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WE ARE ALL GOING TO DIE![edit]

Swine flu, eh? Something else for the tabloids to sensationalise about. Is sensationalise a word? [1] SuperJosh "crying into a flannel" 10:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes. I think the problem is the word "pandemic". Scientists use it to mean " occurring over a wide geographic area". Media sees it as "Black plague! Bring out your dead!" *cough* *sneeze* *oink* uh-oh... --PsyGremlinWhut? 10:49, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Not just the bloids. the Guardian has been livebloogging in an unnecessary manner as well, and there's that googlemaps tracker as well. Meanwhile, someone at my shop tok the week off because a customer came in sniffling. We're all doomed, Cap'n Mainwaring! Totnesmartin 11:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
When swine 'flu meets bird flue you get flying pig flu - now that's dangerous. Silver Sloth 11:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Hah, it's all you strapping young lads (and laddettes) who are going be struck down in you're prime while we decrepit oldies just get another bout of sniffles. But who's going to work and generate the tax-cash for my well-deserved handsome state pension? You don't know you're even born you snivelling young whippersnappers. Wimps, the lot of you! Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 11:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Flu? ha! They don't know what flu is. In my day t'ere were 'undred an' forty o' us, livin' in box in middle owt road... --PsyGremlinWhut? 11:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
You were lucky. We lived for three months in a petri dish at the Plymouth hospital for tropical diseases! Totnesmartin 11:37, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh we would have dreamed of living in a petri dish, would've been a palace to us. We lived in a brown paper bag in our neighbor's septic tank. SirChuckBCall the FBI 15:06, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Try telling that to the youngsters nowadays ... ToastToastand marmite 15:13, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
I sleep in a drawer. Cramped. SuperJosh "crying into a flannel" 16:38, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
A brown paper bag? What I wouldn't give for a paper bag, let alone a brown one in my septic tank. Word educated Phantom Hoover! 16:43, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure most of you don't need this, but here are some good links for following the epidemic in a panic-free way. Effect Measure, Aetiology, and the CDC webpage. For bullshit remedies you can search the Huffington Post, and there are some great conspiracy theories out on the internets. PalMD is following some woo, and Michelle Bachmann has some ideas of her own. And they are wrong. Corry 17:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

That last sentence wasn't redundant wasn't it? Meanwhile, someone 4 miles from me caught it (luckily she's better now) Totnesmartin 18:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
She's double wrong because she got her presidents mixed up. FAIL. And take care, I hope you don't get an outbreak in your neighborhood. Corry 18:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Oh no guys! This could end up being as world-ending as SARS! Err... West Nile Virus! Wait! Meant Bird Flu! Or was it Mad Cow Disease? -ENorman (not signed in)
Ben Goldacre has a nice piece on this: http://www.badscience.net/2009/04/parmageddon/ --seventhrib 14:23, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Can't remember where I saw it being flushed through the sewerpipes of the intertubes (Twitter?) but wasn't there some fundyloon take about swine flu being a punishment from God for electing BHO or some other moral failing of the United States? Why the Little "g" would want to punish all those impoverished Mexican Catholics for the sins of the USA seems like a real distorted POV. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 14:51, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Funny, the last US president associated with Swine Flu was Ford. (And I've been bitterly joking for a while now that "Barack Obama" is Swahili for "Gerald Ford"... COINCIDENCE?!?!?!? yeah, probably --Gulik 22:33, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Another Christian Wiki[edit]

Christopedia is another Christian wiki to laugh at check out. Proxima Centauri 19:57, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, they've got a pretty good article on evolution, clearly copied from elsewhere. The front page suggests they're gonna get to the Good Work of removing the facts real soon now. --Kels 20:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Taking a look at recent changes, the word "they" may be overselling things a tad... --Kels 20:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Taking a look at the block-log, I think this is a Poe. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 20:14, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
This doesn't look good either (although the current featured article could tell you that too) Totnesmartin 20:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
FD was there a while again, as Grawp. GRAWP WANT HAGGER! --Prim arthropleura.jpg 20:26, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Sez you. How d'you know it was him? Totnesmartin 20:27, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Not many people choose the name grawp. . . Oh, and he (the owner) is also a rascist bigot. I think this entails an operashun. For example, I say we start a massive page-blank operation. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 20:29, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
You reek noobish when you say things like that. Grawp has been vandalising wikis long before Fall down ever made his appearance. You do know Fall down was a good contributor to Wikipedia before he got himself banned? Grawp has and always will be a vandal. - π 22:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Wait- there's some internet-famous vandal named Grawp? It's hard to be famous on the intertubes. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 22:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Is there another level I can promote you too? - π 22:36, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
No. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 22:39, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Can we create one just for you? - π 22:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
How about we leave it alone and not publisize it, letting it fade into obscurity. Z3rotalk 20:32, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm not going anywhere near it after this thread, it's more metapedia than conservapedia. Yuk. Totnesmartin 20:33, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Okay. We do, however, need an article. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 20:34, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
2 things. No we don't, and stop pretending to be Jean-Luc Picard. Mei 20:42, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll make that so. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 22:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Shut up Wesley. Mei 22:49, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Shall I crush-her? --Prim arthropleura.jpg 22:55, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
...Where did my curjoke template go? Mei 23:01, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Not very up-to-date, either - their main page featured article says Barack Obama "...is president-elect of the United States." ħumanUser talk:Human 20:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Possibly intentional - couls be a "birther". Totnesmartin 21:10, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone keep an eye on the site to make sure CUR's not dropping us into anything. ToastToastand marmite 21:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, the Obama article is about on par with Conservapedia. Let's drink everytime it says the word "mulatto"! Scarlet A.pnggnostic 09:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Well they started on 29 April 2008, so "happy-fucking-birthday Christopedia". The main page has some Polish(? or other Eastern European language) red links so it could be linked to some of those racist hate sites. XenonII appears to be the only editor and he/it imports pages from Wikipedia and possibly Metapedia judging by their obsession with the typical racist topics (Negroid, Mulatto, Caucasoid, Human subspecies, Mongoloid, Negroid-American, Race, Race and crime, Race and intelligence, Racial differences between Negroes and Caucasians). However with only 79 registered editors (including Christisacunt666, Grawp, Atheist, FuckingIdiots, Icewedge and Karajou [NOT]) I can't see it going rapidly anywhere except further downhill. This is one site that deserves to be well and truly buried. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 15:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

9/11[edit]

I watched the South Park episode earlier "Mystery of the Urinal Deuce" where Cartman tries to uncover a conspiracy about 9/11. Just reminded me about it when I heard about some conspiracy rumours of swine flu. SJ Debaser 21:28, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Laptop elsewhere.[edit]

This morning (Wednesday, so technically yesterday morning), I was doomed to wait for what I thought would be hours but only turned out to be 30 minutes in a hospital waiting area. I'd been dumped by my driver who went off home so I'd taken teh laptop to get some creative stuff done. The battery started dropping at an alarming rate so I plugged in to a friendly neighbourhood power point (presumably vacuum cleaners & floor polishers for the use of).
Within five minutes:

"'Scuse me, madam" (MADAM!) "you can't do that here." A security person (yes we have them in hospitals, complete with badges)
"What?"
"Plug in to our power."
"Oh surely, it's only ..." (quick check on power supply label) "... 1.6 amps."
"Sorry, madam, it's rules ..."

Fortunately, or unfortunately, my name was called & I toddled off, laptop & PSU bagged on shoulder & smiling (with gritted teeth) at my interlocutor. I don't know if I'd have argued or caved in.
It occured to me, you hear about people working in coffee shops, caffs & trains all day on laptops, do they plug in (& if so are they charged for it?), or do they have better batteries? ToastToastand marmite 02:54, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Ahh you see a cup of coffee cost about 20c to make and they sell it for $3.50, making $3.30. However the biggest problem they have is selling you more than one. They give you power and the internet so you do sit there all day buying one cup of coffee every hour all the while making now only $3.25 profit on each cup. Hospitals on the other hand want to get you in and out as fast as they can. - π 03:00, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I plug in, at no charge. I'm at a coffee shop now, and like every other place in urban Korea it has wireless. But these are commercial places, and you generally generate commerce while you're there. A hospital isn't going to benefit from you using their power. We'll see a lot more of these types of disputes as electric vehicles hit the road: "No, you can't plug your Volt into my outlet!"--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 03:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I think we'll start seeing metered outlets, at, say, motels, that are activated by your key card. Pretty simple, really, and they can advertise "electrics charged at cost, not like slimeballmotel who charges double!" Hospitals should just take pity on the poor fucks stuck in their waiting rooms. ħumanUser talk:Human 03:29, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I have little doubt my neighbor will try to steal my power. Also, the news will be filled with stories of people using household extension cables and starting fires. You know, this whole environmentalism thing may be a bad idea. Where can I get a coal-powered car?--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 03:34, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I used to go to a particular coffee shop to study. It was great- it was independent, it had mismatched squishy furniture, good coffee, good atmosphere. Then some assbag insurance salesman bought it and started screwing it up. Among other "improvements" he started charging to plug in. I remember the first time the poor kid working the counter had to go around telling people to pay or unplug. A fellow sitting near me looked up and said "Really? I've written two books here!" They started hanging signs saying "Theft of electrical service will not be tolerated." I don't go there anymore- I started going to a Starbucks that was actually closer. I went out of my way to spend my money at an indy shop, but they made the atmosphere uninviting. The shame is that it is something like a hundred years old, and they're doing their best to alienate the regulars. Corry 03:58, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
That's sad, and asinine. What's a laptop run on? 100 watts or so? That would cost me 1.5 cents an hour. Seriously. Sure, insist "customers" actually buy stuff, but a $3.50 latte covers a lot of electrocity. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:13, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
This immediately reminded me of Tuesday's Dilbert. It's not just laptops, what about mobile phones? I spent a lot of time in hospitals when my wife was having cancer treatment and think I got approached just once about plugging in my laptop. Theoretically it is probably stealing but in the scheme of things by not turning off alight or even leaving a window open (many hospital wards are overheated in my experience) uses far much more energy. At work there is a stated policy that small use of company materials like the internet or phone are acceptable; it is recognised that people have a life and family outside the office and maintaining a balance is an important part of keeping the employees happy. People don't deliberately go into hospitals just to recharge their laptops and work they are usually there for an appointment or to visit a sick relative or friend. Hospital visits are not jollies they are unpleasant necessities, keeping people happy (within reason) makes their interactions with staff more pleasant. If you're frustrated and bored you're more likely to take it out on the nurses, so letting someone suck up a few watts has a positive benefit. In my experience the medical staff are usually very helpful it's the admins and security who are officious. I should point out that when I used my laptop at night in the hospital canteen (my wife's chemo on an outpatient basis often went on until the early hours of the morning) I had to unplug a light to connect my laptop so I was saving actually electricity. I have a mains power monitor and can verify that my 17" screen Sony is currently sucking about 45 watts even though the power brick is rated at double that. The most expensive charge for domestic customers in the UK is about 13p/kWh, so you're looking at about 2 hours for 1p. Night rates and commercial rates will be much less. If you are a regular visitor then I would suggest asking at the admin office, explain why you'd like to plug in and offer to pay. If you do it nicely they'll probably say just make a donation to the Hospital Friends organisation. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 16:16, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
The problem is it's not about the cost of the electricity, it's about liability. To cover their backs in this litigation crazy world large organisations tend to have rules that only properly tested and authorised equipment may be plugged in to any outlet. This is certainly the case in the office I work in which is in the private sector. If we get a new kettle - which we have to from time to time - we cannot plug it in until it has the proper green sticker issued by the house electrician. I'm not quite sure what he does but an ohm meter comes into it somewhere. With rules such as that it's easiest to make a blanket rule about waiting areas rather than leave it to the discretion to minimum wage security guards who aren't trained in electrical safety. Silver Sloth 09:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I've spent the better part of the last 3 weeks in airports, train terminals, and metro stations, and everyone is plugged in there. In fact, the airports (us, Ireland, Edinburgh and paris) *all* has special towers with nothing but free plugs. They were for 1.4 amps only (I think. I forget such petty details, to my husband and friend's disdain) -- just enough to recharge a phone or a lappytop. Pretty much every coffee shop we have advertises free wifi, and has added plugs in teh wall to support the number of students who go there to hang out. As others have said, when you pay 3.50 for a cup o'joe, it's not a big deal to pay 2 cents per hour for electricity. --Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot""We are all born mad. Some remain so." 19:55, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
Well the liability argument only really applies to equipment provided by the institution. Although heavy duty items like kettles, TVs, etc. might overload a circuit and may indeed be used by other people. In our office a small refrigerator which I donated had to be verified by the site services department and if you visit hotels then the kettles, TVs and hair-dryers will all have their little safety stickers, yet I doubt that any hotel would insist that a lap-top or mobile phone charger be checked by their electrician beforehand. Also I would speculate that if a patient in the hospital wanted to plug in their laptop, or mp3 player then no certification would be required. It would probably only be an issue if they were otherwise charging you for providing the same service. In our conference rooms their are plenty of sockets for the use of people's laptops including those brought in by contractors and vendors. Given the focus on safety that we have, obligatory holding of the hand-rail when using stairs no matter how small or lightly raked, then I am sure the safety issue of non-company laptops has been thoroughly evaluated. Actually, now I think of it none of our company laptops are checked either. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 20:18, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
PS The checks that the electrician makes will cover correct wiring of the leads and testing for leakage to ground. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 20:21, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I had a little look around our thriving metropolis (not!) this morning (it's now 9:28 pm) & none, NONE!, of the coffee-bars/caffs have any available power sockets. One pub appears to & a wifi node or whatever it's called on the premises. I'll check further. ToastToastand marmite 20:31, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
The especially brazen could take a folding chair and go sit in the middle of large department store's sales floor and utilise one of their many in floor outlets more commonly used for hoovering after hours. The more timid could just use the changing rooms. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 20:46, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Relationship advice[edit]

Some people caught some at the end of the first breakup therapy (or something like that) section. While the bartender brings everyone a round I'll tell my story. I'm 17 and a senior in high school. I am or rather was dating this girl who is my first love. Is because I still love her.

Her life has been pretty fucked up, and sometimes reads like the script that soap operas throw away because it's too unbelievable. Five months before we got together, which was six months ago, she broke up with her boyfriend of two years. The guy was a complete asshole, and the only reason they stayed together so long was because every time she would try to break up with him he would say he was going to commit suicide or some shit like that. He completely messed with her. I forgot to mention that he was also older, so around 20. After they broke up he messed with her even more. Making extravagant claims and even going so far as to around Christmas (when we were dating) he hooked up with one of her now ex-friends who was back from college and called her up together. He told her that her friend reminded him of her. This is enough to make me want to hurt him, but some stuff that I'm leaving out made me want to kill him, slowly with a knife. I'm not joking about that I got down my hunting knife and tried to find out where he lived. Unfortunately I couldn't spell his name right so I couldn't find anything out about him, I don't know what I would of done if I had found him, but I was in a bloodlust for a long time. One of the claims he made when he broke up with her was that he had brain tumors, so she pretty much told him to stop lieing and fuck off. See the thing is her best friend from her childhood got cancer and died in 7th grade, so you can see how that could mess with her.

Well Tuesday the 21st of last week she got a text from him saying he was going into surgery in Washington and that he would see everyone on the other side. She texted him back, and got a response from a person claiming to be his aunt telling her he was having brain surgery. So she tried to get a hold of his family, and Wednesday night when I was there they called her back. She understandably freaked out at the world, and told me I made her feel guilty and to get out and go away. I thought from this she wanted some space, so I gave her some room and didn't call or contact her but checked up on her through her friends who knew what was going on.

On Sunday I texted one of her friends who I knew she had hung out with the night before how she was doing. He didn't respond so I texted him again at noon. He accidentally sent me a text meant for her that said "Oh shit he just texted of(sic) again." At that point I just called her, and then she broke up with me. Turned out she only wanted me to stay away Wednesday. Monday night she called me again, and said she had been too harsh but she still wanted to be just friends. So I said sure, I love you, I want you to be happy, I'm here for you. Tuesday rolls around, and I couldn't do it. I couldn't spend 35 minutes at lunch just being her friend.

I told her I needed a little bit of time to figure everything out, and then I would be there for her. At first she seemed understanding, but then she came and found me before work and chewed me out for a while about how her ex had taken a turn for the worse and was dieing. The bastard wouldn't die when I wanted him too, and now when I've seen the effect on her and don't want him to he is. She told me I was being selfish not being there for her.

So I called her tonight and told her that I wanted to help and would fill any role needed, but now she doesn't trust me and is pissed at me for this.

This is long and I apologize for that, but it's been kind of therapeutic also I just got you all twelve rounds of internet beer. Yorick 06:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

No need to apologize. No easy response - I have obvious thoughts (she's too warped/wrapped, find someone saner, etc.) but they won't help right now. "to be just friends" is the end, sadly, and I hope you can find a way to get your emotions around that. She's wrapping you around her fucked up needs and none of it has anything to do with you or your needs. I recommend music therapy, friends who care for you and don't know her, and, maybe, hopefully in some time, another girl who sweeps your heart away. Since you know now that you can fall in love, and inspire love, surely that is something to look forward to? ħumanUser talk:Human 06:59, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
It is probably time to get into The Smiths, Nick Drake, or Tim Buckley, Yorick. As Human says, music speaks clearer than people at these times. DogP 07:11, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Sorry to hear about that mate, that makes my life seem normal. I know the feeling though. Just try and distract yourself with TV, music, and whatnot. Hang in there and keep your head above the water. SJ Debaser 10:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Shit. It seems that the best way for everyone is to completely cut (metaphorically speaking!) all ties with this guy. He's clearly being manipulative, and he probably won't change in the near future. She needs to completely remove him from her life. It sounds cold, but even if he was really going in for real, no foolin' surgery she probably shouldn't go seem him, unless they invent a procedure to make him not be an asshole.
Guys like this who can't let go are bad news. Really bad news. They will screw with people for years. If she won't burn all bridges with this guy, make sure you don't get wrapped up in their world, because it will only hurt you even more. If that means you don't end up together, that's sad, but you don't want this situation to screw you up. Even worse, you don't want to do something you'd regret later. He's not worth it. The best thing is to calm down, hang out with your friends, and look forward to college. It gets way better, trust me. Corry 12:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
As well as having a saloon bar maybe we should also have a therapist's couch or consultation room where worldly-wise RWians could offer helpful nuggets of wisdom or insights.
The first or certainly the early break-ups are always hard to deal with. Comments like "other fish in the sea" while being 100% true actually offer very little consolation; but as soon as you can see that the chances that the only soul-mate for you whole world goes to the same school or lives just round the corner are really very small. Early relationships are also problematical in that the two parties are probably not fully mentally/socially developed and will in all likelihood be a different person in ten years time. If they aren't, then what on earth are they doing with their lives? The first thing is not to be held back by a poor relationship. As my wife often reiterates "life is not a dress rehearsal" - you only have one life and a limited number of years so make the best of what you have, now! An intimate relationship with another person is a wonderful thing but do not confuse it with lust or sex. If you really fancy someone (i.e. you want to shag them or have their babies) then if they say they just want to be good friends walk away from the situation otherwise it will only cause you grief - the sex monkey will still be on your back and weigh you down. I've had some good relationships with women which did not involve lust (that doesn't mean to say that there was no sex it just means that sex wasn't the goal of the relationship). Having a successful non-sexual relationship means treating the other person with respect, trust and total honesty. If sex is in the back of your mind then you're probably not being completely honest and open. I have known several women (often good-looking and otherwise intelligent) who were dragged into terrible relationships with abusive and manipulative men. Avoid them at all cost, they are flattered that the man needs them or they think that they can change them. They are losers! Much better to choose a plainer girl with a good personality because ultimately it is the personality that matters. Take a look at many pretty girls from years ago (e.g. Brigitte Bardot) and you will find that now they are much less attractive while many women who were not stunners in their youth are actually quite handsome in their later years, but when you're both old and wrinkled being good friends is perhaps the most important thing. With regards to your situation are you 100% sure that this guy really is having treatment for brain tumours? If the evidence only comes from phone calls then I would maintain a degree of scepticism. He's already shown his manipulative tendencies with the suicide threats and life is generally NOT like a soap opera. Unfortunately this girl seems to be falling for this. The fact that she is still involved with this guy probably means she's not going get over the situation in the near-term. You need to find some temporary distraction, be it a good drunken binge, introspective music, a vacation or extreme sports - just make sure that whatever you do is safe and not too illegal. It might also help to find someone of the opposite sex that can be a good friend, I often found that talking these things through with them rather than one of your mates was actually more helpful. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 19:36, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Alas poor Yorick, I know this situation well. Let me just say right off the bat that you should be thankful that it only took a few months to learn the valuable lesson, which I hope you will carry with you for the rest of your life, that some people thrive on co-dependency like this, where their relationships are more like meta-relationships than what you seem to be looking for. This girl is not presently capable of relating to you as a human being, but as a means to an end. Sometimes the end you serve will be superficially consonant with your goal of being loved and respected, having someone who genuinely wants to please you for the sake of pleasing you because she loves you. Sometimes the end will be something that's obviously completely outside anything you could want for yourself - her feeling good at your expense. But either way she's using you and it's not worth it to stick around for those rare moments when things feel right even though you're vigilantly waiting for the other shoe to drop. This is a tough life lesson, dude. It took me years to break things off with a woman who was also involved with another man. She cordoned her life off into neat little parcels, never giving either of us anything complete, just scraps. It was humiliating. Woman can be beautiful, charming, intelligent, and any number of other good things, but relationships are about more than having someone on your arm that only cares for your feelings when she's up for it. If you stick around you're being emotionally cuckolded. This bird has flown. Be civil, be a pal, but let your romantic intentions for yourself guide you to a person capable of an emotionally sustaining relationship. You might not be ready for any of this at your age. I wasn't, but I always knew it was the goal. I wouldn't recommend disconnecting from your friends or family just because you're feeling rotten and used. Listen to music (Jeff Buckley, Nick Drake, and The Smiths are great examples - also check out Tom Waits). Hang out with your pals, read something good, and be good to yourself. I think my mom was right that it takes about twice as long as you were together to completely get over someone. Who knows if it's true, but it's a good way to have a positive outlook on something to look forward to. Also, you'll feel worse at night, so be careful to do something productive and healthy when you're suffering. Be well. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svgUser:Nutty Roux/sigtalk 20:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Hard to, hard to say. People are such fucked up creatures and it sounds like this woman is unsure what she wants and how to get it. My advice - break all contact and forget her. You know, love is never a one of thing. You may love her now but will you still love her in 2 years if you stay together and she continues to fuck your head? You know, there times when what needs to be done is to look after, well, number one. I have been through similar issues with crazed bitches and I always found the best way to deal with them is cut them off at the knee's, hang out friends, burn things and enjoy yourself. Ace McWickedThe Liquid Room 20:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

(unindent) We talked some more yesterday, and I'm trying to just be friends right now. It hasn't been too hard. Our interaction today was her mouthing the word hey at me during lunch and moving from her desk in front of me in our science fiction class to one desk to her right, but she did put her feet back on the seat when my feet were underneath the desk; a good sign that we may not have a really awkward relationship from now on.

I've been reading and programming a lot lately, so it's been a great excuse to study for my AP exam next week. I'm hoping to get through The Stranger and The Metamorphosis by the end of the weekend since I wont be doing anything. My only two real friends have the social skills of prematurely born lemurs, but they have at least tried to be supportive. What I have found to be a truly wonderful form of therapy is sleep deprivation. While it sounds like it would accomplish the opposite of what I want, it has actually dulled all my emotions to the point that I can make it through the day without having a sudden urge to scream.

To Doggedpersistence and Nutty Roux thanks for the musical suggestions before this I had been playing the blues on my television, mozart on our upstairs radio, and a cd that she had made for me for christmas of her singing at the same time. It was a houseful of clashing notes and self pity. Yorick 06:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Your (ex-)girlfriend seems to be of a very mercurial temperament. As Nutty Roux says, one cannot be properly involved with a person who will fly the coop the instant they cease to be "up for it." A more proper judgment of character in this area is not how they handle the best of times, but how they handle the worst of times. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 06:44, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Ahh shit son. If you want some listening assignments and a demonoid.com invite, let me know. Nutty Roux100x100 anarchy symbol.svgUser:Nutty Roux/sigtalk 14:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Oh my goodness...well Yorick, if this helps any, you're not alone (hope I'm not coming to this too late): I was about 18, and she was my first girlfriend. First anything, really. She was younger, but much more experienced, and taught me a lot. It was one of those puppy love, all-or-nothing kind of relationships. On the phone every night till 3:00AM kind of deals. But she was damaged goods. Two psychologically fucked up relationships, one with a homeless guy who sucked money away from her and her family.
Anyway, one day, she told me about some guy she'd had a fling with months before she'd met me. A friend of a friend. And really, just some heavy petting on a train in Seattle. I filed away the story and thought nothing of it. I didn't (and don't) remember why she ever even brought it up.
A few months in, she got a call from this guy. He and the mutual friend were coming up to BC for a visit. They wanted to see her, so they came over for dinner at her parents place one night. He got her alone, went out to get cheese for dinner or something...and told her he was A) dying, B) had only a year to live and C) would she please sleep with him, just once? Just one pity fuck...
Of course, after a lot of tearful deliberation, she agreed to it, and that was the end of my relationship with her (the details of the breakup are significantly stupid and teenagery, so I'll spare you).
Anyway, to make a long story short...he "got better". Within a month of them getting together. Now, I wouldn't stoop to say he was faking. No, but...so yeah.
So, it's not exactly the same deal, but I know pretty much where you are right now. But it gets easier and easier, and all of the above is really good advice. Hope that helps a little. (I have playlist recommendations as well, if you so desire!) --Purple George!YossieSpring in Fialta 15:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Does anyone know how one would go about finding somebody in a hospital in Washington, or at least checking to see if they are there? I asked her exs brother how he was doing because I was curious, and was starting to doubt if what he said was real. Apparently he's "currently in Washington, and is going to go to California to do some modeling soon." So I'm trying to find out if I can get definitive proof that she wouldn't first scream at me and do who knows what else, not that it really matters anymore. Goddammit I'm so confused. And Yossie I'll take any playlist recommendations you may have. Yorick 03:40, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

It would be shame to see this get archived and vanish. Should we move it intact to something like "RW:relationship advice"? Oh, and, Yorick, your girlfriend is fucked up, no matter how nice she can seem at times - run away as well as you can. The ex in "hospital" is a vampire/manipulator, whether the story is true or not. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:02, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
(EC) If you are looking for additional music, something like this is always good for blasting the cobwebs out of the old noggin. Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 04:16, 2 May 2009 (UTC)


Poe's Law ref[edit]

Did anyone read the new reference added to the Poe's Law article? Really interesting stuff when you read the full paper. It basically says the effect is real, you're likely to process ambiguous statements based on your political skew. That also explains Assfly taking any brown-nosing piss-taking parodist at face value. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 09:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Also the converse - Andy taking anyone who disagrees with him as being (obviously!) a liberal vandal (probably AmesG). ħumanUser talk:Human 20:37, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
We were right all along. This a great RationalWiki InsightTM. - π 10:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Wait, I'm confused. Is a great RW insight one that's derived from understanding an underlying framework and then making an appropriate observation, rather than the CP kind, which involves Andy conflating a stack of shit with a good idea? Just askin'. 70.228.38.134 15:09, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Cliff May has enraged me[edit]

I saw him on the Daily Show defending torture, and I was even more bothered by him than the interviews with scumbags like David Frum and John Bolton. He was condescending ("this has been the best debate ever!!"), wilfully disingenuous, and insistent on appearing reasonable and understanding when he was being anything but. He came up with a novel way of ignoring Jon Stewart, which was to say "you're making great points, great points!" as though he'd been listening but then utterly disregard them. His smugness and charmlessness, combined with the quite blatant immorality of his position, made him an unbearable presence on the show.

I was watching it on the website and shifted over to the discussion board, expecting to find large numbers of people being extremely rude about him in a way that would calm me down, but what do I see instead? An irrelevant discussion of the bombing of Hiroshima (brought on by one of May's many, many straw men which Stewart was unfortunately distracted by), and a bunch of whiners complaining that Stewart had been blustering and had talked over him. Jesus Christ, the guy never shut up! And he was so fucking repetitive! And he used that old bullshit what-if scenario where the Professor of Ethics has to eat ten babies or millions will die, is that justified? that's a fine position for you to take, Jon, do you want millions to die? You do, don't you, you want the deaths of millions, that's fine, just so we know.

Anyway was anyone else similarly agitated by the interview, and the subsequent flaccid response by the viewers (to be fair, I didn't read many pages - got too wound up)? I need to know I'm not alone. --seventhrib 14:47, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

While I haven't seen it, I'll try and watch it. The Daily Show is relatively well available in the UK compared to most shows similar to it. I imagine my response would be the same, anyone who endorses torture (and it's very easy to put forward silly "what-ifs" to defend it, it's possible to put forward silly "what-ifs" to defend anything) just needs to have it done to them while they're innocent, as if you justify it for the guilty you automatically have to justify it for the innocent too. Though if you want to be equally enraged by a prick talking to Jon Stewart, check out the Bill O'Reilly one! Scarlet A.pnggnostic 14:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually I found that Bill O'Reilly has a sort of feeble avuncular clownish air to him when on the Daily Show, which just about manages to make him more laughable than annoying. Both times he's been on he was pretty much humiliated ("that's not a panda!"). That's okay. It's those pseudo-intellectual scheming neo-con types that really get my goat. Ah fuck did you see when Bill Kristol was on? He is such a bastard. seventhrib 16:21, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I should go watch the whole interview - it was weird on TV because they made it obvious that a lot had to be cut, and encouraged us to go to the website for the whole thing. And, yeah, O'Reilly at least - at the very least - knows he is an entertainer, like Stewart. (On Colbert he actually said he was an "act" - Colbert: "If you're an act, then what am I?"). Kristol is a fucking nutjob beginning to end. Inner circle neocon/PNAC cabal loon. At least Stewart is good enough at his job to utterly pwn him when he's on. ħumanUser talk:Human 20:45, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Fundy quotes[edit]

This link was posted on the Main Talk Page the other day, quotes from fundamentalist Christians, and I've had a cursory glance at it. Check this: "I mean, since Atheists have no value whatsoever as human beings (they're not even human, but only inhuman animals), since Atheists are nothing but miserable Liars, Cowards and Murderers, after all, why would anybody in their right mind weep over the dead rotting corpse, or bone chips and ashes (that get mixed together with those of others from the crematory) of a worthless dead Atheist?" And they think Atheists are bad?

And another, about a student trying to convert a wiccan girl in her class; "Well, afterwards I was forced to aplologize, even though it's a sin to, so I never meant what I said. So, instead I put a copy of a Jack Chick tract in her locker about how wicca and a paganism lead to murder, rape and other horrible things because it lets the devil get inside of you. I also left a little note about how she was going to hell. I was hoping she would see the error of her ways and repent from the evil, disgusting 'religion'... Now her family (all evil, stupid, disgusting god hating wiccans) want to sue me for discrimination and creating a hostile workplace! How is that fair? She's the one who's discriminating against me because I'm one with the LORD!"

This list makes Andy Schlafly look tame. SJ Debaser 17:49, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Keep in mind though, as we pointed out before, there's a LOT of parody on that list... So it's hard to take it at face value. SirChuckBCall the FBI 18:01, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I have one on there :D EddyP 19:31, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Just about all of them makes me want to slap a 'loony' sticker on those people who make all religious people look like nutjobs. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 20:04, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Actually, it makes me want to do a bit more than that. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 20:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't the "valid" ones usually have links to believable (ie, Poe-proof) sources? ħumanUser talk:Human 20:55, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
No, entries only link to wherever the quote was taken from.
There are many "certified" fundies though, and having their quotes among the others truly exemplifies what Poe's law is about. FlareTalk 00:32, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Our artilce on FSTDT does make a big point of the fact that Poe's Law can be called on all of that. But still, for every one on there that's a piss-take there's probably one or more that are real. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 14:55, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

How do I...[edit]

...make a side-by-side article? Totnesmartin 18:39, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

RationalWiki:Side-by-Side_Template --  Nx/talk  18:44, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Thanks! Totnesmartin 19:48, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Don't forget to "announce" it when you're ready for help ;) PS, that SxS template is linked from the main "help" page, upper left... ħumanUser talk:Human 20:57, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I'm off to bed now (early start tomorrow), but if you want to check Tharsis for layout and content then Edgerunner (whose idea it was) and I would appreciate it. All improvements welcome of course. Totnesmartin 21:52, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

rant - not real query[edit]

Anyone know how to repair a lap top that got drenched on a plane ride from here to Paris... other than to drop kick it it in the Seine?(waiting for godot)--67.41.135.45 22:56, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Having suffered similarly, Scrap it, remove HD & copy to new one. ToastToastand marmite 23:05, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Did you power it up after it got wet? Clean water on it's own is not a problem you just need make sure everything is dried out thoroughly before switching on; dismantle as much as possible and put it somewhere warm and dry, be careful about using a hairdryer as you can generate static. Probably not the easiest task if you're on vacation though. You should also watch out for the battery as water and lithium don't mix. If you've switched on while wet and it's gone phfft then you've probably shorted something out on the motherboard. However, the hard disk might be salavagable if it's got valuable data on. You should be able to recover data using a USB adapter for an IDE or SATA drive. Whether the data is acessible depends on what password protection you are using you may ned the assistance of someone who knows about the registry to configure the UserID on the new machine. Alternatively you could try installing the drive into an identical machine and exporting the data once it has booted up. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 23:24, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
See her talk page: she's run it & it works intermittently. ToastToastand marmite 23:27, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, I know the data (hard drive) is safe, cause when it's come alive it works great. I'm guessing it's a battery or the computer equivalent of a "starter"... but right now, I'm just whiny.  :D mostly, cause I was in the mood for music that I can't play on the machine I"m currently on. hehe. Such is life, sleep well, Genghis. Thanks Toast. --Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot""We are all born mad. Some remain so." 23:35, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Then don't use it until it's completely dried out. I've got to hit the sack now. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 23:30, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
I'll never buy another laptop, assuming we can get or eee m/c working (see below), they seem to be unrepairable by any reasonable standarsd & very picky about their environment. ToastToastand marmite 23:42, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Being a business, or pretending to be one helps. When my laptop snuffed it earlier this year, the nice man from Dell came round and replaced the motherboard for me free of charge. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 09:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

mini computer problem[edit]

While we're on the subject: anyone linked an eee900 running linux to a Huawei E220 wireless modem? We've tried all that we can find on t'internet & no joy. ToastToastand marmite 23:32, 30 April 2009 (UTC)

Of course we have to look on t'net on desktop m/c, save a zillion web pages; disconnect; transfer modem cable; try all things on eee900: repeat until mad as hell. ToastToastand marmite 23:46, 30 April 2009 (UTC)
Sneakerware! I hate burning CDs with drivers on one machine to walk them over to another. ħumanUser talk:Human 07:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Never used that particular thingy, but all of them tend to be generic USB serial devices. You plug 'em in, you get a /dev/ttyUSBx and then you point pppd at it. Unfortunately, I really only know the console way of doing these things. I was trying to help my dad hook up to the internet from his phone when his ADSL went kapput a while back, also on an eeepc. Dictating chat scripts over the phone, not fun. The eeepc doesn't have handy things like wvdial installed by default. Eventually, it occurred to me I was being an idiot and solved the problem by buying him a copy of Joikuspot. May I recommend it for all your 3G connection needs? --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 08:57, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
(Oh, one thing which may be important from this previous experience. The eeepc didn't load the usb serial driver automatically for us. Had to manually run "modprobe usbserial" to get the serial device. Probably some hotplug inadequacy, plug in your thingy and run lsmod to see if usbserial is loaded.) --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 09:00, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
One, one warning. if by "sneakerware" you mean that little gadget that ports stuff from one puter to the next, be very careful of MS Office crap. it writes something somewhere that fucks with MS's (bullshit) "verify your software page". We have legal, legit software, with the disks, yet it will no longer let us verify. something about not putting one software on more than one machine... stupid gates. --Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot""We are all born mad. Some remain so." 17:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Wow, I get to teach a geek lesson! "Sneakerware" means running back and forth between computers with copies of stuff you need. Get it? ħumanUser talk:Human 04:12, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
I don't write cd's for small transfers (<4gb) i use SD cards. Better than USB sticks: more of em lying about) Must get this thing networked to my desktop m/c ToastToastand marmite 17:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Why does this not surprise me?[edit]

The more often you got to church, the more likely you are to approve of torture, based on this survey at least. --SpinyNorman 00:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Seeing as every church I've been in glorifies some bloke being nailed to a cross, I'm not altogether surprised. Totnesmartin 06:26, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Reminds me, yeah, without capital punishment, there'd be no christian church. ħumanUser talk:Human 06:29, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, if people feel ok to torture people believing their own religion (Inqusition), Why bother care for the infidels? Thieh 06:48, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
While finding the conclusions reasonable, it's not a very good (sizewise) survey as it says. ToastToastand marmite 13:03, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
742 ain't that bad - over here they're about 1000, which (apparently) gives a 3% margin of error. What would it be for 742? Totnesmartin 13:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
3.5%, give or take. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 14:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I was going on this:"It did not include analysis of groups other than white evangelicals, white non-Hispanic Catholics, white mainline Protestants and the religiously unaffiliated, because the sample size was too small." ToastToastand marmite 14:34, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Probably worth doing that sort of thing again. It doesn't seem remarkably conclusive to me. But surely it's probably due to Conservatism and percieved patriotism rather than religosity that would endorse torture? You just have a correllation between God-botherers and Republican-voting gun-nutting muslim/darkie-hating wingnuts who would endorse torture because it's been done to "them" rather than "us". Scarlet A.pnggnostic 15:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

How the hELL[edit]

does I'm flying get to move and protect pages, anyways? Amin7b5 01:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

  1. Pagemove is enabled if you have been a week, and made 10 edits w/o being banned
  2. Protection settings were moved with the page- he didn't change the level.

User:Theemperor/Sig/Sig 01:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks. Amin7b5 01:09, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, but I vandal binned him a few days ago. And he's still there, supposedly. The VB should strip things like moving, protecting, deleting, etc.! ħumanUser talk:Human 01:15, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Keep in mind that my page is now locked from editing- by me. --Prim arthropleura.jpg 01:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Nope, I changed the protection levels- only pagemove is disabled. User:Theemperor/Sig/Sig 01:30, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

I wanted to allow moves, but limit them too. I've disabled moves for vandals now. --  Nx/talk  07:25, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. ħumanUser talk:Human 07:27, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
PS, in case we no longer have your services some day, you are at least doccing Trent on all this stuff, because I, for one, have no idea how you are doing it? ħumanUser talk:Human 07:28, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Documentation wasn't a priority, but I'll have to sprinkle the code with comments since I'm having trouble understanding it. --  Nx/talk  07:41, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Is it possible that you could publish this code somewhere? You never know, you might get patches from other people too. Plus it'd be interesting to see it. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 09:06, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
It was on RationalBeta, but I stopped updating it. I'll upload it to my userspace. --  Nx/talk  09:11, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
User:Nx/Extensions --  Nx/talk  11:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Hey, every good techie knows that their code is self documenting. Silver Sloth 14:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
My arse do they. Every good techie knows if they come back to code they wrote three months ago, even they won't remember how the fuck it works. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 14:49, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
It'll probably take a while for them to even work out what language it's in. ToastToastand marmite 15:19, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Wimp. If the code was hard to write, it should be hard to understand!  :D --Gulik 22:45, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Waaaaay back I was doing a uni course (only part time) on computer languages; The primary instructor wanted us to have at least as much comment as program or do a complete, line for line, documentation. It came in handy for writing manuals in a later incarnation. The very"come back to it a month later" idea was used in fact: we'd write some code and leave it untouched for a few weeks & then be asked to amend it: bloody difficult without comments. ToastToastand marmite 22:54, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
(Of course, there are those who want to preserve the mystery of the arcane art by not commenting, thus making them indispensible when amendments or bugs appear) ToastToastand marmite
Nice comments! On my websites, there are a few Perl scripts that run some indispensable functions. Without detailed commenting, I could never improve them or adapt them, it all looks like gibberish to me. How about editing a script one last edited years ago? I agree on the "as much text for comments as program" philosophy. And the "make me indispensable" lack of comments for complex code should result in instant unemployment. ħumanUser talk:Human 04:16, 2 May 2009 (UTC)
The classic text on the subject is "How to write unmaintainable code" by Roedy Green, I'm sure you can find it on google. --JeevesMkII The gentleman's gentleman at the other site 21:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

The truth![edit]

Someone tell Andy! But what does this say about non-dancing Obama? --Kels 14:24, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

By Conservapedia's logic, it means Obama is toning down his socialism in public, but at night he dances to Kanye West and MC Hammer in the Oval Office to confirm his socialistic roots. SJ Debaser 14:37, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I would pay good money to see him dance to MC Hammer in the Oval Office. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 14:56, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Shouldn't that be "White Office"? Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 15:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
I'm sure this has been addressed somewhere, but i've never heard the term "white office" in all my years pretending to actually watch news. "office of teh white house" perhaps... any one familiar with this term?--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot""We are all born mad. Some remain so." 17:07, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately it's now been "fixed", probably by someone who reads this page. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 23:12, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Lol[edit]

I was testing my new sig, and one of the results read as follows "Javascap, I like bloody suicidal lemmings" What are the odds of that one?! Javasca₧ Who said anything about fair?! 14:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Inasmuchas it happened, the odds are 1:1. Now the odds of it happening again? That's a whole different kettle of fish. ToastToastand marmite 15:05, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
No one likes a smart ass when it comes to statistics :p Scarlet A.pnggnostic 15:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
Well, at least 80% of people don't. --PsyGremlinWhut? 15:35, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
But surely, you need to add "and I cannot lie" at the end of that choice. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 15:08, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
May I ask what choice I need to add "and I cannot lie" to? Javasca₧ In Soviet Russia, the tacky lunch defenestrates YOU! 15:10, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
The "I like" one... you know "I like big butts and I cannot lie..." Scarlet A.pnggnostic 15:18, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Gentlemen (and ladies) of a certain fun website, whom I all wuv vewy much.[edit]

I present (taking a leaf from SirChuck's Book of Selfless Self-Promotion) for your reading pleasure (and rotten tomatoes, etc. etc.) the latest entry into the blogosphere, a humble missive which has come about thanks to a combination of a May Day holiday (Viva Karl Marx! Viva!) and me suddenly having plenty of free time on hand. --PsyGremlinWhut? 14:58, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

WDDTY[edit]

I picked up this from Ben Goldacre's blog. Do we have an artile on it? Seems like a prime example to go with any Alt. Medicine if people are interested, but the title "What Doctors Don't Tell You" is a very good example of the "anti-expert" crowd. Scarlet A.pnggnostic 14:59, 1 May 2009 (UTC)