RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive7

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How to debate a theist[edit]

This discussion was moved to Debate:How to debate a theist‎.


I would just like to say that that thing is really dang addictive. Thanks. --"CURtalk 20:25, 8 February 2009 (EST)

Inkball is terribly biased and discriminates against the colourblind. Seriously, I can only play this crap on the easiest difficulty because when I turn the difficulty above the easiest setting, I can't tell the difference between the green balls and the... other green balls... -RedbackG'day 20:59, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Lol. Wait- how can you be colorblind- you know that your signature is black and red? But what else can they do? Make it striped, speckled, and spotted? --"CURtalk 21:02, 8 February 2009 (EST)
He can probably tell the difference between red and black. The most common form of colorblindness is an inability to differentiate between red and green.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 21:04, 8 February 2009 (EST)
The balls are: green, orange, blue, gray (neutral, doesn't matter where they go), and gold. --"CURtalk 21:06, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Then I daresay it's the green and orange that are throwing me off. As for my sig, I wouldn't know the red was there if not for the fact that I put it there myself, I can only see it if I scrutinize (I see red as being a very dark colour, and really don't see green at all). And why not with the striped, speckled and spotted balls? Other games do it, most games created by Popcap have a colourblind mode, I should take legal action against MS for not having one! The army as well while I'm at it, pricks wouldn't let me in even though I can see camouflage easier and can see better in the dark. -RedbackG'day 21:14, 8 February 2009 (EST)
I do hope you are joking: You will not get anywhere. My highest score, by the way, is 43088. --"CURtalk 21:17, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Kind of a lame thing to joke about, don't you reckon? Retracted, I thought you were talking about being colourblind, but I now realize you were yakking about the legal action crap, in which case yer, I was kidding. Here, I fail the Protanopia and Deuteranopia tests (technically speaking, I have Deuteranopia). -RedbackG'day 21:23, 8 February 2009 (EST)
I was freaking out that I couldn't see the second one until I saw the warning about LCD monitors. - User 21:34, 8 February 2009 (EST)

To get an idea of what color blindness looks like, plug some pages into http://colorfilter.wickline.org/ . Try tossing in http://www.colblindor.com/2006/03/15/color-blindness-test-by-dr-shinobu-ishihara/ as the url to recolor. Do you see an 8 or a 3 or anything at all? Look at it with different forms of colorblindness. Normal sees an 8, protran sees a 3 and deutan sees nothing. It can be useful for people working with things with color (web, games, etc...) to get an idea of possible problems. --Shagie 22:33, 8 February 2009 (EST)

Regardless of colourblindness, inkball is much better with a graphics tablet. ArmondikoVmoral 06:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I bet it is. It would be similar to the game Crayon Physics, a lot of fun even with a mouse, but it would be much more enjoyable with a tablet. I'd consider buying a tablet, but I can't really justify the cost given that I don't do a lot of graphical work, I have an unfortunate habit of colouring people green. Bah, to hell with you all and your love for things I can't enjoy, I'm just going to sit here and play Minesweeper all by myself. *BOOM!* -RedbackG'day 06:40, 9 February 2009 (EST)


Something I, as a Science Fiction addict, have wondered for a while: how long before it will be true to say: "A person or persons born now will live for 1000 years." and will this (if it does happen) be a good thing? ToastToastand marmite 22:54, 8 February 2009 (EST)

A thousand years of work in an office? No thank you O_O — Unsigned, by: Aimless Blaster / talk / contribs
Population bomb. Incredible "conservatism" as a result of not being willing to risk death. Surely this has been explored by many good authors? ħumanUser talk:Human 23:09, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Let's work on having a decent quality of life for a hundred before we get quite so ambitious, yes? --Kels 23:10, 8 February 2009 (EST)
If the more overenthusiastic pop scientists are to be believed that is now. I heard one the other day saying sometime in the next 40 to 50 years there will be a significant breakthroughs in gene therapy which will allow people to live between 500 to 5000 years. I don't know what to make of that, maybe we will all become trees or something. Accidents would definitely be the leading cause of death if you live that long. - User 23:35, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Also, The Matrix's analogy of humans as viruses would become ever more apt. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:39, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Viruses? I never caught that analogy. "I heard one the other day saying sometime in the next" few months that evolutionism would be pwned on the innertubes, as well. ħumanUser talk:Human 23:51, 8 February 2009 (EST)
Really? That was one of the more memorable lines. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:07, 9 February 2009 (EST)
...It came to me when I tried to classify your species. I realized that you're not actually mammals. Every mammal on this planet instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment, but you humans do not. You move to an area, and you multiply, and multiply, until every natural resource is consumed. The only way you can survive is to spread to another area. There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. You know what it is? A virus.
—Agent Smith, The Matrix
If you'd rather watch than read it, it's also on Youtube. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:07, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Being a computer program, Agent Smith can be forgiven for his utter ignorance of real-world ecology. Anyone who seriously thinks any mammalian species "instinctively develops a natural equilibrium with the surrounding environment" needs to ask an Australian about rabbits sometime. --Gulik 04:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)
That's why I didn't remember it, it was a rather poor line. Oh well. Thanks for pointing out the reference to me though! ħumanUser talk:Human 17:06, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The famous (?) Ray Kurzweil is your man. He's sort of well known at least and he thinks he's got it cracked. I think his basic strategy is to live sufficiently long that science will eventually learn to be able to keep him going.--Bobbing up 02:35, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Reading List[edit]

  1. Trouble With Lichen - John Wyndam (1960)

Caught on Camera...[edit]

Is anyone else watching it? MSNBC, it is 12:14 by my watch, on Feb 09. Aimless Blaster 00:17, 9 February 2009 (EST)

What is/was it? ħumanUser talk:Human 17:07, 9 February 2009 (EST)

A Confederacy of Dunces[edit]

Anyone read this book? I'm reading it right now, and it's blowing my mind. It's written in the 60s but so much of the main character reminds me off the conservapedians. The main character is a totally arrogant guy who has his own paranoid outdated christian views of the world and ignores all the evidence around him contrary to it, creating a bunch of trouble for the society around him. Everyday he writes a journal of his skewed observations and pretty much blames everything bad on the liberals. In one of the journals, he even mentioned how the only protection against STD's is abstinence. And this from the 60s, seriously. --GTac 02:03, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Déjà vu all over again. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 03:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Just looked it up on WP and there have been a couple of starts on making it a movie. The most recent attempt (2004/5) was to have Will Ferrel as Ignatius J. Reilly - When asked why the film was never made, Will Ferrell has said it is a "mystery". Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 03:29, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Yeh, for some reason everything with this book just seems doomed. The writer, John Kennedy Toole, tried to get it published but constantly got rejected. So then he killed himself.. His mother actually took the manuscript and went to a teacher called Walker Percy a couple of years after John's death and insisted he read it. The teacher recognized its brilliance and got it published. After that it won a pullitzer prize and became an instant classic.
But as you said, there have been a bunch of attempts of making it into a movie too, but each attempt seemed to be doomed. Well to be realistic, although the concept would be awesome for a movie I think it might be too difficult. The way it's written it seems impossible to leave any parts out, so that would result in a six hour movie or something. I can recommend the book though, it's pretty good, especially since you'd prolly like the kind of humor (we are here laughing at CP after all!). --GTac 03:44, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I read it ages ago. It is a funny book. But too much of it hangs on authorial voice and internal dialogue that I'm afraid any faithful transfer to the film would be long and require a narrator. wo things which could go very badly. Any unfaithful transfer or "inspired by" version would be a disappointing waste (I am legend, I robot, Virgin Suicides) On the other hand I'm quite looking forward to Revolutionary Road as well as The Road (theme: Books I like made into movies that don't ruin the book).

Very interesting (don't know book at all). Perhaps it could be turned into a 12 hour mini-series or something? And be merged with Essay:Conservapedia, the sitcom? Believe me, I have been thinking of ways to "process" WIGO CP (the source, not the article) into dialogue and scenes, and continuity and development (series versus random episodes) would be nice to have to work with. ħumanUser talk:Human 17:12, 9 February 2009 (EST)

I've got a race memory of reading it (i.e. no actual memory, just a feeling) or have I just read about it? ToastToastand marmite 17:17, 9 February 2009 (EST)
A race memory? How racist! Yeh I know, it's a typo for trace. Well, doesn't it just sound familiar cause it's so similar to Andy? Though it's very probable you read about it, it's kind of a classic (won a pullitzer and all). And I know what you mean human, I often felt like someone should write a comedy about CP too, seeing how it combines drama and unique humor in a way. But when I started reading this book, I felt like apparently someone already did it decades ago. If you see it in a bookstore, I highly recommend picking it up.
Oh, and some other details of the main character I forgot to mention before: He's a catholic, he's a momma's boy and he's a furry (yeh that one doesn't fit with Andy, but the character also reminded me of some other twisted internet individuals who frantically write blogs noone cares about). --GTac 23:27, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Heh, how do we know Andy isn't a furry in his spare time? He's never denied it... ħumanUser talk:Human 23:50, 9 February 2009 (EST)


          ∧_∧   / ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄
        /    |    \________
       /       .|     
       / "⌒ヽ |.イ |
   __ |   .ノ | || |__
  .    ノく__つ∪∪   \
    ̄ ̄ヽつ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ | | ̄
   ___________| |
    ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄ ̄| |

Nifty, now you just need a random catquote to go in the speech bubble. May I suggest something along the lines of:

  • Goatsmiley2.gif, much better than Mowse.png.
  • [[Brain]], it's what's for dinner!
  • Even from this vantage point, I see no evidence for a recent creation.
  • Sorry, I chewed all your CP socks.
  • Cats? That's not a real musical.

...I can't think of anything else, me != funny. -RedbackG'day 05:18, 9 February 2009 (EST)

The formatting needs fixed too; a fixed-width font should do it. Word evil Hoover! 11:17, 9 February 2009 (EST)


We finally got snow where I am! The whole of southern England is buried in it and we get a measly inch that'll be gone by tomorrow... Word evil Hoover! 11:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Whereabouts are you? Totnesmartin 11:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Lothian. Word evil Hoover! 11:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Is that near Aylesbury? :) Totnesmartin 11:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
No, since we didn't get much snow. Word evil Hoover! 11:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Now here is what you do... Take that snow, and make a respectable sized clump, and mound it into a snowball. Place that snowball in your freezer, and attack someone (from close range, so you can't miss!) in the middle of the summer. If the snow is too powdery to re-clump, add some water so it can stick again. Cheers! ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ Llamabean.gifLlamabean.gifLlamabean.gif
I would be happier with another snow day per year. A snow day! My kingdom for a snow day! Word evil Hoover! 11:26, 9 February 2009 (EST)
We got about 2 inches last night (Scottish Borders), but I don't think it's going to hang around for long. Worm (t | c) 11:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
We got an inch, which hasn't melted yet in places where it wasn't disturbed, and it's already getting dark. Word evil Hoover! 12:18, 9 February 2009 (EST)
we had a very light dusting (North Notts) last night, but there is quite a bit left from last week's fall. ToastToastand marmite 12:31, 9 February 2009 (EST)
It lasted a week? Word evil Hoover! 12:32, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Apparently we're getting more snow in London this evening, unless it doesn't just turn to rain and continue to piss down miserably like it's been doing all bloody day.seventhrib 12:35, 9 February 2009 (EST)
When the Met Office said there would be a "snowstorm", we got a shower in the night, and the little snow we got didn't lie. Word evil Hoover! 12:36, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah that must've been really annoying. It was amazing down here, it's the most snow I've seen in all my 18 years. With any luck climate change will cause enough more bizarre weather fluctuations that it'll happen again and Lothian won't be left out. When it happens, I suggest going out and kicking snowmen. Not when people are around or anything, but abandoned ones. I couldn't believe how much fun it was.seventhrib 12:43, 9 February 2009 (EST)
This reminds me, I need to get going since I definitely don't want to be walking home in the snow if it comes down anytime soon! :S ArmondikoVmoral 13:28, 9 February 2009 (EST)
You want snow? ToastToastand marmite 13:41, 9 February 2009 (EST)
*Cries* Word evil Hoover! 13:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)

I haven't neen going out more than I need to. I checked The BBC's 5 day weather forecast for my town and did my shopping after one lot of snow and before the next snowfall. I've got a load of snow scenes copied from Wikimedia Commons. I've also got snow paintings and photographs from other pages of Wikimedia. I'm enjoying them on my computer desktop. Proxima Centauri 14:08, 9 February 2009 (EST)

It says something about you that you'd rather look at pictures of snow than actually go out in it. Word evil Hoover! 14:16, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I was surprised to read the accounts of the English snowstorm. When we get that amount of snow here in Minneapolis, what we say is, "There was a little bit of snow last night." Mjollnir.svgListenerXTalkerX 14:57, 9 February 2009 (EST)
In Mineapolis you're prepared for snow. We're not so well prepared. London transport stopped for a day. It's luck that weather didn't happen where I live. I have health problems and I can't risk having to walk home in a blizzard. Proxima Centauri 15:21, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Ah, but if the authorities had spent money preparing for such a rare event there would be complaints. Word evil Hoover! 15:45, 9 February 2009 (EST)
It was, apparently, the heaviest snowfall for 18 years. We're just not accustomed to it, specially in the effete South East. ToastToastand marmite 15:49, 9 February 2009 (EST)
It wasn't any heavier than usual for us. Word evil Hoover! 15:52, 9 February 2009 (EST)
We always slither to a halt after an inch of snow. Something they'd hardly notice in Canada and here it's a national crisis. What a country. Totnesmartin 16:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I got the impression that you had several inches of snow. Word evil Hoover! 16:43, 9 February 2009 (EST)
No, that's just how we react. Totnesmartin 17:13, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I think this was the most snow I've seen in one fall, although I was out of town for the blizzard of '78. Moar personal details, I have a 6" layer of ice on part of my roof with a foot of snow on top of that, so inside it is raining... ħumanUser talk:Human 17:16, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I live just outside Toronto, my sister lives in Brisbane and has been there for 13 years. I send her pictures every winter, just so she won't come back.... Sightblinder 20:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Here's my snow: (about 830 am 5/feb ) Didn't see it myself in all its glory but here it is, for what it's worth. ToastToastand marmite 22:19, 9 February 2009 (EST)
S80 Snow 09 02 05.jpgS80 Priory Snow09 02 05.jpg.
Gee, there's white stuff on the ground! People appear to be able to walk just fine ;) ħumanUser talk:Human
Snow Pics, eh? My Driveway and my deck, not to mention the stupid plow .... Sightblinder 22:54, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I start plowing my parking lot about 30 feet (4 km) onto the field. Some winters, I start losing parking lot as it piles up. The town road agent uses my parking lot to turn his grader around in, not sure what he's doing, but I think it has something to do with keeping the road "two lanes wide". Eh, but it ain't bad here, really. Most we've ever seen is about 8 feet (27 meters) in one winter. Hell, out in the plains, they get 8 foot (960 meters) snowfalls. (PS, someone might want to check my metrick conversions). ħumanUser talk:Human 23:23, 9 February 2009 (EST)


Notwithstanding the snark at our Facebook "article", does anyone want to join their RationalWiki group? They have no goats and only one admin. Totnesmartin 17:17, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Facebook is the social networking site for people with low reading comprehension skills (sadly, this includes my wife). Z3rotalk 17:30, 9 February 2009 (EST)
(is a bit miffed) Totnesmartin 17:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)
a cruel jab at facebookers, there. What's the social networking site for the literate?seventhrib 18:11, 9 February 2009 (EST)
They don't have one, they're busy reading books : ) Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 18:16, 9 February 2009 (EST)
What RA said. Z3rotalk 18:17, 9 February 2009 (EST)
(sulks off to Livejournal) Totnesmartin 18:27, 9 February 2009 (EST)
I am soooooo there... I'm addicted to the place...... Sightblinder 18:39, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Um.... Yeah, I'll take Facebook over ANY of the alternatives any day. SirChuckBObama/Biden? 2012 12:15, 10 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah, like Twitter? "Let's make a site that's exactly like facebook but with all the crap removed. I.e., everything bar the status updates." I mean, why? ArmondikoVmoral 04:54, 17 February 2009 (EST)

J-Witness, reprezent![edit]

Scary thing sometimes, when guys in shirts and ties and long coats carrying magazines walk up to your door.... So I gave the pair that rang my doorbell yesterday the "I respect your right to believe what you believe, I'm just asking you to do the same for me" (leaving out the 'so get the HELL away from my front door' part). Wasn't good enough for one of them - starts telling me that verse blah blah of the bible commands them to do this. But here's the kicker - his homey that was with him put his hand on the guys shoulder and says "stop... he's already made his point and we should respect it and move on". I just about shit a brick on the spot. They said thank you, and moved on. I have Faith in the world again.

Thank you for listening to my rambling. Come again. Sightblinder 20:42, 9 February 2009 (EST)

Will you "be here all week"? ħumanUser talk:Human 23:51, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Or here and weak... one or the other..... Thanks and Good Night! Sightblinder 23:56, 9 February 2009 (EST)
Jehovah's Witnesses have never been anything but polite to me. Have you often had issues?--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 06:31, 10 February 2009 (EST)
the last two to visit me were a woman and her six-year-old son, who just happened to be in the area on holiday. If that's what JW's kid's holidays are like I pity them. Totnesmartin 11:50, 10 February 2009 (EST)
I live down the street from a Kingdom hall, so it's at least a few times a month that they come a knockin'..... I wouldn't have any problem at all if they just left when I (always politely) say no thanks, but that never works. I always get the God commands us line, and I'm at the door for another 2 minutes trying to find a nice way to shoo them off. A lot of kids show up at our door with the parents as well, but I can't say that I'm in a holiday area... :) Was the kid at least wearing mouse ears or something? Sightblinder 18:06, 10 February 2009 (EST)
"No trespassin'! Violeters will git shot, survivors will git shot 'gain!". (I actually saw that sign, which worries me. Redneck emphasis mine.) ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ Llamabean.gifLlamabean.gifLlamabean.gif


There are one or two users (mostly fairly recent) who do not appear to know how to behave in adult company. I would suggest that a new namespace "Kindergarten" be created for them to be infantile in. If you ndon't know to whom I am referring, then you've either not been around much lately or you're one of the infants. — Unsigned, by: Toast / talk / contribs

I think I might be an infant, either that or I have never been good at these coded worded things. - User 20:37, 10 February 2009 (EST)
@Toast: Can I choose the curtains? Mei 20:39, 10 February 2009 (EST)
As long as they match the rug. ħumanUser talk:Human 22:12, 10 February 2009 (EST)
What rug? ;) Mei 22:21, 10 February 2009 (EST)
It has often been suggested that they could have the old server all to themselves on the condition they don't come back. - User 20:41, 10 February 2009 (EST)
If you are referring to me. . . (yes, it's paranoid. It is also Toast.) --"CURtalk 21:25, 10 February 2009 (EST)
→Mei. You can be the curtains. → CUR. If the cap fits ... ToastToastand marmite 21:34, 10 February 2009 (EST)
I'd really rather not. Mei 21:37, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Yes, Toast. Actually I was thinking something rather similar.--Bobbing up 02:46, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Maybe we need a snug for us grumpy old atheists. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 08:28, 11 February 2009 (EST)
We already have a place to go crazy in - the old server. Word evil Hoover! 11:28, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Sorry to say, but most veiled references go over my head, though I gather that one of the two users is CUR. Who's the other one? Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 16:55, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Mei, probably. Word evil Hoover! 16:56, 11 February 2009 (EST)
What did I do this time? What? I've changed. Haven't you noticed by now? I've been trying to be constructive- but it is difficult to keep out of HCM when people are talking about expelling me from here. I mean, honestly. --"CURtalk 16:58, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I don't think it's you. Word evil Hoover! 17:00, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Perhaps I'm not as bad as I think I am—I almost, almost asked if Mei was the other one, but I decided to play it safe in case I was wrong. Star of David.png Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 17:04, 11 February 2009 (EST)


Perhaps we could have something like WikiProjects? For example, a fun one, a Conservapedia one, a politics one, a science one, a biology one, etc? --"CURtalk 21:33, 10 February 2009 (EST)

What, do you need something useful to do? I would suggest alphabetizing categories and see alsos... ħumanUser talk:Human
Alas. Organising things is never as alluring as planning to organise things. Mei 21:43, 10 February 2009 (EST)
I am now the only member of RationalWikiProject: Animals. --"CURtalk 22:01, 10 February 2009 (EST)
This is somewhere at the bottom of my to do list. Why don't you look at what I was proposing to propose and see if you can help CUR and Mei? - User 22:03, 10 February 2009 (EST)

Time for another boycott?[edit]

We have not had a mass boycott of CP for a while, and I am thinking we might as well agree on some dates so we can, again, measure the traffic to CP. Thoughts? ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ Llamabean.gifLlamabean.gifLlamabean.gif

As always, I agree. And Black History Month is such a good time! How about V-Day to P-Day? ħumanUser talk:Human 16:31, 11 February 2009 (EST)
A good idea. It's been slow as hell lately, anyway. Neveruse513 16:32, 11 February 2009 (EST)
It's Darwin's birthday. Let's celebrate. Everybody: stay off CP. Go instead and make RW better. I even started RationalWiki:Zoology project. --"CURtalk 16:34, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Darwin's birthday should either be mass troll or mass exodus. We need to decide and make a prominent announcement. Neveruse513 16:35, 11 February 2009 (EST)
(EC x 3) Yes. & It would be a good opportunity to explore other areas of focus &/or do some good work on other parts of RationalWiki. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 16:35, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I am happy either way. I am just a jolly sort of person in general you see. Ace McWickedRevolt 16:45, 11 February 2009 (EST)
CP has been pretty damn boring of late. Andy's Jesus invented comedy brightened the landscape only briefly. It's probably the best time for a boycott, unless they go and do something awesomely stupid in the next few days. --JeevesMkII 17:42, 11 February 2009 (EST)
I'm down just as long as the boycott doesn't result in CUR's zoology project creating chaos. Z3rotalk 17:44, 11 February 2009 (EST)
It won't. I hope by adding evolutionary facts to the felidae article, it will gain more of a hold. --"CURtalk 17:53, 11 February 2009 (EST)
You know CUR it has taken me a while to work out who you remind me of but I have finally worked it out, you are our Ken. - User 18:47, 11 February 2009 (EST)
More of a hold here. As in, people won't be plotting its assination. I am not like Ken. --"CURtalk 18:49, 11 February 2009 (EST)
You like cheetahs, you can't argue, you obsess about your few articles and think anyone else cares about them, you have imaginary enemies you think you are beating, you annoy everyone else on your wiki, you criticise others spelling when you can't spell yourself, you are Ken. - User 18:52, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Ken likes cheetahs? And I stopped critizing other people's spelling. And what imaginary enemies? Red links? Those were jokes. As for arguing, I can do it quite well, as long as I stay out of HCM. Unfortunately, that means arguing here is nearly impossible. And if I am Ken, then you are. . . let's see, how about Karajou? No. Hmm. . . The fact is, Ken is a troll obsessed with hating minorites and getting google hits. I am a WikiOgre who sometimes makes a pet article, and attempts to keep it intact, who tolerates minorities. . . yeah, I see a lot of similarities. --"CURtalk 18:57, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Imaginary enemies = Fall down. I can do it quite well = Fail. Mei 19:06, 11 February 2009 (EST)

(UNDENT) A Wikiogre is simply another name for a troll. TheoryOfPractice 19:11, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Due to me thinking I'm spending far too much time arguing with strangers on the internet rather than interacting with my real peeps, I'm glad of any excuse to stop. It's like a bad sickness, and causes me dreadfuli eyestrain and angrification. And I'll probably lay off the RW cookies too while I'm at it. Have a good time everyone! DogP 18:08, 11 February 2009 (EST)

I like the idea of a boycott, can I flick the switch? - User 18:48, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Make it so, Mr Pi. ToastToastand marmite 18:58, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Fire the boycott guns (hey, I'm not the one who started with the Star-Trek references. I think.) --"CURtalk 18:59, 11 February 2009 (EST)

I totally don't "get" this whole boycott nonsense. The idea that a reasonable response to "we enjoy poking and watching CP and snarking about it is popular" is "let's stop doing the thing we enjoy" seems utterly stupid to me. Aside from the fact that other than a little traffic dip which we already know happens, no need to prove it for a fifth time or whatever there's no particular impact on CP, then why bother? I see it was already decided, so I guess it's my time to say "fuck you all, I'm not boycotting shit". I've given reasons plenty of times in the past why I think it's pointless and boring to do these boycotts, so you can go find the LAST BLOODY TIME we went round this particular non-fun ride. --Kels 19:17, 11 February 2009 (EST)

I actually completely agree with you Kels. It doesn't achieve anything - we're merely a tiny drip in their traffic, and so what,etc. I'm doing it for a rest from the infernal interweb machine though, not any goddam principle. nd yes, you should go and have as much fun there as you like. Hell, someone has to keep an eye on the lulz. Imagine if we missed an all-time classic? DogP 20:17, 11 February 2009 (EST)
We just had one and they only serve to prove what we already know - most of CP's traffic comes from us. I'm boycotting the boycott (although I do have my reasons for doing so). --PsyGremlinWhut? 02:47, 12 February 2009 (EST)
You have put in to much work on CPalmer to give up now. - User 04:57, 12 February 2009 (EST)

We've already had one (forced) boycott this year, when they changed servers and went down for a week. As I recall, a lot of people here ended up bored as hell. Why the rush for another one? Totnesmartin 05:16, 12 February 2009 (EST)

A bit of help would be nice...[edit]

Seeing as to how I have protanopia, I was wondering if anyone would be kind enough to help me change my user page into blue, Seeing a yellow flag and a yellow-esq Buddha userbox is rather frusturating. Can I ask someone to help me out? Aimless Blaster 18:16, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Which thing(s) should be blue? ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:51, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Think I sorted it, Ermine. ToastToastand marmite 18:57, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Yes, and I thank you for doing so. Could you tell me if the flag looks as described in the description? Aimless Blaster 18:58, 11 February 2009 (EST)
Yes it does. --"CURtalk 19:00, 11 February 2009 (EST)
It's a "rainbow" (ish) top → bottom. ToastToastand marmite 19:02, 11 February 2009 (EST)


How do you upload sound files? I have one I would like to upload, is there a special page? Or just something extra on the upload image page?The EmperorKneel before Zod! 21:24, 11 February 2009 (EST)

You strangely can't, although you can upload flv files like those used on youtube. There is an ogg extension which if you ask Trent nicely enough he might install for you. Look at the code for the jukebox to see how to include files already on the net. - User 21:27, 11 February 2009 (EST)
(EC) I don't think we can host sound files at RW, although the flashmp3 player (like at the top of this screen) can play mp3s which are hosted elsewhere. There are sites that let you host files for free, but they usually have an annoying catch, like you have to log into them every month or your files get deleted. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 21:29, 11 February 2009 (EST)

Gallup poll: Fewer than 4 in 10 US Americans believe in evolution...[edit]

America, what the fuck is wrong with you? TheoryOfPractice 10:30, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Literally everything. I should know, I live here. --"CURtalk 16:24, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Obviously, Ken's articles at CP are having their desired effect. Watch out the rest of the world! Bondurant 10:42, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Encouragingly it improves (a lot) with education. Although it's a bit surprising that 34% don't spontaneously associate Darwins's name with evolution.--Rationalist 10:45, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Encouragingly it improves (a lot) with education. Well--it tops 50% (barely--within the margin of error) with college grads (great, 47% of my students who go on to graduate won't believe in evolution...) and even at postgraduate degree levels (and how many Americans have those?), more than 1 in 4 still don't buy evolution. How is this possible? TheoryOfPractice 11:01, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I was listening to the most recent BBC4 News Quiz (love that show) and apparently there's a similar figure quoted for the UK. Again, I think what these surveys don't reveal is that not believing in evolution does not automatically equal belief in a creator. Often it's a shrug of the shoulders and "I dunno". --PsyGremlinWhut? 11:09, 12 February 2009 (EST)
You're prolly somewhat right there--but it's loaded in a particular way...you might ask me about some scientific thing or another and get a blank stare, (damned if I can think of an example now...) but I'm not sure it would have the same valance as not believing in evolution given the discourse that surrounds that particular question...TheoryOfPractice 11:13, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I guess you could say that "not believing in X" does not mean "believing in not X". I'd put it in Kripke semantics if I could remember how that worked. --GTac 14:17, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I wish they added a geographic component to the analysis. It would help explain a whole lot. Neveruse513 14:23, 12 February 2009 (EST)
In Soviet Russia, evolution believes in you...... I don't know why I found that funny, but I did. SirChuckBObama/Biden? 2012 14:35, 12 February 2009 (EST)

I wish they added a geographic component to the analysis. It would help explain a whole lot. I don't know--I'm really interested in the ways in which (see our Jesusland article and the discussion on the talk page which sort of touches on this...)the ways in which particular classes of Americans try to "other" their fellow citizens by enframing class and educational differences in a way that ties them to geography, thereby disavowing/marginalising huge parts of the population in a way that echoes racilaist thought: They're from "over there," not "here," so their situation has less to do with me.... I'd really be more interested in how income differences figure into this (Andrew Layton Schlafly notwithstanding...). TheoryOfPractice 14:57, 12 February 2009 (EST)

you from 'round here? Neveruse513 14:59, 12 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)I've lived in the US for only a few months. The midwest, a real liberal bubble of a college town. But I have friends from all over the country--even real Red states in the deep South--that would trouble the idea that this kind if ignorance is tied to geography and would bolster an argument that class and unequal opportunity to get a good education have a lot to do with this kind of ignorance...Originally I'm from Soviet Canuckistan. TheoryOfPractice 15:03, 12 February 2009 (EST)
The bible belt is a very real thing and the differences can be stark. A midwest, liberal bubble of a college town? Is it in OH? Neveruse513 15:06, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I don't doubt the reality of the Bible Belt--what I'm interested in is things like income differences between the Bible Belt and the rest of the country, and the ways in which those differences might work to explain the very existence of the Bilbe Belt--and the role of income differences within and outside the Bible Belt and the relationship to education and belief in evolution...TheoryOfPractice 15:14, 12 February 2009 (EST)
That would be some interesting research. I think as much as it could be influenced by those factors, it could all easily be trumped by the hereditary nature of religion in those parts of the country. Neveruse513 15:19, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I'd also like to see the actual survey. It may have had one of those "I have doubts about the theory of evolution" type of questions where most people check the box, then, omg, noone believes in evolution! Z3rotalk 15:00, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Definitely always worth checking the actual questions. It's like the controversy between what the population of atheists actually is; it skews depending on what's being asked. Not to mention where they ask it. Reccently one of the local student newpapers said no one knows who the Students Union people are. Now, where did they do this survey? Of people walking in/out of the actual student center building or in a bar late at night amongst mostly drunk first year undergrads? Sampling is a bitch... ArmondikoVmoral 15:03, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Those are the actual questions as read to the person being surveyed. Sometimes Gallup will have different wording and it will say on that page (Rotate: phrasing 1, phrasing 2...). Neveruse513 15:13, 12 February 2009 (EST)
The survey was a thousand people. Somebody who knows statistics tell me whether that's a decent sample size. It means an average of twenty per state, which doesn't sound like many at all, but I guess that's probably the wrong way of looking at it. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 15:06, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Gallup usually does between 1 and 2 thousand and it's plenty good for teh sampling size. Neveruse513 15:07, 12 February 2009 (EST)
1000-ish is fine. See here, at the bottom for an explanation. Sterilewalkie-talkie 15:21, 12 February 2009 (EST)

While I think the survey asked largely "unloaded" questions (many such do not, or set up the evo question with some religious ones), the word "believe" would technically make me say "no". I don't believe in the TOE - I think it is an incredibly strong and useful explanation of how the forms of life on earth (and perhaps elsewhere) develop and change over time. But of course if I was polled, I'd say "yes", in order to be "counted" properly. Back in the day, I altered CP's big bang and evo userboxes to say "thinks" instead of "believes", you'll see they are still that way here (we imported them on RW1 and reloaded them after the NotBK). ħumanUser talk:Human 17:04, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Maybe I just hang out with the right people, but that poll does not reflect the Denver area that I know. There is no way that amongst my collection of friends and acquaintances, 40% or less believe in evolution. Almost everyone I know takes evolution for granted, though many do say things like "god assisted it" (whatever that means) or "god started it". --Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"«Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta. V.Nabokov» 17:17, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I suspect its who you hang out with. In contrast, I present Andrew Schlafly... ħumanUser talk:Human 17:52, 12 February 2009 (EST)

The headline figures of this poll are a bit misleading. If you look at who does NOT believe in evolution then it's about 28% for those without a college degreee and down to 11% for post-grads. There's a large middle ground who have no opinion either way, I suspect because they can't reconcile their religious beliefs with the science and muddle through by ignoring it. When these polls are conducted I am always amazed at the depth of general ignorance. There was an Ozzie TV clip featured a couple of months ago and most of the person-in-the-street Americans interviewed (it may have been edited for dramatic effect) couldn't locate most foreign countries on a map of the world. While we here may focus a lot on evolution, largely because of CP's contrary stance, I'm sure the greater populace at large don't think about it much because it doesn't crop up in their everyday lives. What if the Gallup headline was rewritten to "Fewer than 3 in 10 Americans deny evolution". Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 23:21, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Very good point. How about "Fewer than 3 in 10 Americans stupid enough to deny evolution!"? Makes them look better! ħumanUser talk:Human 23:53, 12 February 2009 (EST)

Watchlist question[edit]

In regards to a conversation at another part of this website, here's a question: who follows RW updates via their watchlist, even if only a bit? How do people catch up with overnight edits? Totnesmartin 15:46, 12 February 2009 (EST)

I put almost everything I edit on my watchlist. Pathetic. --"CURtalk 16:17, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Meanwhile I have nothing except my user page and user talk page on my watchlist. Word evil Hoover! 16:19, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I look at it if I've been away for a couple of days or more. Not sure if having everything you've edited on there is pathetic, I do that at Wikipedia. Totnesmartin 16:27, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I really only have my user page and any articles I created, which believe me isn't many. Occasionally I'll add articles that I have altered in a substantial way (that is to say, one or two whole sections) just to see if anyone has objected to my alterations and reverted, but I tend to take those out after a few days. I find that any major developments that would attract my attention seem to occupy a large chunk of the recent changes list, so I tend to keep up that way. -RedbackG'day 16:29, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I use my watchlist as my entry point, since it only lists things people have edited once. Sometimes I look at RC, but rarely (if I'm bored, perhaps?). It's not to hard to tab through all the diffs that look interesting. I have "add to watchlist" set automatically upon editing. ħumanUser talk:Human 16:58, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I use my watchlist rather heavily, esp. w/ Talk:WIGO. PubliusTalk 19:45, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I have recent changes bookmarked & use it a lot to tell what's going on at any time. I use my watchlist too, but I tend to add everything I've edited at some point & hence end up with loads of pages that I can't even remember why I'm watching. Every so ofen I have to trim it down to a few things I really care about. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 20:47, 12 February 2009 (EST)
I live by my Watchlist and RC. EVerything I edit goes into the watchlist. That's annoying, but hey. DogP 03:12, 13 February 2009 (EST)

Something better than Alexa?[edit]

Does anyone know of a similar tool that is less biased towards people who just use the programs their computer came loaded with (i.e., IE)? Surely Google by now has something that tracks traffic on teh webbies? ħumanUser talk:Human 17:06, 12 February 2009 (EST)

I don't know if it's better, but there is quantcast. Sterilewalkie-talkie 17:29, 12 February 2009 (EST)
Quantcast only counts USians. - User 17:34, 12 February 2009 (EST)
We could always ask Trent very nicely. Word evil Hoover! 09:14, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Darwinian Honorific[edit]

This is as good a place as any to ask. Did Darwin ever receive/earn/win in a raffle any kind of prenomial, specifically Doctor? This is merely a matter of semantics for me. CorryBaby, you got a stew going. 23:43, 12 February 2009 (EST)

The Wikipedia article on Darwin only says he had a Bachelor of Arts degree. (Unless I missed something.) --Gulik 16:54, 13 February 2009 (EST)
He was going to go into medicine at Cambridge, if I remember correctly (and I just did a paper on him, so my memory should be fairly accurate). --"CURtalk 16:58, 13 February 2009 (EST)
That's not quite what this says. A summary: he studied medicine for a bit at Edinburgh but quit that, then came to Cambridge to study to become a member of the clergy but ended up becoming interested in Natural History instead. I can't see anywhere suggesting he received a doctorate, though he was elected an FRS. alt 19:24, 13 February 2009 (EST)
I thought it was either Edinburgh or Cambridge, and decided on Cambridge. Rusty-spotted memory. --"CURtalk 19:25, 13 February 2009 (EST)
Oh, and as he has a BA from Cambridge he almost certainly has a (quasi-fake) MA from Cambridge too. </pedant> alt 19:30, 13 February 2009 (EST)
PhD were as rear as rocking horse shit in Darwin's days, it has only been in the last 60 years everyone gets one. The most senior professor in our department's PhD supervisor didn't have a PhD. - User 20:26, 13 February 2009 (EST)
Did he ever even get knighted or anything? ħumanUser talk:Human 17:32, 15 February 2009 (EST)

Man in the street: "Andy Walking"[edit]

"There was an Ozzie TV clip featured a couple of months ago and most of the person-in-the-street Americans interviewed (it may have been edited for dramatic effect) couldn't locate most foreign countries on a map of the world."

Yeah, they usually are. Here's the "before" picture: [1] :) --Marty 01:59, 13 February 2009 (EST)

RationalWiki:What is going on at RW?[edit]

Why were you offline? Proxima Centauri 13:16, 13 February 2009 (EST)

Maybe Trent spilt some coffee on the server :p ArmondikoVmoral 13:20, 13 February 2009 (EST)
I just posted that theory on the facebook RW group. Maybe he was channelling Andy. Totnesmartin 13:36, 13 February 2009 (EST)


I don't know about the Towns, Cities, and communities where each of you are, but Denver is in a world of hurt. I was just having lunch (at 10 am) and saw 4 guys downing their bloody mary's and having a great time. Turns out, they'd been their since receiving their pink slips first thing in the morning. What's most scary? They were not all from the same company. Hope you all are weathering any storm you are seeing.--Sun mowse.pngEn attendant Godot"«Lo-lee-ta: the tip of the tongue taking a trip of three steps down the palate to tap, at three, on the teeth. Lo. Lee. Ta. V.Nabokov» 17:02, 13 February 2009 (EST)

I work for that Juggernaut known as Wal-Mart, and everyone is just devestated that we had laysoffs down there in the States... I think that everyone up here just thought that we were immune somehow.... Sightblinder 18:47, 13 February 2009 (EST)
I nearly got laid off from school. The recession isn't damaging us in Jesusland as much- but not because of a holy blessing. Rather, we don't have enough of an economy to be damaged. Yet. --"CURtalk 18:49, 13 February 2009 (EST)
It is pretty scary when Rite Aid, Six Flags, Krispy Kreme, and Blockbuster might go under. Sterilewalkie-talkie 09:20, 14 February 2009 (EST)
You're in Denver? Boulder, here. I've been out of work for almost a whole year, now--thank "Bob" my last job paid well. On the bright side, it looks like the Dems managed to hold enough Republicans' children hostage to force the stimulus package though--let's just hope it works. --Gulik 19:37, 14 February 2009 (EST)
I am a lifeguard, so I have a very minimal risk of being axed. I really hope that anyone who got fired manages to get a job very soon. ĵ₳¥ášÇ♠ʘ Llamabean.gifLlamabean.gifLlamabean.gif
As one of the sillycon valley types, I've been "affected". Last week I found that I was "affected" a bit more - my job is on its way to India. I get to stick around until mid June to train them what I do. The highlights of my days are the faces on the directors (my manger knows what I do) when they realize it will take 3-4 people to fill what I do and that 11 years of knowledge of systems that are similarly aged is not something that moves from person to person easily. Job hunting, I don't need to worry about until mid fall (severance won't run out until January) - but I am looking. Academia doesn't seem to be outsourcing, and there is a real option/path for becoming a highschool computer teacher. --Shagie
Our mines have laid off close to 10000 workers already, and it's starting to filter through to other industries - car makers have about 4000 jobs on the line and now the finance houses are starting to retrench too - and we escaped the worst of the credit crunch. Hope all those who have been given the shove find work soon! --PsyGremlinWhut? 15:52, 16 February 2009 (EST)
Sorry to hear that Shagie (and all the others who are affected by the downturn). My own contract runs until the end of the year, after that it is unknown. The department still want to keep me but top management is saying that consultants are on their way out. Four more years of employment would have probably seen me through to retirement, but it depends what happens in the financial world for my SIPP investments - equivalent to a US 401K. The current global situation is really quite frightening, countries could experience either deflation or hyper-inflation and the investment decisions you need to make for each are poles apart. Governments may try to turn things round but it is the herd reaction of the masses that will determine the outcome. There is a general stampede but the direction that the herd are going in can be turned round like something out of Rawhide. I have been anticipating this crunch for more than twenty years ever since I read Bob Beckman's The Downwave. He based his forecast on Kondriatev cycles of about 55-60 years as well as Elliot wave theory. Elliot waves have a generalised five-point pattern but can often be over-extended into a super 7-point wave where the final rise is truly massive. There should have been a crash that eliminated the build up of debt in the mid-eighties, about 55-60 years after the 1929 debacle, but government intervention in most countries (Japan being a notable exception) prevented that and gave rise to the current property and debt bubble. As with any "bubble" if you inflate it too much it bursts and that happens in an instant whereas the build up can be slow and extended over many years. These crises can only be solved by eliminating the build up of debt. This is normally accomplished through deflationary environment where "cash is king". But like Germany in the 20's it is possible to go the other way and achieve elimination of debt by hyperinflation so that the currency collapses and a new one has to be created. My pop economics overview suggests that hyperinflation ends with a fascist solution while deflation is ended with socialism - this is just a flash insight and I would need to investigate further to justify the thesis. For the last six years I have been riding gold up from $325/oz and hope that it continues all the way up to $3000 or maybe even $5000. When the nightly news reports that people are queuing up to sell their jewellery then I know it will be time to get out. Whether it will be enough to provide me with an adequate pension will be a matter of luck. Many people have poo-pooed gold as a barbarian relic but it's scarcity gives it an intrinsic value as a medium of exchange unlike fiat paper money which can be generated at the flick of a printer's switch. (An interesting fact is that virtually all of the gold that has ever been mined is still in existence and owned. All the mined gold in the word would only occupy a cube equivalent to the length of a tennis court.) I'm thankful that my "conservative" financial views have meant that I never held a mortgage longer than five years and own my (modest) house outright. I could have got a bigger house but I have always been debt-adverse and never taken on more than I could reasonably afford. If the shit really hits the fan for me personally then I will be doing a lot more gardening. I don't wish to sound smug about this but I have been building up to this over a working lifetime of 36 years and have been influenced by the post World War II mentality of self-reliance and financial prudence. I feel sorry for those much younger than me for whom this an incredible culture shock. Redchuck.gif ГенгисOur ignorance is God; what we know is science. 16:50, 16 February 2009 (EST)


What's the template/finagle here for creating columns at RW? I'm trying to get this looking like this. Totnesmartin 15:52, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Do what I always do; go on the page you like, hit edit, then copy the formatting for the page you want. Z3rotalk 16:41, 14 February 2009 (EST)
I was trying to avoid two things: 1)duplicating something already here; 2) anything involving actual work. Totnesmartin 16:47, 14 February 2009 (EST)
Do you want to get those template and copy them here? - User 18:57, 14 February 2009 (EST)
I took a quick look at the col-begin-small one, or whatever it was called, and, luckily, it doesn't appear to depend on 23 other templates like many at WP do, so it might be quite easy to port over. I didn't check the "col2" etc. ones though. Oh, there is a DPL thing that might work for you, example is at the RationalWiki:smileys page. ħumanUser talk:Human 19:24, 14 February 2009 (EST)

Slow day[edit]

RationalWiki seems to be virtually dead this weekend. Is this just the effect of the CP boycott or is there some big real world event going on that I've failed to notice? Or are people just offline "building a case" against each other? Laughing.gif Seriously, if the boycott is keeping people away from RW this much, we should probably rethink the idea. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:06, 14 February 2009 (EST)

I expect a lot of activity- the therian talk page has been reactivated. I'm on extreme caution with occainsionally (speling) toe dips. --"CURtalk 18:07, 14 February 2009 (EST)
Note the date - maybe people are off spooning with their true loves, or are having the day off the internet to gain spooning credits. Or maybe they're all off to the rugby. Totnesmartin 18:39, 14 February 2009 (EST)
That's a good point. Silly of me not to notice. ŴêâŝêîôîďWeaselly.jpgMethinks it is a Weasel 18:45, 14 February 2009 (EST)
As the boycott has almost been universally ignored I think people are just busy. - User 18:55, 14 February 2009 (EST)
I barely even look at CP anymore, boycott or no.... I've been reading through the 4,734 valentines my kids made for me... :) Sightblinder 18:58, 14 February 2009 (EST)
Valentine's Day, indeed. No time to be on here yesterday while I was scuffling around dipping strawberries into chocolate and whatnot.--Tom Moorefiat justitia ruat coelum 02:28, 15 February 2009 (EST)

CP is more interesting than RW at present. We need to drop the boycott. DogP 13:14, 15 February 2009 (EST)