RationalWiki:Chicken coop/Archive105

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TheLeftIsIrrational[edit]

This TheLeftIsIrrational dude is clearly a transphobic concern troll, who judging by his username, never intended to make useful contributions, and judging by his contributions history, hasn't made any useful contributions. Suggest blocking him forever leaving only talk page access, or perhaps just banning and this site can do something more constructive than arguing with him. — Dysk (contribs) 21:51, 15 July 2020 (UTC)

Given that they're largely relegated to their talk page, I would say that nobody here has to argue with them. Some users simply choose to do so.-Hastur! (talk) 21:53, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Sure and when they stop, he makes fucking stupid edits somewhere to provoke the wiki into talking to him again. I'm aware that someone could unilaterally restrict him to his talk page, that ain't recommended per community standards hence this coop case to make it formal. — Dysk (contribs) 21:57, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Is this even worth cooping? TheLeftIsIrrational isn't even autopatrolled. Just block the guy if it warrants it. Bongolian (talk) 22:50, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
For me, honestly, just block them for three days to two weeks, whatever. If it expires, the user is being annoying again, just block for another few days. Whatever. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 22:59, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
He's a boring dope who thinks he's clever and funny but is really just sorrowful because anyone who gets what little enjoyment they have in life trying to rile people up, being a cosmic dick and contributing nothing useful to anything, is a maladjusted socially-vacant sad-case. As the crats said, just block. Temporary shit-heads just passing by don't merrit coop cases. ShabiDOO 23:01, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah also sure, you can ban em. I don't care what happens. I think just making this user get so frustrated they leave is ideal over an indef ban. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 23:03, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Ban. Not worth anything else. Obviously not here to do anything productive. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 23:19, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
While they are transphobic, judging by their prejudices, I haven't seen them do anything banworthy thus far. Thusly, I think the vandal bin is the all that seems to be needed to curb whatever ill behavior they might have. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 23:33, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes. I would rather just apply a graduated series of blocks. I don't presume he will get better. Personally, I don't mind being challenged by such people. I'm not that busy. I'm sure GC can handle him.Ariel31459 (talk) 23:40, 15 July 2020 (UTC)
He's annoying as Hell. But being annoying is not against the rules. I wouldn't mind someone giving him a short block every time he becomes a nuisance, but permabanning someone who hasn't broken any rules beyond the "don't be a dick" one seems excessive. Anyway, he can't be much of a problem from the bin. And if you wish to give him a short block for whatever reason, I'd be okay with preventing him from editing his talk page during that block, though community standards may disagree".Coigreach (talk) 00:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
This user has technically violated community standards for disparaging trans people that aren't suffering from gender dysphoria. i.e. being truscum which I don't think should be tolerated or be at least given good faith, since that debate on trans people's existences shouldn't be taking place here. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 03:33, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────End the coop and give the guy a 3-day block. Bongolian (talk) 03:36, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Permaban the idiot. Oxyaena Harass 08:02, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I have to agree with Oxy here. This person just wants to provoke some people over here (Passive-agressive reactions, acting like someone who posts on Reddit (r/The_Donald to be more precise), questionable username...). Giving him a 3 day ban isn't going to do anything (he might even think that we're "reeeing" over his actions..). These people just exist to cause shitstorms on wiki's and/or forums, because their lives are either pathetic or because they're morons (ED & 8chan types)... Gunther1987 (talk) 09:14, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Based on their username, they don't seem to have come to argue in good faith. However, we should consider that sometimes people react differently when they are ganged upon. As far as I know, being a jerk isn't precedent for indef ban anyway (only for serious cases of harassment, threats of violence, etc.). Have a vote on it, but I would say give them a 3 day block or so. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 08:05, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Not a fucking permabam. Come on Oxy - that‘s the sort of shit got you in trouble in the first place. 3.6 days is fine then if they come back and do the same increase it to 3 weeks. AceModerator 09:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I'd say 3 weeks. They already have received a couple of blocks in the past mostly delegated to 3 hours and 3 days (and a few coop related blocks which don't worry, I'm not counting those). Going up to 3 weeks seems like a logical escalation from there. We can escalate to 3 months if this expires and the user stays around to dunk up the place (and after that we can consider a perma). Basically, a serial escalation until they either change their tune or get bored and leave (former is highly unlikely, latter is possible and otherwise we just shove them out of the door). I also would just politely advice everyone to not give this guy sysop or autopatrolled. (Also, the reason why I'm supporting escalation here where in the past I've moved to perma: This user is mostly just arguing on talkpages and isn't trying to SEO boost conservapedia). Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 10:07, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I’m just really not behind “Guys a dick, permaban!” - escalating bans. Permabans usually involve community input. AceModerator 10:11, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
He violated community standards by invoking transphobia. That warrants a ban by itself. Oxyaena Harass 10:32, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
And he got banned. What else you got? AceModerator 10:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Transphobia[edit]

Rough storm pirate.png Ahoy, matey!
Beware, for there be a great sea of
Concern Troll Bullshit ahead!

I would like to see examples of transphobia. If the guy is being transphobic, I would suggest harsher punishment. I haven't seen them (and I hope the people accusing him bring some evidence forward). — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 14:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

oh he's definitely transphobic, take a look this:

I fail to see how transmedicalism is "inherently" transphobic. What aspects are being rejected? The aspects that don't experience gender dysphoria and have zero interest in transitioning? Great, then it rejects non-trans people. The trans community isn't harmed in the slightest. Not transphobia.

source

Non-binary people aren't trans, and people who don't have dysphoria aren't trans either. That's not transphobic.

...

Except it's not. Being trans isn't a choice. It's a result of dysphoria, and you have to have dysphoria to be trans. There's a danger in that line of thought because kids are increasingly transitioning and detransitioning because they are realizing that they're not actually trans. There is a medical requirement for people to transition for a good reason.

source

There is more particularly on Talk:Blaire White but I think these are fairly clear examples. — Z 14:30, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

I don't know about conflating transmedicalism and transphobia. Is this person advocating for discrimination of some sort? Have they been using abusive language? These would be clearer, more universally accepted examples of transphobia, I'd say-Hastur! (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Transmedicalism - just going to leave this here. — Z 15:49, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Maybe I wasn't reading it very carefully but that article isn't particularly damning-Hastur! (talk) 16:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Just like other forms of discrimination and prejudice, there are degrees to it. If you take racism as an example, you have KKK tier racism and then you have people with unconscious biases about black people that impact black people getting employed despite the "lightly" racist person denying their own racism. I would say the same applies to transphobia. There is "kill the t-words" tier transphobia and there is transmedicalism. Some trans people are not able to transition (whether financially, medically, psychologically, etc.). Transmedicalism in essence is gatekeeping trans people that don't want/can't transition, and I would say it is relatively mildly transphobic. That being said, in regards to this user, we have to measure if the user is willing to change their perspectives on the issue and whether further engagements with them makes sense. If they are willing to engage civilly and learn, I suggest a 3 day block so that they and the community can cool down. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 16:26, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Transmedicalism seems more like a difference in perspective than anything else. Before anybody jumps down my throat, I wouldn't consider myself a transmedicalist as much of what we call gender is pretty arbitrary; I hold the view that if somebody wants to identify as something other than what they were assigned at birth, that's fine by me. But calling transmedicalist transphobic for believing that gender dysphoria is at the core of being trans seems a little silly. They just have their own definition of trans.-Hastur! (talk) 17:00, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
It is not. It is denying trans people their identity because they aren't suffering. Gender dysphoria is a specific mental health disorder on the same vein as anxiety disorder and OCD in which to be classified as having a disorder (applies to any disorder), it has to negatively impact your life. Gender dysphoria is a painful experience and what transmedicalists want to do is pathologize being trans and try to make gender dysphoria and being trans probably interchangeable. They want to erase the idea that there are trans people who do not suffer from dysphoria, and transmedicalists have invented a derogatory label, "transtrender" for trans people that do not transition or otherwise aren't suffering. That kind of belief is horribly damaging to these trans people. It is not "a difference in perspective". --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 17:29, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
"Horribly damaging?" That's going to require some elaboration-Hastur! (talk) 18:05, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Yes. It is a fairly bald claim. Ariel31459 (talk) 18:06, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────
A fairly bald claim.
Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 18:23, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
That entire paragraph goes into why it's damaging. Again, it's pathologzing someone's identity and pretty much saying, "you have to be miserable to be trans". Is the label "transtrender" which sums ups transmedicalist belief, not derogatory and damaging? --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 18:22, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Should I start bringing out the 1 to 1 overlap between the transmedicalist arguments and TERFs like Cathy Brennon? Because our friend "TheLeftIsIrrational" used some of Brennon's material. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:26, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Who's that? Gunther1987 (talk) 18:35, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
The arguments themselves should suffice.Ariel31459 (talk) 18:36, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@Gunther1987 A notorious TERF, lesbian feminist, and harasser. She actually harassed a former member of this site at one point. @Ariel31459 If you're asking me to start quoting I may need a few hours to proofread everything. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 18:44, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
GC: No. I just wanted to see arguments of a general sort. Something a bit more substantial than the talking points. The TERFS, who make claims about certain rights, seem quite different from transmedicalists, who don't make claims about rights (is this correct?).Ariel31459 (talk) 18:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I don't know who Cathy Brennon is either. I'm not sure what makes anything I said "trans-exclusionary". A majority of the trans people I know on social media, as I myself am a part of the community, all pretty much agree that you need dysphoria to be trans. It's not trans-exclusionary to say such. I do have to ask if @GrammarCommie and @LeftyGreenMario are trans and are coming into this conversation from the perspective and with the experience in the subject of a trans person. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 19:01, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I am part of the trans community and you are wrong. It is exclusionary because it rejects gender- and identity- self-definition and autonomy. nya. I am from the UK and I can testify that transmedicalist/truscum beliefs are extremely harmful and lead to trans people hating themselves along with extremely toxic gatekeeping both medically and in the community at large, both of which I have been extensively affected by on a personal level. ⏣sapient_cogbag⏣ [all-lowercase name pls] talk 19:47, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I would like to discuss this with you. You being a transgender person makes your viewpoint much more valuable to me than cis people trying to prove something about me that they simply cannot. I don't live in the UK, and I would like to hear about your experience, but only if you feel comfortable sharing it. :) TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 01:48, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
@Ariel31459 Yes and no. There's overlap in beliefs and rhetoric. For example, our friend at one point argued that Blair white was correct in saying "...people with penises should not be in public women's changing rooms, people with vaginas shouldn't be in public men's changing rooms..." This talking point originates with Brennon. "The proliferation of legislation designed to protect 'gender identity' and 'gender expression' undermines legal protections for females vis-a-vis sex segregated spaces, such as female-only clubs, public restrooms, public showers, and other spaces designated as 'female only.' Females require sex-segregated facilities for number of reasons, chief among them the documented frequency of male sexual violence against females and the uniquely female consequence of unwanted impregnation resulting from this relatively common form of violence." It's not even adapted, but instead a pure TERF talking point. Now, if these two groups use such a high level of overlap in rhetoric and belief, is there really a distinction between them? Well yes actually. The difference is quite simple. TERFs reject all trans people as valid, wheres as Transmedicalists accept only some trans people as valid. Though, and here's the kicker, one could point out that the Transmedicalist point of view is basically the same as the TERF's, but with a trans equivalent of (forgive me for skirting Godwin's law here, but it is relevant) Juntenrats. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 19:28, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I've asked trans people for guidance on the beliefs of transmedicalism. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
That's actually not what I was arguing at all @GrammarCommie -- I'm not saying that women are victimized by men (or "penis-having individuals") being present. I'm saying that those people, particularly those without dysphoria or the legal identification of a separate gender, have other options that they should utilize, simply because I don't think children should have to see penises when they change. There are private changing rooms that I think provide apt accommodation for these individuals. Blaire White has not had bottom surgery. She still uses the women's bathroom, because legally she is a woman -- I support that. I do not think that people with penises, if they have transitioned and are now legally women, are men. People who have transitioned (the prerequisite being that they have dysphoria) into women and are legally women should -- and legally have to -- use women's bathrooms. That's a completely separate argument from the one I was making. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Also, hi, Lefty. I'm trans. I can tell you that transmedicalism isn't transphobic. Trans people's opinions matter all the time, not just when they suit your opinion. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Goody for you, you're still wrong. (Also I kind of figured as much pretty early on, given how emotionally invested you seemed in trying to distinguish transphobia and trans people.) So, we're going to go and define terms. I define transphobia as harmful behaviors, prejudices, assumptions and stereotypes about trans people. You'll note that this definition makes no distinction on whether the proponent of transphobia is trans or not. That would be special pleading, as well as a thoroughly discredited assumption. After all, Racist blacks, misogynistic women, and homophobic gay people exist, thusly, it stand to reason that transphobic trans people exist as well. Now, if you want to hear a trans person back my claims, I just so happen to have an hour long debate between two trans people (one of whom is a TERF and a transmedicalist) that I can link. And I have! Enjoy! ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
So you have no argument, just that I'm wrong because "racist blacks, misogynistic women and homophobic gay people" exist, so then I must therefore be a transphobic trans person. You don't explain how my stance is "harmful" towards trans people, and you yourself not being trans don't have the perspective to do so. I have the lived experience. Non-dysphoric people simply aren't trans and make light of the very real struggles trans people have, which is dysphoria. I don't understand how you can be trans without dysphoria. It's manipulative to say that I believe people must "suffer" to be trans. I believe that people must have the desire to transition to be trans. I don't see what's transphobic about that. I'm not going to watch your video because I have the lived experience and I've debated with more people about it than this one video, which you claim somehow proves your point, showcases. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 20:25, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
You respond 13 min. after GC posted his video, which is 1 hour and 13 minutes long... Gunther1987 (talk) 20:31, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I think we can all agree that expecting somebody to watch a 73 minute video is probably against the Geneva Convention-Hastur! (talk) 20:35, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── I advise watching the video. Else you are indeed talking over trans people you disagree with. That thing you keep accusing me of doing. Further, your argument is reducible to an appeal to experience, special pleading, and an escape hatch, a fallacious argument which I do not have to consider valid. This is not the same as talking over trans people, (Or neuroscientists and legal experts for that matter, but we'll get to that here in a few posts I suspect), but instead understanding that things are more complex than our individual experiences may lead us to believe. Such is life. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:42, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining the terms LGM. I wasn't aware of all the definitions so it helps. Still not feeling good about permaban, but since this shitstain keeps doubling down on his abusive language here, I'd be willing to vote for up to 3 months block. With the warning that more of the same will come if he doesn't keep his gender ideas to himself after that.Coigreach (talk) 20:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@Hastur I was unaware that there was a requirement that evidence have a time limit. Perhaps you might show me such a ruling? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 20:47, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
It's in here somewhere-Hastur! (talk) 20:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I've listened and own music mixsets that are between 3 & 4 hours long. Guess I'm in trouble now. Gunther1987 (talk) 20:58, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie The way you are framing this discussion is manipulative. Unlike LGC, I'm actually a trans person who has had a lot of conversation within the trans community on the subject. You frame your video (and the video's title) as though something clearly meant to be divisive is true -- that this trans person is a "TERF". I'm not going to watch the video simply because I'm knowledgeable on the subject. I consider it a fallacy that you don't address my arguments on their own merits -- you have consistently failed to demonstrate how my own words are "harmful toward trans people". If your only argument is not a direct address of my own actions but rather that, by my refusal to watch a video that's over an hour long that clearly uses sensationalized language and appeals to your own biases (which is hilarious, because the wiki criticizes Blaire White of doing that same thing. I have listened to trans people of all perspectives -- of course you don't need to care about that, but I will personally lose no sleep if you decide to blatantly ignore that and accuse me of talking over trans people just because I won't watch this **one** video. Also @Coigreach, what abusive language am I, a trans woman, using?
I will throw @GR a bone here. I agree that trans people who cannot afford to transition should be respected as transwomen. That's separate from the discussion on people who don't have dysphoria. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 21:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
So I’m not a proper editor here but I am a trans person (with dysphoria and medically transitioning too, everyone should agree here). I would not have ever figured out that I was a girl unless I was first told that non-binary identities were valid and could explore that first. I did not realise that what I was feeling was dysphoria until I was told that it was okay to not have dysphoria and still be trans, because without exploring that part of my identity, because II could actually come to the pretty scary/uncomfortable conclusion that not EVERYONE actually spent hours thinking about having a feminine voice or a vagina or whatever else, and also that a lot of the hate you have for your body could be actually changed by medical transition. I had to fight an unpleasant uphill battle to get to transition, and I never would have got there on a transmedicalist path. So even ignoring the question of “are these people valid????” (as if that’s a question worthy of debate in the first place), my life as a trans person you medical types would accept would be much, much worse now, and I would still be living with uncontrolled, confused, hopeless dysphoria. This is to say nothing of the fact that “transtrenders” is literally just the same shit TERFS and religious conservatives and alt-righters throw at us, but repurposed. So long story short as a trans person, fuck transmedicalism and fuck blair white. 14.200.71.173 (talk) 21:06, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Also regardless of who decides to respond I would encourage everyone to avoid trying to go through my whole story or whatever to find proof that I’m not really dysphoric/trans/etc. I see that a lot in similar “debates” and I would like to ask for people to keep their opinions to themselves about that kind of shit IRT me. Thanks. 49.197.57.199 (talk) 21:09, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
(Both BONs are me (same person), switched from wifi to data)49.197.57.199 (talk) 21:12, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm sorry to hear of your suffering. There isn't much more that I can say. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 21:29, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
I recognize non-binary identities as valid and deeply encourage people who are uncertain about their gender to go that route. I also encourage people to be made aware of dysphoria, as I'm sure that would have helped you, BON. I don't agree with your last sentence. I personally, though I may be wrong, but I personally do not believe that I have ever used the word transtrender. I don't think it's anything close to the same thing as anything the Right or TERFS use, because it's directed towards very different people -- people who aren't trans. Nonetheless, I'm very glad you're transitioning. Go you, sister. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 21:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
According to TERFs (who are not restricted to the right, as I have already pointed out multiple times) Trans people aren't trans. You haven't justified your gatekeeping beyond vague gesturing towards gender dysphoria. As our BoN friend here has pointed out, such thinking is neither helpful nor practical. Now, You have talked over three trans people (including the trans woman from the video I linked) and dismissed their opinions, and I have yet to see anything justifying your position other than fallacious appeals and tokenism. Do better, lay out for me what about trans people is inherently tied to gender dysphoria. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 22:03, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
It's been like, 2 weeks now and everyone is still squabbling with this idiot? Arguing with truscum concern trolls doesn't get anybody anywhere but all of the big mods are doing exactly what they want, and feeding their persecution complex. Just prema-block if they do damage to the wiki and ignore them. Rockford the Roe (talk) 22:09, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
The fact that this person is completely ignoring sapient & this BoN's comments + agreeing with dipshits like Blaire White says enough. Gunther1987 (talk) 22:55, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Yeah I circle back to the original: block this douche for a while. Block 'em if they're annoying again after it expires. Heck, block em for whatever reason, I don't care.. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 23:16, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Cis people aren't trans. Trans people are trans. You do need dysphoria to be trans, because that's the requirement to transition and therefore legally become the other gender in many places in the U.S.. If you do not want to transition from one gender to the other, how can you say you are trans? You can't. Gender identity isn't an aesthetic. Gender expression is, and I recognize and appreciate that they are two separate things that should not be conflated. I have not talked over any trans people. I told the BoN that I'm glad she's recognized her dysphoria and is doing something about it, though I disagree with her. That is not talking over her and it's not ignoring her. I don't agree, I gave my reasons for not agreeing, and I'm being very respectful to her. I'm happy for her. I deny your request for an informal debate on my page. You have shown that you are completely incapable of debating on here, by constantly deflecting, not being able to address my arguments on their own merits and rather over whether or not I'm willing to waste an hour of my life on you watching a video to get a point you could just make yourself. That the person in the video was trans is literally tokenism, and you're operating under the fallacy that since they're saying it, it must be true. I pointed out that I'm trans (and so is Blaire) to dispel that notion. You need to do better. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 23:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
Now, this coop was started after a recent ban of mine that took place over this edit. I had a discussion with the person who rollbacked the edit, hoping to discuss my reasons for my edit, which was in good-faith, and come to a compromise about what we would both like to see on the page. Since I have not received word from them, I'm going to make a sandbox page for the proposed merger and post it on the relevant talk page. I'm announcing this here because I want it clear that while I have everyone's attention, I am not here to be disruptive, and I want that on the record. My last ban, which called me insane for some reason, was I believe unnecessary, but I'm familiar enough with this site to know that those with power do not care very much how they use it, and I respect that this place is supposed to be a mobocracy. I hope that I can receive good favor from the mob for this one action. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 23:43, 16 July 2020 (UTC)
@TheLeftIsIrrational So until our BoN friend here was diagnosed with dysphoria, they weren't trans? Or no? Your argument is a vapid as if I argued that trans men aren't men because they don't have penises. "It is how it is because I say it is, and because I am X group I can token authority argument this assertion." This is your argument, and you have still shown jack all to explain why we should believe a portion of the trans community isn't valid. I already explained how your position is basically just a more moderate version of the TERF position, I can quote the relevant sentences if you need referencing, but you refuse to demonstrate how being trans and having gender dysphoria are inherently linked beyond a simple of assertion that they are. As for whether I take something as true just because a trans person says it is so, obviously not. You however, made that assertion, and I can quote back the exact sentence(s) where you said so. Again, I have fulfilled my burden of proof, but you have yet to even begin to approach yours. As for deflecting, I have not deflected jack fucking shit. Show me where I have, quote me exactly or rescind that assertion. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 00:41, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure before she had dysphoria she likely still identified as a male, so no she was not trans. She was dysphoric, which is a pre-requisite (this is a matter of fact, not my opinion) for being trans. I am not "tokening" authority. I directly stated all trans voices should be heard and that my being trans was to dispel your tokenism. I've been on record before as saying trans people don't belong to the left. They don't answer to me either. My opinion, being an opinion, is not indicative of what is true. The facts speak for themselves, and I will repeat the facts: You do need dysphoria to be trans, because that's the requirement to transition and therefore legally become the other gender in many places in the U.S.. If you do not want to transition from one gender to the other, how can you say you are trans? You can't. For all your accusations that I'm not backing up my argument, it's not really under attack. It's as true as that the sky is blue. Furthermore, it's something you've failed to address that on your own. As for your deflections, when I made arguments, genuine arguments, your go-to response was "you're talking over trans people!" Repeatedly. That's deflecting. In any case, I'm no longer going to be arguing on this subject. If you're petty enough to try to pull a victory from the jaws of defeat, I'll leave you the last word. This coop is no longer about me and whether I should be banned. Now people other than myself are engaged in this discussion on both sides. Therefore, allegations of transphobia are no longer a good case for my banning. You can ban me for whatever reason you'd like. You can ban me forever. I truly do not care. This is not my site, and so many people have no interest in making it better.TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 01:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Ok, so firstly, the sky is in fact not blue, it is colorless. And since you' haven't backed up you claim nor rescinded your spurious accusations... Well, I'm going to have to shoot you dead metaphorically. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:16, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Also, I haven't said anything resembling a victory declaration. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
"You have shown that you are completely incapable of debating on here, by constantly deflecting, not being able to address my arguments on their own merits and rather over whether or not I'm willing to waste an hour of my life on you watching a video to get a point you could just make yourself. That the person in the video was trans is literally tokenism, and you're operating under the fallacy that since they're saying it, it must be true. I pointed out that I'm trans (and so is Blaire) to dispel that notion." Never lie on a wiki. Yes, I'm accusing you of lying. And unlike your own baseless accusations, I will back up mine. Here you are bringing up trans identity as a shield, well before I brought up the fact that you were ignoring trans people you disagree with. And in fact, that and "Also, hi, Lefty. I'm trans. I can tell you that transmedicalism isn't transphobic. Trans people's opinions matter all the time, not just when they suit your opinion." demonstrate you engaging in tokenism, again, before I ever brought that up. Oopsy! Lies are hard aren't they?!?! In both links, you actually ignored my points in whole or in part, so accusing me of ignoring your points is rather pathetic self-projection on your part. Speaking of, here's you dodging my point and hyperfocusing on the video element, which was only there because you placed such great weight on trans testimony. Oops, didn't think that one through did you? This is by the way, when you began talking over other trans people in the discussion. You know, that thing you repeatedly accused me of doing because I wouldn't shut up and go along with you. Oopsie! Here you are accusing me of dishonesty, while yourself engaging in dishonesty! If you had watched the video, which again was only there because of your own tokenism, you would have heard the TERF and transmedicalist agree with these labels. Wow, maybe actually check things out before making up your mind on them!!! Also as an aside, I don't care if you watch the video, I just thought it was a useful resource for someone who won't engage with a subject unless a trans person says it. Though of course, what you really meant is that unless they agree with you, you won't engage with them. Here you are dismissing a trans person's experiences because they don't fit into your narrative, you know, that thing you accused me and LGM of doing. Rather dishonest of you. Either that or you lack the self awareness to recognize when you are engaging in bad behavior, which is possible, given several of your actions on this site. Here you are defaming me with your crimes... I think it's pretty clear who the narrow minded, agenda driven person is, given the context for your statements. So, either your too clueless to possess self awareness of your own hypocrisy, or you're a liar. Pick one. Now, I have "won". (How does one "win" a search for truth anyway? Is a win state even possible?) Anyway, fuck you! If it seems like I switched from tired and somewhat polite to spiteful and snarky, that's because I have. I really don't take kindly to intellectual dishonesty. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:51, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
Neither of those were "tokenism". The first reference is to say that I've had these conversations, that I'm an active part of the community and that the debate is one I'm familiar with, and to provide the consensus of those I've spoken to. It's not using my identity to make myself some sort of authority. The second example was, if you were at all intellectually honest (which you've proven time and time again with me that you're not) and at least capable of basic reading comprehension, that my describing myself as trans in the conversation was a way to dispel the present tokenism. Before you did it, Lefty did it. "You have shown that you are completely incapable of debating on here, by constantly deflecting, not being able to address my arguments on their own merits and rather over whether or not I'm willing to waste an hour of my life on you watching a video to get a point you could just make yourself. That the person in the video was trans is literally tokenism, and you're operating under the fallacy that since they're saying it, it must be true. I pointed out that I'm trans (and so is Blaire) to dispel that notion." That paragraph addresses every single thing that you've said here. I have not dismissed any trans person's experiences, and I know that you're aware of this and lying because you reverted an edit I made saying that I would like to listen more to the trans people who are addressing me so that I could have a broader perspective. I've told you why I'm not watching your video, and frankly now you've given me reason to straight up not listen to you. You just secured your defeat. This convo's over. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 02:18, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Little help[edit]

Could someone walk me through the "totally trans but has no interest in transitioning" bit? I get that surgery or hormone treatment might be a bridge too far for people who sincerely identify as other than their birth sex, but for argument's sake, does big, hairy Fred over there get to be legally recognised as Freida whilst keeping the ZZ Top beard and living / acting / dressing the way they've always done previously? Fred's belief in the truth of their inner Freida is completely sincere for the purposes of this argument. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 23:46, 16 July 2020 (UTC)

transmedicalism basically excludes non-binary people, the idea that people can only transition from one sex to the other by physical means doesn't reflect the concept of gender itself or allow for non-binary gender trans people to exist. — Z 00:10, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
How can one be trans and non binary? I thought trans was moving from one gender to the other. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 00:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I personally find non-binary identities to be valid, as I've stated above. As I've also been quoted on saying, they aren't trans. TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 00:17, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
read this and @DuceMoosolini consider for a moment, how you could be non-binary gender without moving from either male or female to non-binary. It's obvious. — Z 00:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
"Many modern cultures consider non-binary genders a form of transgender identity, and non-binary people may describe themselves as trans. Other cultures and traditions see them as simply another way of existing, and non-binary people from those cultures don't necessarily describe themselves in transgender terms. A non-binary person is not necessarily the same as a transsexual or an intersex person (though they can be), and as many transsexuals and intersex people view themselves as being either men or women, they will often take umbrage at being placed into a third category without being asked." A very contingent category, according to our own article.Ariel31459 (talk) 00:28, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
@Helena Bonham Carter Tranmedicalism goes a bit further than that, with several of them arguing that if a trans person doesn't have a complete transition (which is extremely expensive thanks to capitalism and transphobia), then those people aren't really trans. Also, as I illustrated above, they're also fond of using TERF and other transphobic rhetoric. So, overall they tend to be quite toxic. I do recommend the debate I linked earlier, as it rehashes several points I've used here as well as several that I've either forgotten or haven't come up yet. Alternately, I can do may best to try to elaborate on these nuances on your talkpage if you are so inclined. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:09, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
"I agree that trans people who cannot afford to transition should be respected as transwomen." TheLeftIsIrrational (talk) 01:15, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
@GrammarCommie Cheers. I'm familiar with who transmedicalism excludes. I'm interested in how inclusive those preferring other definitions of trans are willing / able to be. In short, what about Fred? Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 01:31, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I mean, if Fred/Freida is sincre to the best of our knowledge, and there aren't any mental issues in play as far as we can determine, then yes? I mean, If I run this through Rawls' original position/veil of ignorance, I can't think of any reason to stop Fred/Freida from engaging in their life the way they choose. I'm not sure what else to say here, to be honest. Are there any other factors I should be aware of for the purposes of this thought experiment? ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 01:56, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
None. Your position has the distinct advantage of being internally coherent, but it seems uncontroversial to observe that there's a fuckload of groundwork to be done before most cis women will ever be as blasé as yourself about accepting Freida's big, beardy womanhood as on a par with their own. With that in mind, you should probably avoid claiming this maximally-inclusive definition is a settled matter, and definitely avoid any suggestion that arguments to the contrary are necessarily transphobic. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 02:57, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
@Helena Bonham Carter You seem to be strawmanning me. I'm not calling the other person transphobic because they reject Freida, but because of the byproducts of this attitude. As I pointed out two comments ago in fact. The need to gatekeep the trans community is so great that they (transmedicalists) seek to dismiss the suffering of actual trans people. ☭Comrade GC☭Ministry of Praise 11:06, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Little help little[edit]

I think the discussion about transmedicalism itself isn't relevant to the coop page (I think), but whether we should tolerate transmedicalism on this website. I used to be transmedicalist-ish (I am cisgender, so it shouldn't matter anyway) and something quite sobering was to do research into orchiectomyWikipedia (surgical removal of testicles). For trans women to do this, they have to undergo that surgery and it's post-op recovery and they have to take testosterone supplements for the rest of their life to balance the low production of the sex hormone now that the testicles are gone; this isn't to count the potential side-effects and post-op depression that can occur. Those health risks alone can be quite discouraging to a lot of trans women, and a similar pattern, as far as I know, exists for trans men; but we haven't even mentioned financial and social factors that can influence someone's decision to not undergo gender reassignment surgery.

This is to say: transitioning can be a risky and costly process that would be unjust for us to demand of every trans person just because we want to make them fit what we think should be people of a certain gender. Any empathetic approach to this would get you the understanding that not everybody wants to go through this; and we should respect their decision.

In short, I think transmedicalism is less transphobic (but transphobic nonetheless, along with being binarist) than, say, someone who just wants to murder trans people. I think it can be debated if the interlocutor is interested in changing their mind. If @TheLeftIsIrrational is actually interested in understanding this issue and possibly change their mind when confronted with evidence, it's a win-win for everybody. The debate in here shouldn't be whether transmedicalism is transphobic (because it is, it is gatekeeping for no reason other than conventional wisdom) but whether we should tolerate and debate people with such views. Let me know what you think. — Godless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 13:09, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

Gender dysphoria, as a whole, is a relatively poorly understood phenomenon. I think "transmedicalism" is not a really good opinion. Due to the somewhat fuzzy nature of the causation of gender dysphoria, there is good reason, in my opinion, to hold back on medically transitioning until one is *absolutely sure* that they want to pursue that path, and *absolutely sure* that transitioning will help. All transitions are expensive and life-altering after all. Gender dysphoria is a diagnostic that is independent of the treatment anyways.
Personally, I don't think having the opposite opinion though automatically would warrant a ban, if such thoughts are made without malice. I don't know why we're having yet another gigantic coup page and it's mostly about transphobia, instead of TheLeftIsIrrational being a fucking troll. A successful one, unfortunately, it seems. Soundwave106 (talk) 14:08, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
IMHO, all parties dragging this further should be slapped with a wet trout. Put TLII in the Vandal Bin, they're a rather obvious concern troll and it's what the bin is for. Escalate blocks if they push shit into mainspace up to 3 months. If a 3 month block doesn't work, feel free to drag them here with a perma, but right now I don't think the criteria to perma block a user have been met. If you want to debate about the subject of transmedicalism, make a page in the Debate namespace and do it there (as per: RationalWiki:Constructive dialogue). The coop isn't... really the place to talk about that stuff. If the subject is "should we allow transmedicalists on the site", I would suggest taking it with the same amount of salt as we do with any other type of disingenuous hack: disprove arguments when they pop up, but don't block unless they start inserting that stuff into mainspace. Techpriest (I am Alpharius! / Pencil.png / Tux icon.png / Shield.png) 15:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I agree close the coop forthwith. Give User:TheLeftIsIrrational some non-permanent punishment for now (vandal bin or up to 3-week block). Give All this discussion on transmedicalism belongs on Talk:Transmedicalism. Bongolian (talk) 17:20, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I officially rescind my call to permaban. That was hasty and it seems that despite the name, this user is more reasonable and less of an asshole than I first thought. Pizza SLICE.gifChef Moosolini’s Ristorante ItalianoMake a Reservation 18:32, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
I still have very terrible first impressions but we'll see how this user goes on other topics. --It's-a me, Lgm sigpic.png LeftyGreenMario!(Mod) 19:26, 17 July 2020 (UTC)
As long as the user doesn't edit war there is no reason to punish them. There are worse things to be than a determinist over gender issues. The punishment should be for bad manners.Ariel31459 (talk) 19:53, 17 July 2020 (UTC)

For debating the subject...[edit]

I created a debate page for it, so that this coop case can be archived if need be. https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Debate:TransmedicalismGodless Raven SDAPOe logo.svg talkstalkwalkbalk 🌹 Flag of Europe.svg 22:06, 17 July 2020 (UTC)