RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive74

Permaban

Shouldn't we just permaban the fuckwad? He certainly more than meets the criteria for at least a several month long ban, such as repeated harassment of users.--Don Juan (talk) 23:07, 5 December 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't say it's harassment, it's more of being a general unpleasant piece of work and has shown no signs of improvement. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 00:03, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

If I had to rank the quality of TDM2 as a user, I'd say he ranks slightly above your average vandal, but that's not saying a lot.--Don Juan (talk) 00:35, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

He won't be missed if he continues to try to persist in his offensiveness. We don't need poor-quality edits on non-core missional pages. It's not worth putting up with the abuse. Bongolian (talk) 01:01, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

We wouldn't lose anything by permabanning this guy, but I don't think anything he's done is quite bad enough to justify that. So I think we should just send him to the drunk tank with a three months block. DuceMoosolini^{Your friendly RW dictator moderator} 02:30, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Three months in the loo it is for him. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:55, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I vote we unblock him, and then completely and utterly ignore him (barring vandalism) for the rest of the month, just to see what happens. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 03:58, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘Wait, hold up, what's happened? RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth TheDarkMaster2 is an asshole and apparently, when someone behaves in an unprovoked and hostile manner towards other people, they don't seem to like that all that much! And now everyone apparently wants to ban him and tell him to fuck off. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 04:35, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

What has he done? Aside from being an asshole? RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:42, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@GrammarCommie @LeftyGreenMario Please explain which specific rule DarkMaster2 has violated, or I will be very strongly tempted to unblock. RoninMacbeth (talk) 04:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth I'm going to be honest, I don't know. And I didn't block him these last few times. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 04:55, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Why did he get banned again?Doublethink (talk) 05:43, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@Doublethink, TheDarkMaster2 has been engaging en repeated vulgar ad hominem attacks, bordering on harassment in my view. You can read it all here on this talk page. Bongolian (talk) 06:51, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Ok, thanksDoublethink (talk) 06:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't always adhere by rules or lack of. I go by overall upkeep of the wiki. Does keeping Dark Master unbanned benefit the wiki? What are the benefits? "Just ignore him" is not really going to work as he is just going to invite other users to respond and it doesn't resolve that we are letting him free reign as an ass. No one wants him around and I see little reason or point to keep him around and ignore him as it has less benefits than banning. He's a toxic influence and I don't like these kinds of people in this community. I like him banned. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 08:24, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘He's been warned to be civil and he's ignored the warnings. I consider that harassment. I don't think he's worth arguing about any further. Bongolian (talk) 08:34, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

TheDarkMaster2 is going to get permabanned sooner or later. He's really just a troll. Everything he says in the Saloon Bar and on talk pages is just intended to upset and anger what he sees as the typical RationalWiki user. We might as well nip this in the bud now, rather than let it go on for another six months or a year. Spud (talk) 11:53, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@Bongolian "He's been warned to be civil and he's ignored the warnings. I consider that harassment." Actually, that's not harassment. It's just being an asshole. Now, if he specifically targeted other users and attacked them unprovoked, as well as repeatedly making dishonest assertions that he later failed to correct and/or redact, now that would be harassment. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 13:57, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I'm completely onboard with banning him. He hasn't made a single contribute edit (and when he does attempt to do it, his edits are always laden with spelling and grammar error of all sorts, despite being told how to imporve, almost as if he doesn't care what he edits on there), he's far too stupid to know when he's acting like a dick, he thinks calling other users slurs is acceptable, and he posts comments only to constantly purposely provoke other users in the saloon bar. We don't gain anything from keeping him around; all he did so for was waste our time constantly, even in the vandal bin or multiple block attempts. Energy expended on dealing with him can exercised towards actually helping our mission, which is to, you know, edit articles so our website is a better place. We're not babysitters. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:13, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

We have a blocking policy for a reason, and I don't think "It's too much effort to deal with them" is (usually) a good enough reason to ban them permanently. Unless you can demonstrate that either a)DarkMaster2 has earned a block according to the policy or community standards or b)is indeed an extraordinary case (by which I mean, the very stability of the wiki is under imminent threat from this person's continued presence), I will not support blocking him. And if he is indeed accused of something, DarkMaster2 should be unblocked long enough to speak in his own defense. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:23, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I don't play this by the book. If a user has constantly proven to be troublesome, to the point where people are sick and tired of taking care of him when that's his parent's job, I say we should ban him. He's not worth having around. His talk page edits are almost on the same level as weak-sauce trolling. He has been blocked a countless number of times. We don't gain anything from keeping him around, and if a rule doesn't keep disruptive, counterproductive editors who waste our time rather than contribute to our mention, I'll exercise my own judgement void of the written rules and support a permanent ban. БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:27, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

There are times when the rules must, indeed, be considered void because emergencies demand it. This is not one of them. I do play this by the book, or at least as close to the book as possible. I don't imagine that anything we say to each other on that will change anyone's opinions. If the community votes to ban, I will, of course, abide by their will. But until then, I still support unblocking. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:33, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

You know what? Bongolian's right, changed my mind. Permaban the fucker. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:44, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth if you don't mind me asking, what caused you to change your mind? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 19:51, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

His comments seemed a bit much. I mean, the bit about son of incestuous whores thing was what really crossed the line there. I think a definite case can be made for that being harassment. Of course, if TheDarkMaster2 can justify themselves sufficiently, I will relent in my opinion. I'm still somewhat uncomfortable with a mod unilaterally delivering a 3-month ban, however. RoninMacbeth (talk) 19:57, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I told you so :V БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 19:59, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth He was copying something I wrote on my talkpage in response to a pro-GamerGate BoN. It is still unclear from his responses whether or not he was the BoN in question. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 20:04, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

(EC)Oh, but I definitely disagree with Spud's "nip it in the bud" reasoning. We cannot rely on speculation about what might happen in the future to justly deliver a ban. If the community votes to block a person, they should vote based off instances of past behavior, not based off what a person might do in the future. It is entirely possible that, if we overturn his ban, DarkMaster2 will amend his behavior and be a worthwhile contributor to the project. And if we do find ourselves relying on speculation, is it not better to assume his future innocence, rather than his future guilt? If we are to actually function as a community, we must assume good faith in scenarios where we do not know what will happen. We cannot be like Conservapedia, banning people for suspected misdeeds that have not occurred yet. To do so is to dishonor the notions of liberal justice and enlightened ideals that we claim to support. I honestly hope that DarkMaster2 will apologize and amend his ways. Every seeming bad-faith contributor who becomes a good-faith contributor is an objective benefit to the project, and to deny them that chance is to deny ourselves not only our values, but also something good. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:13, 6 December 2018 (UTC)(EC

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I still maintain that what TheDarkMaster2 did was harassment. The RationalWiki:Blocking policy states, "Harassment: Adding purely offensive material for the express purpose of causing emotional harm to others into a page." TheDarkMaster2 stated above, "You are a lying cancerous wart of a human being with not a single iota of your beloved "tolerance" if it's of a political position right of center. FUCK You you female reproductive organ. That's the PC way of saying it". When told not to speak this way as it was offensive, he continued, "Fuck you bitch. Why don't you criticize your own dam incestuous slime pit!" It's bad enough that RW has only an approximately 30% female participation, but if we tolerate this kind of language directed against women, it's going to drive more away. We can put the permaban up for a vote so that it's not unilateral. Bongolian (talk) 20:09, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

That's fair enough, and as mentioned I am inclined to agree. However, he still deserves a chance to defend himself. RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:13, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

He hasn't responded, has he LANCBED?Doublethink (talk) 20:15, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Give it a while. One, maybe two days? RoninMacbeth (talk) 20:22, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

OkDoublethink (talk) 20:24, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I support the current 3.14 month ban on the grounds of harassment, but I'm also willing to give TheDarkMaster2 a chance to state his case. Cosmikdebris (talk) 20:39, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

DarkMaster, please speak in your defense and explain why we should not ban you for harassment, if you so desire. RoninMacbeth (talk)19:49, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

DarkMaster2's Response

RoninMacbeth Uh SO here's the thing I was directly referencing His own words with the whole "son of incestuous whores" I was using his own words against him you moron.So if you're gonna ban me permenantly then you b etter do the same for the person who did it first hypocrite I'm trying to stop talking on the darn talk page cause that seems to get me in trouble.And focus on my paleontology articles (Also the fact that I can't delete shit of my own darn talk page is annoying)But everytime I try to make an article you guys fuck with. So I fuck back and somehow I'm the bad guy? No wayTheDarkMaster2 (talk) 13:56, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

But what about when you said if the best argument you have is misrepresenting what I said then you might as well delete this topic. You are a lying cancerous wart of a human being with not a single iota of your beloved "tolerance" if it's of a political position right of center. FUCK You you female reproductive organ. That's the PC way of saying it). And the other times you made similar comments on this and other pages? If you were somehow not permabanned here, what's to say your activity would not just feature an extended flame war punctuated with some articles on prehistory? Basically to defuse the flame war something needs to be done, if you catch my drift. — Dysk (contribs) 14:26, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I just want it off my talk page. I hate liars. TheDarkMaster2 (talk) 14:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Once this is over I will archive this page, but I think the current discussion is revolving around the flame war. I mean yes pretty much everyone on this wiki loves bickering and swearing but you do understand we can't have too much disruption, right? Also you need to work on your quoting style, when you quote comments by other fuckers you need to make it clear it's a quote, as I did by wikilinking your comment to a diff (on Wikipedia a template is used to make the text green). Just saying, formatting is important. — Dysk (contribs) 14:41, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Using 'words that you know will annoy people' as blunt weapons (rather than creatively) tends to get a disproportionate and greater response. Ditto calling people morons, liars, and other negative terms. Double ditto poor use of spacing, spelling and punctuation.

And, in response to your reply - I have read enough fanfic to suggest that you be more creative. Anna Livia (talk) 15:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Fanfic? TheDarkMaster2 (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Ah, I see. Sorry, it wasn't clear that you were quoting him. I apologise for the mistake. RoninMacbeth (talk) 16:01, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth I mean I did point that fact out earlier... ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 16:09, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

To clarify I am not the 'you' in RM's comment :) Anna Livia (talk) 16:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Ye you seem perfectly willing to make that mistake then hang me if I do the same. TheDarkMaster2 (talk) 20:10, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Hey DarkMaster, we're contemplating banning you permanently. Maybe it's not a great idea to continue lobbing insults at other users who are considering that to reprimand your actions, just a thought here? БaбyЛuigiOнФire🚓^(T|C) 20:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I vote we permaban the fucker, his responses haven't done anything to dispel me of that notion.--Don Juan (talk) 21:13, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Ban evasion, denial of ban evasion, unpleasantness, given FAR too many opportunities to improve, has exhausted benefit of doubt a long time ago, a major disruption. I say go ahead, ban this person, forget about this person, and if the person tries re-regging, ban on sight. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 21:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I vote ban for repeated ban evasion mostly. Doublethink (talk) 21:42, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

First off, what ban evasion? Second, should it be considered ban evasion when the legitimacy of the initial ban (assuming the initial ban was LGM blocking the DarkMaster2) is in question. RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:18, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@RoninMacbeth They're referring to the edits made by this BoN, which I have repeatedly pointed out they cannot be sure of. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 22:28, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I never evaded block, Lefty Green Mario has always had it out for me because I'm right of center. TheDarkMaster2 (talk) 22:26, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

@GrammarCommie No I am referencing Autoblock #98637 it's on the block land. Doublethink (talk) 22:33, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Again, I am not sure we can enforce ban evasion on a ban that is, at best, mildly controversial. You know what? If you want to block him, bring this to the coop, where we can actually come to a decision on this. RoninMacbeth (talk) 22:55, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea who that person is. TheDarkMaster2 (talk) 23:20, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Really the autoblock said it was your IP? Doublethink (talk) 23:31, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Maybe it was Timmy! Cosmikdebris (talk) 23:54, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Are we planning on coming to a consensus? Doublethink (talk) 01:21, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Dunno, my opinion is more nuanced now. I think the Vandal Brake is a good place for him, he won't be blocked per se, but he'll be limited to only making one edit every half an hour.--Don Juan (talk) 01:35, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

I agree, a π x infinity is a little extreme. Doublethink (talk) 02:53, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

DonJuan's Proposal

Shouldn't we just permaban the fuckwad?

Yes

1. His pathetic attempts at creating articles aside, he's been nothing but a troll since he came here. He's not going to get any better. He's had enough chances.Get rid of him. Spud
2. Enough is enough. We have wasted far too much time trying to be nice and fair to this user. He has shown no signs of improvement. I see little reason to continue debating about fairness and respect when this user does not deserve an inch of respect to anyone and we keep giving him this. Let's get something done, this guy is wasting way too much time, energy, and attention. Keeping this user is not good for the upkeep of this wiki, as this user has nearly universal negative contributions. Long-term ban is minimum provision I will agree to. Assume good faith, yes, but don't let people like him take advantage either. He will not amend or apologize, not in a short amount of time, nor has he even acknowledged his own problems, and he has made no effort to apologize or show any regret for using derogatory language (he even doesn't acknowledge the impact of words). I am not letting him continue being a negative influence in this wiki on the whim that one day, he won't. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 06:56, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   @LeftyGreenMario Actually, that isn't quite true. TDM2 has indeed acknowledged his own words are harmful, he just doesn't give a fuck and continues to use them in a deliberately contrarian manner regardless. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 13:04, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   I mean in other words, he doesn't acknowledge their impact beyond empty statements. His actions tell me more than his words about the lack of acknowledgement. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:50, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   Si, Senors y Senoras.--Don Juan (talk) 14:05, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

3. Don't let unpleasant characters ruin our project. Nerd (talk) 14:29, 8 December 2018 (UTC)
4. This user has exhausted my patience. DuceMoosolini^{Your friendly RW dictator moderator} 17:21, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

No

1. I propose we simply enable filter 18 and then relax. If TDM starts swearing he will automatically spend 3.6 days blocked. If he doesn't, then great! — Dysk (contribs) 11:03, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   Also I really want to try out filter 18. — Dysk (contribs) 11:08, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   There's also the problem of the incredibly low quality edits he makes to non-core missional articles.--Don Juan (talk) 14:10, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   @Dysklyver I'm sure there will be another opportunity for you to test Weapon X Filter 18. Nerd (talk) 14:30, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   Yeah probably best not to use him as a test subject, ban away. — Dysk (contribs) 19:18, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

TheDarkMaster2 should be taken out back and smacked in the face with a large trout

1. Smack him with a moderate ban for calling people cunts and pricks without justification. Warn him that further behavior will result in further bans. Hey, try to be civil. Cosmikdebris (talk) 03:12, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

   We already tried this. He used up those chances and continued to call people those names, using different words but with same intent. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 06:44, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

The Moosolini Corollary

If we're gonna ban him, we should also take away his talkpage access. This only makes sense considering the reasons why we're doing this in the first place. DuceMoosolini^{Your friendly RW dictator moderator} 20:09, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Done.--Don Juan (talk) 21:07, 8 December 2018 (UTC)

Consensus

The mob has reached a preliminary consensus, permaban the fuckwad. Done.--Don Juan (talk) 19:21, 8 December 2018 (UTC)