Draft talk:Anarchism

I would suggest that there should be a difference made between "Anarchism" as a political philosophy and "anarchy" as it is popularly understood: a synonym for chaos.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 10:50, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

You are free to edit. All I want is a version that is not whitewashed by anarchists. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:23, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

in practice

this section didnt work in the other anarchism page and does not work here. i would suggest some people actually look at why it doesnt work rather than ignoring all criticism. AMassiveGay (talk) 12:34, 16 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, that section should be deleted or expanded to add historical context (such as the fact that revolutions were crushed by communists and fascists) rather than spreading centrist propaganda.--Tuxer (talk) 14:52, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

What is centrist propaganda? Reality? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 14:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

Are you even capable of self-reflection? They said to point out historical context, you idiot. — Oxyaena ^Harass 14:56, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The same reality you refuse to talk about, Raven?--Tuxer (talk) 16:44, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

The reality that anarchism failed multiple times. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:48, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

"Failed" is nice way of saying crushed. The Soviet Union failed. Anarchist Ukraine was crushed (by the communists that founded the SU btW). Not that you care about facts.--Tuxer (talk) 16:54, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

I agree, communism failed too. What's the contention here? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:55, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

"Crushed" isn't equivalent to having "failed." — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:00, 18 June 2020 (UTC)

If you want something done right...

Do it yourself. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 20:58, 19 June 2020 (UTC)

Question

Why the hell does this article exist when we have an identical mainspace one?--Delibirda the Annoying Grammar Nazi (talk) 21:01, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

Because a bunch of users want to make significant changes and are creating their hypothetical alternate version here first.-Flandres (talk) 21:04, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

@Delibirda Because certain users stonewalled any attempt at editing the main article. And you know what is also worse? The same users also blocked any attempt at editing THIS VERY SAME DRAFT, as you can check in the logs. So much that me and @EK had to edit it on our own userspace. I am sorry if I sound angry, because I am, but this only exists because the moderators refuse to condemn problematic users. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 21:06, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

thats a lie. you are a liar. the only stonewalling was from you and your insistence on an edit that was a. voted down, b. you made no effort at all to justify said edit, and c. made no effort to address the criticisms of your dog shit edit. AMassiveGay (talk) 22:14, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

People can check the logs. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 22:43, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

they can check the anarchism talk page too and see the bullshit you put on there too AMassiveGay (talk) 22:48, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

And the talk page of almost every article you edit to see how you always get shredded into thin red mist in mob votes and always rely on shoddy arguments that everyone, even people who are decidedly not members of this "far-left anarchist mob" you fantasize about, can easily see through.-Flandres (talk) 22:52, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

love you too honey — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 22:53, 22 June 2020 (UTC)

what counts as failed?/judging a political philosophy on its merits

Let's assume, I have a three wheeled car and you have a four wheeled car, and we are arguing about which car is better. Does me getting out of my car, slashing your tyres and ripping your steering wheel off prove that four wheeled cars don't work? I'm serious here. What if we assumed that it wasn't just me, but that there were lots of people who hated 4 wheel cars and anyone who bought one would have to contend with people trying to destroy their vehicle.

Would this make 3 wheel cars better than 4 wheel cars? In a broad sense... I suppose yes... Better in the sense that is relevant to a discussion about design and mechanical superiority? ....Maybe not... But what then would we say if asked 'Which is the better car?'?

This isn't just a point worth considering for the sake of anarchism. Most of the beloved liberal social democracies of the 20th century have seen their benefits offered to the average citizen rolled back in the face of corporately funded neo-liberal parties, with the social ideal of liberal multicultural tolerance frequently losing ground in the face of growing fascist and quasi-fascist populist movements. In what sense then has social democracy failed?

We can judge a political position based on its ability to work with or against opposing forces but that would seem to be a different question to the given work-ability of a political system. Liberal social democracy is a workable system, that has arguably been all but deleted by Capital and far-right nationalism. Some would argue that means social democracy is in need of abandoning in favour of something that isn't so easily co-opted and squashed. Some would say it is an ideal still worth fighting for. Same may be true for anarchism. Get ready, it's... (talk) 14:31, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

If you're in the mood for analogies, you appear to be attempting a panda defence of anarchism, in that it might work great if everyone else just left it the fuck alone to thrive in ideal circumstances. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 15:21, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Apologies but I'm not familiar with a 'panda defence', I googled around and couldn't find anything to help me. Would you mind expanding a little or pointing me to a link? The point is less about anarchism and more about political philosophy and the definition of 'works'. If the definition of works includes 'has not been crushed by competitors' then almost any political system can be declared unworkable, provided its opposition is large enough and sufficiently cut-throat.

That said I don't think arguing for a political system that crumbles the moment it is assailed is a particular worthwhile endeavour either. Get ready, it's... (talk) 15:46, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Your last sentence suggests you grasp the analogy just fine. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 16:14, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Rojava and the Zapatistas are still holding out after years, and in the case of the Zapatistas, decades of military imperialist pressure. Almost none of the "failures" listed fell in a day, @Tikitime. — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:52, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

Helena, you are going to have to give me more than that. I literally have no idea what analogy you are referring to.

Oxyaena, point taken. I have always thought that considering the resources and man-power most anarchist movements have had access to vs the resources and man-power available to their opposition, they have held out surprisingly well. It's difficult to quantify though. Get ready, it's... (talk) 17:20, 10 July 2020 (UTC)

White Supremacy and U.S. Police

Is the inclusion of this in the section on police really necessary? Wouldn't this belong more in WIGO:World or even our page on Law Enforcement? Get ready, it's... (talk) 23:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@Tikitime "Also American law enforcement has been infiltrated by white supremacists[42] and the Republican Party is welcoming white supremacists to join the military as well.[43]" Are you referring to this portion? If so, it does feel forced. Remove it and and maybe rewrite it in the article on law enforcement? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 23:28, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

It shouldn't be removed. Anarchists are strongly opposed to racism and fascism, in spite of what some think. Considering the Anglo-centrism of this wiki (which btw is inevitable considering that english speakers are more likely to come from the anglosphere), the infiltration of law enforcement by white supremacists is relevant.Tuxer (talk) 00:34, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

@GrammarCommie Yup. I'll take a look at touching it up soon hopefully. @GrammarCommie It's a point relevant to anarchist critiques of police forces but on its own it seems out of place. Get ready, it's... (talk) 00:57, 16 August 2020 (UTC) Tikitime

No it's not out of place. Anarchists oppose white supremacists, and white supremacist infiltration of the police is thus relevant to the topic.Tuxer (talk) 09:46, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Oathkeepers, 3%ers, these are to be ignored I suppose. — Z 13:06, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Antisemitism and Anarchism

We don't mention Antisemitism in our communism article, nor do we mention the racism of Adam Smith. I'm just wondering if there is a particular history connecting Antisemitism to Anarchism, otherwise it seems a bit odd to mention it just for the sake of it. Get ready, it's... (talk) 23:04, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@Tikitime You'd have to take that up with Raven, he added it. Personally I'm not surprised that Proudhon was an anti-Semite, given he was a European in the fucking 1800s... See also, Europe's long history of anti-antisemitism. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 23:24, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

@GrammarCommie Seems like an incredibly dumb thread to pursue considering Emma Goldman, David Graeber and Noam Chomsky are all jewish. Get ready, it's... (talk) 01:02, 16 August 2020 (UTC) Tikitime

It's Raven, what do you expect? — Oxyaena ^Harass 17:08, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Ben Shapiro is also Jewish, and he is anti-semitic as fuck. Don't forget Marx (Jewish and very anti-semitic). What is this? Right-wing straw-man identity politics? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 19:41, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

You've already been taken to task for Marx supposedly being anti-semitic. As a rule anarchists oppose bigotry, and you didn't answer why we don't mention the racism of Adam Smith. This section reads like a smear tactic. — Oxyaena ^Harass 20:34, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Section seemed fine to me. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 20:40, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't know if Adam Smith was racist (probably), but sure, if you find racist quotes of his, I will support posting his racist rants there. Do you think this is a gotcha? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 21:32, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Added "Schools of Thought" section and need help to expand anprim subsection

I added a ideology section that describes the different ideological bents of anarchism without creating an unncessary long list. For the anprim section, we need more sources especially because it's an horrid ideology that is hated by everyone across the political spectrum.Tuxer (talk) 22:21, 16 August 2020 (UTC)

Vote to keep or change Schools of Thought version

I created a new version of Schools of Thought, replacing the eye searing version with one that is concise and straightfoward.Tuxer (talk) 21:11, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Remove

1. This isn't radicalwiki. We don't need an exhaustive article on anarchism--Hastur! (talk) 11:58, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
2. ^ — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 12:39, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
3. Agreed with Hastur! This isn't part of our mission Gunther1987 (talk) 12:52, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
4. Yup. Ace^Moderator 21:25, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
5. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 00:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)
6. The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭 ^{talk stalk} 04:01, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Keep

1. Shameless self-promotion –Tuxer (talk) 12:37, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
2. The shit about "RadicalWiki" is just cringe as fuck. — Oxyaena ^Harass 16:56, 19 August 2020 (UTC)
3. Flandres (talk) 17:01, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Goat

This is my version

As the goals of anarchism is wide, there are many schools of anarchism that often do not agree with each other on the means of the goal and have cropped up in response to historical events. Modern anarchism, taken influence from post-modernism, Neo-Marxism, and intersectionality, including women and LGBT rights, believes the hierarchies disproportionately harm women and LGBT people. Others are more focused on environmentalism such as Green anarchism, that argues that the hierarchical state harms the environment, or even further such as Anarcho-primitivism, which argues that civilization itself is anti-ecological.

In fact, some anarchists consider themselves "anarchists without adjectives", not desiring to follow any one tendency but claiming to welcome all ideas. "Anarchism without adjectives" was founded as a response to the sectarian infighting among other schools of anarchist thought and began with the premise that all anarchist tendencies are equally valid. AWA is seen by some{{who}} as a modern version of Synthesis-Anarchism which extends to other models other than the three (Syndicalism, Communism and Individualism) that are embraced by synthesis anarchists. "Anarchists without adjectives" generally focus on de-legitimizing the state rather than on one particular conception of an anarchist society, believing that all else will naturally follow and a world without government will likely be heavily mixed.

Anarchism has always differed from marxism on two points:

• To anarchists the state and class rule are synonymous and a tool of the enforcement of one class' rule over another. Marxists, particularly those inspired by Lenin, believe that there must exist a transitional state during the revolution until it's finalized and then the state will whither away. This transitional state is called as dictatorship of the proleteriat which is the process in that the proletariat seizes the state and harnesses its power to suppress resistance to the socialist revolution. However libertarian Marxists criticise Leninist for their support for vanguardism, which would result in a one-party state. For libertarian marxists, the dictatorship of the proleteriat exists to expand democracy rather than to implement a minority rule.
• While marxist schools of thought always had a individual founder (Lennism, Trotskyism, Stalinism, Maoism etc), anarchist school of thought emerged based on organizational principle or form of practise.

So just a quick summary of all schools of thought. Anything needs to be fleshed out? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:37, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

An interesting alternative. It will need a bit of polishing because some of the sentences are awakward (ex: it should be "...including women and LGBT rights, believes that the gender hierarchies disproportionately harm women and LGBT people."). I like it, it's straightfoward enough.–Tuxer (talk) 22:45, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the goat version is good Vorarchivist (talk) 18:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

All right. Again, if anything needs to be fleshed out, just let me know. I might've missed some major themes recurring in those schools of thought. BTW, the grammar has been addressed. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:17, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

So...

What are we going to do with this now that Gutless Raven is gone? I know some especially bad drafts have been deleted before without an AfD-I just did not know what to do here because this not some stub, and a editor who is actually still here has put a lot of work in it. We already have a main space article and most of us seem okay with editing that rather than making a new one.-Flandres (talk) 03:59, 24 February 2021 (UTC)