Come and see the violence inherent in the system!

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“”Gentlemen, you can't fight in here! This is the War Room.

—President Merkin Muffley in Dr. Strangelove

Plutocow

This should be moved over to the main coop, but what's up with Plutocow unilaterally banning people? I agree with blocking the account, in fact I see no reason to not indef it, but I thought banning required a coop vote (which I would vote in favor of if I were eligible)? @Nutty Roux @Ace McWicked. 209.121.189.16 (talk) 00:11, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

That account is a long-term troll who only did shitty juvenile wandalism. I don't believe there ever is an issue banning long-term trolls. BobJohnson (talk) 01:06, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

I wasn't even the one who originally blocked them; that would be A somebody. I did revoke their TPA after they abused it to continue their trolling though. Plutocow (talk) 01:10, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Strikes and Repetition

For a rough guide, how many repetitions, or "strikes", of a minor offense (e.g. trolling, personal attacks, moderator threats, conflicts, etc.) is a reasonable threshold before taking things here. TheEternalOutsider (talk) 04:45, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

There isn't really a standard for that as each individual and each infraction is going to be different. It's until some user uses up all their rope and another user gets sufficiently fed up to bring a case - which might or might not be successful.

I would suggest you look at the archives to see how things have played out in the past.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 13:58, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Updating the Status Bar

Any way to do so as second counters are not present in the revision history. TheEternalOutsider (talk) 17:24, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Never mind. I see how to update the status bar now. TheEternalOutsider (talk) 17:32, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Why is the current coop even a question?

If someone posted the kind of things Luigi posted here on Wikipedia, there'd be an office action over it. Shit, (s)he would probably be denied entry into some countries if border agents knew he said some of it. If this site wants to be taken seriously, there needs to be policy put into place for immediate action in response to this kind of thing. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 22:23, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

A) we're not WP, b) we are dealing with it. The issue was only opened [as of right now] about 30 hours ago and c) if the accused did it again while we were talking about it we'd have moved straight to blocks [I think]. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:58, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I’d have hellbanned him from the site immediately if it was up to me, but I’m bound by the community standards. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 23:49, 26 September 2024 (UTC)

I mean, imagine this guy is at the USA/Canada border and the Canadian officials are probing him like they do with the question "what's the dumbest thing you've ever done?" and he answers "I advocated mass murder of people I disagree with politically," do you think they're letting him in? For that matter, imagine if a mental health counselor asked a similar question? I know it's a strawman, but still... 71.208.249.110 (talk) 00:09, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

You’re preaching to the choir with me. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 00:39, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not advocating mass murder, I said that violence against the violent might sometimes be necessary if they're currently engaging in violence. That doesn't mean I'm going to be happy about it. My poor choice of words and extreme rhetoric about admittedly-excessive violence caused the meaning of what I said to be obfuscated and taken for something worse than it actually was, but I have no choice to admit that the fault is mine for saying something that could be misinterpreted in that fashion in the first place. I'm truly sorry about the confusion and panic, and I will strive to avoid repeating this mistake going forward. Please have mercy. --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:21, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

In other words, you’re for the next civil war, and you fight fantasies about violence. Got it. Someone really ought to report this to the authorities, make sure s/he doesn’t have any access to guns. We stated out with “I have fantasies that I have no intentions of acting on” and now we’re at “I’m against violence, but we might have to do violence,” at this point I am not convinced this isn’t someone who is going to be on the news for doing something really stupid. Frankly we should discuss KP too for being half way defensive of this character. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 18:31, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

No, no, I'm against the next civil war. I'm living in dread of the prospect of it happening, and the fact that there's a real nonzero prospect of it happening, especially within this decade, is something that I'm incredibly uncomfortable with… If anything, I want to figure out what effective nonviolent solutions would look like so we can prevent a bloodbath from happening. --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:35, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

This is a site that has no way whatsoever of stopping sock puppetry if your behavior with a new account is not sus, and elections in the US are what they are. There’s no need to climb the Reischtag Building over any of this. The amount of panic, desperation, and over-reaction you are expressing is a big red flag in itself. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 18:42, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

1. I'm not condoning Luigi's words, but I'm sooo not buying the 'oh, it's all panic and overreaction' BS. Sometimes, alarm/worry/panic is in fact correct.
2. If the mob disagrees with my policies/actions/views that much, I encourage them to vote me out come November. KarmaPolice (talk) 18:50, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

For what it's worth, I'm not going to try to vote you out just because you went against my stated position in a single Coop case. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 19:11, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

You'll be high on my list in case you decide to run again. Just because I disagree with you on this one doesn't mean I don't think you did a good job as a mod. GeeJayK^{Where all evil dwells} _{Where every lie is true} 19:13, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

We're closer than you'd think on this one - my position is hardly 'outright opposition' to the motion. And yes, I intend to stand again. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:27, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I think you've done a good job as mod so far. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 19:32, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Not sure about office action. An ex-user here who’s a sockmaster on wp threatened drone strikes on multiple editors on simple wiki yet no office action other than oversight. 107.115.227.64 (talk) 20:04, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I'm not disputing that my choice of words was really awful and made me sound like a very bad person, despite the fact that my intentions were good. I do deserve some sort of punishment for hurting RationalWiki's image with my carelessness. I'm just sad as heck that it's a permaban and… it feels like everyone is treating me like Kenneth DeMyer (e.g. vermin fit only for shooing away). I've put a lot of time and energy into trying to improve RationalWiki and even bring it to a wider audience… --Luigifan18 (talk) 20:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

I am guessing you are talking about Mikey Boi because the other two fuckface Wikipedia sockmasters who were active here are office banned on WMF projects. Probably the only reason they haven't office banned Mikey is {{dftt}, since he has zero chance of returning to the site anyway. What would really put Luigi in hot water with WMF is suggesting that someone subject to Secret Service protection be gassed. You just don't do that on the internet, unless you want to be on the no-fly list. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 22:16, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

Wasn’t mikey but bravo. The user im talking about is also a dftt. 2600:387:F:D1A:0:0:0:6 (talk)

Your actions are nothing compared to ken or the user I am talking abou. 2600:387:F:D15:0:0:0:4 (talk)

It doesn't feel like people feel that way from the way I'm being dogpiled. --Luigifan18 (talk) 07:33, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Comparing a sociopath or a psychopath to trolls is unfair to trolls. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 13:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I am neither of those things. I just get very, very upset when people are wantonly harming others. That is clearly an issue that I need to work on. The goal is to protect the victims, not to demolish the perpetrators. --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:14, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Luigifan, I recommend to stop engaging. Carthage (talk) 18:35, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm on the verge of that. This BoN is clearly more interested in kicking me while I'm down than being productive. --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:37, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

No, don't be "on the verge of it." Just fucking do it! What's so hard to understand about that? Carthage (talk) 18:39, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Luigifan is perpetually "on the verge" of changing how he acts, but he never does. He is incapable of it. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 18:51, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Okay, that was another understatement/miscommunication. I meant I'm not responding to that BoN's crap anymore, since we’re clearly talking in circles around each other. And as for Moosolini… I'm already drafting a plan to change my thoughts and actions (like I said, I'm really freaking ashamed of my actions here), and I'll hammer out the kinks this Tuesday. Just watch me. --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:57, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

How many mass shooters said the same thing you're saying? The alarming part is you keep talking about "victims" and "perpetrators," dehumanizing your opponents. It's the same rhetoric that Putin and his regime are pushing to justify the Russian invasion of Ukraine, which has lead to terrible bloodshed on both sides of the fight. Most of the Russian people who support it really, truly believe that the Ukrainian government is equivalent to that of Nazi Germany. In reality, the number of people in the developed world today actively advocating anything close to the actions of Adolph Hitler's regime is quite small, and none of them have any power in a developed nation's government (even Putin isn't advocating gas chambers or a final solution for the Ukrainian question, for example, and nor is the other side proposing the reverse). Liberal academics, many of whom despise Donald Trump, have denounced the comparison of Trump to Hitler. Having autism, bi-polar disorder, ADHD... myself, and having had many discussions with therapists, your train of thought right now is dangerous. As others have said, you need to step away from RationalWiki and get help from a qualified professional. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 15:25, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

The difference between me and a mass shooter is that I understand that shooting people is wrong and I wouldn't allow myself to sink that low. You seem really freaking determined to think the worst of me. --Luigifan18 (talk) 18:33, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Everyone outside of institutionalization says "I would NEVER do something like that," otherwise they would be in an institution. How many therapists did Nick Cruz assure that he would not massacre people before he ended up doing it?[1] 71.208.249.110 (talk) 19:02, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

To be fair to Luigi, he didn't actually state that it's a good thing to murder reactionaries. He concocted a bullshit fantasy, yes, but he still went out of his way to state that's a bad thing. He's also expressed similar sentiments here:

Still, I'd like to think that there's a better way to deal with the problem of Neo-Nazism than going full frothing Dimitri and killing every last one of them. That kind of shit would make us no better than the Nazis. Like, I dunno, if we try hard and long enough, maybe we can break down the psychological defenses of at least a handful of them and get them to realize that their worldview is wrong and lashing out at minorities won't make their lives any better. (Delusion Destroyer was largely borne out of that sort of hope.)

FTR, I think trying to reach out to Nazis is a lot less productive than merely deplatforming them wherever and whenever possible, Luigifan evidently disagrees, but he still said that "I'd like to think there's a better way to deal with the problem of Neo-Nazism than go full frothing Dimitri and killing every last one of them." Also, we should probably stop paying attention to the opinions of certain BONs who have already been blocked for trolling. That's a waste of time.

Carthage (talk) 20:22, 27 September 2024 (UTC)

@Carthage Phew, at least someone seems to get me. (But the fact that you still voted to permaban me despite understanding my actual position still hurts like the fucking dickens.) Like I've been trying to say, I do not want things to go so sideways that violence becomes necessary to "fix" it. That would be terrible and regrettable on… well, on basically every level. My big point was that we at RationalWiki are and should be above the usage of violence as a "solution" to problems unless everything else has been tried and nothing else is working, or the danger to ourselves and/or the innocent is so great and imminent that it has to be removed immediately, regardless of the price or means. Neither of those conditions are true as of this writing, and I firmly believe that we should do everything in our power to keep it that way. Pragmatically, violence does sometimes have to be considered as an option, but only as a last resort. That's all I really wanted to say. The fact that I worded it the way I did in the Saloon Bar and caused a massive hullabaloo about it is… truly unfortunate, to put it mildly, and I'm so very, very sorry to have caused everyone here so much anger and distress. --Luigifan18 (talk) 14:09, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

A full-scale civil war is *extremely* unlikely to happen in the United States. A bunch of far-right yahoos occasionally committing violence, yes... it's as true today as it was at any point in my lifetime (whether it was skinhead Nazis being assholes at a punk show or Timothy McVeigh-level militia terrorism shit). The conditions just aren't right for a civil war conflict to happen compared to the 1800s, where entire state economies depended on slavery. The "economic divide" is (fuzzily) more rural versus urban, and there's a generation gap. There's certainly some online types that advocate genocide (I'm thinking Nick Fuentes and his Groypers here) but they are more edgelord keyboard warriors than anything else.

We do not need a "final solution to the Republican problem", in other words. I wouldn't even advocate a "final solution" for societies that probably are committing genocide (eg China, Myanmar, Sudan) or are skirting around the edges of such (Israel). Unfortunately sometimes a violent response is indeed necessary (this includes wars) but... your phrasing was extremely appalling. A genocide on the purported grounds of stopping a genocide is still a genocide. (It's one of the appalling things of the Israel/Palestine conflict, Hamas and some of the nastier pro-Palestine advocates have also flirted around the edges of genocide rhetoric and actions. That region is just depressing.) BobJohnson (talk) 18:44, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

A number of security experts have stated that the US is in a state of "proto-insurgency." So I wouldn't be so casually flippant. Civil war is unlikely, yes, but it's definitely not out of the realm of possibility. (There were even worries in 2017.) We definitely live in an age of political violence, and fascist militias are on the rise again: [2] [3]

Would I define this as "civil war"? That depends on your definition, I suppose. I think a Years of Lead style situation is definitely likely. Where we see political violence get more and more normalized, as our political machine continues to break down. There will be few to no large flareups of violence like we saw in Yugoslavia, just a more general background of violent extremism. I'd definitely consider that to be armed civil conflict, just low-intensity. Whether you consider that "civil war" is up to you, I guess.

Also, why do you continue to pussyfoot around the issue of Israel committing genocide? Israel isn't "skirting around the edge." It is committing genocide. You'd think nearly a year of this would have ended this charade, but apparently not. Israel can say "we're committing genocide" and people will continue to say "well, technically." I take them at their word that their end goal is long-term demographic replacement in the Palestinian territories.

Let's not pretend that Israel and Hamas are equal participants in this in any way. They're not. Let's stop pretending that this a complex issue. To quote Michael Brooks: "It’s not a complex issue. It’s super simple. There’s one group with enormous power. It acts on another population of people with total impunity and is never held accountable for anything."

"Antizionism is just another form of antisemitism" is a tired old smear. It's indisputable that Hamas would like to remove the Jewish presence from Palestine. Let's stop conflating opposition to an apartheid regime as being equivalent to support for a terrorist entity. It's just a way to shut down dissent. "But do you condemn Hamas?" What would you consider to be "final solution" rhetoric? I don't consider the popular solution: that Israel become a genuinely democratic state and abolish its status as an ethnonationalist project, as being "support for genocide." There's been no genocide of white people in South Africa after the end of apartheid. Why do you assume the same would hold for Israel. No doubt there are some people who hold such sentiments in that crowd, but you present no real data to show how popular such sentiments are. The ethnonationalist project that is Israel is not equivalent to international Jewry, and to end that ethnonationalist project and make Israel a state for all its citizens is not advocating for genocide in anyway. Carthage (talk) 19:05, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

I understand you need to explain this viewpoint in such a complex matter where no succinct opinions will really cover everything about it, but this is getting off-topic. This is lulzfan we're talking about here, after all. --It's-a me, 🎄LeftyGreenMario!🎄 19:12, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

It's snowing. Block the loser and be done with it. 71.208.249.110 (talk) 20:07, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Further evidence that Luigifan just causes chaos. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 20:48, 28 September 2024 (UTC)

Question regarding the vandalism

Given the recent vandalism this page has faced, shouldn't we temporarily bump up its protection to prevent it from being vandalized further? I know that this is something we do when articles keep getting repeatedly vandalized. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 23:00, 13 October 2024 (UTC)

I made a couple of filter changes that should limit the spammer's ability to do the same shit. Sysop-locking it would prevent the accused user from being able to comment. Plutocow (talk) 23:12, 13 October 2024 (UTC)