Talk:Communism/Archive3

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This is an archive page, last updated 7 October 2021. Please do not make edits to this page.
Archives for this talk page: <1>, <2>, (new)(back)

Examples of non-shitty communism?[edit]

Could we have some examples of non-shitty communism? Are there any examples outside of democratically-elected communist governments in India? Italy, perhaps? Bongolian (talk) 18:24, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

Catch 22, a bit there. If your government changes hands all the time, how can it be a nominally communist government, unless every single political faction in the country is also communist? Socialist political leaders who get elected by legitimate popular vote tend to get deposed in coups; there's like 2 exceptions and they're working on one of them. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 18:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
I know there are plenty of non-shitty communist ideologies, but I'm still gonna need help from Oxy on this, as she is more knowledgeable on these subjects than I. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 19:15, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Communism isn't shitty already. It is the name of the classless, stateless society. This and this is what the shit looks like. --Comrade-yutyo (talk) 21:50, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, multiple, including the Korean Anarchist Association, multiple different anarchist communes, the libertarian socialist society of the Zapatistas, and Rojava. Hell, the USSR itself was actually democratic (worker councils called "soviets" ultimately called the shots, it's complicated) (although not necessarily libertarian) until Stalin came along, and Cuba is probably the only example where Marxism-Leninism actually works in practice. β€” Oxyaena Harass 22:27, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
From what I know of Communist theory this is correct. The USSR and its associated Blocs almost always billed themselves as "Socialist" and promised that "Communism would happen any day now". The confusion arises due to the leaders of the Western powers' using the "Communism" interchangeably with "Socialism", while understanding neither in a academic sense. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:41, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Yes, excatly! So why not solving that error at this page and every fix that is made is blindly reverted by a specific guy that has admiration to an italian dictator? --Comrade-yutyo (talk) 22:52, 30 April 2020 (UTC)
Will you please stop poisoning the well? That's been explained multiple times, and asserting it repeatedly does not make it so. And this level of hyperbole is really starting to annoy me. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:11, 30 April 2020 (UTC)


Can we please fix those politically incorrect terms? That is what many of the people want as they feel discriminated. --Comrade-yutyo (talk) 23:43, 30 April 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜If you don't call people what they call themselves and what the outside world also calls them, that's entering into No True Scotsman territory. The Communist Party of the Soviet Union, the Communist Party of China, and Mongolian People's Party had decades to create communist states, so either textbook-communism is effectively unattainable or what they did create was it. Bongolian (talk) 03:00, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Again, it's more complex than what you say. I don't wanna repeat myself. β€” Oxyaena Harass 13:19, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
I agree with her on this. @Bongolian contrary to what you say you are doing the same fallacy you charge me. You refer to marxism/leninism, which is a branch of socialism that has the goal of communism, as Communism itself. You associate the tool with the cause. --Comrade-yutyo (talk) 13:43, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

Since communism hasn't been tried out according to theory, that should have ended the debate. Since it didn't, here's some socialist societies that worked out better, even though there not communist: Catalonia (1936-1939), Zapatista controlled Chiapas (1994-now), Marinaleda and Yugoslavia (1945-1991).--Boredsocialist (talk) 15:03, 1 May 2020 (UTC)

the USSR, maoist China, and other countries all attempted communism. It definitely has been "tried out" EK (talk) 19:06, 1 May 2020 (UTC)
@Boredsocialist The Catalonian anarchists were anarcho-syndicalists, a variant of anarcho-communism. β€” Oxyaena Harass 03:13, 2 May 2020 (UTC)
@EK Just because something says it's something doesn't mean it is that. Is North Korea democratic because its in their name? No. Were the Nazis socialist because it was in their name? No. China and the USSR didn't have a stateless or moneyless society--Boredsocialist (talk) 15:40, 2 May 2020 (UTC)

How can Communism not be Authoritarian?[edit]

I mean, it's all about being a slave to the system, just like in capitalism. Both aren't that much different from each others. 2003:C3:3741:1600:E0A1:C185:51E6:E4DF (talk) 17:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

Define Communism please. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 17:42, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
You uh don't know jack about shit regarding communism. Only in genuine communism are we truly free from need and want, the thing is all so-called "communist" states openly admit(ted) that they were merely "transitional states" to communism, not genuine communism. They billed themselves as socialist, whether they were or not is a matter of debate, but this isn't the place for that discussion. β€” Oxyaena Harass 18:28, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
So communism is like heaven but for atheists? Being free from want is contrary to human nature. Bongolian (talk) 19:36, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Dear friend, I am neither Capitalist nor Communist. I am an independent thinker 2003:C3:3741:1600:2D51:F5F8:EB4C:D4B1 (talk) 21:50, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
Define Communism please. Or leave the discussion. I can answer the original question, but only if the BoN defines their terms. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:40, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

β”Œβ”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”€β”˜ @Bongolian "Free from want" is metaphorical, communism is essentially anything resembling a post-scarcity society plus the presence of no states and/or classes. It's not arguably achievable now, but socialism is. β€” Oxyaena Harass 22:54, 23 May 2020 (UTC)

To quote Wikipedia[edit]

In his critique of states run under Marxist–Leninist ideology, economist Michael Ellman of the University of Amsterdam notes that such states compared favorably with Western states in some health indicators such as infant mortality and life expectancy.[159] Philipp Ther [de] posits that there was an increase in the standard of living throughout Eastern Bloc countries as the result of modernization programs under communist governments.[160] Similarly, Amartya Sen's own analysis of international comparisons of life expectancy found that several Marxist–Leninist states made significant gains and commented "one thought that is bound to occur is that communism is good for poverty removal".[161] The dissolution of the Soviet Union was followed by a rapid increase in poverty,[162][163][164] crime,[165][166] corruption,[167][168] unemployment,[169] homelessness,[170][171] rates of disease[172][173][174] and income inequality,[175] along with decreases in calorie intake, life expectancy, adult literacy and income.[176]

How is communism a bad thing again? β€” Oxyaena Harass 16:07, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Serious answer: various other very real problems that the Soviet Union had. Oh man, can you imagine if the US government just grabbed random people off the street and ran them off to undisclosed locations for expressing opinions hostile to the state, though? ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 16:56, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
@Ikanreed I can't possibly imagine such a thing occurring in the US. I'm very glad it only happens in other countries and has never happened here. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:59, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Funnily enough, another similarity between Communists and Trump: They both like to use walls to prevent freedom of movement. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 17:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
You mean Marxist-Leninists, which is the my whole gripe in the first place. β€” Oxyaena Harass 18:37, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
No, I meant Communists. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 18:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Your consistency with respect to refusing to understand what people mean even after they clarify is commendable. No the other word. Contemptible. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 19:23, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Okay. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:42, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Communism has almost always been lost in the implementation phase. Just about everyone who tries it gets lost in the "complete power needed to restructure society" thing. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 17:51, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Catalonia says hello. β€” Oxyaena Harass 18:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I too like to defend Marxist-Leninist states for their track record of criminalising homosexuality, murdering hundreds of thousands sometimes millions of people for political reasons, forcing vagrants to work in labour camps, getting rid of those pesky kulaks and conducting ethnic cleansing on a genocidal scale, operating highly authoritarian military police states that kill anyone who disobeys state orders that often lead to people being starved or worked to death, and having no human rights and brutal prisons where the death rate was five thousand percent or more higher than the US prison system. Supporting this is why I'm an anarchist, communism is good actually. β€” Z 18:05, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
I too am an anarchist. β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 18:08, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Fuck off, Raven. I never defended anything, introducing nuance into a conversation does not equal it being a defense. β€” Oxyaena Harass 18:34, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
So the communist state of the USSR was good? Yes? No? Anarchist @Oxyaena β€” Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 19:32, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
Troll β€” Oxyaena Harass 04:06, 28 July 2020 (UTC)

@Raven, what do you mean by anarchist? Your page has Keynesian economics, not mutualism or anarcho-communism/syndicalism --Boredsocialist (talk) 17:24, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

He was being sarcastic at the time. You might not want to revive this dispute.-Flandres (talk) 17:26, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

@Flandres Yeah, you're right. He was being sarcastic and I shouldn't have done that. --Boredsocialist (talk) 11:22, 27 August 2020 (UTC)