally, I... I... I'm not... I... I never wanted to bring politics into my career.

It's not just something I think you should probably talk about, really, but the rules have just been broken! Every goddamn celebrity is just [imitates ranting angrily in front of a keyboard] all the time!

So I was just "Oh, FINE! You're PULLING ME INTO IT, FINE!". So I just wanted to give a voice of reason — uh, I don't know if I have!? I've probably just made things worse. But, uh... No, I don't really plan to continue it.

If some day comes, where it's appropriate — fine? I'll be like Bill Maher or something, but I... It's really not what I envision myself doing. If I... If there's an honest-to-God demand for it MAYBE someday. But...

I don't know, I have a feeling they would just look up my old videos and go "Is this guy really qualified to give political opinions?". [Laughs and points to self] "I don't think this guy's got the resumé!".

Jon's above given rationale is that "the rules have just been broken" and that (in his view) every other American celebrity without any idea of what they're ranting about is already shitposting left right and center, so Jon just thought he'd join in.

I honestly think that his above given rationale speaks in favor of the Dunning-Kruger effect, as opposed to Jon being a diehard, Luger-owning Nazi. Now, as a heartbroken JonTron fan, my judgement is very clouded right now (I'm still stuck in the "let this all be a bad dream"-stage), but I can't help but think that: maybe he really just wanted to join in on the whole "Trump-directed" shitposting climate?

Y'know, Jon's been hanging with Sargon, Jon's on Twitter trying to be funny — and offensive humor seems to be the edgy kids' primary tool these days... Maybe Jon just didn't realize in time how far gone the climate of discussion really was (considering he'd been privately talking with Sargon et. al. for so long), that when Jon publically reasoned the way his social in-group does internally, he ended up sounding like some C-list David Duke impersonator?

Note also that Jon compares his "politically outspoken self" to none other than Bill Maher — and for all the flaws that Maher has, I don't know that Maher's the least bit popular to any "serious" adherent of the Alt-right.

I mean, on Destiny's stream, maybe Jon naively thought that he was "just resisting" the regressive left — while trying to be (offensively) funny for the viewers — because really Jon is just an utterly clueless gamer kid who's been impressed upon by bad people like Sargon — and as a result, Jon's discussion consisted of (at best unknowingly) reciting what we know to be classic PRATTs which white supremacists have been anonymously spreading on social media for years (in the form of fake news and various Gish Gallops)?

But I really, really don't know. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:24, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Armchair psychologist here. Bob Altenmeyer argues, in "The Authoritarians", that right-wing authoritarians tend to have grown up in very small in-circles -- think "family, Church, school, and nought inbetween". IMO, gaming might allow people to partially recreate those small in-circles: if you want to, you can choose to hang out only with other predominantly wealthy+white+cis+straight+male gamers. This, in turn, might insulate you from spending much time in contact with people who come from other life histories -- and so allow the sort of ridiculous racism of the alt-right to fester. oʇɐʇoԀʇɐϽʎzznℲ (talk/stalk) 15:25, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately, as much as I like JonTron (and I still like him, I just can't stand his opinions and how full of irrational fear and demonizing a minority that contains such a diverse range of people), I believe the worst he has, which is that he sincerely believes the crap he spews out. Not denying that he might be naive about this, but he's so smug and confident about it and he's not terribly young; he should probably have a firm grip on his political views. Still, not yet denying the influence of the far-right reactionary misogynist racist xenophobes a.k.a. "alt-right" crystallized his views nor the terrible 2016 election that caused people to become more comfortable about expressing their hate, if he was already inclined to believe that awful stuff. Sargon of Akkad is not a good influence. How long as JonTron been affiliated with this person? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:36, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

All you need to know is in this one hour-long livestream... Abandon all hope, ye who press Play here:

I've never had the stomach to watch (read: listen to) this thing myself, because frankly, I've never seen a youtube video with "SJW" in the title that wasn't completely asinine hate-mongering. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:54, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Some actual Alt-right edgelords have excerpted what THEY consider to be the "best" 5 minutes from the above livestream. According to them, this clip shows how Jon discusses "Anti-White Propaganda in Media & Public Schools". The Alt-righters in question also add how "Its Not Just SJWs". This is an interesting addition, because by saying "It's not just SJW's", their point seems to be to imply that there's something much bigger going on, which we all need to WAKE UP to. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah my theory is like the above, he just made a lot of money early on in his life talking about something apolitical. He spent years with others trying to rope him into a number of culture war conflicts, not the least of was Gamergate, which he probably never would have given a shit about if it weren't for people on both sides begging for his opinion and then going supernova when he said something they didn't like. There's a fair chance I think that over time he became more and more turned off by the lefty gamer sphere for this reason, and that opened him up to the likes of the alt-right and Sargon and a chain reaction from there. But he talks about these issues the same way I suspect many teenagers and college-aged kids might, without nuance or critical thinking or knowledge of history. Even Sargon tends to talk about these issues like he's been at it a while. I don't claim to be a psychic, but something tells me the other Grumps don't quite share his political views, and if they were any part of his life a few years ago that might have been an issue with them. Even someone who tries to hide it usually let's their political ideology slip every now and then (the off-main Grumps played Mr. President, which was not kind to Trump in any way), and I never got the sense that Jon had any kind of strongly-held political ideology based on what little has slipped out. Even though Jim Sterling didn't talk about politics much early on, it didn't take much to figure out where he stands on a lot of issues. Even though the RedLetterMedia guys a very careful about talking about politics, you can tell Stoklasa is a hopeless cynic and it's not hard to derive his politics from that. Jon was always a mystery to me though and I think many different social justic... advocates trying to pull him in a certain direction just make him snap hard the opposite way. Hentropy (talk) 20:09, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

That, plus the fact that (as I mention above) he likens his own imagined "politically outspoken self" to Bill Maher. Which is certainly not the pick of anyone who has a clue that they're sort of championing views that are a huge step further to the right than they themselves might knowingly realize. But for all I know, I'm whitewashing his words. I really don't know. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:14, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, there's that critical-thinking slipshod and JonTron's circumstance of never really being in to politics, but I don't excuse his age, as I've seen adults exhibit being simplistic critical-thinking trainwrecks that spout talking points rather than well-reasoned thoughts. They think they're firm on their beliefs, but they have no substance. I'm afraid JonTron is only getting worse from here thanks to his defensive behavior and how internet circles radicalize people very easily. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:25, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

And on top of all that, we have to factor in the built-in shortcomings of the human mind. They apply to us all — perhaps to Jon in particular (in this situation), considering the backlash he's recieved from his statements. Only time will tell if he doubles down additionally on his Alt-right talking points or not, but the prognosis is sadly not good. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 20:32, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, he seems to know how this will affect his image and career, and he doesn't seem to care. He may already think he's passed his prime, which was likely true before he started this political stuff, so this my be his idea of a... second act? Becoming more of a game/movie/culture pundit with a loyal, rabid fan base at his back isn't the worst way to keep relevance, I guess. In any case it seems unlikely that he's going to come out months/years from now and say he was being dumb or even trying to say it was all a "social experiment". He seems to be setting up for the long haul, unfortunately. Hentropy (talk) 21:22, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

We can only hope this is some sort of passing phase. --Samstr (talk) 21:51, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

I think I speak for many of us when I say that we're all hoping that Jon gets a speedy recovery of his perspective and is back to his old happy-go-lucky self as soon as possible. Hoping hard, because we're not out of the woods yet. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:12, 16 March 2017 (UTC)

Going to offer an unpopular opinion: I think Jon actually made some good points in this video, though perhaps they're applied too broadly. There plenty of humorless weirdos on the Left who are more than happy to impose their moral sensibilities on the rest of us as if it were some sort of absolute truth. As someone who believes true comedy comes from bad situations, often at someones expense, I just can't see eye to eye with these folks. Though personally, I like to think these people are just a vocal minority. That said, I assumed Jon was moving in a thoughtful, Moderate direction with this line of thinking. He seemed like the "live and let live" type after all. I couldn't have been more wrong. I have my complaints about the Left, but where Jon is going is far, faaaar worse. And you know what they say about Fireworks. They explode, violently. 167.78.4.19 (talk) 13:39, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

While I can't offer any appraisal of the contents of the video (since I haven't actually watched it myself, for reasons given above), taking humor in a self-righteous way is not the problem here — indeed, my own outlook on offensive humor sounds quite compatible with your own. What is the problem here is the literal white separatism and "white extinction" conspiracy mongering (as you seem to agree on). It's the apex of inflammatory fringe identity politics, given essentially from the vantage point of one David Duke, no less. Whatever problems plague trendy segments of the left is one thing, but this much is certain. Save for a definite confirmation from multiverse theory, there is no Earth in existence on which David Duke's outlook isn't bullshit. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 16:22, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Imposing moral sensibilities... I don't think what anything JonTron said about "demographic suicide" sits very well with me. I'm not going to call him immoral, but these beings committing "demographic takeover" or whatever are mostly complicated human beings with complicated motives and situations. I can't look at a person's face at a first glance and think "wow, this person is an inferior being" nor can I imagine entire populations as monolithic. JonTron apparently does so, characterizing immigrants like this. What doesn't help his case is that he defended Steve King, had David Duke support him, and he doubled-down when rightfully called out for once. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 18:39, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

You're earning a lot of points from me tonight! Reverend Black Percy (talk) 19:12, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Lovely. Thanks for the support! --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:28, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Nazi joke

John make a Nazi joke in the Disney Bootlegs video. The nazi starts off strong being anti-nazi (it was mostly his shocked reaction to seeing a swastika in a Disney game), but then there's has a scene of Hitler singing a song for some reason. It's tasteless in my view.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 21:25, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I thought it was really funny. You do realize the Nazi reference was in the actual bootleg, right? They had a swastika platform in their Lion King game for no effing reason. Hilarity ensued. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:36, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

I did too, and yes I am aware it's in the actual bootleg, but once I saw Hitler singing I thought it went from really funny to just off-putting. Though, that could just be me.

Also the swastika graphic may just be stolen from another game or it may just be an example of cultural barriers. The swastika (a.k.a. the manji) doesn't correlate to the holocaust in non-western places. For example, the manji was in the original Legand of Zelda (the article mistakenly identifies the two words as different symbols for whatever reason.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 22:06, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh yeah, the Hitler singing part... I had forgotten about that bit. Yeh, it wasn't the funniest bit of the video, but it was allright. A bit forced, but it was fine under the circumstances imo. Fundamentally, editing jokes can be sorta "hit-and-miss". *shrug* Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:20, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

It's still interesting to see Jon, despite having characteristics of an alt-righter, at least handles content that alt-righters would handle poorly relatively quite well. Another example is Jon, in the same video, responding negatively to a racist depiction of a black person. It's another well executed and hilarious moment in the video.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 22:29, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:31, 17 March 2017 (UTC)

JonTron really has lost his marbles

I went on to JonTron's twitter page and saw a few pics with people holding guns at their heads, that is totally insane. JonTron should see a psychiatrist.--Rationalzombie94 (talk) 16:04, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Can you or anyone provide the context? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:25, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Unless RZ brings sources, just ignore it. It's nothing personal — it's my policy for all statements of things-that-could-and-should-be-sourced-but-are-not. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:33, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Gee, he said he preferred Phil Collins era Genesis. I don't know what more evidence you need, he's definitely insane in the mind. Nicklaus (talk) 08:59, 3 May 2017 (UTC)

Jon breaks the silence

I don't mean to color this too much, but while I'm happy with some of the points he made (example highlight at 2:44-2:53 — I agree that saying "All of [RACE] is [BLANK]" is inescapably racist), I have a rather mixed opinion of the video overall. And I'm sad to say so.

As far as positives go, I also found 2:12-2:20 to contain a completely valid point on his part, quote:

"You can't keep banging the racial category drum, and then be shocked when people think in terms of racial categories!"

To that, I agree fully. People thinking exclusively in terms of identity politics (be they "SJWs" or white supremacists) seem to think themselves excused from the horseshoe. I need not point out that they never are.

As pertains to the rest of his statement — sure, he makes some obvious points on über identity politics which I think most people agree with him about — I really feel that this video wasn't close to the type of retraction of (read: apology for) his former statements that I would've personally wanted to hear. I mean, this video is even near-polemical at points!

I was also a bit disconcerted by his statement around 1:17, something about:

"...white people speak up in the best interest of their race."

It almost seems that this is his own understanding of what his Twitch statements were — and if so, I'm sad to say, he's an idiot.

I think his worst statement was:

"...Anytime someone brings up an uncomfortable statistic, you freak out! And burn things down or something!"

If this is what he thinks even happened, he's an idiot. It's not that the statistics were "uncomfortable", as much as being completely fake (and white supremacist propaganda to boot!). Simply owning up to that fact — or even to having been tricked by them himself — would've been nice to hear!

Now, don't think I'm on a witchhunt here. Jon has the best position in the world to win me over. I'm a huge fan of the guy's work. I believe in live-and-let-live as pertains to offensive humor. I'm not the least bit crazy about identity politics. I've made my views on violent protesting clear before. But even so, I try not to be an ideological robot.

As such, I feel that Jon missed me in this video (and that's with basically all of my biases and pre-conceptions working to his advantage). I'm sad to say that right now, this whole "statement" video of his rings too much of a Brian apology to me. It really does.

I mean, It would've been so simple for him to be more apologetic in this video. I'm not saying, "grovel and squirm!". I'm saying, concede the fucking point, dude! I'm saying; maybe not a word of what was said on that one specific exact Twitch stream is worth defending.

Doesn't he realize that maybe we're all wondering where he's really standing right now, and sorta missing the chance to MASSIVELY distance himself from any type of white separatism is concerning enough on its own?

Instead, it still feels like he has his "cutting through the BS"-attitude in full swing — and that attitude just reeks of Dunning-Kruger. Though, as such, I suppose I owe him the interpretation to match. Still not happy about all this, though... *mumbles* Reverend Black Percy (talk) 01:29, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Also — though Jon never actually said this — this comment to the video cracked me up hard:

“”I can't be racist, I'm a child of parents!

That is all. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:03, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I think it's just easier to say "Well, I'm wrong, maybe my fears on 'demographic suicide' were a bit overblown, and I understand that some may be rightfully alarmed that my statements mirror that of well-known hate groups. I mean, nobody thinks clearly when they're scared and I did demonstrate a lack of clarity. I'm not into politics, so I shouldn't have acted like I know things. I do Destiny has a point now that I think about it since I realized that history repeats itself. I'm sorry." --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 02:12, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah — and instead of something like that, Jon was more like "THIS IS WHY TRUMP WINS JUST SAYIN'" Reverend Black Percy (talk) 02:15, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

I watched the video. It's starts off good but then goes to straight down to terrible surprisingly quickly. He seems to still seems to be defending himself. He should have just said sorry and said he's awful with handling sensitive topics and STOPPED RIGHT THERE. He completely ignores what he said in the stream and starts elaborating on something that he never started on (in this video he now acknowledges Irish discrimination when in the stream he denied it). To give him credit where it's due, I do support him being critical of identity politics (like RBP), but he executes his argument awfully. Jon also seems to think that seeing race is racist when I argue that the opposite is true. Not seeing race ignores the fact that other people see it and racially discriminate. It would be nice if everybody was race blind, unfortunately, in this era, this is not true, and it will be some time until this can be achieved. For the time being, we have to tend to the issue and being race blind doesn't tend to the issue, it perpetuates it.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 00:25, 22 March 2017 (UTC)

Reverend Black Percy (talk) 08:38, 16 May 2017 (UTC)

More stuff to cover?

Reponse from fanbase

• https://www.youtube.com/user/JonTronShow/discussion
• https://www.reddit.com/r/JonTron/comments/5za2av/politics_megathread_part_iii_back_to_the_return/?utm_content=title&utm_medium=hot&utm_source=reddit&utm_name=JonTron

[...][A]fter the election he was interviewed by Breitbart (a far-right 'news' website) where he talked about his views on the election and the media. Since then he's done other things, like go on a hangout with controversial youtube pundit "Sargon of Akkad" to complain about left-wingers and Sargon's getting banned from twitter for tweeting gay porn at his alt-right followers (no, really).

—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 02:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Is this Internet drama? I guess we can write about him flirting with Brietbart; Carl of Swindon stuff is actually known before this stuff. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 02:47, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

TBH not worth it. All that stuff is pretty tame compared to what's on-page now. And JonTron is still very internet-drama-y -- it's only noteworthy because of how racist his views are, IMO. 32℉uzzy; 0℃atPotato (talk/stalk) 13:29, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I agree that Internet Drama^TM shouldn't be covered. How about flirting with Breitbart though?—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 13:32, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Please compile all you can on his flirtations with the Alt-right for the talkpage. Based on what we locate, we can start looking at what, if anything, is worthy of mention in the article. Mainly, however, I fully agree with FCP and CBF above. And for the record — making the JonTron article center on simply presenting the man's own quotes was a stroke of genius. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

http://www.breitbart.com/tech/2016/11/18/exclusive-youtub-star-jontron-i-dont-think-people-will-trust-the-media-anymore/

The article is short, but here's one thing I should bring up.

JT: I don’t know much about GamerGate [or] know what it was really about. But I think the GamerGate situation is [...] tied into [...] the social justice mindset [...] on a much bigger scale. Because it’s gone from video game blogs to our entire mainstream media [, the political environment of America right now is] a cataclysmic version of GamerGate.

Overall, it's not as bad as the twitch stream, but it still shows ignorance. He's talking in very vague terms because he doesn't know what he's talking about. He's claiming that GamerGate represents all the social justice warriors while admitting he knows very little about GamerGate.—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 21:27, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

JonTron has flirted with teh GamerGaters for a bit now. This isn't new information, since this was published back in November and we had a GamerGate category added. So, perhaps one or two lines though it might be shoehorning a bit. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:34, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

This is also in the article:

“”I just think it’s funny that a couple of logical tweets have made me a “conservative,” such a strong label. I don’t even know what it means to be conservative, or what a conservative is anymore.

—Jon Jafari talking out of his ass

—€h33s3βurg3rF@€3  (talk • stalk) 00:44, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Iranian are non-white?

So, according to RatinalWiki Iranians are nominally non-white now? I haven't seen anybody BUT RationalWiki claim this. What's the underlying racial theory for this? See, it can't be the Nazi Rassenlehre because according to the Nazis, they're white. Aryan, in fact. It can't be the US legal system either because US courts consider Iranians white. I can't find a single citable source right now for RationalWiki's claim in this matter. You can only find a certain type of white supremacist who denies that Iranians are white in a very indirect manner by claiming to somehow know that alleged non-sourced white supremacist would disavow the whiteness of Iranians. See, if you, for some reason, needed a source to back up a claim how Iranians are non-white, RationalWiki would be the only one to quote right now.141.39.226.239 (talk) 13:36, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Easy, big fella! "We" consider all race categories to be bullshit to begin with. I think the snarky point being attempted (though perhaps poorly) is something along the lines of: reasoning in terms of "racial purity" always tends to backfire on the person doing so. It's easy to be in favor of white separatism — until the scheme progresses towards its logical conclusion, i.e. to the point where your supposed allies start asking paranoid questions about your parents. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 14:32, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

"We" don't give a fuck. According to modern-day neo-nazis, whose primary wedge into the public debate is anti-Islamic sentiment, Iranians aren't white. That's because "white" to them, is a shibboleth for "a just big enough cross-section of direct European ancestory as to represent a majority of Americans." Jon would naturally like to include himself in that set, because that's how being an ingroup-obsessed authoritarian nitwit works.

The fact the ethnonationalist politics are a load of bullshit doesn't really stop anyone from believing in them. ikanreed ^{You probably didn't deserve that} 15:06, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

"According to modern-day neo-nazis, whose primary wedge into the public debate is anti-Islamic sentiment, Iranians aren't white." Again you do the very thing I criticized you for. You provide absolutely no evidence that this is, in fact, an opinion existing among white supremacists AND that this opinion has a sizeable following. The only reason you could claim any of this with confidence despite the clear lack of evidence is that you know for a fact that YOU are one such white supremacist who holds such beliefs. This is not the first time I have to point out that RationalWiki is making unsourced claims. I took the time to look through some user accounts and turns out most you are academic failures. Wow, what a non-surprise! People who don't understand citation rules drop out of college? Who would've thought!141.39.226.239 (talk) 08:16, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, just as Andy showed us the vital importance of having a formal education, Ikanreed taught us that Hitler, in fact, did nothing wrong. You've understood things perfectly. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 10:58, 1 April 2017 (UTC)

Man, where did this college drop-out thing come from? I'm curious what kind failed-ass internet detectivery went into that particular claim. ikanreed ^{You probably didn't deserve that} 18:25, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Yeah "dropout". Little does he know you were actually homeschooled in a diploma mill. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 21:58, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Please, I got expelled from pre-natal care for poor performance. ikanreed ^{You probably didn't deserve that} 22:00, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

"Go back to the start. By which I mean kindergarten!" - Maddox Reverend Black Percy (talk) 22:37, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

lol, you know when someone devolves into extra pathetic when they "cleverly" personally attack us about "academic failure". BoN, you're not worth our time. Continue ranting all you want, but you're not getting any further reply from me. Bye. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:41, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Concerning hand gesture

At 1:16 in the video Love Is Like Drugs - ft. Schmoyoho (Short Version), Jafari makes a gesture suspiciously similar to a Nazi salute. This could very easily be a false alarm, but there were several comments from six months ago (before both his Sargon of Akkad and Destiny streams) who interpreted the gesture as a Nazi salute. Considering his other subtle dog whistles, it is plausible this was deliberate but I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. --CowHouse (talk) 04:12, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Seems unlikely; give him benefit of the doubt. Those accounts probably wanted to get attention with a Hitler joke -- and weren't aimed at critiquing the choreography of a JonTron performance.

Also remember: lots of shaky evidence like this isn't nearly as helpful as a few examples of undeniable bigotry, if attempting to document JonTron's bigotry. FU22YC47P07470 (talk/stalk) 04:30, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Don't search too diligently for 'hidden' signs of bigotry (or what have you) — because by doing so, you'll end up finding them everywhere. This, by the way, is not a good thing. Reverend Black Percy (talk) 11:46, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

Trump and one of his advisors are white nationalists if you squint hard enough, don't dilute legitimate criticism of morons with comparisons to Hitler. Christopher (talk) 20:28, 17 May 2017 (UTC)

A lot of people with alt-right beliefs know what they can and can't say. They use coded language and symbolism many would ignore or not even notice, but fellow alt-right people definitely get the message. If Jafari believed in antisemitic conspiracies he's not stupid enough to say it outright in an "undeniable" manner. I added this to the talk page because I thought it was unlikely, and largely wanted confirmation. I also don't agree that it's pareidolia or a conspiracy theory since he has basically already confirmed white nationalist sympathies. If he had not already done so, then I would be being completely unreasonable. Here's another example of something he said that I think is worth discussing. In a January 30, 2017 podcast with psychicpebbles, Schmucks Ep 1 (starting at 25:58), Jafari says "I just find history interesting because you can find patterns or echoes to the modern day". Compare this to the explanation for the use of triple parentheses on Wikipedia: The editors of The Right Stuff explained that the use of an echo, represented in text using triple parentheses, was an internal meme meant to symbolize an opinion that the actions of Jews in the past cause their names to "echo throughout history." Again, this is only suspicious in light of his other alt-right beliefs and because he knows how to use effective dog whistles (see "/our guy/" and "thanks goys" on the main page). --CowHouse (talk) 01:05, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Even if it wasn't pareidolia (and I still think it is), if you know nothing about JonTron and you hear "look! He did something which looks sorta like a Nazi salute if you squint in the right way! He's a Nazi!" You'd rightly dismiss it as confirmation bias. There's no need to use rubbish "evidence" like this to show that he's a racist when there's so much actual evidence. Christopher (talk) 17:27, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

I think you missed the most important parts of what I said: I added this to the talk page because I thought it was unlikely, and largely wanted confirmation and Here's another example of something he said that I think is worth discussing. I literally noticed it and thought "this is probably nothing but I'll see what everyone else thinks." It was only ever circumstantial at best, and I wouldn't even go that far because I don't think this is proof he is a Nazi. Now, any thoughts on the quote I mentioned? --CowHouse (talk) 18:06, 18 May 2017 (UTC)

Should JonTron be in the alt-right category?

What are everyone's thoughts on adding JonTron to the alt-right category? --CowHouse (talk) 16:10, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Speaking in terms of wiki categories, yes. He's relevant to the spread of alt-right memes. Speaking in terms of his ideology, probably not. Sir ℱ℧ℤℤϒℂᗩℑᑭƠℑᗩℑƠ (talk/stalk) 17:24, 24 May 2017 (UTC)