You cited a section you deemed problematic? How so? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:15, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- Dear @LeftyGreenMario I'll be more than happy to reply once I'm off my bike, since it obviously deserves a thoughtful response. Which probably means only tomorrow, because it's been 75km so far and very little glycogen is being pumped into my brain atm, sorry :D I'm aware of your good service as a fair and mature mod, and I hope you don't think this is gratuitous aggravation on my part. A great afternoon/evening to you! UninspiringNickname (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- To be honest, I was surprised you deemed the discussion there more problematic than the attacks Ace made. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:49, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- I apologize for meddling in this discussion, but do we really need to bring this to another page? GeeJayK (talk) 20:53, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- Whichever you folks decide is fine by me. 80km now and I'm sorely regretting this ride :| Edit: formatting. UninspiringNickname (talk) 20:58, 16 March 2021 (UTC)
- @LeftyGreenMario, sorry for the belated (and wordy!) response once again.
- I run an informal, recreational events only LGBT group. Last year a woman tried to join, claimed she was asexual, and suggested, in a bit of a forceful manner, we make "asexuality" more of a focus for our group, since there's no mention of asexuality in our "mission statement". I banhammered her immediately, and sent harsh words her way.
- We're not a support group, we just do fun things. We don't accept non-LGBT people, NO exceptions, because not only we don't want for LGBT-phobes to infiltrate us, but also because when we do talk about our personal lives, we want to feel at ease, surrounded by other people who've had the same experiences, and who will understand what we're saying because, well, they've been through it too. Even if it weren't a discriminated population, we can organise groups in any way we see fit - people are well within their rights if they want to start a 60+ year-old ginger bikers' group.
- Every one of us deals with non-LGBT people everyday, we obviously don't think they're all evil incarnate (which would be unfair and silly), we just want to have a little space of our own every once in a while. I've kicked out many cis straight men who "feel they bond well with lesbians", cis straight women who just want to pursue their f*ghagging, and others who want us to be their, for the lack of a better description, personal zoo. You want to tick off of your bucket list the experience of meeting gays, d*kes and tr*nnies in their natural environs, like some sociological David Attenborough? Not going to happen, sorry. I'm not keen on rewarding anyone's morbid curiosity, and even less in allowing for something that would kill a group that's taken years to build, very, very quickly.
- I also think that, beside the fact we share no communality in the way of lived experiences, LGBT people are still a very heavily stigmatised group - many countries outlaw simply being LGBT, some even sentence us to death for the crime of existing. Being LGBT is actually demonised by the media, organised religion, and the whole of society. Being asexual is NOT. Yes, I've read a few "studies" and personal accounts claiming otherwise, and I've lost neurons while doing so. We don't have the duty to provide a far less disprivileged population (if disprivileged at all) with resources that are not enough to meet our own needs, and we should not be subservient to them. That would be actual LGBT-phobia on our part.
- From your edits to the asexual "exclusionism" page, and its talk page, I would think you think that LGBT people, organisations and activism should service asexual men and women, and that we're being exclusionary if we don't. In my case, I'd be a horrible human being. Is that a fair representation of your position?
- I'm sorry if this strikes you as a bit aggressive, it's certainly worded more forcefully than I normally would. I had (another) experience over the weekend that I'd rather not recount, but that has kindled my indignation at people who think LGBTs are privileged oppressors. Not over here, we're not, and, I think, almost not anywhere, really.
- Edited for spelling. I'm not sure if you're allowed to edit comments, so please feel free to revert and smack me with a cabbage for doing so. UninspiringNickname (talk) 01:42, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @LeftyGreenMario while the article is still an ahistorical and illogical mess, I do credit you for at least trying to distance "acephobia" from transphobia, even if for all the wrong reasons. UninspiringNickname (talk) 01:49, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- What do you think the A in LGBTQIA+ stands for? — Oxyaena Harass 01:52, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, Oxyaena, I'm addressing Lefty Green Mario, not you. I remember being willing to talk to you (strangely in private, as you proposed) about post-colonialist feminism a few months ago. I was genuinely interested in your views. Since then, I've found out about your many claims about yourself, some patently untrue, some statistically very unlikely. Also, about your abuse of an alternate version of checkuser, your tech status, your constant LANCBs, and your general hostility. I don't feel like being lectured about LGBT or feminist issues, with which I've been involved since before you were born. What you've done is very much the only thing that gets my blood boiling, and I have zero interest with interacting with you at this point. If it needs to happen, of course I will be civil. I'll neither use, nor tolerate, 4 letter words. Feel free to either coop me or propose an interaction ban with me if you see fit. UninspiringNickname (talk) 02:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- I came in expecting a polite discussion and was open to hearing a different take on asexual exclusionism but I finished up getting angrier and hurt the more I read your post. I am mostly hurt. The harshly worded rejection you've done as well as banhammer to an ace person, as well as your wording heavily implying questioning their orientation (a person "claiming" they are ace) are all wholly inappropriate responses, wildy overreacting. That was not a nice gesture at all.
- What is also hurtful is your conflation with asexual people with the majority cishet population and the comparison of them to cishet people joining a group for less than legitimate reasons, which isn't even comparable and shouldn't have been brought up to make your point. This is also with your arbitrary cut-off for ace people. The only possible consistent reasoning for cutting off ace people is simply because there are no laws criminalizing ace people (bisexuals are not targeted either). I don't think being part of the LGBT community is about being oppressed, that breeds division and becomes a matter of "survivor qualifications". What I believe the LGBT+ community should revolve around is to serve as a safe space for people, celebrate diversity, have fun, listen to others, learn from others, not be whoever is most threatened by laws and other people. The trans experience is different from being bi which are different from being lesbian which are different from gay, different from pan, different from intersex, and furthermore unique from race, sex, socioeconomic circumstances, networks, culture. To say LGBT people all share experiences while leaving out those factors that make experiences also have a flavor, this makes leaving out ace people, who can enrich the community with their experiences, whcih are unique and also most definitely share certain themes with others in the LGBT community even more baffling.
- What I have seen here, on top of engaging in harmful gatekeeping, is also seeing ace people belittled. Studies are in air quotes. Their experiences are written off as "damaging neurons". Some experiences including corrective rape. That's something to be mocked because at least laws don't criminalize asexual people. I'd call it out, but what else can I say. I'm tired. I'm still in pain, but it's all numb. There's a lingering feeling something is wrong with you. You're broken. You're a robot. You don't really love others. You're an incel hiding behind a fake orientation. Sex ed gives you expectation that you'll be sexually attracted but that never comes. You're not like the other girls. It's all made up. Will the LGBTQIA label be LGBTQIABCDEFGHIJKMNOPRSUVWXYZ123. Those kinds of internalizations, even if they're not slurs, take a toll on someone and then get reinforced when you want others you believe can offer comfort and fun in spite of the intense, lingering emotional pain, reject you for not being hurt enough.
- And your message ends on a loaded scenario that insinuates condemning a fraction of community for harming asexuals for gatekeeping is equivalent to calling them an awful person. Ace people don't consider them oppressors. They just want to be understood, validated, have their experiences shared. They just want you to reevaluate what people like you are doing and try to get you to change your mind.
- If you have a problem with asexuals bringing up the very real harms and general toxicity of gatekeeping that undermines core of the ideals of the LGBT+ community, especially when you compare those concerns infavorably to the extremely ugly remarks made to a trans person in the coop to start this discussion, if you feel threatened by those that, at their core, are hurt, scared, alone, and rejected by those they tried to view as potentially helpful and even trusting figures, who also felt feelings of hurt, fear, vulnerability, and loneliness, to listen to them, then your views and the goals of your involvement in the LGBT+ need serious reevaluation. If this group you protect is so fragile that aces wanting to feel belonged and validated dismantles the group identity, it wasn't a strong identity to begin with. But it's not fragile. The community is tough after decades of fighting and weathering bigotry and hate. But are they soft and gentle enough for others that have been been sidelined and want support or even just a sense of belonging. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 10:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry you're disappointed. I am too, I guess. I don't think it's fair to say I wasn't polite, especially when facing the expectation of you calling the whole population to which I belong oppressors and bigots, which you just did.
- I had no idea if she was asexual, not just because saying something on the internet about yourself doesn't necessarily mean it's true, but also because she actually wrote this: "I'm asexual. I don't have a gender preference, but lean towards men". I'm not even going to address how you can be asexual and have sex every day, all day, as it seems you can, because the word has become meaningless.
- And no, I don't have the obligation to let anyone in the group that doesn't match its intended audience, no matter how much they want to. I pay for hosting and spend hours arranging events. I am not obliged to radically change the group because one woman felt she could command me. Neither I nor anyone else in the group should be made uncomfortable by someone in whose presence we wouldn't be able to talk freely about ourselves. It's hard enough already to break the ice and make regulars out of first-timers when we do have something in common. If I were to start letting non-LGBTs participate, first people would be surprised, some would question me, and eventually group attendance would be reduced to zero. Very solid, very hard NO. I'll also wholly dismiss your opinion about a group you've never met and never will, if you don't mind.
- I call them "studies" because that's what they are, from all I've seen. Diminutive and unrepresentative sample sizes, leading questions, no validation of personal reports, etc. is all I've seen so far. Yes, women get raped, regardless of sexual orientation. Where are the validated reports and news of anti-asexual hate crimes? I'll still be interested in reading them, if you know of any.
- "I don't think being part of the LGBT community is about being oppressed". Well, you should try being LGBT someday. Am I being ironic? Yes. Do you deserve it? Yes. And also please pick one line of argumentation. You're either oppressed and it counts, or you're not and it doesn't.
- "there are no laws criminalizing ace people (bisexuals are not targeted either)". You're wrong. And biphobic.
- "I'm tired. I'm still in pain, but it's all numb. There's a lingering feeling something is wrong with you. You're broken." I'm sorry you feel this way. It's not the fault of LGBT people, though. And it's not a simple difference of degree in how much personal pain you feel, it's a completely different issue on all levels. Tell me about your feelings of brokenness, I'll show you scars and police reports. And your personal pain is no excuse to further vilify us if we aren't willing to service you at our own cost. If we are so evil, we do you even want our company anyway?
- "then your views and the goals of your involvement in the LGBT+ need serious reevaluation." Being actually LGBT and someone who has spent years of her life engaged in community building, I'll take your irrelevant advice and, once again, fully ignore it
- Your issue is more serious than that of Ace, who addressed just one person - who has made untrue and unlikely remarks about herself. You targeted a whole population. I'm sorry my general tone is less friendly now, but this is one of the few things that has this effect. You're free to dismiss me too, but please do better next time. UninspiringNickname (talk) 16:22, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- In fairness, an Ace can still have sex and even enjoy it, and will often do so in relationships on behalf of their partners, but they just have no desire for sex. Cortex (talk) 16:35, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- What a load of utter arbitrary shit, no different from "LGB" groups, wherein an arbitrary line is drawn and treated a sacred and immutable. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 16:57, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @GrammarCommie Yes, it's arbitrary that I get hostile stares, sexual harassment and threats of physical violence every time I walk down the street holding a girl's hand. Arbitrary that two of my friends, a gay male couple, were piled on by a passing group of hooligans who broke bottles on their heads and sent them to the hospital. Arbitrary that the police giggled when I went to the precinct with them to file charges. It was also arbitrary that the local equivalent of a DA dismissed the case even though there were several witnesses. It was an arbitrary fight, the DA wrote, not motivated by homophobia. Also arbitrary that there are countries I'd be sentenced to death just by entering their soil. The "lesbian pride" tat doesn't leave a lot to the imagination.
- These are all arbitrary things that needn't happen. But they do, over and over again. UninspiringNickname (talk) 17:25, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @CorruptUser Well, I've never had sex with anyone I didn't desire (or at a moment I really didn't want sex), and I don't think I actually could go through the motions. I'd be mortified if any of my partners told me they didn't desire me or sex, but were doing it just for me - it might not even be necessary for them to say it, I think I'd probably realise on my own. I'd feel like a bit of an... abuser? in some way. I would probably leave the house, get very drunk and try to fight the desire to bash my head against a solid surface. But I'm more than willing to listen to what you have to say. UninspiringNickname (talk) 17:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @CorruptUser I'm sorry, I just realised the way my last comment was worded can sound dismissive. Sometimes it's hard to convey your actual intent over text. Except if you abuse emoticons, I guess, I've used them a couple of times here but seem to be the only one doing that and
I don’t want to be the weirdo. I really am interested, and was passing no negative judgement on what you said. UninspiringNickname (talk) 17:50, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- No worries. Just clarifying that Ace doesn't mean "no sex ever", so it's possible the woman really was Ace in spite of the sex. Cortex (talk) 17:53, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @CorruptUser I can understand that happening when you're younger and more vulnerable to the pressure of people around you. I cannae get my mediterranean skull around that if you're a grown woman, as she was. I mean, I could call myself asexual towards men if that makes sense, and despite all the societal pressure and homophobia, I've not so much as kissed a man (nothing against men, they're fine, but just not my thing). So... what does it all mean? I'm befuddled and confused \o/ UninspiringNickname (talk) 18:09, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- Also, just to clarify: people who have no sex are fine. People who have some sex are fine. People who have physically impossible amounts of sex are fine (though, unlike as is commonly believed, the amount of calories expended even on prolonged... er, sessions... is actually very modest. Someone has tracked that by using a fitness band throughout the activity, but it definitely wasn't me, just read it off the Internet. In any event, having a low resting BPM helps.) UninspiringNickname (talk) 18:17, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- Yeah, that isn't what I said. Maybe you should get reading lessons. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:39, 23 March 2021 (UTC)
- @GrammarCommie I think I did understand, maybe my reply was too subtle, though. UninspiringNickname (talk) 09:12, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
- Your reply was neither subtle, nor did it indicate basic reading comprehension. You're basically the same as a gay person who says Trans people can't be LGBT because "transgenderism isn't a sexuality". You're a bigot, basically, and no amount apologetic mewling or screaming about your own pain will change that. If it's a price in blood that makes one LGBT, maybe I should start linking to articles about women being "correctively" raped because they were Ace. But I doubt that'd make you change your mind, because for someone like you, nothing will change your mind. For you, your opinion, wrong though it may be, is immutable, and no amount of evidence, no argument, no fucking blood price will change that. And to be honest, bigots from marginalized groups disgust me more than regular bigots, since they're just taking the same shit that the fucking mainstream bigots threw at them and turning around to find someone else just jam a jackboot on the throat of. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:56, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
- TL;DR You're a bigot and fuck you. Sincerely a bi-curious ace dude. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 15:58, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
- I'm sorry, but coming to my talk page with personal insults, swearing and lgbt-phobia will get you no reply. Be well. UninspiringNickname (talk) 16:11, 24 March 2021 (UTC)
GC, you need to stop taking what people say on the internet so seriously. Christopher (talk) 16:30, 24 March 2021 (UTC)