Talk:Men Going Their Own Way

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My edits were NOT counter-productive

https://rationalwiki.org/w/index.php?title=Men_Going_Their_Own_Way&diff=1988767&oldid=1988766 Throughout all the time I spent making edits on Conservapedia I have never met such opposition to improving articles. I was adding worthwhile information to help explain what kinds of MGTOWS exist and you two decide to revert my edits without good reason. Reminds me of the bureaucratic jerkoffs who banned me from Wookieepedia for asking a simple question.

It also makes no sense to me why anyone in the Libertarian Left would oppose MGTOW, since some of them are essentially feminists who don't identify with the term. I see no reason why any liberal would want to oppose people refraining from being in interpersonal relationships or choosing celibacy, seeing how nobody is entitled to these people.

Interesting how some people claim that the only MGTOWS are all Incels who are single not determined by their life choices, yet in the same breath would say that nobody is an incel if they try to be likeable.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6NOPQw1FXLY Ambition of Truth (talk) 10:35, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Here in Spain, when someone says they are leaving, it takes a long time. It could easily stretch out over an hour. Standing up, chatting, putting on the jacket, chatting more while slowly walking to the door, packing up some of the leftovers into a tupperware, chatting, standing one foot out the door, chatting and then eventually they step out the door and leave. If you are really unlucky, you have a friend who never seems to leave, despite him saying "I gotta go" five times and you saying "didn't you say you had to go"? You have to keep gently hinting they should go and after running out of patience, insist they go. If you are really unlucky the guest spends most of the time obsessing over some non-problem and no matter what you say the narrative repeats on loop. Despite motivating them to look at their problem in a new direction, the narrow glasses stay on their head and restrict any side view. These are the most difficult guests to get out of your house. If things become too tedious to bear, it's time to tell them "You're a broken record...just fuck off already". Though to be honest, most Spaniards are too polite and delicate to outright say something like that.ShabiDOO 19:03, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Honestly, do we even need an article on this subject? Are we going to write articles about every group of loners who unite around something stupid online? 141.134.75.236 (talk) 19:54, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Groups of losers who get together and put together insane ideologies driven off pseudoscience and wider crankery are kind of our entire focus. Not necessarily "online", but in general, yeah, it's necessary, if they manage to make claims that people are likely to be exposed to that are crazy, we cover it. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:06, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

None of them are essentially feminists. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:06, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ambition of Truth Yeah... Speaking as someone who occasionally goes through Miggie and Incel garbage for a few grim laughs, not only are they are not Feminists, but they are outright anti-feminist in their views. These are people who on their good days hope that Feminists die, and on their bad days express a desire to torture and/or rape women in general and feminists in particular. You really need to take off the blinders on this subject. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

P.S. You seem to be conflating MGTOWs with Incels, don't. These are two subgroups of the Manosphere, not the same isolated movement. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:01, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Well, that just calls for an answer. First of all, I wasn't the one who conflated Incels with MGTOWS; Matt Forney and Paul Joseph Watson did. If you bothered to read my edit before you deleted it, you'd see that (unless you're lying).

Second, you cannot prove that absolutely none of them are feminists. If you want to prove that to me, go out and sift through all 7 billion people, find every MGTOW under the Sun, and record what their opinions are. Until you do that, what you're saying is wrong. Feminism is an ideology that supposedly supports equal rights, whereas MGTOWS are a movement about men who choose to do their own thing. Saying that because the dominant voices in the MGTOW movement make the movement as a whole bad, then radical feminists, TERFS, lesbian separatists, and the authors of college Sociology textbooks (which are blatantly misandrist) all represent the feminist movement, making feminism a sadistic evil cult fundamentally that shouldn't exist. I mentioned this in my edit

And speaking of my edit, you gave no justification for removing it. My edits explained the types of MGTOWS that exist, and which ones were the ones you may not mind and the ones that are actual male supremacists. But it's okay. You don't need to tell me why. I already know the truth.

I know that secretly, you guys don't believe that any man should be able to choose to be single. Rather propagate the big lie that Return of Kunt's Matt Forney spreads that if someone is fuckable, then they all fuck and be good little slaves to their masters. But I actually am more enlightened than the MGTOWS, because whereas they believe abusers use them in order to gain money or just fucking, I know they do it out of SADISM. Abusers have Satan fingering them whilst they torment those they trick into getting into relationships with in order to bring them into the second circle of Hell with them. And yes, some MGTOWS (such as Mayor of MGTOWN on YouTube) do this too, and should be called out. However, shaming anyone for choosing to be single or not having sex is exactly what Return of Kings has been doing for years. But why would RationalWiki users do that? Don't you guys believe that everyone should be free to choose whether they are single or not? Is that not a legitimate choice? Or have misandrist, female supremacist abusers taken over the entire website and joined the ROK asswipes in shaming their victims in hopes of getting them into abusive relationships when most judges and juries are full of white knights? I know that the sweet sounds of human suffering make them wet, and they don't want society accepting people living a schizoid lifestyle without treating them like pariahs for depriving them of their supply of victims to abuse. So the PUA's, abusers, and neocons (who never get enough wage slaves and cannon fodder) will conspire against us. Ambition of Truth (talk) 00:13, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Just fucking wow. I haven't seen this much Manosphere lingo and soundbites in one place in a very long time. What about you @Ikanreed? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 00:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I'm constantly immersed in a hell of my own making because I'm constantly exposing myself to "opposing beliefs". This stuff is not out of the ordinary for any given incel post, tbh. Especially the "Aha, I have it, I understand the sexual dynamics of the world truly, and guess what, it's that other people are evil to good and smart me".

Regardless, about your edit: there aren't types or tiers or rings of supremacy to ideologies. There aren't deeper and more fundamental insights on the path to the true truth of your ideology. You don't have levels, and you don't have any special insight that places you above your peers, no matter how strongly you believe it. The people who think you're full of shit aren't deluded morons, they've got pretty good reasons like, say... you blaming satan for the friend zone, which is, without reservation, crazy. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 01:23, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Damn Ikanreed! Back at it again with the lack of evidence of me being friendzoned! At no point did I mention rejection, but that won't stop you from blatantly strawmanning me.

You don't know anything about my personal life to know whether or not I ever bothered to date at all, or if I know what I know from bad experiences my friends had with bad, abusive, people. Of course if you did, that'd probably be evidence of a crime. I'm guessing you ARE Matt Forney because you both make the exact same arguments to a rather creepy degree. But since you're so obsessed about my motives for sympathizing with aspects of MGTOW thought, I never dated (or bothered to ask anyone out) because I sought to minimize the risk of being stuck in an abusive relationship-something that right-wingers I know personally get annoyed about. It's rather odd that you seem to have the exact same thought processes as them as well as most Return of Kings editors. I just never expected ROK to take over RationalWiki. Oh how the mighty fall. Ambition of Truth (talk) 01:42, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ikanreed You hear that? we're both the same person, and that's why we both think this guy is wacko. (And totes not because he does things like say the devil is behind the woes suffered by the Manosphere, nuh uh.) @Ambition of Truth That'd be news to ROK, they think we're overrun with evil scary radical femnazis. So get off your high horse, I've seen idiots like you dozens of times over. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 02:08, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I remember the first time I threatened to go my own way, I was maybe seven years old, my parents did something outrageous like not let me drink a glass of rain water or something so naturally I was outraged and I put my stuffed cookie monster in my little backpack and left home. It got dark quickly (yes, in my time you could walk around the neighborhood at seven years) and eventually I went back home pretending it never happened. Throughout the rest of my life I threatened to leave several more times (usually during my "that's not fair" stage as a teenager) but I always came back. When I became an adult, I parted from my family on good terms and I finally went my own way. I still remember though how free I felt when I was seven years, running away, but when I wasn't even 200 meters (yards) away from home, I realised how stupid I was being and went home. My parents were happy to have me back. ShabiDOO 06:41, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I shouldn't be so miffed that someone who believes in Satanic conspiracy theories completely misunderstood me, but I didn't say you were in the friendzone, which, btw, is not a thing: people can not want to fuck and that's not manipulation. I said you blamed its existence(to reiterate it doesn't actually exist) on literally Satan. Which I deem to be completely nutso. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 14:24, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Hey @Ikanreed, shouldn’t AoT at least get points for creativity for introducing Satan into his manospheric outlook? I mean, it’s a novel take on the subject, or what? I’m not well versed in manospheric tracts, so I might be mistaken about this being an original idea. ScepticWombat (talk) 16:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

That's actually a very interesting question. Is conspiratorial ideation a creative act, or is it more rote and mechanical? Not in some legalistic absolute sense in what it must be, but would 2 different conspiracists explaining the same pheonomena arrive at similar or different narratives in most cases?

You tend to see the same 5-6 elements reused in different shapes like a taco bell signature creation, Jews, commies, The Banks, Satan, aliens. I feel like our new friend hot-swapped jews/commies(cultural marxism) out of standard manosphere conspiracy and replaced it with the great deceiver. Is that creativity? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 16:23, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Blaming Jews and aliens would be a red herring. Communism I suppose has something to do with all this, given that the only countries that punished people for choosing to be single or not marrying and having children were Communist (as far as I'm aware of). Nicolae Ceauşescu is the most prominent example I can think of, and I've read that Poland between the 40's and 70's and the Soviet Unionhad taxes on childlessness in order to punish people for not making them more cannon fodder. I found it odd how I've seen so many white nationalists support this stuff, yet they're communist policies. I believe the most serious divide is not between left and right, but rather between libertarian and authoritarian. Ambition of Truth (talk) 20:42, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

It's positively astounding to me the way you can see that the exact same logic you invoke is absurd and a red herring when another mysterious conspiracy is at work. You might want to read our horseshoe theory article you linked, it's not exactly a resounding endorsement of it. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 21:08, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I got news for you. David Icke blathers on about aliens, not Alex Jones. In addition, citation bloody fucking needed because last I checked, White Supremacists wanted to breed like rabbits, not expand on birth control. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:31, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ This time, you've misunderstood them, GrammarCommie. They were implying a horseshoe theory bullshit where both far left and far right want massive population growth. Which is spurious and wrong, but not incorrectly describing white supremacists. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 21:35, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

@Ikanreed My bad. Though to be fair, reading through Green ink style posts does get a bit confusing. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

I tried reading the last paragraph Ambition of Truth's second post and I understood none of it. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:41, 29 August 2018 (UTC)

Section removed

The alt-right and white nationalists are sometimes dismissive of MGTOW, as the former wants increased birthrates to prevent a decline in the white population, while the latter would tank birthrates if they got their way.

Agree with the removal here since the above about MGTOW is wrong. MGTOW won't result in decline of birth/fertility rates because its strongly anti-women's rights and anti-feminism. Note that the number of years a woman has spent in education is inversely correlated with the number of children she will bear in her lifetime, so the more education a woman has - the less children she will have e.g. across Sub-Saharan Africa, women with a university education have a TFR of about 1, high school education have a TFR between 2 and 3, whereas those with no education have a TFR of 6.Tobias (talk) 17:01, 13 May 2019 (UTC)

Major edit proposal

I think we should remove the final sentence of the first paragraph:

In other words, it's a hilarious analog to the lesbian separatist movement, but without homosexuality — the LGBT rights movement is an feminist, Cultural Marxist, obstacle to male self-ownership, apparently.[4]

As I don't think it belongs in the lede and it distracts from the main point of the whole article. Instead I think we should focus on how sad and pointless the endeavour is:

In other words, it's a hilarious and terribly sad movement which leaves people, quite pointlessly, feeling alienated, bitter towards and entire gender, obsessed with non-existent "male oppression" and people self-banished to loneliness based on faulty assumptions and "problems" for which there is no reason they cannot be overcome.

Or something of the sort. ShabiDOO 12:52, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

Funspace suggestion

When anyone decides to write the Funspace 'A Day in the Life of a MGTOw-er' the character should be called Herman. Anna Livia (talk) 11:20, 24 December 2020 (UTC)

"triggered"

@LeftyGreenMario A great piece of humour that should be left in place. It so simply slaps MGTOW's with a word that they detest, while implying their motives are driven by emotion, and/or exhibit some mental illness. Please explain why "triggered" should not be used as a joke. Kauri0.o (talk) 05:40, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

While they misuse the word themselves, a state of trigger is an extremely serious condition that people keep downplaying by likening it to just being very upset. "Triggered" is not that. I suffer from triggers myself having lived through abuse. It's not a great piece of humor at all. Additionally, casting them as "exhibiting some mental illness" unnecessarily stigmatizes actual mental illnesses in the process. You don't need one to be a desperate asshole that MGTOWs are. Finally "driven by emotion" is also a common refrain to try to split between logic and emotion when the two actually influence each other a lot. Our article is also driven by emotion, generally disgust and concern. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 14:49, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

It’s a lame attempt at liberal/leftist appropriation of a stale right wing joke. Strikethrough humour is always terrible. Christopher (talk) 15:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Yes. Strikethrough humor has all the sincerity but none of the intelligence called for.Ariel31459 (talk) 19:01, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Ok fair enough. Let's collapse it with a trigger warning, so we don't hurt your fragile sensibilities. ^{Don't tell Lefty this template exists} Kauri0.o (talk) 22:20, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

@Kauri0.o I see you read nothing of the previous comments beyond the fact that they disagreed with your position. Such is conveyed by your snide passive aggressive response. So, with that out of the way I'll lay out my own opposition to the edit in question.A), it's low quality, (you literally just backronymed "MGTOW" with two words swapped out). B), similar humor is done multiple times elsewhere in the article, and is done better. And C), the article is neither improved by the edit's addition, nor harmed by its absence. Thusly, I do not believe that the edit should be reinstated. Your hostile reaction and apparent personal investment in an arguably minor line does not help sway me from my current position. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 22:30, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

I understand them and think it's a case of PC gone mad, but I yield my position since I'm clearly in the minority. You might note that I further the PC cause by revealing the location of another offensive misuse of the term. Don't get tr*ggered so easily. Kauri0.o (talk) 22:41, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Contrary to what your juvenile mind projects onto me, I am at most minutely annoyed. To be completely blunt, I'm minutely annoyed, tired from mowing the yard, and amused by an offsite conversation. I am in fact, not "triggered", nor am I "Politically correct" (Side note, if you're going to take the contrarian antagonist route, don't chicken out halfway and censor yourself, it makes you look like an idiot.) ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 22:47, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Please refrain from using the word "tr*ggered" outside of appropriate medical context or I will alert the PC police :) Kauri0.o (talk) 23:18, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

Pansy ass coward. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 23:30, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘@Kauri0.o cut your bullshit. Sometimes a joke doesn't work. There's no "PC police" here. The joke just wasn't funny. Also stop censoring shit it doesn't make you look like the master comedian you think you are. It instead makes you look like a 13 year old who just figured out that you can be mean to people on the internet. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 23:38, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

To be fair, I'm not fully fond of the reason LGM gave, sorry. "Triggered" is a horribly misused word in online discourse, particularly as it applies to "the culture wars", and it's one of those rare cases where both sides use the term pretty horribly. I doubt many people reading this article about a particular segment of "the culture wars" is going to mix the widespread social media misuse of the term with the original PTSD-oriented psychological term. So I think taking potshots at how stupid the word is used online is fair game. I care little one way or another about the strike-through joke though, to be honest, it was only added a couple years ago and doesn't really add much to the article other than increase the "playground taunt" factor. PanGalacticGargleBlaster (talk) 00:02, 6 May 2021 (UTC)

It wasn’t a great joke, but this “triggered” discourse is a laughable overreaction. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 20:42, 7 May 2021 (UTC)