Talk:Jair Bolsonaro

From RationalWiki
Jump to: navigation, search

Rates of deforestation have skyrocketed under his watch. Of course he denies it and tries to fire a highly respected Amazon researcher and monitor, Ricardo Galvão, who later harshly condemned his actions. Whoever those disgusting evil twats who voted for Bolsonaro can go get crushed by a falling log while Bolsonaro and his crew sit on a face-up running chainsaw. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄(Mod) 04:33, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

So you're essentially saying you'd be okay with the mass genocide of a group of people for their political beliefs? Maxy (talk) 05:23, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Not at all. I just wanna see every single log that falls suddenly shoot from the sky and land on their legs and Bolsonaro and his crew can live with crude, dribbling etchings of "Captain Chainsaw" on their asses. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄(Mod) 06:02, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
But I'm done with playing nice polite decorum. Tons of people are going to die. Indigenous people will have their lands destroyed. Tons of organisms are going to go extinct. Lush reservoirs of biodiveristy will turn into parking lots for cows. Climate change is going to be hugely accelerated. All because of a bunch of arrogant, vile, selfish people who think their ideology and the logging and mining industry, not even their country as they think, are above the well being of the world. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄(Mod) 06:07, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
@Maxy Said people are genociding another group of people right now as we speak, get your priorities straight. Oxyaena Harass 07:44, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I just realized that Brazil politics is screwed to begin with, between Bolsnaro and a guy in prison. And, Bolsonaro approval is plummeting, voters begin to regret what they did. I take back what I wanted from voters. I got really mad at those that continue supporting him, thought it was the same hopelessness as Trump voters, but I'm wrong and shouldn't have said that. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄(Mod) 08:05, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I'm not speaking for what he or his supporters believe or even what they have done. I'm just saying that the death penalty and wishing people death is wrong and also immature and literally hypocritical. Do you not think it adds to the problems you guys are hoping to fix on this site? As I've been lurking here for quite a while, I've noticed that RationalWiki seems to propagate a lot of hate itself, sort of an eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth mentality that you guys have against conservatives. I disagree with them too, on a massive scale (often for different reasons, but not in this case), but I think you should keep your cool and not wish them death just for what they believe, even if what they believe and have done is equally wrong. I don't want the people vouching for peace to also be vouching for the same kind of hatred, tribalism, and separation, and even death, that has been plaguing our society for millennia now. An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth is a barbaric desire that we all need to overcome. Maxy (talk) 15:11, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
Why? Seriously, why should we play by the rules if the other side won't? They'll cheat, they'll win, then they'll eventually kill us. You really need to understand, that after a certain point the rules don't matter anymore, not if want to keep your head. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:18, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
"Seriously, why should we play by the ruled if the other side won't?" "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth." Wrong, you should always play by the rules. This sets a much better example for these specific voters you're talking about. If more common people actually saw you as nice people trying to solve problems, instead of snobby elitist assholes (which you make yourselves out to be frequently), you'd be more likely to convince people of your views. Hate of human beings never helps anything. Maxy (talk) 15:48, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
"Don't fight back" blah blah blah. Look how well that turned out last time. "If more common people actually saw you as nice people trying to solve problems, instead of snobby elitist assholes (which you make yourselves out to be frequently), you'd be more likely to convince people of your views." No, they won't. You're delusional if you think the other side is going to play nice. They. Want. To. Kill. Us. All. Got that? Talking nicely with them isn't going to solve anything, it's just going to make it easier for them to off us. "Hate of human beings never helps anything." Some people are unworthy of love or tolerance. Namely the dipshits who wouldn't show one iota of it in return were they given a seat at the table. You can't reason with Fascists. They don't think the same way you do. So, I ask again. Why should we play by the rules when they won't? Why should we treat them as anything more than what they really are? Hateful, murderous, delusional, scum. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:58, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
They already aren't playing nice. We tried playing nice but the far right knows this and capitalizes this by stepping all over us, breaking our rules, and we enable them and let them continue practicing undemocratic means. In the US, we tried "going high, they go low, we setting examples", but this process allows Republicans, who operate on a different and totally unfair standard from us, which they are well aware of, to whittle away democracy with our false hope that people will realize their anti Democractic practices and then let them change the rules so they'll continue getting the upper hand. Right now, you're wasting time focusing on strong rhetoric. As on our attitudes on conservatism on the wiki, conservatives are pushing that overton window farther and farther away. Their ideology in the spectrum is whacked and they're giving rise to authoritarianism and fascism around the world. This is the time to panic. Meanwhile... People are going to die. Bolsonaro is a genocide advocate. The rainforest is reaching a point where some of the damage is going to be IRREVERSIBLE. That's the point and this calls for strong condemnation from us. This isn't a matter of being a "snobby elite" this is a matter of life and death especially for the future. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄(Mod) 17:12, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
I completely agree with you on this particular viewpoint, that what Jair is doing and supporting is absolutely terrible and needs to be stopped. But you also attacked his supporters, people who mostly probably have good intentions in believing bad ideas, as most people who believe bad ideas do. I know that Jair is being extremely hateful and I would say the same thing to him as I'm saying to you, but to you I'm saying that attacking hatred with hatred is not a valid solution. Hatred vs. hatred = more hatred vs. more hatred. The modern flame wars between the left and the right are largely due to both sides being at fault here, with both sides absolutely hating the other with a firey passion, making both sides much more radical and more prone to hanging out in echochambers (like RationalWiki itself or Conservapedia on the other end). As people become more radical and tribal, people become more prone to hating just anyone they disagree with. For instance, you might be very much against Jair and his alt-right supporters, who may (for example) so happen to believe that global warming does not exist. Then you meet someone else who does not believe in global warming (a single other person, mind you), with that being all you know about their personal beliefs, and you hate them, just as you would someone who was on the alt-right, because you associate every person who believes some quack ideology now with hateful people. What you fail to realize though is that quacks are not all bad people: many of them actually are very good people. I for instance have a family member who denies that the Earth is round or that humans have landed on the Moon, so I know from experience from being his family member that he's not a horrible person who's out to kill all the gays or something, no not all people who believe silly things are like that. You might call him "stupid" (still not a term I'd like to use for anyone, since it itself is pretty degrading to the value of a human life), but flat out hating someone just because they believe something that does not align with scientific consensus is just flat-out wrong. The flat-earther moon-landing-denier that I know is actually one of the nicest, sweetest guys I have ever met and I am not exaggerating, he wouldn't hurt a fly, yet I'm sure you would act with sincere hatred towards him simply for believing what he does. Your goal should be to educate these people, not hate them for their beliefs, or undermine their very being. By being so hateful towards actually hateful people who have some of the same opinions, though, you're not only causing those bad people to react with even more hatred, but you're psychologically causing yourself to tribally separate yourself from good people who are peaceful but don't agree with you on issues not related to violence. Maxy (talk) 20:29, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
For everyone who needs to hear this: "playing nice" vs publicly wishing ill upon everyone on the other side is a false dilemma. When doing nice things that don't work fails to deliver results, the answer isn't to do bad things that don't work. Be more politically savvy, not less. Thanks for coming to my TED Talk. 2A02:1810:4D34:DC00:408F:6637:4B09:1A2 (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
@Maxy Yeah, I said bad against those who voted for him and supported him. I went too far in condemning them and, again, shouldn't have done so. I was really angry and feeling hopeless because our world is going to get hurt, and it made me really fearful and anxious. While the supporters shouldn't get hurt, I still think they should be ashamed of what they've done. It appears that they at least shown some regret but what they damage they've done is going to go really deep and last a lifetime. I was really angry expecting them to just double-down and ignore all the problems like the current Trump supporters and I also read an article where a crowd around him was cheering him on and took it to mean it as representative of his support base. I, however, can't say the same on Bolsonaro. I don't want anyone killing him, really, because it'll be counterproductive to the cause and cause backlash and excuse for him. But I did wish harm in other indirect and over-the-top means that'll be impossible for anyone to carry through.
That being said, however, you're also making assumptions about me based on one of my posts I really didn't mean. I don't like climate change deniers, especially if they spread their ideas. It'll be difficult for me to be friends with a climate change denier since it's a passionate subject for me; same with moon landing truthers. They have a framework of thought that I'll heavily question but I will try to convince first. The backfire effect throws a huge wrench into your ideas that educating people will make them change their minds, however. It's much better to engage with someone who's on the fence and intellectually honest rather than someone who's closed off.
Additionally, while there's more division in politics, I say it's charitable to assume that both sides are equally drifting away at equal rates. It's clear to me that right-wing is getting more radicalized through politics (and I have examples: rise of the alt-right, rise in right-wing terrorist attacks, rise of far-right nationalist populist parties/politicians around the world, rise in right-wing hate crimes of racism sexism homophobia transphobia, tons of far-right media that spread falsehoods); left-wing has done similar (more left ideas being Green New Deal, mandated income, universal health care all rising to be attractive proposals in the US), but not to the same degree as the right. It's ignorant to try to either overstate what the left is doing or downplay what the right is doing to reach that conclusion. RationalWiki is in no way like Conservapedia; while both have consistent ideological slant, we don't ban people for disagreeing, we don't have draconian ban policies, we don't have draconian protection, we allow nighttime editing, we allow all usernames, we hold elections to get mods on board, we allow IP editing, our bans tend to be short, etc. to conflate RationalWiki with Conservapedia is very disingenuous.
What we should do to combat Bolsonaro, I think, is not violence but with nations cooperating to protect the rainforests and indigenous people. But enforcing and enacting these are a challenge with wannabe dictators who don't care for the rules. I think boycotting or putting heavy economic sanctions on Brazil can work, but it'll hurt citizens a lot there. I'm not sure what we can do to stop the illegal loggers and miners; Bolsonaro has stripped regulatory administrations to a skeleton crew and is starting to fire those that even mention deforestation. I'm also hoping the scandals surrounding Bolsonaro help hurt his legitimacy as ruler though this isn't active policy and I wouldn't bet on it (also I'm disappointed with the people interviewed here, not really expressing regret for his policy consequences but more of he isn't "acting statesmanlike" or "he isn't focused on security" and are expecting more from him). We also should take note of how he uses social media to his advantage and use social media to our advantage, just not sure how. I think news should stop calling climate change deniers "skeptic", news should focus on solutions to his problems rather than solicit opinion from his supporters --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄(Mod) 22:49, 11 August 2019 (UTC)
@LeftyGreenMario I’m not sure that employing general ”heavy economic sanctions” against Brazil is going to work (let alone whether setting them up is feasible). What would be more likely to work would be the sort of “targeted sanctions” that specifically hit Bolsonaro and his cronies by limiting their ability to jet around to attend world stage occasions, having their kids go to prestigious schools and universities abroad and preferably target their personal wealth and business interests. This might be accompanied by boycotting Brazil at international sporting events etc.
General economic sanctions will simply allow Bolsonary to play the “circle the nationalist wagons” game and are unlikely to affect him and his business elite pals, as opposed to the the ordinary Brazilian. Basically, draw inspiration from a combination of the sanctions against the leaders of the Ukraine separatist rebellion and the boycott of Apartheid South Africa. That would probably be more likely to generate pressure for change, both from the populace below and from within the elites. ScepticWombat (talk) 23:40, 11 August 2019 (UTC)

What about an "Olavo de Carvalho" page?[edit]

The guy is like a Brazilian Alex Jones. I think he deserves his own page. — Unsigned, by: / talk / contribs

There is currently a Draft:Olavo de Carvalho. Pages about him in English were previously deleted twice for being poorly referenced hit pieces and the same is true of a page about him in Portuguese. So make sure anything you have to say about him has strong evidence to back it up. Spud (talk) 06:29, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
He definitely would merit a page as someone with a long history of crankdom, and particularly with his new importance as an influence on Bolsonaro, but most sources seem to be in Portuguese. Nothing necessarily wrong with using foreign language sources, but it does make it harder for non-Lusophones. --Annanoon (talk) 09:33, 11 September 2019 (UTC)
  • Bom, alguns artigos em português parecem não ter sido traduzidos, e sim recriados do zero por nossos colegas brasileiros. Mas esse trabalho não ficou como todos gostariam, por isso que é importante apenas traduzir artigos para o português por enquanto.
  • Well, some articles in Portuguese do not seem to have been translated, but recreated from scratch by our Brazilian colleagues. But this work was not what everyone would like, so it is important to just translate articles into Portuguese for now.DabUnicorn.png SmalkadeContribsSandboxEC 11:10, 11 September 2019 (UTC)