RationalWiki talk:Community Standards

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Revision history

Please do not archive this section

For guidelines and their discussions that passed see Passed1 .

For guidelines and their discussions that did not pass see Superseded1.

For the rewrites and their discussions during January 2009, see the revamp and its talk page and archive, an early draft here, and further discussions here, plus the voting discussion.

Please start a separate sub-heading for each new guideline

Deletion, moving and merging votes

Currently it takes three sysops to agree to delete something, and fewer to move or merge articles. There's nothing written down anywhere finadable about this - should there be? Totnesmartin (talk) 17:50, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

I didn't think we wanted any hard and fast rules on this. 3 was a rough guideline for what to do with something reasonably major. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 17:51, 17 August 2009 (UTC)

No protection of talk pages

I count myself, Nx, Broccoli, SR and Moriarty in favour and NU513 opposed. Can I put it back in now? EddyP (talk) 21:44, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Hold up. Let's at least talk about it first. Tetronian you're clueless 21:45, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree with Nx that not protecting talk pages is already implicit in the standards, but it should be made explicit. I'd put it in a different sentence though, rather than shoe-horning it into the current one about user space. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 21:47, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm willing to go along with these changes if we can agree to protect my talk page. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 21:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Let's put it back (I think even NU is really in favour) Broccoli (talk) 21:50, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I would be willing to allow consideration of a short protection of a talk page given that edits to a user's talk page can trigger emails to that user. Nothing more than 30 minutes though. That might be one exception that could be added. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 21:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Talk page changes sending e-mails can be turned off in preferences. EddyP (talk) 22:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
What I'm most concerned with is people editing my user talk at night. Can I protect it only during night hours? Like some kind of mode that I can turn on? — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 21:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I remember reading somewhere that any kind of protection needed to be discussed first (except userspace, of course), but can't find where that is. -- Nx / talk 21:58, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Do we have 'consensus' yet? Broccoli (talk) 22:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Ok, here's what I want to know: Those of you who are against protection talk pages, why are you against it? And those of you who are for allowing talk pages to be protected, why are you for it? I think that will get the discussion moving. Tetronian you're clueless 22:01, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

Because the talk pages are places where we can discuss articles. If you can't post on a talk page, where can you post? EddyP (talk) 22:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
My user page isn't an article. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:06, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
But how else are we supposed to talk to you? EddyP (talk) 22:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Aside from the fact that you think you're privileged to talk to me, you would be able to talk to me on my talk page because you're a sysop. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
We don't need to talk to you. We just need to ban you for life. Broccoli (talk) 22:11, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I knew it was only a matter of time before you reverted to your fascist impulses. If you don't want to talk, then why care if my talk page is protected? — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
FOR PROTECTION I refuse to be slandered and have my page vandalized while I'm not here to respond or correct it. I know you guys think you'll be on top of it and take good care of it, but honestly you're a bunch of derelicts that I wouldn't trust to water my cactus. My talk page and my reputation are important to me, and I won't have some shady bunch of numbers defame it or me. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:09, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
You can protect your userpage. -- Nx / talk 22:12, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
And I can protect my user talk page, too. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:13, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I disagree. user talk pages are community property, not private property. ħumanUser talk:Human 22:14, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
(EC) I vote against protection of talkpages, unless you provide an alternative place (Like a User:user/thisplace) for people to talk to you that isn't protected. I know I once protected my talkpage to unregistered editors for a week because it was a spambot target, but I provided a page for serious people to talk to me.. Lord of the Goons The official spikey-haired skeptical punk 22:16, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
We don't censor here 'Neveruse'. Anyone is free to say anything they like about you on your talk page. Broccoli (talk) 22:17, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
My user talk page will inherently be about me and during daytime hours, I welcome your comments and questions. While I'm away, I won't trust you derelicts to keep it free from vandalism and slander. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
EC.Perhaps there could be some explanation of why we are discussing this? As Human says, talk pages are public. RW policy has always been to avoid protection if possible - but I guess there is some incident which has started the discussion?--BobNot Jim 22:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
No, Neveruse was just bored and decided to troll. -- Nx / talk 22:20, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I can agree with the spiky-head on this one. If your talk page becomes a target of a spambot or some jilted BoN it seems only fair to save yourself the trouble of reverting/re-reverting this stuff. The only problem with the alternate page is that the little message thingy doesn't pop up when you have a message, and the only way you'll know if someone is attempting contact is constantly checking the RC. Aboriginal Noise with 4 M's and a silent Q 22:21, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Or by putting it on your watchlist, which I did when I created mine. AnarchoGoon Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living 22:23, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
(ECx2) The alleged user 'Neveruse' is just filling up the troll-quotient. We should have MC back. He isn't really a troll. Broccoli (talk) 22:22, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

How some of you get so worked up over a little trolling (even when you know I'm trolling you!) never ceases to amaze me, which is why I will continue to occasionally troll you. Learn to ignore me or learn to take yourselves a little less seriously. Serious business wiki parody over. — Sincerely, Neveruse513 / Talk / Block 22:25, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

(ECx10,000) (Ignoring the bit about trolling) Neveruse, what exactly are you afraid of? If someone blanks your talk page obviously we will deal with it. If they just say something insulting, that's their right and nobody should revert it. Tetronian you're clueless 22:29, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Why is it that when someone confesses to trolling, we let them keep trolling? EddyP (talk) 22:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
This community requires regular trolling. We'd get bored without it. Broccoli (talk) 22:43, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Regardless of the trolling, I think this issue is worth discussing. Obviously article talk pages should never be protected, but user talk pages are a bit different, because of the constant annoyance from the orange box/email. -- Nx / talk 22:46, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
So how about 'don't protect user talk pages without first setting up some other page for people to contact/abuse you on'? Broccoli (talk) 22:48, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
As I said before, the orange box/e-mail can be easily disabled using 'my preferences'. EddyP (talk) 22:49, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Why not just make a template that clearly states the user can't/won't respond to any comments or questions because they've quit, or something? AndyToad.gifNorsemanCyser Melomel 22:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
The email can be disabled; the orange box can't. And that's not the point. If user A is causing a large amount of disruption to user B, should it really be user B's responsibility to change the way they want to view the site to stop it? A brief period of protection may be in order, from my POV, but I'd like to hear other opinions. Certainly, the length of protection we've seen so far is out of order. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 22:57, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Protection from concerted wandalism/spambots makes sense, but sysops protecting pages on a whim makes little sense. Broccoli (talk) 23:00, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree with the vegetable above me. Gooniepunk2010 Oi! Oi! Oi! 23:03, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
Absolutely. It shouldn't be done on a whim, ever. A consistent, sustained period of wandalism or bot interference should probably warrant a brief block though. –SuspectedReplicantretire me 23:05, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

No protection of talkpages does seem like a good rule and I would support it, but I remember an occasion were Fall down and Mei were edit warring on my talk page over the level of a comments indentation. I got so sick of seeing that yellow box I semi-protected my talk page for an hour, so I think no locking of talkpages, should have a common sense exception. - π 23:07, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

In other words, we don't need to make a separate protection rule for talkpages - the same policy should apply as with articles: avoid protecting at all, but do it occasionally & temporarily where there is a real need for it. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:58, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

Blocking section needs updating

The option to allow a blocked user to edit their talk page contradicts what this page says ("if the blockee is not a sysop, they have no way of protesting [the block]") -- Nx / talk 03:46, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Also, I would like to add that we should make an exception for spambots, as they are typically undeterred by the vandal brake,as they are set to edit at a certain rate that is usually less than once per 30 minutes. It doesn't need to be a permaban, just one long enough to disrupt the program. The Goonie 1 What's this button do? Uh oh.... 03:50, 29 April 2010 (UTC)

Dealing with threats

I think we need to have a discussion and a plan in place for dealing with situations where a user makes a specific threat of harm to themselves or another person. Vague, non-specific, trolling posts, are probably best dealt with through deletion (and oversite if particularly bad) and then ignoring them.

But if there is any credibility to the threat it is probably not a good idea to ignore it. Wikipedia which has more experience with this than hopefully we ever will has several policy discussions (see here and here). The gist of it is removal of the offending material, limiting editing/contact with the individual, and using administrative tools to locate the user and contact local authorities who are in a better situation to assess the issue and chose a response.

One issue we have is that there are only 2 people on the site who have anyway of discovering the IP address and location of a user. We do not have checkuser installed so there is no way to expand on that either. One potential solution is to bite the bullet and activate checkuser, giving it to a small number of people who would only use it for emergency situations.

There maybe a lot of other ways to handle it as well. Just seems like a conversation the community should have. tmtoulouse 13:50, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

I had a lot of involvement in the Wikipedia method developing. Basically, the idea is that deciding the sincerity of such a thing is WAY outside the competence of pretty much anyone on the site - so contacting the authorities is the way to go. It's also one of the few circumstances in which one can just release an IP to someone else (the police or the ISP). If they're in sincere trouble, then getting the authorities to them is good - and if they're trolling, then having the police show up and ask them not to be silly is also good ;-)
It's different here to Wikipedia because this is a tiny wiki/forum/thing where we know each other virtually (200 editors any month), not a huge thing the size of a small city (135,000 editors any month). But I think the principle is basically sensible.
And, y'know, in such circumstances I'd rather be trolled than not act when I could have - David Gerard (talk) 13:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
The above is addressing threats of harm to oneself, not to others - David Gerard (talk) 13:56, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Even with checkuser enabled it doesn't mean that you would be able to locate someone. Not everybody has a permanent individual IP.  Lily Inspirate me. 14:36, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Unless the person is behind a proxy that will refuse to provide information to authorities it is always possible to find someone. ISPs can give the account information of the user who had a given IP address at a specific time. The point though isn't for us to worry about that, but rather be prepared to know what we should do given a particular circumstance. tmtoulouse 14:41, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
Another point that I think we should decide is that suggestions that individuals will harm themselves in some way will always be treated as real.--BobSpring is sprung! 14:55, 2 May 2010 (UTC)
I did one where I emailed the ISP (cc WMF) with "this person on this IP at this time from your ISP has posted this suicide note, do please contact their local police" - David Gerard (talk) 14:58, 2 May 2010 (UTC)

Not linking to Nazis

"This is so we don't contribute to driving up their standing in search engine results." But ... we nofollow external links by default! So this doesn't actually apply. Is there any other reason not to link to Nazis? (I'm thinking specifically of European Union Times, where the links are references) - David Gerard (talk) 15:23, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Oh but of course! Someone might go there and read what they say. Imagine if everyone had read and analyzed Mein Kampf before WWII. Certainly there would have been more believers then disbelievers. ;-) Lumenos (talk) 21:41, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I tried reading that thing in high school. I lasted about five pages - David Gerard (talk) 21:43, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
No need to read it now. Racism, genocide, etc, is new and improved. Lumenos (talk) 23:55, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Undo for discussion

"External links to websites purely devoted to hate (Neo-Nazi, Christian Identity, Metapedia and so on) should be avoided per longstanding community consensus, except as needed for on-mission purposes. Use your common sense (so rare, it's a goddamn superpower)."

The italicised section was the addition I undid. While I can see what Dave meant because I remember the article he did it on (using footnote links to justify what we said about some site), it's not very clear in this wording. Following "longstanding community consensus" with a vague exception pretty much cancels the concept out. ħumanUser talk:Human 00:00, 15 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree. In hindsight it may be better to keep snark out of this and be entirely direct. i.e. "External links to websites purely devoted to hate (Neo-Nazi, Christian Identity, Metapedia and so on) should only be used when required to provide necessary background to an article. Links to such sites should carry a warning of their content." This removes the contradiction but I think it captures the stance we agreed on in the forum discussion. ConcernedResident omg ponies!!! 00:54, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I approve of the above comment and would not complain if it replaced the current wording. Can you work the "longstanding" bit into it though? ħumanUser talk:Human 01:03, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Heh, not sure it is longstanding, except maybe in a kind of unofficial way (given we've been linking to Phelps and company for some time). I think the original version was controversial, given that it arguably went against the notion of free exchange of ideas and rationality, so it needed some kind of strongly implied community agreement, but a more pragmatic approach (linking to the shite when we're talking about it) seems easy enough to accept as is. I know only a few people chipped in to the forum thread so I could be misjudging this, and I wasn't around when the original consensus came about. What do you think? ConcernedResident omg ponies!!! 01:11, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
It started by accident when I deleted the simple EL to MP with the edit comment "we don't link to racist garbage". It sorta took hold, over the last three years. When MP trolls came here during the very brief RW/MP wars, they'd undo it or insert it. So the point ended up "don't bother to link to their mainpage". However, if we are refuting a site, especially a more active one, we need to be able to add footnotes that link to them. ħumanUser talk:Human 01:32, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Does this issue need to be in the CS at all? It only got added very recently, & the amount of discussion generated kindof underlines that the "longstanding community consensus" really isn't as hard & fast as this text would imply. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it's been there a long time. Can you find it being "added recently"? ħumanUser talk:Human 20:33, 15 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, 31st May. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 06:39, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Is there consensus?

The policy currently reads "External links to websites purely devoted to hate (Neo-Nazi, Christian Identity, Metapedia and so on) should be avoided per longstanding community consensus." There is a vote here and consensus is going the opposite direction. I would go ahead and remove the... ahem bullshit "policy" claim (or add a snarky reference to the vote) but I fear being blocked by whichever mob member may find this offensive. Lumenos (talk) 01:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The "consensus" is based on over three years of general agreement. If the mob wants to change it it should be discussed at talk:community standards (here) not on some random forum page many people might be aware of. ħumanUser talk:Human 03:28, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I've only seen the evidence of general disagreement. Where is the evidence of general agreement? I think we should link each policy to a subpage with a poll to show exactly who agrees or does not agree with them. Keep the poll open all the time, so that anyone who is reading the policy will be more inclined to vote rather than think to themselves "this wiki doesn't reflect my opinions or preferences". Lumenos (talk) 04:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh shut up. First, you have no idea what you're talking about (see history of metapedia article). Second, you are the least organized thinker I have seen in quite a while, so your "ideas" of how to "manage" RW are not even funny. ħumanUser talk:Human 05:17, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
What has happened here? You were being so polite. Let me see if I understand your argument here. "There is consensus. Poll showing exactly the opposite consensus means nothing because you don't know the history. There is no need for any more polling because I know the history." Lumenos (talk) 05:54, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, pretty much. The poll is not directly related to the question at hand. ħumanUser talk:Human 06:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
If there is some other question don't let me stop you from dealing with that.
You've said that the poll is in too obscure a location. I "agree" that a poll could be in a better location. What location would be more noticeable than a link from the policy page? Then there would be no confusion as to how much consensus there is. What's the problem?
Lumenos (talk) 06:19, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Stop sign.svg

This conversation is about to go badly downhill, inevitably ending in comparisons to Hitler, and hurt feelings all around.
Stop now. Step away from the keyboard.
Go pet a jerboa, or milk a goat.

AnarchoGoon Swatting Assflys is how I earn my living 05:56, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I promise not to be hurt or compare anyone to Hitler. ;) Lumenos (talk) 06:15, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Lumenous I think Human's point is that changing the Community Standards is somewhat like changing the Constitution. It should have widespread, prolonged discussion, amongst a lot of people, preferably here. Last time we did a side-by-side so we could see what is being discussed. - π 06:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

So why is an alleged policy that was summarily added to the Standards two weeks ago being treated as sacred? This clause is really more trouble than it's worth: I say just delete it again & deal with this issue on a case-by-case basis, as we have done until now. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 06:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
I wasn't talking about changing the standards (yet) I was talking about either referencing the claim that there is consensus, or removing it. A poll that is always open would allow people to change their vote and allow newcomers to see exactly how much support any policy has. Lumenos (talk) 06:39, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
You don't have to reference the community standards, they are the community standards. That is like asking for a reference to the First Amendment. - π 06:46, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
You don't have to but when we have a poll that shows exactly the opposite of what the supposed community standards claim, it would help to establish what the community standards actually are. Lumenos (talk) 06:55, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
That is what this page is for. Again if we want to change it we will, but only after a proper discussion. - π 07:01, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
That is fine but I think a poll should be used to summarize the results and precisely quantify how much a "community standard" it really is. You can't convince me there was consensus on this issue before this "standard" was written when the poll is so far weighted the other way. Bob and David Gerard are crats, so these aren't insignificant voters. Lumenos (talk) 07:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Personally, I am of the opinion I couldn't convince you of anything you don't already believe. 07:31, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Nx's edit to the blocking section...

Nx, read your edit out loud: "The purpose of the vandal bin is to avoid the problems of blocking (specifically, that if the blockee is not a sysop, they can't continue to vandalize and troll, except on their talk page)." So the "problem of blocking" is that vandals/trolls "can't continue to vandalize and troll..."? How exactly is that a problem? P-Foster (talk) 16:33, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, because we like to feed the trolls and revert vandalism. It makes us feel manly. -- Nx / talk 16:34, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Stop being a smartass/using a community page as a way to vent your spleen. If you don't like how things are working--a justifiable complaint--this (edit warring w/MC over a completely nonsensical edit) really isn't the most productive way of handling it. P-Foster (talk) 16:37, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Who said I wanted to be productive? -- Nx / talk 16:41, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
It's often assumed that bureaucrats have been allowed this privilege because the owner felt they were capable of being "productive" in one way or another. Lumenos (talk) 00:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not a bureaucrat. -- Nx / talk 00:09, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry. I thought you were way back when. Now I don't know. Lumenos (talk) 00:24, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Oh I see "Nx" apparently demoted yourself: 21:16, 3 June 2010 Nx (Talk | contribs | block) changed group membership for User:Nx from Bureaucrats and Sysops to (none) ‎ (Abuse)
Great show! Hum but then there were rumors of squabbles with Human and Hoover? I'm not sure who will re-promote you. Lumenos (talk) 02:33, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Why use the vandal bin instead of blocking?

-- Nx / talk 17:03, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

[1] P-Foster (talk) 17:05, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes I see that, but my question was: WHY use the vandal bin instead of blocking? -- Nx / talk 17:07, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I dunno Nx. Tell you what--why don't you pull some poorly-written, poorly-constructed piece of prose out of your ass and throw it on the page all by your lonesome and then edit-war whenver someone objects to a unilateral change to the community standards page? That seems like the best way to handle it. P-Foster (talk) 17:09, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I can't think of any reason to keep using the vandal bin other than being able to play with trolls. -- Nx / talk 17:15, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

People on page-blanking spreees? P-Foster (talk) 17:21, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

THOSE ARE VALUABLE MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY BE RATIONAL WE'RE TURNING INTO CP ARGHGGHHGHGHSHSHGHGHG!!!! --Kels (talk) 17:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, because vandal binning them will prevent them from blanking the page (except every 30 minutes), while blocking them is completely ineffective. -- Nx / talk 17:24, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
If I remember right, the rationale was that blocking someone encourages socking to get around the block, but putting a 30-minute restriction on them doesn't. Apparently that's enough to prevent someone from taking 30 seconds to sock up and not be restricted at all. It goes back to the idea of engaging with wandals and trolls, rather than just blocking them and doing something enjoyable instead. Or paranoia about being accused of being like CP. Or something. --Kels (talk) 17:37, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I think that we've been through this before. Blocking people has generally been against our "free speech" ethos. In part this was because of the original reaction against CP's blocking style. But if this now needs to be changed then it should be as a result of a site-wide discussion. The mobocracy does not give an individual editor the right to change these standards because they believe their views are obviously right.
Having said that, it is possible that we may need other forms of decision making mechanisms. At the moment some editors seem to think that the quickest way of making changes is simply doing them and the surviving the ensuing HCM - this may not be the best system. --BobSpring is sprung! 18:01, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
What Bob said. This would be a pretty major change to how things are handled, & trying to implement it just by making changes to this page ain't gonna take. If you're serious about it, open a forum thread & announce it on the intercom so that everyone knows what's being proposed. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:08, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Bob is far too reasonable to survive in this cesspit. The reality is that a small cadre/elite are forming a leadership faction by themselves, eschewing consensus or discussion, instead intent on creating rules and policies, making templates and screwing around with presentation like a wikipedia fanboy on an internet camp summer holiday. And the worst thing is that you simply allowed this to happen, because you are too spineless, because you are too indifferent to liberal values, to rationalism, instead embracing authoritarianism and a disgraceful oligarchy. Who is at the center of this conspiracy? J'accuse Nx, the man who ruined Rationalwiki and who is intent on making this a mirror site of wikipedia for the kind of editors over there who are virgins and irritating little shits, what with their constant meme perpetuation and sexually frustrated hysterical-isms. (EX- PFoster) 74.63.112.147 (talk) 18:10, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
I was merely pointing out that the sentence "if the blockee is not a sysop, they have no way of protesting it" was false. And, since I'm just a troll, I'd rather just point out why the current policy is stupid instead of trying to fix it. -- Nx / talk 18:11, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Our BON above may have the objective of creating dissent. However, anything which changes the thrust of the community standards really should be debated first. While it may seem obvious to the individual editor a note saying "I intend to change this." might be a better way to proceed. --BobSpring is sprung! 18:17, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
RWW has an apt description: "It’s like being blocked, except RW sysops can pretend they are better than Conservapedia." http://rationalwikiwiki.org/wiki/Vandal_bin -- Nx / talk 18:28, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
RWW may, or may not, be correct - but changes to CS should be debated.--BobSpring is sprung! 18:40, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Ok then, debate away. -- Nx / talk 18:45, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks Nx. Chat-smiley.gif But the thing is that I'm not proposing a change. So I'm reluctant to make a suggestion about changes.--BobSpring is sprung! 19:57, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Your blocking policy is built on a premise that is no longer true (blocked user can't complain about their block) and the irrational fear of being labeled "just as bad as CP". Read this -- Nx / talk 22:14, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
"Your blocking policy..."? Wtf, now you think of RW as being an entity that does not include you? Insane. ħumanUser talk:Human 08:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
David Gerard can certainly be added to the list of authoritarian wikipedians intent on ruining this site rational and liberal values. His behaviour is thoroughly perplexing. I reckon he is a spawn or automoton of Nx, and not a sentient person, because nobody could possibly be as despicable as him. 74.63.112.137 (talk) 19:23, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
We aim to please - David Gerard (talk) 19:49, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I must say, we're doing a bang-up job preventing the place from being overrun with bad-faith trolls and general disruption. Fight on, free speech warriors! --Kels (talk) 20:02, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

You're right Kels, RW is a most feared fortress in the Troll-Verse. Acei9 22:18, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
If I may, I like the vandal bin as an option because, unlike restricting people to their talkpage, the vandal bin allows people the chance to make constructive, redeeming edits to articles. I have used the talkpage-only restriction as a backup when they continued anyways. Conservative Punk (talk) 08:12, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Rewording to reflect reality

1. Nx is correct in pointing out what has become an error of fact, regarding blocked users generally being permitted to edit their talk page. However, the wordings I read during the part of the edit war I went through weren't the improvements needed.

2. The "Oh noes you been blocked" screen needs a few improvements. The one relative to this topic is it should specifically tell the blockee that they can edit their talk page, with a link to it, because they might not know. Perhaps they should also be able to edit the blocking sysop's talk page, too?

2b. The block message should also say who imposed the block and how long it is for, and also perhaps how much of it is left. Possibles? ħumanUser talk:Human 23:53, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Proposed section for trolls

We really ought to settle our policy on how we handle trolls (or rather, a troll). Some people revert troll's edit on sight and block him for an hour or two. Other's feel that we should preserve our principles of openness and acceptance, and it's better to just ignore him. Whole mini-HCMs spring up just over whether or not we can revert his talk page edits.

My opinion is that we have tried to just ignore him—and we have failed. Like it or not, said troll has managed to corrupt numerous threads with his mere presence. I feel we cannot let this continue. So I am proposing an addition to the community standards detailing an official policy for handling trolls:

Trolls with an established history of maliciousness and bad faith edits can/will have their edits reverted on sight and their account and/or IP may be banned for up to one day.

--Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:56, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Oh, and for this one thread at least, if said troll does comment, can we please we move his comments into their own section. I don't want him to derail this thread, too, or for it to turn into yet another fight over revert-or-not-to-revert. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:58, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Reverting them means you are acknowledging them and that will just encourage them. -- Nx / talk 23:59, 5 June 2010 (UTC)
Numbers needed to back this assertion - David Gerard (talk) 00:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
MC is still here. -- Nx / talk 00:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
MC would still be here anyway. Trolls are like that. - David Gerard (talk) 00:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
If the rule is "Marcus Cicero can just fuck off", possibly it should be stated in those terms. Generalising from a single example is a bad idea. i.e., get the Zionist Occupation Government to declare the troll known as MC is unwelcome; don't write it into the community rules, or you'll just get rules-lawyering - David Gerard (talk) 00:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Are you talking about the Loya Jirga? Should we get them to rule on this? Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Them or whoever; I mean whoever has the power to declare such things - David Gerard (talk) 00:14, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Do you think I should go ahead and do that, or wait for others to weigh in here first? Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:18, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
For trolls, MC in particular, I just vandal, revert, carry on with my day. Acei9 00:36, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but a few people feel we should leave their comments in—this is an attempt to hash out these two different approaches. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Why not use the roll-up template like WP has? It was very effective in derailing several substantive discussions at wp:Talk:Conservapedia lately. — Unsigned, by: RobSmith / talk / contribs
RobSmith
My feeling would be why leave them in? Revert, ignore. That'd be my vote anyway. We already have enough sensless garbage. Acei9 00:42, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Some people are starting to remove Earthland's comments because they consider him a troll. And then you'll be just like CP. -- Nx / talk 00:44, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Nx, you are being a baby. I agree that EL's comments should not have been deleted but a user made them small on his own talkpage - you could have just left it at that as a compromise. Acei9 00:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I can understand why people would revert my comments, because I'm an abusive cunt, but Gerards reverting of Earthland and his weird justification (A mildly Maoist rattling off of purity, of those who belong and those who don't) is a terrible precedent and you'd be wise to see it. This is me with my serious hat on. And this is all I will have to say on the matter. I'm officially retired. 86.40.97.129 (talk) 01:01, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
We'll need a definition of some sort, and it has to be better than "I know one when I see one". And I'll say I disagree with the proposal, but I know that means I'm just not thinking of the children... ħumanUser talk:Human 02:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
"Trolling herein defined shall be anything misconstrued as supportive of the anti-science movement, Christian fundamentalism, or people we (the mob) just don't like." nobsdon't bother me 02:34, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

"Trolling shall be defined as edits made with the sole intention of attacking, disparaging or insulting individual users or the commuity at large, edits made with the intent of sowing discord among users, or edits made with the intent of undermining the stated objectives of the community." P-Foster (talk) 02:38, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

I like it. Acei9 02:39, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
edits made with the intent of sowing discord among users. Ace your recent edits & DFRS template would be trolling, then. nobsdon't bother me 02:53, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, that's different, Rob. That was directed at you, not a "member of the community". P-Foster (talk) 02:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I've been a member, and member in good standing, longer than most of you. I was a registered user & sysoped among perhaps the first 40 users.— Unsigned, by: RobSmith / talk / contribs
Then why can't you remember to sign your posts, like you're some n00b? P-Foster (talk) 03:08, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Member, yes, but good standing? That's funny, Rob. --Kels (talk) 03:11, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Have I ever vandalized or abused sysop rights? I've only contributed solid, stimulating; intellectually challenged discussion. nobsdon't bother me 03:20, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I like it, too. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 02:47, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Whether "intellectually challenged" was intentional or not, it's hilarious. And, no, you never even used your "sysop rights", although you show many signs of not actually understanding how this site works. But there was that one thing you did for a month and a half where you attacked myself and others on wikipedia, for no other reason than that we were RW editors. For that rudeness you will never be forgiven. And then when WP told you to go screw and stop wasting their time, you dragged your bizarre theories back here. That is why you were blocked and desysopped. Now you are not blocked. You will never be resysopped, at least until Aschlafly permabans you from CP for being a "member of a vandal site". ħumanUser talk:Human 07:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
This is not the forum to discuss these matters, however I "attacked" no one;" I made certain efforts to improve WP's Conservapedia entry, which required holding certain users past editing practices to account. Using your standard -- that past behaviour is unforgivable -- don't ask me to unblock you at CP or argue your case; RW is well on its way of duplicating existing CP policies. And the record shows I was effective in accomplishing certain things in Wikipedia, one being breaking the stranglehold of control certain editors had over content. Neutral Admins now are at least are aware of the problem; and simply because no disputing party was interesting in pursuing the dispute to the point of pursuing action against other users, our differences were kept on the plain of article improvement, for which Wikipedia is all the better now. This is how Wikipedia works. Rationalwiki's policy development governing user conduct and dispute resolution has quite a way to go yet, so be careful of precedent. I edit under my real life name, and I'll be goddammed if I allow some slimey little fuck to fuck-wit-me. nobsdon't bother me 12:35, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I find both it to be useless, sadly, since how are we to determine "intent"? ħumanUser talk:Human 02:58, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Key word is "misconstrued;" it gives flexibility. nobsdon't bother me 03:04, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I think it can be pretty clear given context--I tell you or Ace to fuck off, and we know it's in good fun/in the heat of a debate/not trolling. Some BON logs on to say that RA is a fat fuck who can't get it up and lives in his mother's basement, while pretty much being truthful, is trolling. P-Foster (talk) 03:00, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
And the above comment is not trolling? How can you create a policy against trolling when you yourself are abusive pricks. -- Nx / talk 11:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not so sure it's that easy. Keep in mind that we invite people to come here and debate "us". ħumanUser talk:Human 03:06, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
"anything misconstrued" gives the sysop the flexibility to misinterpret intent anyway he/she sees fit--a common practice already. nobsdon't bother me 03:10, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Deciding what to do with persistent trolls is supposed to be handled on a case-by-case basis by the Loya Jirga, if the community is unable to agree on a solution without them. This is what the LJ was founded for, & still hasn't done yet. Trying to define who or what constitutes a troll & a specific policy towards them is a bad idea. If there's a general feeling among the community that somebody is a troublemaker, that should be enough to start talking about how to handle them. The Standards should say something about the LJ, but maybe we should wait till after they've actually handled a case so we know what to write about them. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 09:01, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, there's been ample opportunity for these people to stand up and take action - or decide not to take action and say so. But as nothing has happened at all, I either see the need to cement what this LJ thing does or refine the concept further. For instance, the LJ is composed of many people, and undoubtedly there's too much diffusion of responsibility for any of them to take the action needed - or maybe we elected people who don't have the best interests of the site at heart and wanted to let a bunch of numbers attack people personally and quite brutally causing headaches for most of us who consider themselves rational and intelligent. This whole "the LJ should do something" thing has been going around, but it's a totally empty threat because I've seen no one take a stand against this crap. Do we need to call it by projecting a goat symbol onto the sky or something? Scarlet A.pngd hominem 09:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
The LJ is only supposed to get involved if called upon by the mob to address an issue. Thus far, I don't even see an "issue" to take to them, just a bunch of people crying about talk page posts they don't like. ħumanUser talk:Human 09:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
"brutally". This is the internet. We are grownups. "brutally" involves the sense of physical violence. I don't understand what your complaint is. ħumanUser talk:Human 09:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm up for reverting anything MC posts. He's been quite clear in his intentions, and the LJ itself appeared as a result of our inability to decide one way or the other how to deal with him. In an off way he's actually been oddly helpful in highlighting this problem now while we're still small enough to formulate a response. It was going to happen sooner or later, and it's better it happened now. Reverting of talk comments should not normally happen unless it's a persistent troll or something that breaks our policies; i.e. personal attacks, disclosure of personal information, or illegal content. The danger here is that we end-up reverting someone just because they dissent or express an unpopular view. Pee Foster's summary looks pretty good: "Trolling shall be defined as edits made with the sole intention of attacking, disparaging or insulting individual users or the commuity at large, edits made with the intent of sowing discord among users, or edits made with the intent of undermining the stated objectives of the community." It should be made clear though that trolling is not simply disagreeing and wanting to indefinitely argue an unpopular point (the Earthland clause). Yes it's open to interpretation, but it's kind of difficult to have a hard rule that won't prevent the usual harmless banter. We should normally be able to decide on this, but if not then punt it to the LJ for a decision. It's a wiki, so if someone should make the wrong decision it can later be put right. Blocks should only be for hours, except in extreme cases (such as TK's legal threats). ConcernedResident omg ponies!!! 09:44, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
How about reverting anything 86.x.x.x posts? How about anything someone disagrees with? ħumanUser talk:Human 09:48, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
While I agree with most of what you said, how do we propose to determine the "intent" of a post? ħumanUser talk:Human 09:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
For fucks sake are you trolling yourself or illiterate: CR clearly said "It should be made clear though that trolling is not simply disagreeing and wanting to indefinitely argue an unpopular point" and pretty much everyone agrees with this. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 09:49, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Fuck off, troll. ħumanUser talk:Human 09:52, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
By the way, implying that I am trolling pretty much destroyed any ability to define "troll". ħumanUser talk:Human 10:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
My opinion is that a case should be raised on Administrative Abuse for any user who is causing serious grief to the community, & that AA should be renamed to something less specific since a troublemaker is a troublemaker, regardless of whether they're abusing administrative abilities or not. The community can then discuss there what action should be taken. If we're unable to agree on a solution, it should then be referred to LJ to take more decisive action. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 09:53, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Makes sense. The LJ shouldn't be some kind of thing that allows us to abdicate all our decision making to a small group. I think they were only introduced to break those deadlocked situations in which we go around in circles throwing toys out of the pram. --ConcernedResident omg ponies!!! 09:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, but how do you define this "deadlock"? Does it count as deadlock now? Was it deadlock yesterday? Will it only be deadlock tomorrow? Does it not count as deadlock until every user has chimed in? Does it count as deadlock if only one person is dissenting? Is it deadlock if everyone starts taking the piss and votes "goat" for everything? It's all well and good saying that we have this system for emergency purposes, but we can't easily define such a thing. What if we put up the bat-sign for the LJ and someone says "but I don't think it's appropriate" and we have yet another circular discussion, not about the actual item, but about what route to deal with it and we get back to square one. If you're going to give additional responsibility to people (I have to say responsibility and certainly not "rights") it should be all or nothing. Otherwise this group is then just impotent. We've had several cases where a decisive force could have stepped in to stop people being dicks to each other so we can get on and do what we're supposed to do, but people have just said "fuck that, that's fascism" and things have carried on as normal. The LJ was put in place, it's changed nothing. It's clear that it doesn't work. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 10:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Nobody has ever "put up the bat sign" for the LJ yet, so hypothetical musings about how they might fail are a bit premature. The LJ is a group, not individuals. ħumanUser talk:Human 10:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
And it therefore has the failings of a group, such as diffuse responsibility. Not to mention that its purpose, method of action and practically everything about it has this mythical status and no one seems to know what to do about it. Should people have to call on it, whatever "it" is or should it step in and sort shit out before it becomes too much. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 10:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Test us. We are explicitly prohibited from acting unilaterally. We are only allowed to even contemplate action when petitioned by the mob. Feel free to test the process, before you judge it. ħumanUser talk:Human 10:19, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Here's a peripheral view: the LJ is a largely a beauty contest staffed with bloated egos and career opportunists more interested in padding a resume than dispensing fairness or protecting the bests interests of the RW Foundation. What makes them qualified to replace God or the Politburo or whatever? nobsdon't bother me 12:51, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Putting up the bat-sign

Okay then. Consider this the first call for the LJ to do something. Since we're treating it like some nuclear weapon. No more discussion, no more bloody dithering, you guys were granted some emergency power, wield it as you see fit. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 10:21, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not really how to do it. Please start a forum, say, and present the grief. Also make sure all the LJ members know it's there. Or do something technically similar to what I suggest - 1. call them all; 2. present the problem. If you're serious, I'm sure we/they will deliberate solemnly. ħumanUser talk:Human 10:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I'd hope that everyone in the LJ has that page observed anyway. Probably the best way to notice cases. --ConcernedResident omg ponies!!! 10:28, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Looking at the membership, most will be aware of this. It's also added to the LJ page, when I found it. Also, as Human is a member, I assume he has the authority to start it. If you're just stalling by citing some less-than-well-established procedure, please just say so. Scarlet A.pngd hominem 10:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not stalling anything. The mob needs to bring a case to the LJ, the LJ is not empowered to act unilaterally. Please bring said case and state it somewhere, then ping all of us to address it, if that is your desire. ħumanUser talk:Human 11:16, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
LJ is still a man down, unless somebody pulls something out of that abandoned by-election page. I'm not clear what the issue being offered for LJ is right now. Most of yesterday's HCM relates to Nx edit-warring & generally being a prick, which has already been raised on AA. Apparently he's removed himself from server access(?) - it should probably be left at that for now unless it starts up again. The MC issue is no different now than it ever was, but if it's time to put it to LJ, so be it: in fact I thought that was what they supposed to agree on right after they were elected. The issue of whether the vandal bin is abolished in favour of blocking with the talk-page option is a community issue & needs to be discussed a lot more (by the community, not LJ) before any change is made. ωεαşεζøίɗWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 10:40, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

The LJ is useless and should be abolished. If you don't like it that someone who doesn't agree with your ideology comes here to argue with you, then don't encourage them to do that on the main page. If you don't like MC's abusive language and insults, then write rules against that and enforce them... oh wait, but that would mean that a few long-time members would have to be blocked as well - how unfortunate. -- Nx / talk 11:22, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Except for your first sentence, most of what you say is correct. We simply don't know yet if the LJ is useless, since we have never "used" it. ħumanUser talk:Human 11:25, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Bullshit. The LJ is not some wise council sitting in a magical tower far removed from the daily happenings of the wiki. They're users like everyone else, who get involved in these conflicts. At one point they should step in and do something - that's why they exist. But instead everyone, even LJ members, whine that "the Loya Jirga should do something", but it never goes beyond that whining. -- Nx / talk 11:31, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
Arguably the people who most commonly step in are not in the LJ. If the LJ is not inclined to step in then it could at least provide support (or condemnation) of people who step in to fix a situation. --ConcernedResident omg ponies!!! 11:50, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
What a process, looking for a test victim for a test case. I better STFU. That will improve the site. nobsdon't bother me 12:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Blah blah blah

  • what about us? u can't block us on sight because sometimes we help u u ungrateful jerks! oh and for whoever stole our proxy FUCK UR MOM NIGGER FIND UR OWN PROXY! Cheerleader Vandal 20:08 5 June 2010 fuck you douchebag 67.159.36.20 (talk) 00:13, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
See, you're quite nice compared to MC - David Gerard (talk) 00:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)
sometimes i'm nice right now i feel like being an asshole 67.159.36.22 (talk) 00:27, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

see? just the way i wrote that made you mad but the content was real. it's so funny to troll you because you feed us so well. no rangeblocks, no bans, no indef blocks, just drama. i actually kind of like it because i can be an asshole and still be a somewhat active and respected person here when i'm nice but it's not practical for you to say let mc continue forever and ever. if grawp were active here you people would die fighting his bullshit. 67.159.36.24 (talk) 02:43, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Grawp was here years ago, n00b. P-Foster (talk) 02:45, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

i'm sorry for being a troll will you forgive me? 66.90.73.223 (talk) 02:55, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Mini-revamp

Is there enough issues with the community standards to start a mini-revamp? My idea is to archive this shit and start a few coherent discussion on a few of the contentious sections like last time. - π 07:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)