RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive368

This is an archive page, last updated 10 September 2020. Please do not make edits to this page.

Archives for this talk page:

<1>, <2>, <3>, <4>, <5>, <6>, <7>, <8>, <9>, <10>, <11>, <12>, <13>, <14>, <15>, <16>, <17>, <18>, <19>, <20>, <21>, <22>, <23>, <24>, <25>, <26>, <27>, <28>, <29>, <30>, <31>, <32>, <33>, <34>, <35>, <36>, <37>, <38>, <39>, <40>, <41>, <42>, <43>, <44>, <45>, <46>, <47>, <48>, <49>, <50>, <51>, <52>, <53>, <54>, <55>, <56>, <57>, <58>, <59>, <60>, <61>, <62>, <63>, <64>, <65>, <66>, <67>, <68>, <69>, <70>, <71>, <72>, <73>, <74>, <75>, <76>, <77>, <78>, <79>, <80>, <81>, <82>, <83>, <84>, <85>, <86>, <87>, <88>, <89>, <90>, <91>, <92>, <93>, <94>, <95>, <96>, <97>, <98>, <99>, <100>, <101>, <102>, <103>, <104>, <105>, <106>, <107>, <108>, <109>, <110>, <111>, <112>, <113>, <114>, <115>, <116>, <117>, <118>, <119>, <120>, <121>, <122>, <123>, <124>, <125>, <126>, <127>, <128>, <129>, <130>, <131>, <132>, <133>, <134>, <135>, <136>, <137>, <138>, <139>, <140>, <141>, <142>, <143>, <144>, <145>, <146>, <147>, <148>, <149>, <150>, <151>, <152>, <153>, <154>, <155>, <156>, <157>, <158>, <159>, <160>, <161>, <162>, <163>, <164>, <165>, <166>, <167>, <168>, <169>, <170>, <171>, <172>, <173>, <174>, <175>, <176>, <177>, <178>, <179>, <180>, <181>, <182>, <183>, <184>, <185>, <186>, <187>, <188>, <189>, <190>, <191>, <192>, <193>, <194>, <195>, <196>, <197>, <198>, <199>, <200>, <201>, <202>, <203>, <204>, <205>, <206>, <207>, <208>, <209>, <210>, <211>, <212>, <213>, <214>, <215>, <216>, <217>, <218>, <219>, <220>, <221>, <222>, <223>, <224>, <224½>, <225>, <226>, <227>, <228>, <229>, <230>, <231>, <232>, <233>, <234>, <235>, <236>, <237>, <238>, <239>, <240>, <241>, <242>, <243>, <244>, <245>, <246>, <247>, <248>, <249>, <250>, <251>, <252>, <253>, <254>, <255>, <256>, <257>, <258>, <259>, <260>, <261>, <262>, <263>, <264>, <265>, <266>, <267>, <268>, <269>, <270>, <271>, <272>, <273>, <274>, <275>, <276>, <277>, <278>, <279>, <280>, <281>, <282>, <283>, <284>, <285>, <286>, <287>, <288>, <289>, <290>, <291>, <292>, <293>, <294>, <295>, <296>, <297>, <298>, <299>, <300>, <301>, <302>, <303>, <304>, <305>, <306>, <307>, <308>, <309>, <310>, <311>, <312>, <313>, <314>, <315>, <316>, <317>, <318>, <319>, <320>, <321>, <322>, <323>, <324>, <325>, <326>, <327>, <328>, <329>, <330>, <331>, <332>, <333>, <334>, <335>, <336>, <337>, <338>, <339>, <340>, <341>, <342>, <343>, <344>, <345>, <346>, <347>, <348>, <349>, <350>, <351>, <352>, <353>, <354>, <355>, <356>, <357>, <358>, <359>, <360>, <361>, <362>, <363>, <364>, <365>, <366>, <367>, <369>, <370>, <371>, <372>, <373>, <374>, <375>, <376>, <377>, <378>, <379>, <380>, <381>, <382>, <383>, <384>, <385>, <386>, <387>, <388>, <389>, <390>, <391>, <392>, <393>, <394>, <395>, <396>, <397>, <398>, <399>, <400>, <401>, <402>, <403>, <404>, <405>, <406>, <407>, <408>, <409>, <410>, <411>, <412>, <413>, <414>, <415>, <416>, <417>, <418>, <419>, <420>, <421>, <422>, <423>, <424>, <425>, <426>, <427>, <428>, <429>, <430>, <431>, <432>, <433>, <434>, <435>, <436>, <437>, <438>, <439>, <440>, <441>, <442>, <443>, <444>, <445>, <446>, <447>, <448>, <449>, <450>, <451>, <452>, <453>, <454>, <455>, <456>, <457>, <458>, <459>, <460>, <461>, <462>, <463>, <464>, <465>, <466>

, (new)(back)

On that general sense of Uncertainty

http://www.philosophyoflife.org/jpl201312.pdf

Kind of sobering to read really. Makes me question the level of certainty we think we have about the world around us. But it does take a jab at religion so it's not that bad, I mean it does seem like religion was made to help us feel better about the world.Machina (talk) 19:53, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The notion of experiencing an illusion is poetic but imprecise. I suppose one can say that the human brain creates an analogue of the world. When the model we make of the world tracks with the world we observe, we are confident of our understanding. When the model is faulty in some way, our expectations become unreliable. This is where religion comes in: we don't understand, but there is someone who does understand. It's not our fault that our model is incoherent with the real world.Ariel31459 (talk) 22:14, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

The brain is an illusion. HairlessCat (talk) 16:26, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

It might as well be, for some.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:43, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Physicalist imp. HairlessCat (talk) 21:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Please look both ways when crossing...Ariel31459 (talk) 21:35, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The problem is presupposition, that an ultimate reality cannot be observed. The presupposition starts at "Ultimate reality cannot be defined by words or concepts." Which, I actually am cool with in terms of the limits of direct human observation? No unknowable God or soul or grand energy concept is allowed in there. What other points are allowed to be defined? The presupposition fails in that it doesn't acknowledge methods by which humans have discovered the extrasensory, and passed those concepts down by language. A non-evidentiary proof of unrecognizable influences to reality pales in comparison to an evidentiary and imperfect science of, say, magnetism, or even navigation IF we can agree that concepts are built by humans with language, and they are not ultimate reality, it unfortunately still does not follow that any concept built by language is either a testament or proof that a concept is valid. There are ways to test concepts outside of our personal ability to observe the universe, and humans are doing a great job at it and benefiting immensely from it. If you were lost in the woods, would you want a compass? A compass wouldn't work on its own if you didn't have the concepts of north and south. Now there is an understanding of polar north and magnetic north, and an understanding that magnets can be wildly influenced by their surroundings. The concept isn't magnetic north and polar north are mutable, it's that a compass can't always give you the correct direction. Hence, a million concepts and infinite uses of the idea that the universe CAN be understood, at least better than we understand it now, GPS is a bit more reliable than a sextant, no? If the mystery amounts to magic that we can't understand, that's the end of it. If the mystery is confronted by humans pushing to gain perspective, fuck, that's the magic. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:22, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

For Goat's sake- Can the CIA or FBI arrest Trump now? Please?

Trump admits he's blocking postal cash to stop mail-in votes

This is clear cut grounds for arrest. Can't the justice system do something good would once in a while. --Possible Goat (talk) 22:41, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

CIA is not a law enforcement agency, it has no authority to arrest. FBI can't do anything because you can't indict a sitting president.RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:32, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, given what the CIA does around the world if they got rid of Trump that might set a bad precedent going forward.-Flandres (talk) 00:23, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, intelligence agencies must be watched and limited carefully lest they go the path of the NKVD or Stasi. People think it can’t happen here, but Mossadegh begs to differ. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 00:48, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

We tried to impeach him. Guess who covered his stupid ass. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 03:13, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I believe it was quid pro joe who used a quid pro quo on Ukraine. LT^{May Dataclarifier be well!} 04:31, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

The CIA is strictly prohibited from operating on American soil. That's sort of what the PATRIOT ACT was supposed to fix, in that the FBI could have info the CIA doesn't but the FBI is interested in securing a conviction and so has to be more thorough and take its time, whereas the CIA has to just be reasonably sure of something and act quickly. Only, the act had lots of other horrible stuff because screw your rights, that's why.

Although weirdly, phone taps aren't quite as bad as we believe; originally, you called the operator who then used a switchboard to connect your call, so you didn't actually have an expectation of privacy, so your rights weren't technically violated if the police listened in. But then we invented automatic switchboards that don't require an operator to dial a number, and the expectation of privacy was added. So it's a rescinding of an extra right not originally granted, which is still awful when you think about it. Not sure how to give a good analogy. Not saying one right is more critical than the other, but in legal terms, I guess the difference would be between the rescinding of the right to not be tried twice for the same crime, which is enshrined in the constitution, versus rescinding the right to abortion, which is not explicitly in the constitution and came about as the result of some extremely... creative legal reasoning, though by no means the worst offender. No, that'd go to anything involving the Commerce Clause, e.g., the federal government can make it illegal to grow cannabis for personal use because by growing it for yourself you are no longer purchasing it, thus growing it for yourself is reducing the demand for cannabis across state lines, meaning that it affects interstate trade which the US government has the right to regulate on the national level. Never mind that by "reducing demand" you are avoiding a crime. I guess what I'm saying is that phone tapping is like restricting abortions, and we should be able to get high? CoryUsar (talk) 04:36, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

I am simply trying to wrap my mind around all this. --Possible Goat (talk) 12:21, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Hey @LT, read upTrump-Ukraine scandal-RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:24, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, the CIA is not strictly limited from acting on U.S. soil. In the recent Kevin Clinesmith guilty plea, Clinesmith forged a FISA to say that Carter Page was not working for the CIA when in fact he he was, on U.S. soil, in New York, to frame a Russian agent, Evgeny Burykov. This was a CIA counterintelligence investigation. The evidence then was turned over to DOJ-NSD (National Security Division) prosecutors. FBI was out of the loop. John Carlin headed DOJ-NSD up, and later was replaced my Mary McCord. Sally Yates, who spoke at the convention 2 nights ago, was their boss. And Michael Atkinson, the ISIG who floated the bogus whistleblower complaint that led to impeachment, was DOJ-NSD general counsel at the time. All of them are up to eyeballs in the Russia collusion fraud. All of them knew Carter Page was CIA asset and informant who helped gather evidence against a real Russian SVR agent, and all of them participated in the fraud against the FISA court. nobs^{Black Guns Matter} 23:31, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ No one gives a shit.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

turtle

i was taking my dog for a walk in a park when I saw a turtle in a pond, is it ok for me to give it a home? I doubt it will survive very long in an alcohol-filled puddle. Fowler (talk) 14:19, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

You can train it to fetch the morning paper. Though unless you spend two hours in the morning getting ready, it may not be the most efficient pet for newspaper retrieval. ShabiDOO 14:35, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

watch your fingers though, i hear them things bite AMassiveGay (talk) 14:55, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Best thing you could do for it is move it to a cleaner pond. Now, ordinary US slider pond turtles can be made into pets, but like most reptiles thry don't have much personality and don't really bond with people. Once they get to the size where you'd notice them in a pond they've lived quite a while in the outdoors. They will need both fairly deep water as well as dry land, and sunlight or some other kind of artificial substitute. A slider turtle needs to be fed both meat and vegetables. Probably more trouble than it's worth. If you want to keep it, an artificial lily pond would be best if you have that kind of land and cooperative neighbors. Then again if you live where wild turtles live, build it and they will come. And you won't have tp feed them or anything else that looks like work. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 16:15, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Valentines_Park I live here, don't let the pictures fool you, it's a shithole. I think the turtle might have been someone's pet, I'm not sure of the speciesFowler (talk) 16:40, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

Quality of life is always an issue. If you decide to handle the animal be sure to wash your hands afterwards. Turtles are very likely to carry salmonella.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:47, 19 August 2020 (UTC)

If you do give it a home, might I suggest you call it "Shelly" if it's female?Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 12:12, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I called it Shelly and took it home, bought a little tank but I think ill let it roam around my apartment :-) Fowler (talk) 13:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I have no idea what kind of turtles might be native to southern England. But if it is in fact an American red-eared slider, these are quite invasive. I douybt that the climate of London suits them all that well, but it probably is a good idea to remove it. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 16:12, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Canons

Her Majesty Mette-Marit had birthday yesterday, and it was marked with canons. I reckon it is a bad tradtion since it scares so many poor birds and pets.--Delibirda (talk) 08:24, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

She is a professor of canon law? — Oxyaena ^Harass 11:45, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

She is a princess.--Delibirda (talk) 06:28, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

**sigh** I suppose you meant cannons, which are large cylindrical devices used for the firing of massive projectiles, usually by the force of expanding gases resulting from the detonation of an explosive compound. Not canons, which are the various texts and tales that are considered by a religious authority or authorities to be properly a part of the complete religious writings of a... well, religion, as opposed to apocrypha which are those religious texts and tales that said religious authority looks at and says, "Whoa, pardner, we don't think this thing about baby Jesus killing other kids and then raising them because he had a tantrum is really appropriate. No, we're drawing the improbability line at his raising himself." There is a difference. Although it's true that cannons have been used in arguments about canons, which is what schismatic wars are about... Kencolt (talk) 12:39, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I still prefer the "professor of canon law" interpretation, alas. — Oxyaena ^Harass 14:17, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

They're literally just copying the Russians now

FreedomWorks is back in the news, actively trafficking in misinformation, deploying the exact same tools the GRU used in 2016. These cunts also led protests against stay-at-home orders. Not only is the GOP now a death cult, but they are actively against the Democratic process. While none of this is new, this is especially egregious considering Lebron James is working to support more voter engagement with his latest venture. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:43, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Why are you surprised? It (fascism) can happen here, and in fact, is happening here. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 23:52, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

finally pulled the ad, but only after LBJ tweeted about it.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:25, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Trump's new birther conspiracy against Kamala

How desperate can you be to resort to childish personal attacks? It is hilariously bad. --Possible Goat (talk) 13:20, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, it's Trump, so..... — Oxyaena ^Harass 13:22, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Why would anybody be surprised when Trump uses personal attacks? If anything, he does not only do when he is desperate, he just does that all the time. In fact, that childishness is a large part of modern american politics, optimists just like blaming it on Trump so they can pretend everything is fine when he is gone(the same can be said for many problems in his administration).-Flandres (talk) 13:35, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I heard that once, when he was younger, Biden rubbed against his mother's vagina while naked, and soon after, regularly put his mouth on his mother's nipples. Is this the kind of sick, disgusting person you want as your president? CoryUsar (talk) 14:05, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

>Being surprised by anything the GOP would do to hold on to power.

>Being surprised Trump is a racist.

Pick none.RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

She's black and Trump is a racist with no shame. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 15:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, she's black when it helps them attack her from the angle of classic racism, like when they paint her with the licentious whore brush with the sleeping-to-the-top lies. Then they turn around and deny her blackness in the same way they did with Obama, to unperson her, gaslight her, to deny her lived experience. Semipenultimate (talk) 16:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

It's one of the major benefits of having a base of credulous rubes who'll happy mainline all the rage & resentment you can feed them, logical consistency be damned. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 21:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

You should all watch this

— Oxyaena ^Harass 09:57, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

nah. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 10:00, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Raven being close minded as usual. Keep in mind most of Beau's viewers are social democrats. — Oxyaena ^Harass 10:17, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, cool. And? lol. Did you know Kyle Kulinski is a socdem but I don't like the guy? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 10:20, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

Seems interesting.--Delibirda (talk) 10:35, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

i think hes a tad too close to the camera but whatever. Fowler (talk) 13:06, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

No, more like Raven is saying "oh look, another random video from someone that has a history of posting lots and lots of videos in the saloon bar for the express purpose of trying to convince everyone that they are some arbiter of wisdom that should be revered, I think I'll pass". Now, I happen to disagree with that, honestly I don't know where Raven gets that sort of thinking, shame on them. CoryUsar (talk) 19:42, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your assessment of what Raven did, and I agree with it too. (If I wanna see a hairy bearded male talk nonsense, I can just look in the mirror) Cardinal Chang (talk) 22:15, 20 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean, what's your counter, that people talk nonsense? If you're that young, I will assure you, there is no point at which you suddenly communicate well. What is being stated is that there is a huge demographic that doesn't like Trump or Biden. And they watch Youtube, don't get so sure of yourself that you think just because Youtube is more than majorally trash all points are bad when expressed via youtube. Maybe you don't live in a shed or have a backwoods accent, but this guy is speaking about and to a real frustration with people who are not very optimistic about their electoral college votes.

What a load of assholes to say "doesn't affect me, not interested," and then to add on to say "you're dumb." Also, probably not keen to say "everyone" should watch this, but what a load of assholes to come down on it like rural and progressive America doesn't have valid concerns about the upcoming election, and valid criticisms about the messaging the Democratic party is missing. We're gonna lose this one too. Gol Sarnitt (talk)

I'd be pretty depressed if I was a voter in America, I still feel bad about a time I threw my vote and the 3/10 candidate proceeded to lose to the 0/10 candidate. Though given that the party then created more distance from the other parties and won with one of the best political candidates in a while in the following election... I dunno, maybe US voters should spoil vote independent.McUrist (talk) 15:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Firstly, short of Trump rigging the vote (which he is trying to do by the way) Biden is likely to win barring a massive fuckup. Secondly, This video is a part two to another video, and sort of requires the first for full context. Thirdly, and very importantly, bashing progressives only really leads to one outcome. Or to put it another way, today's status quo is tomorrow's injustice. Stagnation led to Trump and his ilk getting elected, and returning to it will fare no better without some sort of progressive option. Said option may come from Social Democracy, Anarchism, Socialism, or even perhaps Communism, or even a path not yet seen, but it will and must exist. Else the freedoms we so enjoy shall be lost to those who would seek to control and destroy. By all means vote for Biden if you wish, but do remember that he has no interest in changing the system, nor any real motivation to do so. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 15:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

"Today's radical is tomorrow's conservative" is incredibly misleading, and almost a Galileo argument. Tomorrow's conservative is today's radical, true, but the overwhelming majority of today's radicals become tomorrow's discredited kooks. We've had many, many crazy kooky ideas that have been proposed and are now today laughed at as being out of touch with empirical evidence. Graham Crackers were originally invented by a guy who thought eating an incredibly bland diet would rid the world of masturbation, for instance.

When it comes to progressives, today's progressives... aren't really as progressive as we'd like. The very existence of online shaming and "cancel culture" from things dug up from long ago is the antithesis of everything the "progressive" movement is supposed to be. Assumptions of guilt without trial and trial by media are dangerous, to say the least. The Regressive Left may currently refer to the Leftwing who turn a blind eye to Islamist nuttery, but it really could apply to those who want de-centralized fascism. CoryUsar (talk) 16:48, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I see you read not a word I wrote, but instead spoke in my stead. I shall thusly speak again, and perchance you will actually hear me. Society must remain fluid, and Biden isn't that. Sanders and the progressive caucus are. You say kooks, yet you speak vaguely, and without evidence. You bring up things like cancel culture and Islam, when such topics were not touched upon, and are fact more nuanced than you seem to understand. I'd further like to point out that the term "regressive left" is incredibly vague, and has multiple meanings depending on context and who's speaking. Perhaps you might be clearer in your language. Or perhaps you should address the actual substance of what I said instead of pivoting with borderline whataboutism. Returning to the old status quo is not the path forward, it is merely less destructive than open fascism. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 17:10, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I disagree with "Biden isn't fluid". Biden his entire career has been smack in the center of the Democratic party. The party has recently moved to the left, Biden moved with it.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:31, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

No, his rhetoric when he needs to win an election is fluid, always at the center of the party. What he pursues once given power is similar through his career, and it places him solidly on the right wing of the Democratic party.-Flandres (talk) 19:41, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

As much as there's a definite trend of centre left parties moving left to recapture green, socialist, pro-drug etc. votes, I just can't fathom Biden moving all that much. I posit it's a mindset circulating among third way politicians that "moving left exclusively means idpol and idpol loses elections", purely because they don't actually want to engage in any left economic politics because a) they get branded a socialist and Biden might not realise the cold war's no longer going and b) the donors wouldn't be happy. If Biden pretty much has it in the bag, isn't this the time to vote away from the 2 parties since they're both so unrepresentative? McUrist (talk) 00:26, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

In America, in our voting system, Biden may win the popular vote. But all the young men, the "Bernie bros," as stupid as that term is, that won Donald Trump's election are still voting, and they aren't voting Biden either. Here is a middling joke that lands and cools tensions, in the breadbasket. Either I vote for the racist old white man who can't say his words right and cares more about himself and his friends than the constituency, or I don't get a vote. It works well on the older people, it works well on the younger people, it's a striking kind of vanish move when the politics get in the way of whatever. Because nobody is unsure about those faults, and they keep trying to bring them up like they're a victory. I had a friend convinced of this video. He was talking about it a lot. I watched it and said "...you know his wife's name is Jill, right?" He did not know that. I mean, there are people using this to say Joe Biden can't put a sentence together. And people believe it, and they tell their friends. It's not a concern of a loss barring some Trump administration hijinks, the coasts have completely unwarranted "nothing but homelessness and gang violence" reputations in the midwest, as if our big cities didn't have smaller populations and similar problems. Do not underestimate the enfranchisement of narrow-minded young people. They exist in large caliber, and they are using the internet too. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 02:50, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Could We Still See Hillary Clinton Nominated in 2020? Articles that did not age well

Could We Still See Hillary Clinton Nominated in 2020? The Answer - No ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:977:d10:88e6:ec25 / talk / contribs}

I fucking hate this country. — Oxyaena ^Harass 23:15, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

What's great is that this country also hates most of its citizens for a variety of reasons (gender identity, sex, race, socio-economic status).RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:24, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

At the moment most of the world hates your country but that should change in November. Scream!! (talk) 23:29, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

It's the worst place to be, except for all the others. No one said life would be fun and rewarding, and I can think of plenty of places a whole lot worse than here to be. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 23:30, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

True.Scream!! (talk) 23:33, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

Things get better in time. Ariel31459 (talk) 23:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I wonder if the Romans told themselves that as Alaric led his Visigoths into their supposedly impregnable capitol(well, technically the west was ruled from Ravenna, but you get the reference).-Flandres (talk) 23:53, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

The US of A, a once proud country turned into a strange hybrid of a crappy reality show and Orwell's 1984. How the Hell does that happen? --Possible Goat (talk) 00:08, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, the USA had massive domestic problems to begin with. Trump just exposed them and made them worse.-Flandres (talk) 00:11, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Rome was a city state that controlled an empire in which slaves were the primary source of labor. Not an analogue.Ariel31459 (talk) 04:19, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

All civilizations must die eventually. It's comforting to say it can't happen to yours and yours is completely different but at that point you are just lying to yourself.-Flandres (talk) 12:36, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

One word: Bigotry. A quote which I cannot attribute and I'm somewhat paraphrasing jumps to mind, but at it's simplest: "You can tell a white man to agree with you on almost anything, as long as he also knows that a black man will be disadvantaged even more from it." The Republican party's banking on the Southern strategy is from what I know entirely reliant on that idea. They'll vote for Republicans, no matter how hypocritical the message they say is. They claim to want freedom, but want to be pro-life, they claim to care about democracy but make it harder to vote, we can continue onwards down this line. None of it would make sense if you tried to examine these ideas from the perspective of but a very few select (rich) elite. The reason that they still get voted for? Because they're the only party that appeals to racist beliefs and bigoted thought. They will make the rich even richer, while kicking minorities down the drain because it gets them their voters. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 09:58, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The southern strategy has been debunked. Better luck next time. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59DB:4100:510C:572C:7EC8:788F / talk}

You know, your media diet seems to consist almost entirely off grifters. Perhaps you ought to take you ban and scamper back there? ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 21:07, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Slightly obscure music request

If anyone has any music that kinda messes around with the genres Funeral Doom Metal, Trap/Soundcloud Rap, Vapourwave and Blackgaze, pls suggest them here. I already know a shitload of bands that do these things individually but I like combos and stuff. Thank you 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 06:18, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

When I listen to doom metal (not exactly my go to but I don't like to discriminate when it comes to music), I listen to Anathema. They have a good few albums out and their style has evolved over the years so I'm sure you'll find something that gives you what you're looking for.-Hastur! (talk) 06:30, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Only heard their more Porcupine Tree stuff so far tbh, but I been meaning to check out their old kinda doom shit for ages. Thanks for the rec. My impression is that they had a kinda vaguely funeral-ish edge, without going into full on Mournful Congregation or diSEMBOWELMENT territory; I love those bands but sometimes need something more chill so that’d b worth hearing for sure. Thanks very much! 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 06:43, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Anytime. Also, try The Sisters of Mercy. Not doom metal but I think you'll dig them nonetheless. Especially if you're fond of amphetamines (though I would personally urge moderation and avoiding harder stuff like meth altogether). The lead singer, Andy Eldritch certainly references them a fair bit-Hastur! (talk) 06:49, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh yea I been meaning to check out more post punk/goth style shit for AGES so thanks for the rec. Also yeah, thankfully I haven’t touched the reeealll hard shit for ages and definitely don’t plan on going anywhere near meth again — anything that makes you feel that good while being so fucking bad for you is not something to play around with. These days I thankfully only get amped maybe 2-3 times a week which is still too much but a big improvement at least. They’re Evil Ass Bitches but way too fun. Love a good bit of Speed Music tho so thanks a whole bunch 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 06:56, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Now I feel old. CoryUsar (talk) 04:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

You might enjoy the Black Angels, especially the first couple albums; here's Sniper at the Gates of Heaven, and Chelsea Wolfe, here's Pale on Pale. Edit: I too am quite old. The first records I liked enough to actually buy copies of were "Fire" by Arthur Brown and "Atlantis" by Donovan. My tastes in music have been remarkably consistent through the past fifty-odd years. Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 05:07, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Delving back further, there's also Candlemass. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 13:52, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

So...

Can I finally consider this matter settled? https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/RationalWiki:Articles_for_deletion/List_of_amino_acids

I would like to incorporate the list into the article or, at least, as a subpage. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 19:17, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess. Maybe you should do it right away... The 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭 ^{talk stalk} 05:49, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Bongolian (talk) 07:48, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Effectus est. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 10:22, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

discede ab culo! I can speak Latin too... Fowler (talk) 12:39, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Are you sure you meant what you wrote there? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 12:44, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I looked it up, lol Fowler (talk) 12:52, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

^{Do You Believe That?} — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 13:01, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I can send you a screenshot if you want. Fowler (talk) 13:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

"Smell that? I smell victory." Fowler (talk) 13:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Utinam barbari spatium proprium tuum invadant!Coigreach (talk) 14:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Per "personalis spatium" dicis mihi pp? Fowler (talk) 14:12, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Cutting public funding off from Catholic adoption agencies

If they get tax payer money then they should be following anti-discrimination policies. Too long these Catholic adoption agencies use tax payer money to enforce discrimination against LGBT+ people and non-Christians. Either cut off tax payer funds from them or follow the law. The Bible even states that the law of man applies to people (Titus 3:1 - Put them in mind to be subject to principalities and powers, to obey magistrates, to be ready to every good work,) --Possible Goat (talk) 23:00, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

I concur with this sentiment. Religion is not shield against discrimination.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 23:25, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Taking a crack at learning French

After learning some Esperanto, I am finding it fairly easy to learn the French language. --Possible Goat (talk) 15:11, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Have you tried Duolingo (for french)? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 15:14, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

That is what I am using. I also used Duolingo for Esperanto. --Possible Goat (talk) 15:19, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

If you want I also have a cool podcast to learn french. Notice, you can't just focus on grammar. You also need to listen and speak it, since French is a very complex language. On spotify: CoffeeBreak French — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 19:19, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I think its a fabulous idea to learn a living language. French isn't as tricky as say Russian, Chinese or Arabic but it isn't an easy breazy language like Italian, Afrikaans or Dutch. I don't think French is a complex language (grammar wise it is extremely similar to English except the conjugations and gender). It's the spelling system that is horrendous, the dropping of final consonants and blending of words together makes understanding even basic sentences difficult for beginners and the pronunciation of the nasal vowels and the rounded vowels is quite tricky. But if you can get through those hurdles (and they aren't insignificant hurdles) there is an enormous wealth of French culture you can soak up (literature, cinema, drama, philosophy) and a pretty large number of countries you can enjoy more by knowing the language (Switz, France, Belgium, Lux, Monaco, parts of Canada, several carribean and Indian ocean Islands and other territories and a lot of West African countries). Even learning just basic French is totally worth it and with French learning Spanish or Italian will be a walk in the park. Though if you are just looking for an easy living language to learn I'd recommend Dutch or Spanish (relatively straight forward spelling systems, few exotic sounds, minimal cutting or merging, not overly complex conjugations and just like with French there are tons of free online resources and with Spanish a huge wealth of culture to explore and even more countries to visit). ShabiDOO 04:14, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Ok silly question. Is a language being excessively convoluted and difficult to learn a sign that the speakers are intelligent enough to even be capable of such a language, or a sign they are dumb enough to create such a horrid and difficult language? CoryUsar (talk) 04:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

No language is more complex than any other in and of itself but just some have certain elaborate features. And no language is more sophisticated because it takes more hours for some non-native speakers to learn, part of those difficulties is simply because certain languages have almost no vocabulary in common so you'll have to learn just about every word with no reference to hold onto, the sound systems are completely different, the writing system could be different or have ridiculous spelling for historical reasons. How hard a language to learn is also depends on what language you speak. For native English speakers Afrikaans is a total breeze but it is absolutely NOT for a Chinese speaker. Meanwhile for us learning Russian is brutal but for a Polish speaker it is still a fair but of work but nowhere near as brutal. I don't believe any language shows any more sophistication than any other, though English does have an enormous vocabulary for reasons relating to international academics, technology and trade...meaning some other langauges may not have a few more specialized words and have to adopt ours, but again that has nothing to do with sophistication but with language prestige or being a lingua franca. ShabiDOO 05:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

This website has a list of the American foreign service categorization of the time it takes for Native English speakers to learn a language (not that the hours it takes to learn those languages will be totally jumbled around for speakers of say Chinese or Samoan.^{— Unsigned, by: Shabidoo / talk / contribs}

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘There however some languages that are simpler than others: pidgins (and to some extent creoles), which by their nature have reduced vocabulary, simplified grammars, and reduced phonology. Afrikaans and Indonesian had some creolization in their histories, explaining why they're relatively easy for (some) foreigners to learn. Bongolian (talk) 07:47, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

One thing I like about German is that there are Rules that are strictly followed, most of the time anyway. There's also a huge overlap in vocabulary, and much less of it to begin with compared to English. One of the results is that, with limited language and strict rules, there's much less room for jokes relying upon puns or poetry, which is why those stereotypes about Germans exist. CoryUsar (talk) 15:21, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Pidgins only last for a couple generations unless it is an L2 language which usually doesn't last more than a few generations. In any case, I don't think anybody here would have any reason to learn a pidgin language except out of pure linguistic research. Creoles are only seemingly simpler (to the native speakers of the language from which the creole derrived). However for say, a Mongolian speaker, learning a French/African creole, the language won't seem any less sophisticated or easy to learn. ShabiDOO 16:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

@Rationalzombie94 Bonne chance! Amuse-toi bien. Spud (talk) 11:42, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Spud small correction (since your french seems to be quite good), whenever you use ! and ? you formally have to put a space between them. E.g. "Regarde!" is wrong, "Regarde !" is correct. Seems pedantic but I actually read on a rule about it: French Punctuation: The Curious Case of the Space. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 12:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Hi! French here. Most french people don't care about this rule, and loads of others are also dropped (Concordance des temps, anyone?) from regular conversation and writing. I'm sorry for the poor saps who learn french. It's a beautiful language (I'm biased), but fuck some rules, especially in writing, are horrendeous. And we gender EVERYTHING! How do you get a language to do that?! it's silly!2001:861:5700:5150:591E:CD87:7E42:481 (talk) 21:12, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice to know that, if I am doing something wrong, it's something native speakers do too.

I studied Modern Languages (French and Spanish) at university. I don't suppose many question marks or exclamation marks came up in what I had to write in French while I was there. But we were allowed to write most assignments by hand in those days (back in 1991 to 1995) and maybe that made a difference. I had to write my dissertation on a typewriter but that was in Spanish (on the Don Juan legend). I was allowed to add the accents and upside down question marks and exclamation marks by hand. Students who wrote their dissertations in Russian were allowed to write them entirely by hand.

Anyway. Here goes.

@Rationalzombie94 Bonne chancce ! Amuse-toi bien. Spud (talk) 09:23, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, French folks also usually omit « ne » when using a negation (« je ne sais pas » becomes, in common parliance, « je sais pas »). I read about the use of guillements (« and ») as a French substitute for quotation marks; even then the rule is a bit inconsistent. In Switzerland, there is no space between them and the words they precede/succeed; while in France there is. Also, Switzerland at least has « nonante » (lit. "ninety") instead of the cumbersome « quatre-vingt-dix » (lit. "four-twenty-ten"). I had to learn French from scratch, so sometimes I don't make common mistakes that French natives make, like, for example, conflating « sur » (on, about) with « sûr » (sure). — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 09:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh yes, our quotation marks are *different*, also, yay, Cultural Exception! By the way, using "nous" make it sound very/formal professional, we use "on" mostly to talk about group of people, except on lots of cases that don't really really make sense, we have stuff like "ver", "verre", "vert", "vair", they're all pronounced the same way but they mean totally different things, however "os" and its plural "os" are written the same but not pronounced the same, also lots of french people like to moan about their stupid language but just a simple orthographic reform in the 90's was met with widespread opposition. However our litterature is excellent and our humor is hilarious, provided you're french. Because lots of french like to mock frenchs. Only food brings us together.2001:861:5700:5150:15D8:F15A:5648:418E (talk) 20:47, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Je parles Anglais et Esperanto. Je ne parles Japonais. --Possible Goat (talk) 22:37, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

A discourse on human rights

— Oxyaena ^Harass 21:05, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Episode 5962 of "Some fascists have a problem with human rights" All fascists have a problem with human rights, whatever the color they drape their fascism in. Nothing new.2001:861:5700:5150:591E:CD87:7E42:481 (talk) 21:17, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I take it you didn't actually watch the video? How surprising. — Oxyaena ^Harass 21:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Human rights hmm. — Dysk (contribs) 23:10, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Help

I have been very stressed lately. I am starting to doubt my gender identity and since I can't use Discord for a while, I have been unable to find someone to talk to. I might need to see a trans-friendly doctor.--Delibirda (talk) 09:18, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Hello @Delibirda. If you speak English fluently (as you seem to), try "Trans Lifeline is a trans-led organization that connects trans people to the community, support, and resources they need to survive and thrive.". If I recall correctly you are from Sweden, so maybe the Swedish site Sweden.se might have something for you (I would try and see if the Swedish version is more elaborate than the English one. Probably). — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 09:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I am nowegian (I live in Norway). But thanks a lot!--Delibirda (talk) 09:36, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Forgive me then. Try Life in Norway - LGBT Resources in Norway. Let me know if it helped. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 09:38, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

That's really shitty Delibrida. If you want...send me a PM and I can give you my Google talk account or WhatsApp number to chat if you need a friendly ear. ShabiDOO 09:53, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

If you use Reddit, r/TransNord is a subreddit that may be helpful. Dendlai (talk) 20:07, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Maga and Fascism.

— Oxyaena ^Harass 16:28, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Nice song

Don't you agree? 2A02:1812:2C66:D000:786D:C451:83E3:36A0 (talk) 18:07, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed. Metazero (talk) 22:24, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

NBA Cancels Matches

In response to the maiming of Jacob Blake Jr and the murder of two protesters by a right-wing counter protester in Kenosha, WI, the Milwaukee Bucks boycotted their game, followed quickly by the other two matches scheduled today. I'm always uncertain how to address sport on this platform, but this seems to be an important moment currently about the responsibilities of professional athletes, and a reckoning for structures that benefit from the labor of Black athletes.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:55, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

What was it about?

There was a thing about that trans women shouldn't be in womens sports. What was it really about?--Delibirda (talk) 07:36, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

At it's core? Trans bathroom panic 2.0, aka transphobia. ☭Comrade GC☭^{Ministry of Praise} 13:14, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

I wonder where it were birthed.--Delibirda (talk) 13:16, 21 August 2020 (UTC)

It was me that started the discussion, partially to kick the hornets nest and also because I found myself agreeing with a friend who was quite angry about it. It comes up now and again when a trans athlete wins anything. McUrist (talk) 00:30, 22 August 2020 (UTC)

Present. I'm fine with sport, and sport is a broad term. I like the idea of non-gendered sport, but also what the fuck do we do? If you mean billiards, I don't think there's a reason to gender classify. If you mean sprinting, who is affected by or living on sprint times? There are people whose livelihood rely on their ability to ski, sprint, box, wrestle. It's really a big brush to ask "trans in sports?" I will defer to boxers and their doctors on the terms of biology boxing, Extrapolating carelessly is the issue. Just because I don't care about any of those sports doesn't mean they aren't real. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 06:04, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

@McUrist I recommend you read Transphobia and public restrooms before you kick the nest again.(Or maybe I am doing it now...)--Delibirda (talk) 06:53, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Disturber of the peace! Not sure if it's worth getting into... buuuuut The public restrooms thing is far more insane and while I'm sure the sports issue gets thrust into the limelight for less than savory reasons, the issue of "unfairness" is still a moot point. I personally think there should be more categories since it's unfair for white people to have to run against Kenyans or play rugby against Tongans. McUrist (talk) 08:56, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

It is not unfair. The "reasoning" is racialism. --Delibirda (talk) 09:52, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

The reasoning for trans restrictions is racialism? :) The race categories was just a shit joke and I'm not taking a sideswipe at masters, para-athletics etc. Just ignore. I just view the conundrums of professional sports as absurdities that run contrary to important things like encouraging participation and anyone taking any hard stance on "fairness" ends up tying themselves in pretzels.McUrist (talk) 11:10, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

No Racialism is saying white runners shouldn't compete against Kenyan runners. The purpose of sport is human competition (and profit) and saying a trans athlete gets an advantage is both trans-phobic and inaccurate.RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:32, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Human competition and money. No one has ever done sport for enjoyment, socialisation, fitness etc, etc. This view seems excessively "MURICA" to me. "JUST MONEY AND FIGHTING OO RAH!" I'll express my frustration here though: You can't just pretend it's a closed book and saying "trans-phobic" is not an argument despite, as I implied before, trans-phobia being the reason the issue is in the limelight. I guess the journals that disagree are trans-phobic. review, meta study. McUrist (talk) 08:37, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe you should read your sources bub. From the 2017 piece:

CONCLUSION:Currently, there is no direct or consistent research suggesting transgender female individuals (or male individuals) have an athletic advantage at any stage of their transition (e.g. cross-sex hormones, gender-confirming surgery) and, therefore, competitive sport policies that place restrictions on transgender people need to be considered and potentially revised.

-RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:21, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

There is an entire Wikipedia article about this issue. The issue is the well known performance advantage testosterone and certain aspects of male biological development gives to certain performance aspects of sport, and to try to ensure that the playing field in any sport that is gendered is fair when a transgender athlete competes. This is not saying "trans women shouldn't be in womens sports", that's a very simplistic way of looking at things -- much of the focus is on testosterone levels. The issues IMHO are not entirely settled yet (there's that study but many others in the Wiki article).

This obviously applies only to elite level professional / Olympic / etc. competition. Most people probably honestly won't give a shit at average level fitness events like, say your average 5K (where the average man will outrun your average woman, but the time range is so wide, the experience level so variable, and the focus tends to be on personal achievement anyways, any potential "performance boost" from a transgender entering, if any, really doesn't matter.) Soundwave106 (talk) 21:33, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Rather than kicking the nest, I'm going to Darkwing Duck the situation. Let's. Get. Unfortunate. There is, unfortunately, a less-than educational incentive to perform well in sports, collegiate atheletes are basically purchased, asked to risk bodily harm without getting paid, and then the professional sports franchises get to pick and choose. What would it take to make e a better world? I agree on the top tiers of athleticism, Olympic tiers, nobody is getting there without undeniable inborn physiology. In places where the talent is purchased, which is public schools, you know what, fuck em, integrate the shit early, keep it integrated. I'm not advocating for the boogeyman of trans athletes taking over, most athletes are cis and women's' sports get paid less anyway, what's that about? So I get the point. It's not that scary, I'm not saying the world will crumble. I'm saying that some people whose puberty disproportionally affected their bone structure and muscle make-up are basically going to get bought up by the entertainment industry for their ability to perform freakish feats of athleticism. And if I were to say, fighting is stupid get a real job, or sprinting is just a race, get a real job, or any of that, I'd be an asshole. On a less than professional level, you, me, we're gonna lose to a top tier athlete. Gender identification is real, gender separation in sport is confusing, and sport is a big fluid word. I mean, I'm really not worried about men who have potential future in boxing getting clobbered by women who have a future in boxing, but that's very specific and unlikely for boxing. I'm also not worried about guys who have a potential future in archery losing to women who have a potential future in archery. I think it'd be a better start to call for sports like archery and billiards to integrate rather than going all in on complaints about wrestling and sprinting. And I know, I know, this sounds just like a racialism thing, I'm not happy about that either. But the nonsense of gendering skill sports the same way as physical sports is easier to read.

The problem is, this isn't a question about defining sport, it's a question about defining sex and gender, and yes who is allowed into what club based on gender. And with specific sports at specific levels, the argument that sex and gender has no bearing is so valid to me that anyone who says otherwise is an immediate dope. But, is this a conversation about sport, or is it a conversation about sex and gender? They are, unfortunately, two different conversations. The question, "why do men and women get separated in sport?" is I guess what I'm trying to answer. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

How do you guys research this stuff?

It's just that.... I find it pretty hard to do. I mean, especially when you have to listen to these crazy people for 15 minutes, and the entire suggested videos column and comment section is drowned is just as much crazy shit... I'm just really dumbfounded. You guys have any research secrets you use to get through this stuff? Metazero (talk) 22:34, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

What examples are you thinking of? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Conspiracy theories-- it's easy to watch a few clips on religion, logic, or some science to fill in a redlink, but watching primary sources from conspiracy theorists, especially people like Jay Dyer (who I'm writing on) or Alex Jones, is a melter of brain cells. Metazero (talk) 22:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Having listened to a small sample of Benjamin Owens before I couldn't take it any more, I can kinda understand this. But people have long noticed the patterns from conspiracy theorits and unfalsifiability of conspiracy theories since we had the benefit of, well, human history and psychology that we can use that general framework and then we can pry apart the claims of conspiracy theories. I still wonder what exact subject matter you're referring to? You mentioned Alex Jones, who probably talked about chemtrails. Chemtrails is pretty easy to debunk, in my opinion, but did it seem like we just somehow magically know where to research there? --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I generally don't listen to videos (crank or otherwise). When I have the need to watching crankish, I often watch it with the sound off and with closed captions on. It helps me preserve my sanity. Bongolian (talk) 07:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

@LGM: On the subject I've been researching... It's this one guy who tends to blame a lot of stuff on the bIg ScarY MaRxY pEoPlE and whines about the "technocracy", 5G, GMO, that kind of stuff. Also, thanks, Bong.

YES.

https://twitter.com/amazingatheist/status/1298027150185058305 HairlessCat (talk) 00:12, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Anyone else noticing this?

First off, I don't wanna sound racist. Recently, I've been noticing more and more Youtube comments supporting Trump/conspiracy theories from people that, judging by channel name, seem to be from people from Latin/South America. That being said, however, these are YT comments, and anyone can use any channel name. Any explanation to this, like increased Trump support in Latin/South America, or just YT being YT? Metazero (talk) 22:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

There is always going to be a contingent of Trump supporters from any given country. YouTube comments aren't representative of a demographic, as we can likely find a similar block of people from that Latin/South America demographic that opposes Trump. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:52, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

On social media such as YouTube or Facebook, it might seem like a lot of people support whatever the case may be. Places like Latin America are massive. So a large number of posts mean nothing in the grand scheme of a demographic. Example: I live in an area of Michigan with plenty of Trump supporters but where I live does not make up the entire demographic. --Possible Goat (talk) 00:31, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

They could be supporting the likes of Bolsonaro in Brazil or Piñera in Chile, and see Trump as a sort of "kindred spirit."-Flandres (talk) 20:05, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Has any place in the United States ever seen good honest police work?

I really doubt it and I live in the United States. Does good honest police work not exist? --Possible Goat (talk) 01:57, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

What would be good enough to qualify? This is not an objective question with some strict cutoff between "good honest police work" and all cops being bastards. Certainly I'd like to see zero people die violent deaths at the hands of the people whose job description is "keeping the peace", but what is the standard beyond that? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 02:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It happens all the time. The police are like linebackers in a game of American football; nobody gives a crap about them until one of them fucks up. CoryUsar (talk)

Police are getting caught more, because the entire system is racist, and they refuse to recognize that fact.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:51, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Christchurch Mosque gunman - why blame the killer if you believe the dead have gone to paradise?

So the man who killed 51 people at 2 mosques in New Zealand last year got life without parole - I think few would have any problem with that - many who have a problem would berate NZ for not having a death penalty!

But I am genuinely curious why it is that religion did not provide more comfort to the survivors. As an atheist I do not believe in an afterlife, and I completely get the basic human reaction to loss - but for those who do believe in a paradise in the afterlife - what is the problem with someone who has sent a person there???

At least one of the victim impact statements read out in the last 3 days in court made the point that the man was a martyr, and the surviving wife was the wife of a martyr, and these were "elevations" or "promotions" of status in islam, or similar words. So if martyrdom is a promotion, and indeed even sought by many, why are those that "grant" it blamed for anything at all by those religious people??

It seems to me that this highlights a major disconnect between the religious text/philosophy - there is great reward in the afterlife but we're still going to punish you for giving all those people this great reward.

Obviously in this particular instance the religion is islam, but there are, of course' examples in every other religion that has a similar concept - christians say someone has "gone to a better place" while bemoaning the death as an obvious one, especially a child. Aloysius the Gaul 02:32, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Because the ethical worldview of religions that have this sort of belief are almost always deontological and not utilitarian. There are things you are to do and not to do, and that's moral and immoral respectively. The sum of happiness of souls is a secondary characteristic in the hands of the supposedly omnibenevolent deity. And religion does provide comfort to survivors. That's exactly what proclamations about the dead going to an eternal reward is supposed to do, and successfully does for a great many people.

Regardless I do not believe as they believe, and think that slaughtering innocents just snuffs out unique existences and dusts everyone left behind with unnecessary suffering. It frankly approaches as close to the concept of "pure evil" as can reasonably be understood to be possible. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 02:44, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree that killing is evil.... there's no afterlife and a dead person is indeed the end of a unique existence.... not quite my point..... and certainly the is apparently some comfort to be had but it seems pretty minor TBH and not my point. But the rest of your post.... er.... wot?Aloysius the Gaul 03:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

OK - so I looked up deontology... and sure... the act it self is evil regardless of consequence. And yet the consequence is not insignificant - it is the supreme reward fo a person - the best thing they can possibly aspire to!! (if you believe in such things) So there's a massive disconnect right there - how can something that provides the very best thing that can happen to a person person be considered evil???Aloysius the Gaul 03:36, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I think I saw somewhere here someone posted an interesting idea. If a person is "bad", and you believe in reincarnation, the absolute best thing you could do would be to ensure that they live as long as humanly possible in prison so that they don't immediately get reborn and continue causing problems. If you believe in heaven and hell and whatnot, helping someone find redemption and saving their soul, even a murderer, is an unambiguously good act, therefore you want inmates to have the longest possible time for them to find religion, again, keeping them alive as long as possible.

Me, personally? I'm the biggest dick of all, I want to make an example out of them, and I can think of no worse fate than to lock these people up for as long as possible and having them rot into gnarled, twisted old men with rotten teeth, remembered as broken empty husks rather than executing and thus immortalizing them in the prime of their youths. So again, keep them alive as long as possible.CoryUsar (talk) 04:00, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I'd be happy with hard labour for life - and a webcam so anyone who wants to can watch him being worked like a dog until he drops every day. Not my point tho :) Aloysius the Gaul 04:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

About your question of how doing nice things can be evil. Well, many religions have a version of Karma. In Abrahamic religions, it's part of the answer Theodicy, or, why would an omniscient, omnibenevolent, and omnipotent being allow bad things to happen to good people. The answer is "don't worry, all debts are settled in the afterlife". Which is a cop-out, obviously, but basically, even bad people do good things, and they get rewarded now but get extra punishment after they die, whereas good people still do bad things but if they suffer now it lets them get a better reward in heaven. So basically, if you are really, really nice to bad people in this life, you are actually condemning them to an even more horrific afterlife.

Wait, no, that's not your question. Eh.

There is a major disconnect in religion, but the answer that you'll get is rather simple. Sure, they might be getting a great reward now, but by cutting their time short you prevented them from doing even better things in the future, denying them an even better reward. CoryUsar (talk) 05:42, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Nah - don't think that's true - there is only the 1 reward in the abrahamic religions at least, and it's "all or nothing", with some potential deferred receipt options..... Aloysius the Gaul 10:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It's kind of weird because I always had the Divine Comedy model of hell from my very catholic education. That could have been just imagination, dogma or somewhere in between, I'm not sure. As for the punishment, it's probably because I'm close to this one because I'm usually against excessive punishment, but I love the irony in the webcam idea. Feeling pretty bloodthirsty about this, wouldn't mind a prolonged visceral and gruesome punishment. McUrist (talk) 11:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Judaism definitely does not have "all or nothing". You actually get both reward and punishment. It isn't like Christianity where if you give the homeless guy a job you get sent to Stripper Lake, if you punch the homeless guy you get sent to Piranha Lake, if you do both you go to purgatory. In Judaism, if you do both, you get sent to Stripper Lake but it's full of piranhas. CoryUsar (talk) 15:06, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Can someone please explain this to me?

"Austin is a giant political reverse-affirmative-action program for the rich and stupid. The governorship is traditionally seen as a do-nothing job..." Fun:Texas this is very rude to my hometown meany Can someone please explain the quoted sentence in more depth please?Metazero (talk) 15:04, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It basically means that Austin has an incompetent government.— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 16:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Holdomor article

Why do we not have an article on the Holdomor, I cannot find anything about it on the Wiki. I'm just curious because I find it to be a significant and controversial event in History. Could someone please explain to me why I cannot Find any info on it here, Please and Thank you St.~Emi (talk) 17:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Probably because you misspelled it. Coigreach (talk) 17:49, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

okay thanks I'm dumb St.~Emi (talk) 17:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Potential good news with the pandemic

News conference with President @realDonaldTrump at 6 pm tomorrow concerning a major therapeutic breakthrough on the China Virus. Secretary Azar and Dr. Hahn will be in attendance as tweeted by White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany. Looking forward to it! ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

Oh wow, do you think he'll pardon Susan B. Anthony again?-Hastur! (talk) 06:39, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Shit, the deep state is trying to thwart him!!!!!-Hastur! (talk) 06:41, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think so, once pardoned always pardoned right?^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

the deep state tweet isnt related to the China virus breakthrough update.^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

I don't know, that first pardon was pretty impactful! Maybe a second one will really get the message across. Also, let's call it the yellow virus to really get the point across-Hastur! (talk) 06:44, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I like the way you think, even better would be a third pardon, third times the charm after all! and we shouldnt call it yellow virus, that would be racist, unlike china virus. Did you know Spanish flu is thought to have come from China as well?^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

Unsurprising. Those commies are always up to no good. Even before they were commies, apparently-Hastur! (talk) 06:51, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Mao Zedong was born 1893, the Spanish flu took place a couple decades later. not good!^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

Definitely suspicious. Also this timeline makes it clear that Woodrow Wilson and Franklin D. Roosevelt were likely crypto-Maoists. It seems that the infiltration of the Democratic Party began sooner than we thought-Hastur! (talk) 06:55, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Thats right Hastur! that someone of your caliber is not moderator, sysop, and supreme ruler of rationalwiki is nothing less than a black mark against this website!^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

You know, I say the same thing all the time-Hastur! (talk) 07:13, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

1. What the fuck is happening in this thread?
2. Calling covid anything other than covid or coronavirus is inaccurate but calling it China or Wuhan anything is extremely racist.
3. Though this could be promising, there is little evidence of its efficacy, and it seems more like "miracle" bs

All in all its racist, irrational and generally lazy. RipCityLiberal (talk) 04:56, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Please, we all know the only proper name of the disease is "Boomer-Remover". CoryUsar (talk) 05:02, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

As a 62 year old person who is thoroughly sick of that term, I eagerly await news of your infection. Kencolt (talk) 12:43, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I never liked that nickname for Covid. It downplays the effects of the virus, since it can also be very dangerous amongst youth, and y'know, many elderly folks are quite nice and really don't deserve to die. Had to deal with someone a few months ago who basically went "why should we want to find a cure for covid, we should let it run free to kill boomers" when I suggested running folding@home on spare computers (they're helping out with trying to make a covid vaccine). Kinda pissed me off, but I guess that's the kinda thought that some folks have these days when it comes to horrible diseases. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 13:29, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

And of course, it would be horribly insensitive of me to refer to a pandemic that mainly targeted 15 to 30 years olds as "Y-teout flu" or the "Zro Survival bug"... but I'm getting where I'd do it anyhow. Kencolt (talk) 19:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Gallows humor, how does it work? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

So, in the end this was pretty underwhelming? Convalescent plasma? Not new. Not really proven. To be fair, it was better than his inject bleach and and full body radiation plan. At least this shouldn't create any immediate deaths and has some medical plausibility. So it's definitely a step forward for Trump.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 17:43, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Can we raise the bar even a modicum higher than this, considering the FDA had to retract an inaccurate statement from the announcement.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:25, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

@Kencolt It's called "black comedy".

@The Crow Most people in general don't deserve to die. However, while it's no laughing matter, it's rare for young people to die of it. Still should be avoided obviously, and we don't know the full scale of longterm effects. In total, we've lost 17 infants, 12 toddlers, 25 kids aged 5-14, and 266 aged 15-24. Link So basically, 300 people under 25, and we will probably lose a few hundred more before the pandemic ends. Many of those had comorbidities, which obviously isn't something that causes someone to deserve capital punishment, but it's easy to understand why healthy young people aren't taking this seriously. CoryUsar (talk) 22:29, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

I get that it's black comedy/gallows humor and that young people don't die from it. The problem is that the gallows humor is actively being used as an argument by certain people to not take Covid too seriously. It's that kinda attitude that leads to things like teenagers breaking social distancing rules (even here, where most people follow the rules, we have a few shitheads who don't) or not taking things as seriously as they should. Gallows humor to alleviate a serious situation? Sure, perfectly fine, I do it quite a bit myself. Gallows humor that results in people not treating a disaster as a disaster, but rather as an inconvenience that they can fairly safely ignore since it doesn't affect them? That's when gallows humor crosses the line for me into being unacceptable. And again, even from anecdotal experience above (someone unironically saying that they want boomers gone before we should think about curing COVID), it's something that does appear to happen. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 10:35, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Way too many people in general view the pandemic as some inevitable "culling." I would be curious how the hard green movement would react to all this...-Flandres (talk) 18:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Trump isn't a full Fascist but...

John McNeil re-upped on his 2016 article detailing the threat of Trump with four years of evidence. For those too lazy to read, in 2016 McNeil found that the candidate Trump would represent the greatest threat to American Democracy, scoring 59% based on the fascist calculator (named after Benito Mussolini). The threat has increased mildly to 62%, it appears that Trumps own cowardice is the only thing keeping him from scoring higher (he is just not interested in real military conflict), but there is a particular part of this calculator I feel is important to look at as today is the beginning of the RNC nominating convention.

One of the eleven characterized by fascist movements is purging the hierarchical party structure. While fascist tend to purge their parties with violence, Trump has done nearly as effective a job without any violence. The RNC has no platform except fealty to Trump. His campaign's 50 core principles, reveals no policy, or strategy or anything of any substance. While it pains me to admit, Democratic Republics need two primary parties/ideologies guiding a country. Right now there is only one, the GOP's only guiding principle is consolidating power, by any means necessary, with no interest in any policy. I fear what will emerge from conservatives should Trump lose, it seems there will only be a doubling down on the same strategy.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:46, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

To predict what a post-trump right would look like, the last time Republicans had a historically humiliating presidency, the Bush 43 administration, they just re-branded a platform that was still the same far-right poison with the tea party. Since it seemed to work pretty damn well last time, they may just try the same thing again, especially because Biden and Obama are very similar.-Flandres (talk) 16:51, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Relevant:

— Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:03, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, if anyone would be credible on who is and is not worse than Hitler, it would be a guy who named his organization after the group that carried out the genocide of the Armenians, the genocide of which may have inspired Hitler due to the lack of international action during and after the whole thing in spite of 1) the victims being predominantly Christian 2) the perpetrators being predominantly non-Christian, and 3) the country doing so had no major allies to assist should any other major world power attempt to intervene. And then he's interviewing the guy who routinely denies genocides if they happen to be committed by people opposed to the US, so he's clearly a credible expert on the matter.

Or, you know, yawn... CoryUsar (talk) 21:08, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

"a guy who named his organization after the group that carried out the genocide of the Armenians" this is false. he named it after this: [1]

an insurgent in a political party, especially one belonging to a group or faction that supports liberal or progressive policies; also young Turk, young turk: any person aggressively or impatiently advocating reform within an organization.

Or do you think

Rod Stewart is denying the Armenian genocide, too? @CorruptUser — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 23:06, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Or maybe Rod Stewart didn't know the history? It's forgivable to not know of major events in other countries, less forgivable when it's your own country. I mean, how many people today wouldn't think twice about a "national socialist" party until someone reminded them what the nickname for them was? Not too many in Germany itself. Cenk is not only from Turkey, he was on record as having denied the Armenian Genocide and took until just 4 years ago to admit it actually happened, so he should have known.CoryUsar (talk) 05:02, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

No, it's because the term "young turk" has a meaning that is completely dissociated from the genocidal maniacs in Turkey. And yes, Cenk has denied the Armenian genocide in the past, but the naming of TYT has no bearing on it. He named it after the the term "young turk" meaning "progressive". He has since multiple times acknowledged that the Armenian genocide is real.

— Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 06:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

After Day 1

It's clear the GOP is convinced Trump is Warrior Emperor President-RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:58, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

After Day 2

Well, the GOP can literally never ever accuse anyone else for violating the Hatch Act. Also someone needs to take Abby Johnson's' children away from her.RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:57, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

There really need to be consequences for violating the Hatch Act. This shit is horrifying. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 16:58, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

After Day 3

The entire GOP lives in a totally different reality, which is not really new, but is especially distressing considering Covid is killing 1,000 people a day. More distressing is Tucker Carlson actually providing a fascist defense to a 17 year-old crossing state lines to murder two people and Ann Coulter rolled out of her coffin to support the murderer for President.RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

After Day 4

This is going to be an ugly eight weeks. -RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:35, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, either outcome, this is probably going to be an ugly few years.-Flandres (talk) 21:39, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Biden's lead in the polls has collapsed - not looking good for the democrats!

Looking like four more years of the Trump Administration. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:ACBA:D426:2C10:9FA3 (talk) 05:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Nate Silverman's poll agregator on five-thirty-eight (which is one of the most sophisticated) has shown no change over the last two months showing an 8-10% lead since June 15th. In any case...even if they were neck-in-neck at the moment (which they aren't) it is pointless to make confident predictions at the moment. There are still three presidential debates to go and over two months of campaigning where anything can happen (gaffes or other huge mistakes, a policy fuck-up, a huge change to the economy etc). Any of those things can quickly radically alter everything. Looking at your source Boingo has simply used selective polls without properly weighting them. Also, Boingo is a fucking biased spin-meister-punter. ShabiDOO 05:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Boingo knows what he is talking about. Not looking good for Biden! 2001:8003:59DB:4100:ACBA:D426:2C10:9FA3 (talk) 05:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Trump only won as an outsider after 8 years of incompetence, but now that Trump's had 4 years of utter shitfuckery, even Biden looks good by comparison. The whole QAnon conspiracy is proof that Trump is awful. How? Well, Q is making up something worse than Trump, and they are basically admitting the only thing that could possibly be worse than Trump is a Satan-worshipping pedophile. I guess that, yes, Trump is marginally better than someone who will rape a kid to death in the name of Satan, I guess, but if Trump were any better then Q would only need to make up a story about Biden lying to get a purple heart.CoryUsar (talk) 06:01, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Joe Biden didn't serve in the military so obviously he doesn't have a purple heart medal. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:ACBA:D426:2C10:9FA3 (talk) 08:38, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

All of what y'all said is so delusional and disconnected from reality I am honestly concerned for your well being.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:53, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I’d disagree with CoryUsar’s description of the 8 years of the Obama presidency as ”incompetence”, as I think that ”disappointment” is closer to the mark. I don’t consider Obama to have been incompetent; he simply wasn’t the transformative POTUS that a lot of people expected him to be and when it turned out that his ambitions for his presidency was basically being something like Bill Clinton 2.0, many voters were disappointed. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:12, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems to be a recurring cycle in the USA. I see the Obama administration as a tragic missed opportunity, albeit I can cut him some slack given his circumstances. I have a feeling future generations will pay the price for what Obama chose, for whatever reason, to play "kick the can" with.-Flandres (talk) 15:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

My arse

I saw a Twitter user named "lyssa ms deep dish" who said that the T in Lgbt+ sould not be there since it's a gender thing. She even retweed a reply saying, and I quote, "T shouldn't exist period so they just picked a wave to hop on". Fucking hell.--Delibirda (talk) 09:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, apparently the Stonewall riots (which led to LGBTQ+ rights becoming an actual issue) were started in part by a trans woman. Transphobes aren't exactly the smartest. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 09:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Of course, they aren't. Also, these people shouldn't be included because "it's a gender thing". Gender thing my ass.— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 11:52, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Serious question. What is the typical orientation of a transgender person? I mean, are trans women typically into women, men, bi, what? CoryUsar (talk) 14:43, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm confused: Gay and lesbian are genders according to that person? Mind blown. Not to speak for all, but all three trans people I know are mostly into the gender opposite their reassigned gender.McUrist (talk) 14:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

[Note, cis guy, but my ex was trans for a while] Probably as diverse as cis people. That said, if you're dating someone who is trans, you're dating someone who is the gender they transitioned to. So if you're dating a trans man as a guy, you're in a gay relationship, if you're dating a trans woman as a guy, you're in a straight relationship. If you're dating an non-binary person... some people say pan/bisexual, there's a fringe term on our page on enbies that I don't think has caught on at all, but I'd just ask in that situation because enbies always make this convo far harder than it needs to be (this is in a joking way, if you're enby, that's perfectly ok and I don't mean to disparage you). Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 14:50, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

But were those trans people already attracted to the opposite sex before becoming trans? Ok, ambiguous. I mean, if a man was attracted to women, but then he finally realized that he doesn't have to feel guilty about being happy and so he becomes a trans woman, is she likely to still be attracted to women and thus now a lesbian, or is she now likely to be attracted to men instead?CoryUsar (talk) 15:27, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It's safe to say they don't undergo magical preference changes when they transition. If they were gay before they transitioned, they are now straight, as they are the other gender and they probably still have the same preferences. McUrist (talk) 06:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I find it's best to stay off twitter. It doesn't pay.Ariel31459 (talk) 16:54, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I could not agree more. Coming from someone whose professional work involved a notable amount of time in Twitter, I think that the universe would be a significantly better place without it's existence. Except for a few niche topics that might have on the average constructive amount of content, in general, for 99% of what goes on with the site...the world is an immensely poorer, dishonest and less intelligent place with twitter. It will rot your mind and rearrange your brain in a way that's quite bad for you. ShabiDOO 17:20, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Was it corporate outreach or something? Could you not say "we would be better without" to most/all social media? Is twitter even the worst? My nan now thinks the EU wants to start WW3 and Tommy Robinson is a saint and I'm pretty sure that's a result of facebook exposure. If anything the crazies on twitter are shifting the overton window a little more towards the centre. McUrist (talk) 11:07, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes I would agree that the world was an entirely better place before social media in general. I think the very very little value you could get from facebook could easily be done via the image sharing websites that came before, stumbleupon (to find interesting articles about ideas you cared about) and email chains which worked just as effectively for joke sharing etc. I truly believe that social media has become an epic time waster, has utterly toxified the internet and along with the much much much much worse shit-dumpster that are comment sections, has shifted the weight of collective information from the learned and experts and knowledgeable to the "whoever yells out the loudest, can collect the most followers or has the catchiest most overbearing opinion". If social media disappeared overnight, just about everything except social media influencers and social media jockeys's lives...would substantially improve. ShabiDOO 19:43, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

History merges disabled

There was gossip that some unnamed foolish person was considering doing a super-disruptive MediaWiki history merge on RW, to throw a tantrum.

These are a nuisance, because they're one of the few administrative actions in MediaWiki that are almost impossible to untangle.

So on an emergency basis, I've disabled the mergehist power for now. Like, not even I can. (I thought I'd left it enabled for techs, but I've got tech and it's not working for me ...)

Obviously, if I'm going to do something so silly as to use the power of root on the server, the mob needs to know and discuss what should happen going forward. Like, do we do history merges a whole lot? I must admit I haven't kept track.

Please discuss. Yr. Obdt. Svt., David Gerard (talk) 23:09, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I haven't seen a lot, if any history merges in my time spent here (and that's since, what, 2015 or so?). But I still think given our archival process has been overwhelmingly copy-paste, so I can see a use for history merges to keep the fossil records of archives easily accessible rather than be composed of just one giant edit creating the archive. That's going to be a ton of work, but... --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) What is there to gain by "history merges?" I assume that this means merging page histories?-Hastur! (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's Wikipedia's documentation of the action for an idea how they're used in Wikipedia. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 23:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I've done some over there, and they're usually very easy to do (every once in a while there's a complicated situation, though that's rare), but if you mess it up it's a bitch to fix; you have to manually reassign all the revisions to the right titles. Good not to take chances with that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Feinstein Says China Is ‘Growing Into a Respectable Nation’ As it Continues Persecuting Christians, Muslims

Californian democrat Feinstein Says China Is ‘Growing Into a Respectable Nation’ As it Continues Persecuting Christians, Muslims. She is a shit politician! 2001:8003:59DB:4100:FD1B:6E9A:AF2E:1B0 (talk) 06:41, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed, but her attitude is basically similar to how the US and EU have dealt with China for decades: “Shut up and take my money”. The main difference is the hypocritical “critical dialogue” media theatre which is more prevalent in the US and of course the outright faux China bashing by certain politicians who have no qualms about making money trading with China when they aren’t loudly denouncing them. Oh, and the extreme hypocrisy of otherwise Islamophobic loudmouths suddenly championing the plight of the Uighurs. ScepticWombat (talk) 06:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

So, it's like an american "and you are lynching Negroes."(for those who don't get the reference, that's an old soviet expression)-Flandres (talk) 15:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I would care, but considering the GOP is led by someone who actively encouraged and supported concentration camps. I think it's probably fair to ignore this as misquoting.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:17, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

What

Everytime my name autoappears on this site(like the bar) besides my name there is always a "fake name" besides it. Can it be fixed?--Delibirda (talk) 09:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

have you tried this?

Remember to sign and not add spam.--Delibirda (talk) 09:29, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I still need help--Delibirda (talk) 09:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

You probably have the JS gadget turned on that notifies you if there's a text snippet that is replaced by your name automatically. You can turn it off in the Preferences -> Gadgets tab. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 12:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I came here expecting Antimasker Karens, got anti-BLM propaganda

Gee, thanks, Reddit. Guess I'll just stick to browsing Dankruto.Metazero (talk) 15:29, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Do not go to r/banvideogames. That is either a satirical account against games or an actual subreddit by technophobic Trump supporters. Recently, they blamed gamed for the riots.— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 16:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Holy shit. Metazero 16:24, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I think that subreddit got yeeted St.~Emi (talk) 17:29, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

r/banvideogames is a joke sub iirc made by some GCJ people. Frankly, I just don't find it that entertaining if the joke is made that obvious, but dumbasses do keep falling for it I guess. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 19:05, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I have an inherent mistrust of joke subreddits just because of their tendency to be taken over by the people they mock.-Flandres (talk) 19:06, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Anyone else been experiencing this?

I can’t read the news anymore bc every time I do it’s like I’m having a flashback to a really bad acid trip, I just feel this suffocating fear and terror swallowing me and I often end up in a foetal position just repeating “oh fuck. oh christ” over and over again lmoa 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 12:08, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

(I mean I don’t really curl up into a foetal position, that’s slight hyperbole, but I do get suffocating panic attacks and the same feeling of absolute unending horror that a bad trip gives you) 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 12:16, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

By "bad trip" do you mean taking a little too much of the good stuff? Fowler (talk) 13:04, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Trump, Brexit, anxiety and the importance of unplugging from the 24-hour news cycle — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 13:09, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

You've killed him her! Fowler (talk) 13:14, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Don’t worry she’s still alive lmao. Also @GR thank u for the link. Also also @Fowler it’s not so much taking “too much” that I mean, bc I’m very habituated to rather high doses (I pretty much never take less than 200ug of acid, and usually take 400+ ug). However I’ve had quite a few experiences where I get suffocated by this sense of terror, anxiety, despair, rage, etc. Like a black mass in my chest. That’s been showing up without the good shit these days tbh which is quite odd bc I’ve never really had any flashbacks at all before and haven’t tripped in 6 months. But yeah I’ll try to chill a bit tbh. Just had to get this off my chest 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 06:59, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Fucking hell, you've been in the shit. Fowler (talk) 12:55, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure have lmao. God talking about it makes me wanna trip again real bad tbh I miss that feeling. Highest dose I’ve ever done is like, 850-900 ug or something??? That was A Lot of fun tbh. Fuck it I gotta get back into it 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 05:41, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

If you doubt the Bible, you're doubting God…

… because the Bible is the Word of God.

This and (much) worse -slippery slopes about "gender ideology", radical (for them) feminism, euthanasia, and abortion, to disparage either other faiths or skepticism, an astounding ignorance of the simplest science, and way more on Fundie radio stations.-

You know, it is a pity it is very hard to cite such stuff there. Otherwise FSTDT would grow quite much. Panzerfaust (talk) 20:40, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

which version? Aloysius the Gaul

Maybe we don't doubt the existence of god, but we don't believe that all of his words are true. After all, as the creator of everything that means he invented lying as well, and a liar will still insist they are always telling the truth. CoryUsar (talk) 21:26, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Not sure the edition, but given the place likely the 1960's Reina-Valera. Remember also this: Isaiah 45:7. Panzerfaust (talk) 08:34, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

check in with the word "presupposition" It's a backwards argument to say disbelief in the Bible is disbelief in God. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:51, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

From Spencer's 1884 to Orwell's 1984

A great essay from Henry Hazlitt, courtesy the Mises Institute. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:2C86:8D7B:4760:5152 (talk) 02:57, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

An alternative title would be “In Praise of Social Darwinism”. An ideology that of course sounds great, if you’re a wealthy, well ensconced member of a “think” tank like Mises; not so much if you’re the 90-odd percent of the population unlikely to be able to lord it over the rest in Herbert Spencer’s/Hazlitt’s vision of society. His horror over housing standards and publicly funded research probably sounds bizarre to most people who aren’t multi millionaires or paid to push their views.ScepticWombat (talk) 06:08, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I often wonder how much those people would last in such a society before someone else smarter and/or stronger came along and put them with the rest of the plebs (being merciful). Either that or being among the first ones to be put against the wall if it came through a revolution. Panzerfaust (talk) 08:30, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Those who glum onto the various shades of Social Darwinism tend to have extremely high opinions of themselves and their own talents (cf. Ayn Rand), but I doubt any of them would last long if it was put into practice, apart from continuing their current function as ass kissers and hagiographers of the wealthy and powerful, of course. I find the libertarian shade of Social Darwinism to be especially shallow and the writings filled with clichés and unfounded Panglossian cornucopianism while being very short of historical knowledge and insight. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

It’s also quite ironic and possibly very telling that a lot of these libertarian Social Darwinists seem to have little actual personal experience with a free market, the financial backers being rich oligarchs who would really like to be monopolists and the talking heads being part of a patronage system of wingnut welfare and protected specialisations. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:48, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Has William James done any wrongs?

I was studying for the SAT with a book, and a practice reading discussed James' idea of Pragmaticism. I've found myself greatly exploring and practicing pragmaticist thought, as it's helped me discover debunkings for crank ideas. As James has been the father of American psychology and a great philosopher, I do wonder, did he ever do any significant wrongings in his lifetime? Metazero 16:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Not that I know of. He did have a viciously sarcastic edge to his sense of humor. My favorite story has to do with his interaction with the famous psychologist G. Stanley Hall. James was to appear at a gathering one evening at the home of the newly appointed president of Clark University in Worcester, Massachusetts. Now, Professor Hall was a firm believer in selective breeding and forced sterilization, so I guess there's that. Hall was also well known as a relentless fund raiser, ad nauseam. So, this one evening, as professor Hall greeted his guests at the front door of the President's House, Professor James said to him, "I have some papers here that I think will interest you," and reaching into an overcoat pocket, James withdrew a hand full of paper currency. It was reported that Professor Hall was not immediately amused. Ariel31459 (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Tucker Carlson is so close

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GozPhZq_S2k

Except every time he says "That's what they're telling you" replace it with "That's what I'm telling you" and maybe, just maybe he's crying for help. The death of the middle class is the scary talking point, and he has to write and deliver an essay on it, and holy shit, he can't separate it from the race and class divides? ? But that's the job, it better had not be racism, Tucker, that would give Grandpa fits and it had better not be us exactly stealing the money. Keep them mad, Tucker, don't expose us, Tucker. OK, Dig Planned Parenthood one time that's the team. This is a cry for help. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 03:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

The ads have gone from Trump to Epoch Times over here. Who gets money from people crying about white privilege and systemic racism? Fox News, for one. Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:23, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

You are already dead

It was from a book about the logical conclusion of Nihilism called Nihil Unbound, though I can't speak to whether the conclusion follows:

"He demands that metaphysicians push nihilism to its most obvious conclusion: that extinction retroactively annihilates all meaning. He pierces into the depths of the bleak void of nothingness, stares at it in the eyes, and returns to tell us that extinction has “always already occurred.” We are already dead. First of all reader, you must know that in “one trillion, trillion, trillion (10^1728) years from now the accelerating expansion of the universe will have disintegrated the fabric of matter itself, terminating the possibility of embodiment”. Not only does this imply that life, thought, space, and time will perish, it also logically proves that it has already happened. As Brassier puts it “everything is already dead”. The extinction of all has “retroactively” annihilated everything. This post-asymptopian state of “eternal and unfathomable blackness” already encompasses all diachronic events and forces us to confront implications that are far beyond them. Extinction pervades the present by encompassing “a future that has already been, and a past that is perpetually yet to be”. This eternal, ever-expanding nothingness is the only thing that exists. That is to say everything is already nothingness."

I mean yes eventually everything will fade but it hasn't yet, and that does make everything meaningless and everything is not already nothingness. Oh I also found a link that sheds a little more light on this: https://newhumanist.org.uk/1643Machina (talk) 22:25, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

LOL. I read the first sentence and I knew it was you Machina who posted this. Yes...just because it is quite possible that in this universe at least eventually it will be impossible to conscious life to exist (or any remnants of it) and that meaning, at that point, will be stuck in the past forever. But you are right, in the mean time that doesn't negate meaning being meaningful now. Not at all. I'd say that this theory is a kind of thinking even more pessimistic than Schopenhauer. I would even argue that if a universe only had one planet to ever host sentient life and if that sentience had emerged and only existed in a state capable of creating meaning for 10 years and was then wiped out forever by a supernova...then the universe would still be one that had some subjective meaning that emerged somewhere (however briefly) and I would say it would label that universe as one that possessed meaning (even if it didn't reverberate anymore throughout the universe forever in any way that propagated that meaning). That would distinguish it from those universes (if there are any) that never did have any meaning at all. I know it seems like a trivial "quality" for a universe to have, but, you know, at least there is that. High five for the universe we live in. You know...we ought to give it a name. ShabiDOO 23:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

It goes right off the rails. "It will happen which proves that it already happened" is the most nonsensical brainless antilogic in the world. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 00:52, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I mean I think it makes sense in an inevitable sort of way.Machina (talk) 19:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Nani? Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 00:54, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Indeed ikanreed. That's not to mention the general claim that confronting "faith" with "reason" hasn't been met much success. I would beg to differ when it comes to the increasingly faster drips of people abandoning their faiths in the western world. That being said I fail to see how his method of confronting "faith" will be any more successful. People, abondon your religion and give into the soul sucking meaninglessness of our near extinction. Realism will save us. LMAO ShabiDOO 01:07, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Machina, I'm already dead, sure, that's not the point. Qualifying time and death, I'm already dead, it's inevitable, boo scary ghost. Not just dead but forgotten. What is it you want to do? I could schedule an oil paint remote thing, or I could fuck up and bow out of a recording, I could do a big hike. But I'd like if you knocked off the idea that an inevitable end dismisses that shit, because dismissing that shit is not what you are trying to do. What do you want, what can you and I do together? Gol Sarnitt (talk) 04:06, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Maybe this is all to subtle for me, but if we are already dead then who is having this conversation? And if we are able to have this conversation and act while dead then death is meaningless. Hooray!Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 07:35, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Zack Snyder agrees. https://youtube.com/watch?v=gY7EnEuqb7M 46.208.88.225 (talk) 07:47, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I thought this was going to be something to do with that idea that reality isn't really reality, it's just a computer simulation. Something I know Machina has brought up before. That could mean that we, as characters in a computer game, are based on real people who've been dead for thousands of years. That's probably just giving the miserable git something else to mope about. Spud (talk) 10:03, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I think it’s based on that thought experiment where you know your gonna die in 30 days so it feels like it’s already happened since it pervades your present. Though that still doesn’t explain how knowing it will all end eradicates meaning.2600:387:9:9:0:0:0:19 (talk) 19:17, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

My Thoughts on 2020

Honestly, I'm probably not the only one thinking this, but I just feel like it needs to get out there. I feel like people are complaining about 2020 too much, or seeing 2020 as the "bad guy".It is unfortunate that so many people are dying.And that's the thing: This is an sad experience that everyone will have to learn from. It's been quite a while since something of this scale has occurred, but this is spreading all the new technologies that were in the Wired magazines being ignored for years on end. We can't grasp on to tradition so hard, as we need to adapt and utilize the things we have. I hope that it'll get better soon, and that it is a common goal to come out of this with a newfound understanding of our world and to understand that we can't let the things happen that led to this. tl;dr: People need to quit complaining about 2020 being an "evil" year, and try to participate in order to prevent similar things from occurring, i.e.: voting, educating oneself, etc. Hope this isn't misinterpreted.Metazero 00:40, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

It’s not the year’s fault. It’s our brainless piece of shit conservative politicians who hate America and the poor. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 00:57, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

When President Trump wins re-election things will get better. The Best Is Yet To Come. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:C0D7:9881:3B7F:1434 (talk) 02:42, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Your claim does not reflect reality. —cosmikdebris ^talk stalk 03:02, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I'll just put it out there that, for my own personal reasons, I hated this rotten year from literally the start (seriously, driving other people to their vacation at 3 AM on New Years Day is quite a beginning, then having all the people who call you friends actively shun you and losing Don Larsen and Neil Peart within days of that). I've actually profited a lot off this year, since when no one else would I threw myself into the line of fire at the height of COVID in New England, and it's still as hollow as ever. It's a fiction of our time to believe in progress, most of history consisted of people pining for an equally fictional imaginary golden age. As a wise trio from Canada once said, "We can only grow the way the wind blows on a barren weathered shore, we can only bow to the here and now or be broken down blow by blow." No one ever guaranteed life would be good, what's the use in expecting it to be? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:20, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I don’t see the issues of 2020 and COVID-19 having much to do with the gadgets and gewgaws featured in Wired. This crisis isn’t about a lack of implementation of technology but about the ability and willingness of the state to act to protect and insure its citizens during a health crisis and cushion them from the brunt of the economic impacts.

This is why you can see that, after the first couple of failures to take COVID-19 seriously enough (Italy being a prime example), those countries that feature a decent social safety net and have a reasonably well functioning public sector apparatus are able to weather the storm somewhat better. Unfortunately, the US is not one of those countries. What is even more baffling to this outside observer is that rather than finally killing off the neoliberal paradigm that the GFC and the Great Recession demonstrated was bankrupt (morally and literally), COVID-19 seems to lead some Americans to double down on attacks on the public sector.

It seems that unscrupulous demagogues are once again able to harness what I call “the politics of spite”. This is using the miserable circumstances of one group to make it attack another, less miserable group, rather than using the disparity to lift up the disadvantaged group. It is one of the tactics used against unions (“Why should they get better benefits and pay than me?”) and, as US private sector employment has gradually ceased to offer the various benefits and prospects that was once part of the post-war US labour market, has been turned on public sector employees (“Why should they have good jobs with pensions and benefits when I don’t?“).

The politics of spite exploits the psychological mechanism known in German as Schadenfreude (finding joy in other people’s misery) that gives us pleasure in punishing unfairness, even to the extent that we ourselves get hurt (the phrase “cutting of your nose to spite your face“ springs to mind). The same mechanism punishes social transgressors of fairness as demonstrated through experiments such as the ultimatum game and have even been shown to exist in lower primates (capuchin monkeys evince similar patterns of behaviour). It can be used to motivate people via “my life and prospects suck, so why should anyone have it better?” into a destructive impulse that can be very useful for what Thomas Frank aptly termed “the wrecking crew” (the title of his 2008 book that was subtitles “how conservatives rule”). ScepticWombat (talk) 06:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Not to get too personal, but. I flew to the US to b with my partner over Christmas/New Years. On the New Years countdown they were too sick to celebrate with me (not with the Coronese Virusese, just the flu). I knew shit would b bad when that happened. Then the whole Iran assassination happened, I couldn’t get back to my university classes and they broke up with me. Then the virus. Coinkidink???? Absolutely not. 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 06:22, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, seeing 2020 as the bad guy because of COVID smacks of recentism. The WWI flu happened merely a century ago, which is not that long in the timescale of human history. It's weird to think something like that couldn't happen again in our lifetimes. That's also not getting into SARS, MERS, Ebola, which gives the impression that COVID is a bigger deal because it's affecting white people (incidentally, South Korea has done relatively well because of their MERS experience).

If you ask me, the real takeaway is that the COVID disaster is fundamentally a failure of preparation. Before COVID, people (in the US and Canada at least) were expected to come to work with a cold even though the sensible thing to do would be to stay home and prevent further spread. We've tied basic needs to work even though we have the resources to provide a basic income, and treated work with such religious reverence that something that stops work screws up the economy and people's financial security. COVID case counts by country generally have reflected each country's healthcare and disaster preparedness infrastructure, and the US doing worse than even developing nations goes to show that the country was already a house of cards ready to collapse.

Also, I've been reading a lot of accounts from people with physical and mental disabilities, and there's a general sense that such people feel they are better prepared to mentally handle COVID isolation than most because it's already close to the life they were forced to lead anyway. Not saying that COVID stress isn't valid, especially considering the financial insecurity part, but it certainly put things into perspective for me. Colossal Squid (talk) 18:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

FWIW I can soooorta verify the disabled covid stress thing; I have intense constant chronic pain, and a variety of mental things that make me extremely reluctant to go outside/travel/talk to people/etc. I will say that I handled it better than most people I think, or at least I lasted longer before losing my shit. But eventually I started losing my shit anyway, not just because of the isolation thing — although I will say that being forced to not participate in things feels way worse for me than just choosing not to. The biggest things for me were the stress of seeing the world going Down the Shitter, and also worrying about ducks dying bc I’m quite possibly immunocompromised. But anyway, yeah, I handled the covid stress better than most ppl I know, although the Other Shit that happened both in the world and my personal life definitely made the stress much worse. 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 18:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Switching to Linux

So I like the whole idea of Linux. Except. Idk how tf to code or really do computers at all. Been thinking of switching but also nervous. Can anybody please help me find some kind of guide that’s in Simple Language? And also, I can’t seem to find a str8 answer. All my old programmes and so on, especially DAWs. Do those still work? Thanks 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 07:04, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Ubuntu is the go to introduction to Linux cause it's familiar to windows users. There you can learn to install programs via the terminal and tweak the settings. From there you can the move onto more advanced Linux distributions going all the way to Poeteus (a fairly advanced distro which will require a steep learning curve). You don't need to know how to program to use Linux though if you learn Python you can easily write scripts which you can then get up to all sorts of trouble making with in Linux. Ubuntu is super easy to install and there's tons of easy to follow I structuring on how to do anythi g. Their website explains it all. ShabiDOO 07:59, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

Get manjaro, it's become the better choice over Ubuntu for the last few years. Grab a live image and try out one of the Desktop flavours. (top tip, work out the version of windows your target machine was factory installed with and keep note, you might need to edit the grub command on the live usb with "acpi_osi=Windows_2018" or similar. (there's a long runnign acpi issue with kernel 5+ Ubuntu can't fix it, nor arch at present. It's not fatal, it can be masked over. But the acpi_osi=Windows_2018 or similar edit will allow newer machines to correctly launch xorg or wayland, depending on the distro. But, from my pov, after years of distro hpping from Ubuntu to pclinxos to gentoo to arch back to ubuntu and mint with stop overs in Fedora and opensuse, this https://manjaro.org/download/ has been the most consistently stable, up to date and sane version of linux (i'm hooked on aur via yay) I have ever used in my 15 years of linux usage.) Cardinal Chang (talk) 09:37, 23 August 2020 (UTC)

I very much disagree that manjaro is the optimal first Linux distro a user who is uneasy with trying Linux should use. I agree its become popular and has its perks but I think Ubuntu (or Lubuntu if you have an old computer) is simply far far far more user friendly for the first time user. The software centre is very easy to use and there are way more tutorials and resources for beginners on how to use it. I'd also recommend taking it easy on the jargon when explaining things to a non-linux user. I can assure you most of the above paragraph would be overwhelming and confusing to them. I also had a horrendous experience using Manjaro with a 32 bit computer and I would only recommend ever using Manjaro with a 64 bit machine. Penguinsfunnylolhaha, I'd recommend just trying Ubuntu first as its easy to install and use with tons of simple tutorials on how to do things and from there you can try other distros like Manjaro. If you have a really old computer try Lubuntu (its the lightweight fast version of Ubuntu). If you have any questions just ask. ShabiDOO 04:23, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

im sure linux is great and all, i was kinda interested in it before the likes of google and facebook supplanted microsoft as the number one orwellian evil tech empire, but i lost interest because despite all the issues i had with windows, it at least worked out of box. you just cant say that with linux. even ubuntu was such a ballache to get even a basic level of functionality it was just not worth the effort for anything that i needed to do with a computer. AMassiveGay (talk) 05:15, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Thanks everyone. @Shabidoo, I actually do have a question real quick. I have to be on my computer most days for uni shit, so I was wondering how long does the whole installation process take, and can I use my computer for any of it? If it helps my computer is fairly new (only got it a few months ago), has I think 512GB storage and 16GB RAM. Also running whichever version of Windows 10 it would be running, not sure specifics, and it’s 64bit. Thanks a bunch! 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 10:12, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Installation from a live media allows you to use your pc for most things (saving files might be a problem) but overall, everything working as it should installation takes no more than ten minutes, a bit more if you are downloading latest versions of installation files. In regards to issues people have faced, it's a case of driver support and openness really. But there a plenty of resources to help https://www.lifewire.com/ways-to-know-whether-ubuntu-linux-will-run-on-your-computer-4077894. Personally, I still stand by my preference of Manjaro over Ubuntu for first time use. Although it might have something to do with liking Plasma/KDE5 over Unity. Cardinal Chang (talk) 13:28, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Addendum, search google for forum results regarding your Laptop model and Ubuntu, most things should work, but there's always something you don't expect. Cardinal Chang (talk) 13:30, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Others beat me to it but: The installation shouldn't take more than a few seconds to a few minutes depending on distro. DSL is something like 50mb, fedora/ubuntu at about 4gb are about as big as they get for desktop distros. You just have to find the space to make the partition. I'd recommend using a separate drive though, just for convenience since windows loves dumping stuff to the os partition so taking a chunk out for linux might annoy you down the road. A good option for just messing around is make a live boot usb and just demo distros.McUrist (talk) 15:19, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘If you're super interested in trying to get into linux, honestly, I'd at least recommend reading this article as to why it's unfit for a desktop OS. That said, if you really want to try it (and hey, I use linux on my laptop, I think it's fitting for my needs, but I acknowledge that my needs may not be yours). When choosing a Linux OS, you're going to want to pick a distro. A distro mainly determines what you have available in your package manager's repositories and what manager you will be using.

That said, here's a few recommendations as someone who has seen a lot of Linux, seen a lot of friends both love and wreck linux to bits, has a few friends who hit random on distrowatch to determine their next OS and so on.

• If you're starting, go for something proven. Ubuntu is the most known, but it has a few notable drawbacks (it's update schedule is horrendous, it often runs outdated tools) that make it not all that great if you care about an OS that doesn't feel like it's 3 years old out of the gate. Linux Mint I've heard recommended for people who are used to Windows, but from what I've seen, I have a low opinion of it. Debian is known for being extremely solid, but it's tools can be several years out of date and they tend to modify them from the release, which might make things awkward sometimes. My personal recommendation is therefore Fedora. It's a really solid, stable OS both for servers and desktops. Updating is probably the most straightforward across the board, it makes running Linux feel like it's own identity, and it actually strives to make it's tools seem up to date every few months.
• You might hear the recommendation for a "rolling release" OS. Unless you're someone who actively enjoys tinkering with your PC, I'm just going to say it now: Don't use them. Rolling release typically means that you're expected to know when things go wrong, aren't afraid to keep an emergency USB key around to possibly get things booting again and they want you to know what you're talking about. OSes that are based around pacman typically fall under this (Arch Linux, Manjaro and Antergos are the main ones).
• Don't install the nutjob distro's. I'm talking about OSes like Gentoo, Nix, Linux From Scratch, Alpine. These distros are not suitable for usage unless you really like tinkering with your PC. Gentoo relies on you knowing how to compile a kernel and almost everything else on your PC, Nix actively replaces the entire OS when you update it in order to repackage it afterwards, Linux From Scratch is more of a dev toy, Alpine is so small it lacks several crucial things you wouldn't even think about that could be missing. Some of these have their uses (except for Nix), but they're very limited.
• Finally, you have to at least be aware of some of the better joke OSes. Hannah Montana Linux is a classic. You also have Red Star OS. Yep, Linux is so popular that North Korea bases all of it's few computers on it (but then they also don't open source it, which makes me grumble). Not to install, but just cuz they're fun.

So yeah, enjoy your pick. I recommend again, Fedora, but honestly, pick your poison. I use Arch Linux myself (or rather, a distro that I installed as manjaro, then I butchered out manjaro and installed Arch Linux over it without reinstalling it, and it's a miracle that this system hasn't shit itself six ways to Sunday). Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 16:40, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Lets say maximum fifteen minutes? You can (and probably should) install it alongside windows (you can have both systems at the same time). It will install something called a "grub" which is basically a little menu that pops up when you start up your computer where you can choose whether to load Windows or the Linux Distro (Ubuntu for example if you choose to install that one). To really get much value out of Linux you'll probably have to invest some time into learning and exploring. Luckily you don't have to choose one or the other (windows vs. linux) and can switch between them as you like or just use one or the other. ShabiDOO 16:47, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Unless you have a PC that can compete with Usain Bolt or are really familiar with the installation process, a typical Linux install takes around an hour for me, 2 if you also count installing basic tools and updating the system. Dunno where y'all are pulling 15 minutes from, but that certainly isn't the time it takes for me. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 16:57, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

In fact with many distros you can actually start it up (takes a couple minutes) and then install it and update it while still using the system. From what I remember Lubuntu took less than 10 minutes to install while the updates were done while I was browsing the web and the software installation could also be done with synaptic manager while I was using the web at all. I was answering his question re: how long will the installation take while I cannot be productive on the computer...not how long does it take to go from having nothing to a fully operational and completely optimised desktop. ShabiDOO 19:26, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

Ah yeah, Live mode takes around 4 to 5 minutes. That said, it's not really meant to be persistent, so I kinda didn't count it. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 19:31, 24 August 2020 (UTC)

As a moderate Fedora fanboy (thank you m'ladies), is there any compelling reason to deviate from Fedora (or even ubuntu)? I haven't had linux on my desktop for a few years now, but I never really understood why there's such a propagation of desktop distros and what I'd get from one that I wouldn't get from the other.

Please sign your comments. Anyway, depends on your target. Arch has probably the most amount of packages available and packaging stuff yourself for Arch is very easy, all it takes is knowing how to do console commands and how to write a certain file. The AUR is also nothing short of incredible. The drawback is that sometimes your system just dies and you need to dig through config files on a rescue disk to repair it. Gentoo has you compile everything yourself, which can bring performance optimizations if you really want that kinda shit, but compiling takes ages and the same goes for updating. Alpine is very small which makes it appealing for containerization, which is common on servers. There is no good reason to use Nix. Debian is older than Ubuntu, has a slower update cycle and generally has packages that are pretty out of date. The advantage is that Debian servers just never really break when you update them, it's their selling point. CentOS is just Fedora for businesses, same for Red Hat Linux. You also have things like Bedrock which is all distros in one (which has it's own fair share of problems) or experimental small stuff like Void, which is mostly fun if you like to experiment, but nothing else. That said, if you're perfectly happy with Ubuntu or Fedora, there's no need to switch. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 19:30, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

Install gentoo, But in all seriousness, I'd recommend going with Debian testing (or unstable if you know how to edit the repository files). It's not exactly fully "noob-friendly" but you still get some knowledge on how to work and handle Free software. Try doing the install process on a virtual machine and if your wifi, graphics, ethernet, etc don't work on your real hardware, then you'll need the non-free iso. I'd like to suggest Ubuntu or Manjaro, but they seem to have gone the corporate route. Rockford the Roe (talk) 07:03, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Requesting feedback/suggestions

For some stuff I intend to propose for the CS. It's in my Sandbox. I'm not proposing anything yet (I'd prefer as much brainstorming as I can out of this/to tackle as much possible in one go, since I know that the community has a general apathy to fixing glaring issues, so that if we're doing it, I'll at least try to do it comprehensively), but I'm trying to find proper answers to the fact that it has become apparent over the past few months that our current CS is inadequate in dealing with specific types of disruptive editors. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 11:05, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

What was that commercial from about 10 years ago?

It involved a red blob, a blue one, and a yellow one flying around the room, mixing together and making something. I can't quite pinpoint what it exactly was. It's possible it wasn't a commercial at all and came from Who Framed Roger Rabbit? but I'm not sure.— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 14:52, 25 August 2020 (UTC)

One of the variants of the Windows logo? Anna Livia (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Abe Resigning

Looks like Japanese Prime Minister Shinzo Abe's resigning. He's been sick for a while now. What do you guys think?Metazero 13:55, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I have a feeling that if I understood Japanese politics better, I'd have reason to hate him, but I don't so I don't. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 14:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

No love for Abe, given he's a right wing nationalist who's part of the bunch of jackasses who want to restore the glory of Imperial Japan and keep Japan in the past. That said, I don't expect him to be replaced by someone better, so the likely result given how this year's been going is they replace him with someone who's an obvious piece of shit, making this a overall negative.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 16:29, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Is Yukio Edano a possibility?— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 17:53, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Highly unlikely, the LDP still has power and will pick the next PM, doubt they'd pick a guy from the opposition party. Their system is similar to the British's parliament system.--NavigatorBR (Talk) - 16:57, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

A few days ago rumours started circulating that Boris Johnson could be about to resign due to health reasons - he apparently has long-term complications from his battle with Covid. Frankly I’d be surprised if it happened, but 2020 is far from predictable so who knows. —RWRW (talk) 18:05, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I was musing on that one. It was a "leak" from Cummings Father and Johnson denied it immediately. Either it's true and Johnson (who were pretty sure never wanted to actually do his job, he just wanted the ego stroke of attaining it) has a convenient excuse to bolt before his stupidity catches up with him. Or it's calculated and this is playing a line of him conquering the disease through his immense willpower. My optimism has got the better of me before, so I wouldn't put money on him resigning, but it would be consistent with his general laziness and stupidity. Plus I'm not sure what this in particular was the dead cat for. McUrist (talk) 20:14, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Noah's Ark and the Rabies virus

Imagine the fun if the Rabies virus showed up on Noah's Ark. No vaccinations, medical treatment, quarantine and plenty of hosts to infect. Lack of nutrition would make the disease act faster. Might make a good comedy horror film. --Possible Goat (talk) 19:19, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Holy shit, I can already imagine it.Metazero 00:08, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

'All the diseases' were in Ark McArkFace, each in its own container. Anna Livia (talk) 16:48, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Mark my words...

The Groyper Army will influence a mass shooting.— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 15:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hasn´t every far right group or subgroup influenced a mass shooting or two? ._. (talk) 19:19, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

A new eponymous law

After the shitshow I made about an eponymous law a couple of months back, I think it's time that I make a new one. Here it goes... "If someone asks, 'Is [X] [Y]', then they mean that [X] is actually [Y}." An example is someone like Pat Robertson saying "Is Christianity Good For Our Society?", where it almost certainly is a "yes" according to Robertson. So, what do you think? (P.S. please call it "Jeh2ow's Law". I don't wanna be doxxed.)— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 03:06, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmmm. Let's see where this takes us:

• Is religion a poisonous toxic brain disease that turns otherwise rational and kind people into cruel sheeple?
• IS the republican party an efficient manipulative disinformation machine?
• It it good public policy that people just wore their fucking masks and shut the fuck up about some non-existant-human-right to be able to do whatever the fuck they felt like all the time?
• Are Korean tacos just the irresponsible addition of fermented cabbage into a food that was doing quite well without it?
• Are left handed people just about the most awesome humans to ever rock this planet?

Well...I simply cannot see how JAQ (just asking a question) somehow implies that the question is really a disguised claim to truth. Ahem. ShabiDOO 03:41, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Religion isn't the root of all evil. Rather, it's a necessary tool in a world where, simply put, not everyone is capable of developing into the higher stages of morality. In a world where everyone is born a fully fledged adult, where no one is intellectually disabled, sure, religion may not be necessary, but we don't live in that world. Furthermore, our ethics themselves are shaped by the stories we hear. The stories in the bible are for the most part good enough, at least as far as can be expected from the Bronze Age, even though we could probably assemble a much better collection today.

The real flaw with religion is that, well, we don't live in a world where people, otherwise rational and capable of ascending to a more morally developed state, react calmly when they find out Santa doesn't exist. CoryUsar (talk) 04:25, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Is the pope Catholic?

Do bears shit in the woods?

Hasn't this been around forever? Spud (talk) 09:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Ehhh...the last 400 years have proven that the secularisation of the West has brought about the greatest freedoms, happiness, scientific and medical progress, kindness and inclusivity the world has ever seen. The fact that some countries have managed to overwhelmingly drop religion and prosper far better than religious countries...say that any country, any people could do it. No group of humans are somehow incapable of this unless the viral brain infection that is religion has so rotted their brains their generation is a lost hope. Fortunately their offspring (or some generations down the road) are not automatic lost causes. It is not a necessary evil...say that to the people of Sweden or the Czech Republic. P.S. the root of all evil is religion and/or non-open societies (for example dictatorships). When the two are combined it is a horror show. A lack of religion is not sufficient to bring about a non-tox8c place to live...it must also be an open-society. ShabiDOO 09:49, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

In point of fact "Betteridge's law of headlines" says something which is close to the exact opposite.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 14:27, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

I think you have it backwards. Being a-religious doesn't make you well off, being well off makes you a-religious.

Consider what the Church used to do, and what is now done by the state. The Church provided education, which is now done by public schools. The Church, via confession, was your only source of mental health, but we now have therapists for such things. The Church provided the only medicine around, but we have modern medicine now. The Church administered charity for the poor and downtrodden, something we have social services for. The monasteries provided research (e.g., Gregori Mendel, Isaac Newton), which was supplanted by the universities. Your social gatherings and events were dominated by the Church, and while it never was the only source, we now have so many options to choose from the idea of Church being one of just a few options seems ridiculous.

What do all of these things that have displaced the Church have in common? They only happen in societies that have enough wealth that the public or private sectors can provide them. CoryUsar (talk) 14:29, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah and secular open-societies generate huge wealth that religious societies never did unless they had some spectacular resource that popped up on their doorsteps (sort of like contemporary Saudi Arabia). Religious schools were not the only source of schooling, non-religious tutors and private/public schools also provided education and christianity was not the only religion. Roman schools were not usually religious institutions (for example). Doctors were not exclusively religious figures (where did you get that idea?). It is a bit of an overstatement to say Christians recieved "psychological support" during the middle ages. Secular open societies provide everything religion did, only better, without the religious baggage and the toxic brain disease resistant to social progress, technological advancement, respect for individual rights and change. ShabiDOO 17:10, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Do you have non-fringe, mainstream citation for your claims? CoryUsar (talk) 19:30, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. All four books on atheism by the four horsement touch on some or all of these themes (God is Not Great, The God Delusion, The End of Faith and Breaking the Spell) and for one more book for a popular audience is Soros's In Defense of the Open Society. Karl Popper's The Open Society and It's Enemies. For specific themes the Oxford Short Introduction series on Humanism and Atheism also cover some of the above themes. The strongest work defending these claims (which shouldn't even be controversial) would be Zuckerman's "Society without God". There is nothing fringe about this. A dispassionate review of the history of secularization and a comparison of secularised Western countries with more religious ones will show a fairly clear correlation between secularization (the diminishing influence of religion) and the betterment of just about everything. ShabiDOO 01:22, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Should I move to Korea?

South Korea. I've been learning the language for a few months now. From what I've heard, some of the older people are more conservative and scared of foreigners, but younger people are generally more open. Metazero 00:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Make sure you know where your country’s nearest consulate is in case someone invades. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 00:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

A few months? Is Korean that easy?-Hastur! (talk) 00:13, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, like, I'm still learning.Metazero 00:26, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Korean is an isolate language. I believe it was created in the 15th century by a Korean Ruler. From what I hear it is very phoenetic St.~Emi (talk) 00:31, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, Sejong. It's sorta hard pronouncing it sometimes, but still fun to learn nonetheless. Metazero 01:06, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Dude if you are gonna move to Korea, make it North Korea. Great place. — Dysk (contribs) 02:44, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I completely agree. Dear Leader always treats his people well. All are well fed under rule of Dear Leader and his dead papa. Long may he reign! Oh, also: South Korea BAD. Do not go there! It is a dictatorship, and everyone is starving! Terrible place, not reccomended by Dear Leader.User:. ./sig 22:13, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

To clarify, hangul is a 15th century invention from Sejeong the Great but didn't actually catch on until the early 20th century; the educated classes preferred using hanja (the hamfisted effort to force Chinese characters onto Korean) because it was a status symbol, which is the same reason why Japanese has never fully converted to hiragana and katakana. Korean is one of the most difficult languages for native speakers to learn (the long pronouns are notoriously hard to acquire; English is actually of similar difficulty for kids because of the /r/ sounds and the infamous th-sounds), but not any easier or harder for any other second language speakers. And yes, Korean is a language isolate; it has more speakers than all other language isolates combined. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 04:46, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@Metazero What race and gender are you? Because South Korea absolutely hates black people, but if you are female you won't have to worry about South Korean children trying to shove their fingers up your butt. However, oddly, more gender equality can be found in North Korea; a guy I know was in the Navy, and he got quite a shock when it turned out the North Korean pilots were women talking about giving blowjobs. Also a good reason to go the North if you are a guy. Plus, as the only non-Korean they will have seen, well, let's just say you would be quite popular. At least until a local male official who wasn't getting any gets jealous and then Nothing Bad Will Happen To You. CoryUsar (talk) 06:10, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm happy to say that in 20 years in Asia (two and a half years in Japan and seventeen and a half years in Taiwan) nobody has ever once tried to stick their fingers up my bum. Spud (talk) 04:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

You don't know what you're missing Spud. ShabiDOO 05:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Cory I'm a Phil-Am male (Filipino on my mom's side). I'm actually pretty impressed that the Thousand Years of Pain Jutsu is a real thing. also in your article that girl in the second picture by the ski lift's pretty cute, but Sshhhhh Metazero 17:02, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

@Blade of Northern Lights Yeah, the "th" sound is hard, and I'm a native English speaker. I needed speech therapy when I was younger to learn how to say it, and I still struggle with it sometimes. I'm very happy that it doesn't exist in my second language (which is French). WhatIsAGoodUsername (talk) 06:18, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

I... don't know how Koreans feel about Filipinos. I guess you should be fine, but not sure. CoryUsar (talk) 19:06, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Controversy over Tom Clancy's new video game

Tom Clancy's Elite Squad portrays BLM as terrorists (by using the raised black fist) that want to built a "new world order" (thus giving it a dash of antisemitism) and typical demagoguery used anything that's remotely progressive.–Tuxer (talk) 18:28, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

So...don't play it? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 19:00, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Who cares? ._. (talk) 19:21, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Video games are forms of media, and media matters, because it influences the popular psyche. It's not simply a matter of "don't play it." — Oxyaena ^Harass 19:54, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Hmm, the raised black fist is a very popular revolutionary symbol. And new world order is not exclusive to the jewish conspiracy. So I'd need strong evidence that this was intentional. Tulpa001 (talk) 20:04, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, though, Ubisoft is the abuse coddler company. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 20:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

The only thing I really have to point out here is that the raised fist in general has been used by almost every revolutionary group out there, ranging from anarchists (which the trailer explicitly used the imagery in reference to) to communists, to white nationalists, to the Black Panther Party. I'd argue that it is a more generic revolutionary symbol rather than an explicit leftist symbol. I think this one is a mixture of unfortunate timing within regards to recent events and a design department half asleep at their computers. That being said, Ubisoft also fell on it's face before with The Divison 2 promoting NRA shit iirc, so they don't have a lot of wiggle room. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 20:14, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Actually, I don't feel the need to worry about popular media I don't already agree with. I'm largely a Benthamite in that regard, and moral panics over video games are traditionally a conservative talking point anyway. The internet equivalent would be feeding the troll. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 20:38, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Nothing about this is moral panic, it's a simple recognition of the powerful influence popular media wields, and how it is important in that regards. Moral panic would be to insist this is entirely evil, the work of the Devil, that it's a harmful influence (no one here is saying that per se, only that the application of certain tropes may do more harm than good). This is simple literary analysis. — Oxyaena ^Harass 09:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Tom Clancy is dead, it's probably just loosely based on a book he wrote. Fowler (talk) 10:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

They stopped basing the Clancy games on books since the early 2000s. "Tom Clancy" is about as indicative these days as "Sid Meier" is to present day Civilization games. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 11:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

The history of how Hollywood helped Hitler and his National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP)

Historians have long known about American companies such as IBM and General Motors that did business in Germany into the late 1930s, but the cultural power of movies -- their ability to shape what people think -- makes Hollywood's cooperation with the National Socialists a particularly important and chilling moment in history. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:1923:8129:92CA:7261 (talk) 06:30, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Neon Genesis Evangelion: The animators must have been on drugs

Not sure how many of you are familiar with Neon Genesis Evangelion but for those of you who are, you have to agree that the animators must of been high on drugs. Funny how the most influential anime in history looked like an animated drug trip. --Possible Goat (talk) 19:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, I *love* Evangelion(though I am also a fan of the super robot genre it kinda is meant to mock)! It is very weird, I agree, but if you want to see something even weirder, allow me to recommend Bokurano or Narutaru(on second thought, actually don't read Narutaru).-Flandres (talk) 19:14, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

They massively overshot their budget, that's why all the later stuff looks as weird as it did. End of Evangelion is the ending when they had budget again, but it's still pretty out there. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 20:35, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh yeah, when I think "on drugs" I also think a dozen 20 second long still frames each episode to hide the tiny animation budget. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 21:16, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Shinji was given a giant kickass robot, but decided to *SPOILER WARNING*. He gets no sympathy from me and I am still angry about the ending. >:( MirrorIrorriM (talk) 21:29, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

I seen the anime, read a spin off manga, seen theRebuild films and I am currently reading the NGE manga. Oddly, I feel a little sympathy for Shinji. Not much though. I do love End of Evangelion, it is better than the two final episodes released beforehand. Now my oldest brother suggested that the alternate reality sequence in the original ending should have been its own anime. Probably will not happen because once the final Rebuild of Evangelion film is done, the original creator Hedeki Anno was done adding on to the Evangelion universe. --Possible Goat (talk) 22:47, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

It's one deep show. Have you seen Paranoia Agent by the late and incredible Satoshi Kon? or Ghost in the Shell Stand Alone Complex (Not that shite cgi heavy version netflix has produced) or Steins;Gate. Awesomes Cardinal Chang (talk) 12:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

IIRC, Neon just tacked on the religious story at the very end (of the creative process, not the anime itself), but it was started as a deconstruction of the Giant Robot genre and written while a guy was in therapy for a psychotic breakdown. Just why are all the pilots young teenagers and how are they bonded to their robots? SPOILER WARNING! As for Paranoia Agent, love that anime. Sure, it's a collection of vaguely related stories, but I love the whole Rashomon-vibe of all the stories. Then there's FLCL, which is a parody of just about every anime produced up to that point (and also some South Park, just for good measure). And then we have One Punch Man, which is both a parody of all other anime and a meditation on boredom. CoryUsar (talk) 15:09, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Not a series, but the movie Dead Leaves is from the FLCL folks and goddamn it might be my favorite animated anything ever. Not for the squeemish though. 138.207.198.74 (talk) 15:49, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of recommendations, if you like series that deconstruct the Super Robot Genre written by troubled writers during a period of great psychological distress, Mobile Suit Gundam and Zeta Gundam would be right up your alley.-Flandres (talk) 15:56, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Goddamn Gundam Wing and Gundam 00, woohoo. I remember toonami in the UK had a show called Martian Successor Nadesico which I enjoyed but never got to complete (due to Toonami disappearing from Sci-Fi)Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:16, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Now a really awesome anime is Attack on Titan. Shinzou wo sasageyo! --Possible Goat (talk) 02:09, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Never got around to watching it. It's been on my to watch list for simply aeons and I can't see it getting moved ahead of Midsomer Murders and Dalziel and Pascoe on Britbox. Cardinal Chang (talk) 13:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

The Republican Party has officially become the embodiment of Ingsoc from Orwell's 1984

https://vote.gop/?utm_medium=ad&utm_source=dp_fb&utm_campaign=20200817_na_gotvabpmi_gop_rnc_ocpmyhsc_bh_audience0092_creative01122_copy00679_mi_b_18-65_nf_all_na_lp0058_acq_conversion_static_1_1_na&utm_content=pol&fbclid=IwAR3IXQeWYu5bfcC-0_2sXjo0Uq3Ld-5t3mfV3VC6bOodl20N9vRqMNbG9vk

The GOP tells its base that mail-in ballots are invalid yet at the same time it contradicts itself by having people request mail-in ballots. If George Orwell was alive, he would likely be horrified that much of his novel came true. --Possible Goat (talk) 00:47, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

What disturbs me is that Trump is still polling 42%, meaning he has most of the Republican base with him. How do they stand with him after things like that?-Flandres (talk) 02:55, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

It is depressing how quickly the GOP has turned into the personal party of Trump with this year’s RNC basically advocating a Trumpian version of the Two Whatevers and abandoning even the pretence of a party political programme apart from electing their designated Great Helmsman. What is even more weird is the success that Trump still has in convincing his base that his faux populism is any more than theatre. The DNC was a study in irrelevant, contentless flummery, but the RNC has been a nightmare of paranoid insanity and messianic strong man pomp. ScepticWombat (talk) 07:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

In my small moments of experience, I feel like one of the things that have been contributing to this heavy support of Trump is the fact that a good portion of his supporters see the other side as Ingsoc, and that they're the "liberating" ones.Metazero (talk) 15:25, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I would imagine such. People forget how easy it is to trick yourself into thinking you are doing the right thing. Furthermore, most Republican voters(in the short term anyway) benefit from most of what Trump does.-Flandres (talk) 15:28, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

The GOP has been playing this game with themselves since Reagan, there is a direct through line of the cognitive dissonance and logical fallacies, to get to Trump. All he has done is supercharged the system. Too many people see politics as sport, where you stick it out with your team, instead of serious consequences of governing, again not something new for the GOP, simply turned all the way to 11 by Trump.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 16:14, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Part of the Republican tendency toward Tribalism can be explained by their party representing the well-off. They are insulated from the consequences of their own stupidity(or at least relativity so compared to the rest of us), so they don't have to think too hard about why they support it.-Flandres (talk) 16:23, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with RipCityLiberal that the antecedents of the various strains of “Trumpism” within the GOP predates the man himself (Nixon’s southern strategy being an even earlier example).

What has changed with Trump is the extent to which the party has become a sort of one-man show to a completely different degree than under Reagan, where the order was presented in the reverse. Back then, Reagan was being presented as the exponent of the line of thought, rather than the current framing of the line of thought being whatever Trump decides on in the spur of the moment (hence my reference to the Maoist Two Whatever’s).

This represents the ultimate “regression” to the arbitrary whims of a single person and thus to authority being more in the vein of Max Weber’s notion of charismaric authority (as opposed to traditional authority and legal authority) and with it the problem of “succession”, once the charismatic leader departs the scene (as well as issues of arbitrariness and inconsistency, if the charismatic leader is as scatterbrained as Trump). ScepticWombat (talk) 20:13, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's some reading material

"Debunking Democracy" by Bob Black. At least try to give it a read before mouthing off. — Oxyaena ^Harass 19:52, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Is there a reason why you are presenting this? I would like to know why you want me (and others) to read this before I do (or don´t). ._. (talk) 20:27, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

It makes for good reading for one, and for two it's an essay on democracy by the political theorist and post-left anarchist Bob Black (who's also a noted postmodernist). Also, please properly indent your comments before posting. — Oxyaena ^Harass 20:29, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Sorry for not indenting, I joined today, and I´m still figuring things out. I´ve never joined a wiki before, which complicates things further. ._. (talk) 20:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Postmodernism is largely opaque intellectual garbage. Bongolian (talk) 07:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

It's still worth reading, as for your blase assertion about postmodernism, I'll leave that up to the reader to decide. YMMV. — Oxyaena ^Harass 08:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Christ that's a painful read and time I'll never get back Cardinal Chang (talk) 13:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Oxyaena, a large part of the problem you have is that you try to shove as much garbage on other people as possible, and I suspect that you also have this problem in real life. If you meet someone and immediately start trying to give them piles of books on Trutherism/Jesus/Anarchism/StarTrek, they aren't going to think "wow, what an intelligent, thoughtful person who wants to help me improve, I should date this person or hire them". No, oh nononono. What they are going to think is "wow, what an evangelical nutjob, I want to stay as far away from this person as possible". People are going to be polite about it, but they are going to blow you off and they won't even tell you why, because being polite is its own form of assholery. Even if you meet a fellow Trekkie and start shoving them all sorts of Star Trek media, they are going to avoid you, because even the most hardcore Trekkies don't want to deal with nuttery. CoryUsar (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

a little unfair seeing as this is the internet which exists specifically to facilitate the sharing of all kinds of wank while simultaneously making it easier to pretend you've watched every cat video your mother sends you but cant talk right now cos you've run out of minutes. AMassiveGay (talk) 17:57, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's me raising a glass in fond memory of the days when your special interest was paleontology. Happier, simpler times - for you, especially, on all available evidence. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 14:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't actually address any of Bob Black's arguments. — Oxyaena ^Harass 15:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

If you sincerely believe he was advancing an argument worthy of further attention, then I'm afraid you'll have to spell it out for me. The fact that "democracy" is poorly defined, and often contradictory in terms of supposed aims and practical outcomes, is hardly news, and has indeed been noted by just about every serious writer on the subject, ever.

Go look at some fossils. See if you can rekindle some of the old magic. Helena Bonham Carter (talk) 16:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

While on the topic of amature Paleontology Oxy, could you explain what that actually means? I'm quite curious. ShabiDOO 17:10, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

meme

I'm sorry, I laughed. Fowler (talk) 11:14, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

god this was so perfectMetazero 13:42, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

The coming collapse of the People's Republic of California

things don't look good in the state of California. Hopefully they will elect a Rudy Gulliani type Republican politician who can turn it around; just like Rudy turned New York City around from shithole to not-shithole. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:9CA3:EB41:E0CF:F965 (talk) 04:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

We get it. 9/11 happened. That's the only positive thing people say about Guliani, because he was mayor during 9/11. Then again, because Shrub was president during 9/11, we should put him in high regard. We don't need another Guliani in California.— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 11:40, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh? This is a Youtube video from Jan 11, 2019 by "The Academic Agent". One of the top voted comments "They will blame donald trump and global warming." The channel seems to be a strong "classical liberal" channel with outputs like "Why Workers Are Not Exploited In The Free Market", "Never Forgive The Democrats or the Media for what they did to Kavanaugh", "Why I'm Against Antitrust Laws", "Ultimate Red Pill Books" (has recommendations from Douglas Murray, Peter Hitchens, and Steven Pinker), "The Language Games of the Left". Cute you call it the "People's Republic of California". --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 16:09, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

"Rudy Gulliani type Republican politician" so a delusional sociopath?-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

"Hopefuwwy they wiww ewect a wudy guwwiani type wepubwican powitician who cawn tuwn iwt awound; juwst wike wudy tuwned new yowk city awound fwom shithowe tuwu not-shithowe" Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:05, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I happen to know Biggus Dickus. He's a fwend of mine. He has a wife, you know. Incontinentia... Buttocks. CoryUsar (talk) 18:05, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

You know shit's about to go down when a trusted member of your flash game Discord server posts this in general

UPDATE: Turns out the guy who posted it just did it as a prank to see how we'd react to it.

We were just randomly discussing Strike Force Heroes when one of the lower mods posts this. Bruh. Metazero 14:03, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

That's part of the trailer for the new CoD game Fowler (talk) 06:02, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Libertarian Party election odds in a nutshell

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iZl5LGornI&feature=share&fbclid=IwAR10cDANiYnri9R1WrQvljHx8HVfTvLbsiDYm1ABYTVBN30eQf4l3AdCnAc

This Robot Chicken sketch is pretty much the truth. Maybe if the GOP goes under then the Libertarians might have a chance of being at least a state governor. --Possible Goat (talk) 20:58, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Sad to say the republican party is no longer the major party floundering and in danger of collapse, even though maybe that'd be a better world if they were. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 21:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Also sad to say- if Trump gets reelected and the US goes further down the crapper, moving to Canada would be my next choice for a life. I am not anti-American by any stretch but it is always good to have a backup plan. --Possible Goat (talk) 00:40, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

You know, the last time a major party collapsed and a new one took its place(Whigs folding in favor of Republicans), it was NOT the reactionary party on the wrong side of history(in this case the Democrats) that was destroyed, but rather the Bi-partisan compromisers running on a bland platform about "ignoring radicals on both sides of the debate and remembering we can all work together as Americans." Of the two parties today, the modern democrats are a lot more like the Whigs than their ancestors.-Flandres (talk) 00:53, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Canadians are always amused when Americans say they are moving to Canada. It isn't particularly easy to get residency and it is quite costly. Or you could live there illegally with no healthcare, license, signed lease in a shitty low paid job being uber careful not to cross paths with cops or break your leg. Not a fun existence. If you're young...go teach English somewhere or do your university degree abroad (you can often stay if you get a job right away...that includes Canada for some professions). ShabiDOO 01:45, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

@FlandresYeah, I've been thinking a lot about the doughfaces, and their unreasonable relevance to modern politics. But you also have to remember that collapse into suddenly having a conscience drove all the right wing psychos completely nuts and led to the biggest mutual slaughter in American history, fully one out of every 50 americans died a violent death in the five years that followed. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 01:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

meme

— 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭 ^{talk stalk} 04:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Ultimate Despair

Looking at the news and on Twitter, I have the feeling that as long as human nature exists, the world will always be crap. Humans are unredeemable. And that puts me in a giant hole of depression. --2600:1700:8D70:6B50:D5CF:7460:34BA:F8D6 (talk) 01:47, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Oh that's an easy outlook to fix. If a base and brutal nature is inherent to each and every human, you should be inspired by the fact that even one person rises above it. To believe that something is bad at the core of humans makes human decency and kindness truly profound. You may not find that on twitter though. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 02:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Honestly, just watch some old TV shows and see how they portray solidly middle-class families as worried about being able to get butter and meat. Now, today, have you ever heard someone complain about not being able to afford a stick of butter? The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 02:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

not so long ago i could not buy flour. i could barely find a tin of baked beans. the shelves were bare for over a month. those shortages were not the result of affordability and were something i personally had never experienced in over 40 years. but even without the extraordinary circumstances we find ourselves in, we have seen the rise of food banks and increases in food poverty, increases in child poverty. thats been all been rising since before the pandemic hit, but now we are looking at a pandemic of evictions and increasing homelessness. and brexit hasnt even kicked in yet.

often times nearing the end of the month, i'd better hope the fridge is adequately stocked because for few days i will not be able afford a stick butter. ive not yet had to resort to the food banks. if things get substantially worse, the humiliation of having to move back in with my parents would at least prevent rough sleeping. in that sense i am fortunate. i have friends and family i can grudgingly tap for help if things got really desperate. i'd rather not have to, but they are there if i must. many people are not so fortunate. more and more people are finding and will be finding they are not so fortunate. some will be the family and friends are the safety net that feckless wastrels like me impose upon. many will have kids to feed as well.

there are probably many complaining of being unable to afford some butter. there are too many complaining of not being able to afford any sustenance at all.

ive got my health. ive been working on it, and ive circling the drain for years, but for now, i still got my health AMassiveGay (talk) 14:24, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Just a simple question...

What's the largest article by byte size?— Jeh2ow ^{Damn son!} 02:09, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Boy have I ever got a built in mediawiki feature for you ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 02:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Jesus Christ you’ve got some Beefy Article Boys here 🖤 ASELA^{និយាយ} 🖤 04:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

unsurprisingly, many of these articles are point-by-point refutations of creationist texts. those fundies sure do make their screeds dense with bullshit... Autumncheney (talk) 17:27, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Discord

I have been taking a break from Discord, but I had to delete my account. Because of that, I will not be chatting there until at least November.--Delibirda (talk) 09:04, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I stopped doing Discord the end of last year. Too much toxicity. --Possible Goat (talk) 12:29, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I will return. It's fun, but I need a break.--Delibirda (talk) 18:31, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

The Democrat National Convention - except it's Black Hole Sun

Enjoy ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:9d9a:ad13:19a:2eeb / talk}

Not any comment here, just making sure that Inferno can archive this. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 11:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Confessions of a Xinjiang Camp Teacher

Qelbinur Sedik reveals the horrors she witnessed in the camps, where she was forced to teach Mandarin in 2017. Abhorrent story. ^{— Unsigned, by: 2001:8003:59db:4100:45ef:d2f2:1d87:dbe4 / talk / contribs}

Not any comment here, just making sure that Inferno can archive this. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 11:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Draft edit

Coronavirus Denialism

I changed the original name to reflect the individual disease (COVID-19) and not the virus family (Coronavirus). That draft could have potential to be a lengthy refutation article similar to the one in response to the Answers Research Journal. --Possible Goat (talk) 02:46, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Isn't the purpose of the Covid-19 page to debunk crankey and conspiracies against the pandemic? There's no need to have a new page for a subject that's already covered.–Tuxer (talk) 09:12, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Tuxer. Denialism is already the focus of our COVID-19 article and I do not think it would make sense to split it into a separate article, as our main reason for covering it, especially once the immediate news value is over, will be the denialism and conspiracy theories surrounding it. Also, because the denialism and conspiracies involved are so varied, I don’t think it will be feasible to do a point by point rebuttal like the one mentioned. ScepticWombat (talk) 09:33, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

I was not the original creator. --Possible Goat (talk) 12:43, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

It can be merged.--Hedvigsen^{Skreonk here} 09:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I just watched Kong: Skull Island.

One of the. Best. Movies. Ever.--Delibirda (talk) 08:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

If constant violence without any sense of a plot is your kind of movie then yeah, it is good. Fowler (talk) 09:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Eh. Making a truly good action film involves using action and suspense and so forth as part of the exposition, for example, Jurassic Park, Terminator II, Aliens, Saving Private Ryan, etc. But, action scenes are EXPENSIVE, so a lot of studios just give us 10 minutes of action with 80 minutes of exposition. If a studio wants to go the opposite route and just give us 80 minutes of action with maybe 10 minutes of exposition, sure, why not, even if the best is the action mixed in with the exposition. CoryUsar (talk) 16:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I am completely unashamed of the fact that I enjoy trash action movies. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 16:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

...why would that be shameful? Movies are, first and foremost, entertainment. Not everything has to be some thought-provoking misery-inducing nonsense, and honestly, anyone who is shaming others for enjoying things is themselves full of deep-seated emotional issues and fears. CoryUsar (talk) 16:26, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

I too enjoy pure fantasy escapism in my movies. If I want real-life horror stories I watch the news.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 16:44, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Speaking of Terminator II, I think that when it comes to the sub genre of (“dumb”/“simple”) Schwarzenegger action movies (and the kind of 1980s and early 1990s style action movie of the likes of Stallone too), then Commando) is probably the archetypical example (ridiculous, paper thin revenge style plot, loads of explosions and shootings, the hero being an one-man army, oodles of cheesy one-liners and so on and so forth, all lampooned in Last Action Hero).

By contrast, both of the original Terminator movies (and I think that the first one has its charms too) and the other movies mentioned by CoryUsar are all examples of films that try to add some sort of more general point(s) via their plots alongside the action.

Nevertheless, I do enjoy Commando for some of the same reasons that I enjoy some of the classic slasher movies (the latter being somewhat lampooned and/or subverted in the first three Scream movies in a sort of parallel to what Last Action Hero did to the 1980s action genre). These reasons include nostalgic memories of having seen these, at the time, very “cool” movies as a child or young adult, combined with the interesting subsequent (meta) layer of the genres’ pop cultural reflections of broader societal trends. ScepticWombat (talk) 20:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Ahhnode managed to get a lot of smart movies in there as well. Conan the Barbarian was actually very well done, and Total Recall is one of the smartest movies made. Plus, Predator, which is a smart (sort of) action movie. CoryUsar (talk) 21:49, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Give me James Bond any day. There's not one I don't enjoy, and a proper Vesper is truly an excellent accompaniment. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Even the one with the invisible car? CoryUsar (talk) 19:15, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Die Another Day is all over the place, yeah, but 1. it came out when I was 11, when gunfights and over the top action scenes seem much more impressive and 2. the first part of it has a lot of subtle references to the books and early movies; since I actually did read all of Fleming's books, that at least is fun to watch and especially when I know nobody else is catching them (Spectre, though also much better, has some of that too). But yeah, I tend to watch just about any other one before that. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 00:31, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Is the new archiver bot working?

Cause the Bar is now at 51 threads and counting, with no archiving in sight. — Oxyaena ^Harass 05:14, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

User:Inferno Bot. It is properly being archived, there's just a very large amount of threads being created in the span of a few days. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 11:29, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Ok, so, um.... 👉👈

It seems like... I have a crush on a youtuber this has been keeping me up at night Metazero 14:07, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Parasocial relationships aren't healthy. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:33, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Is it Rachel Bloom? Because while she has them heavy boobs, you should know that if you cut them open they are just sacks of yellow fat. Overrated.

But anyhoo, the fastest way over... is under. Try to go on a few dates, and you'll forget about the whole thing. CoryUsar (talk) 16:11, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

"Try to go on a few dates"? Not sure if that's happening in a bit.

The YTer in question is Emirichu though, who doesn't have giant boobs (or... "yellow sacks of fat in this case...") Metazero 21:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Didn't mean with her, but with anyone. CoryUsar (talk) 21:43, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

This thread reminds me of a Pondus strip where the boys are discussing the comic characters they would have s## with and one of them would like a round with Grandma Duck and is then sent to the therapist.--Delibirda (talk) 09:07, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

@Ikanreed So THAT'S the official term for the "one-way" relationships people have with celebrities! Finally learned it, surprised you don't see it more often. Especially considering all the stories of celebrity stalkers. CoryUsar (talk) 20:06, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Another simple question...

What is the most heaviest image file uploaded to RW? — 𝗦𝗾𝗿𝘁-𝟭 ^{talk stalk} 04:21, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

A photo of my mother-Hastur! (talk) 05:31, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

It's probably the photo of black sabbath on the metal page. Can we maybe add a photo of Gojira? Just for added heaviness. McUrist (talk) 15:38, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Which Gojira? Because, depending on movie, period, and medium, he's anywhere from 1954's mere 50 meters to the 90's 100 meters to Godzilla Earth, (the canon anime version), who stands at 318 meters and 100,000 tons. This is a significant thing. Kencolt (talk) 23:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Transcend Humanity: Totally does not sound ominous at all

https://www.omen.com/us/en/transcendhumanity.html

“”Humans that have Transcended Humanity through gaming are strongly encouraged to donate their superior DNA for the future of mankind.

This certainly does not sound like eugenics at all (epic sarcasm). I saw an ad for it on YouTube and I was curious- supposedly, it is apparently a system to improve skills using gaming. This program is ran by the HP Computer Company. Maybe I am being paranoid due to how this is worded. --Possible Goat (talk) 20:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

G A M E R S R I S E U P. Metazero 22:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Irony poisoning has hit online stores. It's spreading fast and if we don't flatten the curve soon, Poe's law will end us all. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:55, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

What the hell is it with CTs and "technocracy"?

Literally. EDIT: By CT, I mean dumb fucking piece of shit who spreads bullshit to vulnerable and emotionally scarred people to scare them and make them into dumb fucking pieces of shit too conspiracy theorist Metazero 16:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

No idea what CTs are. In context, it's clear you don't mean computed tomography, which is the only acronym I personally know for those letters. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 17:15, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

CT = Conspiracy Theorist Nowhere Man (talk) 18:01, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

At a guess, Conspiracy Theorists (Wonder if there is a silent u and n in the middle. The meaning wouldn't change. )Cardinal Chang (talk) 18:02, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Some good news

Tom Cotton introduces a bill banning Federal funding to teach the ludicrously fictitous ‘1619 Project’ in schools. Good. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:89EA:A9D6:5CD9:82E3 (talk) 06:48, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, calling it the 1619 project minimizes the role of aboriginal Americans. I wholeheartedly agree with you, our education ought to be even more comprehensive than this-Hastur! (talk) 06:50, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

The contrary, and expect more emphasis on American Greatness and American Exceptionalism in Trump's Second Term. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:89EA:A9D6:5CD9:82E3 (talk) 06:55, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

We were definitely pretty great at destroying Native Americans. I look forward to school curriculums educating children about this. And we were one of the last nations to abandon slavery. Arguably exceptional-Hastur! (talk) 06:57, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

one of the last nations to abandon slavery? There are countries today that still practice it! 2001:8003:59DB:4100:89EA:A9D6:5CD9:82E3 (talk) 06:59, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Ah, I see that you're familiar with "The New Jim Crow." I agree, until we abandon prison labor we haven't truly abandoned slavery-Hastur! (talk) 07:00, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Prison labor is not slavery - you're not one of those people who describes working a job as a situation in which a person's livelihood depends on wages or a salary, especially when the dependence is total and immediate as wage slavery? 2001:8003:59DB:4100:89EA:A9D6:5CD9:82E3 (talk) 07:02, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

your response to prison labour being slavery is to insist it is not and that wage labour isnt slavery either? seriously? even ignoring cases where prison labour is forced labour and non compliance is punished by solitary confinement that is a recognised form of torture, and is explicitly mentioned in the 13th amendment as slavery not prohibited by it 'Neither slavery nor involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States', ignoring all that and just looking at run of mill prison labour, its labour that pays so ridiculously far below minimum wage - just pennies (or cents, i suppose) in a situation where inherent power imbalances makes it fundamentally exploitative. prison labour and ordinary wage labour are not comparable. taking a view on prison labour tells us nothing of ones views on wage labour. scoffing at the idea of wage slavery while imagining it is a idea held without anything to suggest it is does not tell us why prison labour should not be considered slavery. we have just your insistence and your imagination for that one. good job AMassiveGay (talk) 13:39, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘The bill is a ridiculous proposal and really should fail, it's not Congress' place to dictate curriculum material. This is just the latest installation of Why Tom Cotton Is A Blowhard. That said, the 1619 Project has a rather well-documented tenuous relationship with the truth. A lot of their source material about slavery causing the Revolutionary War says just about exactly the opposite of what they claim it does, the idea that black people were totally alone in their fight for equality is a rip-snorter on its face (though they sure try to smear Abraham Lincoln, someone must have forgotten to tell William Lloyd Garrison he wasn't supposed to be an abolitionist) and the connection between slavery and modern big business in America is ludicrous on its face (actual historians explicitly refute that connection). The project's leader has also shown a belligerent refusal to consider that she might just have some fundamental flaws in her arguments, even though, unlike her critics, she has no background in history; instead she resorts to aggressively playing the race card (Henry Louis Gates would doubtless be surprised to discover he's been producing "white history" all this time). And if you think non-historians belong writing history curricula, may I remind everyone of the death recorded fiasco. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 14:18, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

in the uk it is the job of government to dictate the curriculum, since the education reform act of 1988 brought in a national curriculum.

considering the variance of such things at state level, i would have thought that it would be imperative that your federal government take the lead. your federal government currently being dogshit probably complicates things somewhat though.

if the current curriculum is fundamentally lacking something, if the proposed solutions over correct (a look at the state of the us tells me its probably not that much of an over correction), it doesnt invalidate the need fix the existing problems. you iron out teething problems not see them as an excuse to do nothing. AMassiveGay (talk) 14:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Schools are a gigantic mess in the US, it's (for better or otherwise, I think the latter) normally left up to the states barring a few things like forbidding teaching creationism. But no one in Congress ever tried to ban a specific item from use in a curriculum. As to the 1619 Project, more diverse history is needed but that's not the best source for it. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 15:04, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

So... why don't we have a 1619 Project page already? If it's bullshit being peddled as historical fact, then it's definitely missional. CoryUsar (talk) 15:44, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

It'd definitely be worth a page. It's not all bad by any stretch, there are some useful parts of it, but the central thesis is nuts. And since its publication Nikole Hannah-Jones doth protest criticism too much (yes, I know protest meant something very different at the time, but it fits the modern meaning quite well). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 16:22, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

To me, it's basically Howard Zinn with even less academic integrity. She started with a premise and then creatively interpreted, selectively chose, or outright ignored evidence in order to support her narrative. More importantly, the whole thing reeks of old-school Soviet propaganda. E.g., "Capitalism is modern day slavery, ergo, communism!"CoryUsar (talk) 17:10, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

It's fair to disagree with some of the editorializing from the 1619 Project (I don't but to each his own), however the project was among the most detailed exploratory examining the history of slavery in North America, a history largely avoided in traditional American history courses. Additionally Cotton can go fuck himself.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:47, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Still waiting on how the Revolutionary War was a defense of slavery... The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:24, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I found this analysis interesting:

. Ariel31459 (talk) 03:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Reflex by Duran Duran is the best song by Duran Duran

Do not @ me, Hastur! 2001:8003:59DB:4100:2C27:B1F4:7637:CDFB (talk) 02:37, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Though I don't generally listen to them, I'm personally partial towards A View To A Kill (same with A-Ha, never got how Take On Me was their big hit when The Living Daylights is a much more impressive song and cool music video in its own right). The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 03:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Out of my Mind is my personal favourite. The Warren Cuccurullo years were their best. Shame they decided for fuck knows what reason they reunited with the lesser talented Taylor fella. Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:13, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Come Undone. CoryUsar (talk) 17:12, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Oooohhh the Wedding Album single, yes. It's an ageless classic as is the other single Ordinary World. Cardinal Chang (talk) 17:40, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Ah... DD - so good 40 or so years ago..... so boring now :/ Aloysius the Gaul 00:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Seems like the attacks on Biden's mental health

Are the result of Russians trying to meddle in the 2020 election. Something which the DHS (Department of Homeland Security) knew in July, but apparently delayed due to Chad Wolf. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 14:25, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Cause and effect mixed up there. Russian propoganda targets a thing that exists. Blaming everything bad you see on a conspiracy(regardless of whether there exists a real conspiracy) is not healthy. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 14:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

The report was from July it would seem. I'm not trying to blame all of it on Russian propaganda, but it hardly suprises me that a lot of it is again, like in 2016, fueled by Russian propaganda (especially since these attacks were just as heavily circulated on rose twitter, which often could find sources being traced back to GOP members). Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 17:50, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

It should be observed that many mental health experts have opined on Trump being not right in the head. One need only listen to him speak to know that they are right. Biden? His critics, well they criticize most everything about Biden, and that includes the Russians.Ariel31459 (talk) 18:35, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Ironic considering there's evidence that Trump has been having mini-strokes. CoryUsar (talk) 19:28, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

While I've read all about it, and trump has never been what you'd call "cogent", actual evidence is not actually something I have seen a scrap of. What evidence are you talking about? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:09, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, here he is denying the whole thing CoryUsar (talk) 20:38, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I get it. I keep up with these things. But typically a denial of something shouldn't be considered evidence of the thing. He's a compulsive liar and shouldn't be trusted either, but come on. That word has meaning, and I was expecting like... at least circumstantial evidence like someone saw a presidential motorcade when it was alleged to have happened. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:43, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, there was a video of him dragging his right foot just before he went to the hospital. So... CoryUsar (talk) 20:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

That's something, I suppose. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 00:48, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

"transgender people are mentally ill"?

hello. i actually created an account at this wiki because i didn't know where else i can talk about this and get the opinions of skeptics

anyways, i'm trans, and transitioning has been very difficult for me. i haven't started hrt yet, and let me say that getting it legally has not been easy. lately, the idea that trans people are just mentally ill and need psychiatric treatment or whatever has been sitting in the back of my mind for a while, and it has been driving me crazy. it seems like a dumb idea, but if it were true, going that route would be a lot easier than transitioning...

i've tried to be open minded about non-"left-wing" viewpoints, but this idea does seem kind of problematic for me. after all, this assumes that the apa and the who and basically every other credible psychology resource are part of some kind of massive liberal conspiracy and that these people writing articles for the federalist or breitbart or whatever are part of an underground effort to fight against it. as stupid as this sounds to me, i'm not good at doing proper research or investigation or whatever, so i honestly can't tell who is correct here. i don't know how much more of daily life i can take before i fall into some kind of horrible crank ideology that will only make me feel worse

if i'm going to throw empiricism into this, i actually have been taking antipsychotics for a year or so (lurasidone, to be specific), and my gender dysphoria has not lessened. but, my anxiety side is always fucking hounding me with "you aren't taking it correctly", "you're taking the wrong drugs", "you're just pretending", "you're lying to yourself" and other shit like this, so it's safe to say that my own miniscule sense of skepticism is broken

basically i feel conflicted as to what to believe, and people like me being at the center of a giant ideological battleground is not helping my mental state. i'm just looking for some advice from people of sounder mind than me and possibly more skilled at skepticism than i am

Autumncheney (talk) 21:15, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

There have been a lot of studies that confirm that transgenderism is not a mental disorder and is in fact based on the wired structure of the brain. It's a bigoted phrase that's been used to try to smear LGBTQ+ people as mentally insane or pedophiliac. See Refuting anti-LGBT arguments. Rockford the Roe (talk) 21:22, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

thanks for that link. i suppose i should clarify that i kind of don't really know who or what to trust anymore. i know about the scientific studies, and i don't see any reason not to trust them, but, like, there's a voice in the back of my mind that keeps telling me, "it's all liberal propaganda" and other things. seeing these far-right talking points on the internet all the time probably isn't helping me either. i guess what i'm asking for here is some mental support. rationalwiki seems like a dumb place to ask for this, but what do i know anymore? Autumncheney (talk) 21:33, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

RationalWiki has a pretty significant set of trans users. It's not a dumb place to ask. I suppose that voice in your head is from all that internalization from you hearing bigots denigrate your self-worth. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 22:12, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Having the benefit of having spent a fair amount of time studying psychology and other sciences, I can tell you that the "trans people are crazy" position faces the same difficulties as the flat earth conspiracy. Physics must be wrong. Tellecommunications must be wrong. Aviation must be wrong. And so on, until the conspiracy must include millions of professionals, all keeping their lips shut. Science itself is not an opinionated person. It can only tell you the facts. And the facts about who is crazy and who is not, are quite sparing. After all, that's a subjective evaluation. I can tell you that mental illness has been trimmed down over the years precisely because there was a lot of opinion and very little fact in the industry. The current definition is now an illness, which is not physical, and also not brain damage, or due to taking drugs or something, and it causes either (1) significant distress or (2) significant impairment in one of the major aspects of daily life, like work life, or socialisation, or getting up in the morning. This allows us to exclude a lot of stuff that in the common imagination would be considered mental illness. I can tell you that transness is *definitely* not a mental illness. Jerks who treat a person badly for belonging to a minority don't count as part of you, though they might indeed cause significant distress. The dysphoria is still considered a mental illness in the books, as it can be distressing, but luckily, it can be treated, with things like wearing the right clothes, and hormones. Tulpa001 (talk) 00:19, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Autumncheney I commend you for pushing through the bigotry and the general stress of transitioning. I personally cannot imagine the stress you are feeling from both the general transition and bigotry. Do remember to keep up with psychology and science reports from credible sources. Hell I still struggle with coming to terms with my bisexuality and the fact if I if I publicly said anything I would face tons of hate. Either way, you have my support from a distance. --Possible Goat (talk) 01:25, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Autumncheney If you want to start editing, our transgeder articles might be a good starting poit.--Delibirda (talk) 06:27, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Someone on Metabunk was having a similar problem when reading a conspiracy article he/she couldn't find a counter to. If you feel scared of confused when you read something, feel free to use Occam's razor. Metazero 13:39, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

@Tulpa Uh... until 2013, the DSM referred to trans sexuality as "Gender Identity Disorder", only renaming it "Gender Dysphoria" because political correctness. It is an illness, but it's less "my mind doesn't match my body" and more "my body doesn't match my mind". There's a strong correlation with GD and actual mental illnesses, but if anything, that's due to society's treatment of trans people more than anything else.

As for the OP, Autumn, just remember; No one has the right to force you to be miserable, especially not yourself. CoryUsar (talk) 15:25, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

There is no need for you to worry about what others think of your situation. Do not rely upon the internet for medical advice. Talk to professionals. Talk to skeptics and advocates with real medical backgrounds about ways to proceed. Believe in yourself and be mindful and don't be in a hurry. You may be surprised at your capable judgment.Ariel31459 (talk) 15:13, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Seeing people say "i'm tIrEd oF aLl tHesE cOmmIeS saYinG yOuTbE caN ceNsOR Me bEcaUsE tHeY'rE a PriVaTE CompAnY" is like seeing people say "I'm tired of hearing you say that science proves climate change exists".

Something tells me this post is going to become a hellhole in the replies.

I saw an argument over YT censorship in the video from this post, and someone said he was tired of seeing the "private company argument". Metazero 13:52, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

There are a few science denying trolls here but most of us accept the fact that the climate is shifting. Sad that many ignore or hate science unless it is convenient for them. --Possible Goat (talk) 15:08, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I'm deeply sympathetic to the fact that youtube, as a business, kinda sucks to deal with. In fact, I'm also deeply sympathetic to concerns that the entire web(almost) is run by a few corporations that have the power to dictate what is and is not acceptable speech. Both of those things are huge concerns. I've got zero sympathy for shitheads who think the right is being unfairly targeted. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 15:42, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

I personally view "the right" as being correctly targeted and it's about time. Cardinal Chang (talk) 16:54, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

i mean, to use one of their own arguments against them, if they don't like it, they can just leave. these are private companies, so they're free to go to gab and bitchute or start their own mastodon/peertube instance or something. at least i won't have to see their hateful troll comments when i'm just trying to watch youtube videos. i do agree, centralization doesn't seem to be good for free speech Autumncheney (talk) 17:37, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

At the time when panic about COPPA was going around, I was looking for different platforms for my videos. I watched a YouTube video about a guy promoting BitChute. I did not know at that time what they had on their site. I went to the BitChute site (still unaware of what they actually had) and on their site I found nothing but far-right BS (mostly white nationalism and supremacy) and highly disturbing videos by people who should have been locked in prison. The fun part about this story was the fact that the dude who promoted BitChute on YouTube was African-American. That left me confused as to why an African American person would promote a far right white nationalist website? I am still confused and that was nine months ago. --Possible Goat (talk) 18:13, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

DLive is just as bad. Time had an article on it Metazero 22:46, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Corporations deciding who gets heard and what makes for 'hate speech'. What could possibly go wrong? Smerdis of Tlön, wekʷōm teḱsos. 02:12, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Like Ikanreed said, it is an issue to an extent, but I feel like there's a discussion on this another day. I'm really just here to point out the irony mentioned in the title. In a way, Googs can and does remove stuff, but they're a company and can do so for profit, even if they are doing it for profit, as long as they don't go dick-ho on removing anything with "fuck" in it, it can indirectly help avert extremist thought, as long as they don't go too far towards profit (I'm just trying to practice pragmatic thought here w/ this sentence). So it's not communist, as it's a company instead of the state. If anything, it's very capitalistic. In a way, an actual problem I feel IMO is the failure to remove conspiracy content. I believe that CT channels are more likely to lead people into extremism, directly or indirectly. Like, you can see an extremist video title and say, "Man, that's fucking bullshit", but when some gullible kid sees a CT vid, and then another, then another, he starts thinking, "Wow, I'm hella woke, it's DA JOOZ behind everything!" By the time a CT channel is yeeted, a following has already been established. Deplatforming's effectiveness is varied, as this can cause people to cluster extremist shit in one website and cause a megachain (like DLive/BitChute), and DLive has been keeping them for money's sake, so the business argument goes both ways. Google is doing something good considering they don't get corrupt (and making some money in the process) and considering the public burden on them, they sorta have to do well to avoid news stories yelling at them. DL's keeping the shit for money. There's probably some constitutional stuff involved in this too. I just wanted to make some funny jokes. Metazero 15:03, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Covid Vaccine and Pseudoskepticism

Looking at the general base reaction to a covid vaccine, I'm seeing a lot of concern and pseudoskepticism based on its 'rushing' worldwide. Your typical concerned individual says something like "I'm not an anti vaxxer, but I don't wanna be first in line to get rushed, poorly tested treatment" or something like that. This is often paired with the worst kind of pseudoskepticism, which is yelling about how much you hate 'the media' telling everyone it'll all be okay, presuming that they know how horrible the vaccine will really be.

When people go on about how scientists are rushing the vaccine and so on, it seems like they're playing a semantics game where they can dodge criticism and make you out as some sort of sheep for believing in the science. The vaccines are rushed, in the sense that humans were tested earlier than usual and funding was allocated more quickly, but it's not like we're just skipping over testing the side effects, which is what they're really implying.

Anyways, is there a way to combat this while still being critical of Stephen Hann, for his comments about approving one before phase 3 is complete? I feel like there are anti vaxxers sneaking anti-science rhetoric into the discussion, but it's worded in such a way that there's an easy out if they need it. KGlife (talk) 21:27, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Around these parts the ones people are "going on about" are EXACTLY the ones for which there is no evidence showing they have done the usual testing for side effects, whether hurried or not - eg the Russian one is reported as being "untested", and there are well documented concerns of inadequate testing or possible approval before trials are completed - not just hurried normal testing regimes.Aloysius the Gaul 02:45, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Well, we are rushing. He have to rush, it's an emergency. Everything is a balance of risk. The Russians and the Chinese (military) are using vaccines which are probably not properly tested. Whether Putin has put things in motion because he wants the political advantage of saying he was first or because he is concerned about the population is unclear. I suspect the former.

You missed my point - Rushing proper procedures is not the same as not doing the proper procedures at all. the ones people are "going on about" here are the ones for which the proper procedures are skipped - not rushed. Aloysius the Gaul 22:50, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

My concern is that Trump will take one of the American-developed vaccines and declare it "safe for use" shortly before the American elections - again for political expediency. In such as case those who understand the importance of vaccines would be put in a difficult position: accept the newly-renamed "Trump Election Vaccine" or wait for more formal tests.

Incidentally it would also put many Trump supporters in a cleft stick as I understand their ranks are not short of weirdo vaccine denialists.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 12:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Clinical trial ethics exist for a reason, and I would not be in such a rush to dismiss them. Nothing wrong with taking the gen2 version of the vaccine if you're concerned. It won't be mandatory. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 13:18, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not talking about Russia's vaccine, which is obviously grossly irresponsible. Maintaining that the head of the FDA suggested something pretty dumb, side effects are being tested for. Long-term effects are never gonna be possible to account for, because you still have to release the vaccine. This is how literally every vaccine has worked, ever. You can see for yourself if republicans role it out early for election points, which is a whole other discussion, and has nothing to do with how the vaccine trials are being conducted. But people thinking they understand vaccines better than the scientists is a real problem, and I don't think they're being rushed in the way that is being suggested KGlife (talk) 14:44, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Project proposal

I find many bronze articles who seem to be inapropriatly rated. I propose a clean-up project.--Delibirda (talk) 08:48, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Go for it. It is a project worth doing. --Possible Goat (talk) 17:05, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

I was thinking about starting a project page for it. Any help?--Hedvigsen^{Skreonk here} 08:42, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Update: I am drafting the project page. Here is the link. Feel free to edit. [[2]] --Hedvigsen^{Skreonk here} 08:10, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

How do I add a "citation not needed"-type thing?

Need it for a joke. Metazero 00:17, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The "Citation needed" template specifically? {{fact}}. If you want that style of text with a different content, ^{[<font color="#0645ad">Some text</font>]}. Here's an example^{[Of dubious utility to you.]} ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 01:22, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

{{fact|joke}} --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 01:28, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

You mean this one?^{[citation NOT needed]} Just write nofact in double brackets. Coigreach (talk) 04:58, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Help with analysing UFO report from people who are more familiar with chemistry

The lockdown has been doing wonders for my obsessions... I came across some alleged evidence that aliens really have landed and whilst I can see the flaws in logic, I’m still confused from the chemistry/physics standpoint. I’m going to leave a copy of post from Metabunk to hopefully explain this.

In 1971, Delphos Kansas, a 16 year old farm boy claimed to have saw a hovering aircraft. The only evidence left was an alleged glowing ring where the UFO had been.

46 years later, in 2017, the daily express reported the findings of Dr. Frauk (who has stated that he had a great interest in the UFO phenomena). He was able to get a sample whilst in Nottingham university.

According to his findings, placing water on the soil was like placing it on glassy. He was unable to fully identify the compound within it but said that it is "a highly water-soluble organic compound which is potentially chemiluminescent”.

He came up with 3 possible conclusion. Either it’s a hoax, the ring was a fairy ring or it was an alien craft.

He rejected the former two theories and concluded that the alien craft one makes the most sense.

This was his conclusion on the findings: "The hovering object of presently unknown origin appears to have contained within its periphery an aqueous solution of an unstable compound whose likely sole function would be light emission.

"Some of the solution was deposited into the ground while the object positioned itself under a tree (to possibly avoid observation from the air).

"Once enough of this solution was deposited, the object departed after which the Johnson family approached the ring area." Scientific journals rejected his findings because it was, apparently, and inappropriate subject matter despite the fact that he posses physical and chemical evidence.

I’ve looked into Dr Faruk however I couldn’t find much, I was only able to find the book he published in 2014. In addition to that, he’s a chemist who got his B.Sc and Ph.D at Queen Mary college (London based university).

I managed to find an article which details Faruk’s investigation as well has his attempt to get his findings published. In it, he even spoke to Seth Shostak from SETI to discuss his findings. He was rejected.

But yeah, aside from a published book, there really is not much to Dr. Faruk’s investigation of the incident. To me it seems like a leap in logic to assume because some compound like that was found, it must have been aliens. I’m not a chemist but one would think that there are more coherent explanations that don’t require such a an extraordinary claim.

Whilst I think that what he found may have been a compound, I think it’s unjustified to say that it must have been aliens. Faruk makes somewhat of a false trilema, saying that it must be one of the three options, and because the two don’t show much evidence, it must mean the third assumption is correct. Although, aside from eye witness reports, there isn’t evidence to conclude that alien spaceship is more favourable.

I have a feeling like confirmation bias may have clouded Dr. Faruk’s judgement.

That’s my analysis from a logical perspective, however, when it comes to science, physics and chemistry, I’m not sure how to analyse this.

After a bit more research I found this interesting note: On November 2, 1971, a Delphos Kansas kid reported a UFO landed and left a glowing ring on the ground. He called his family, who saw the UFO in the distance, and the glowing ring. They took photos of the ring.

When the authorities got there, the white ring was on the ground, but it was no longer glowing. The ring was still there many years later. Tests show the ring is strongly hydrophobic and is organic in nature, with a high level of zinc compounds. The UFO was reported to behave like a fire balloon.

A neighbor says that a galvanized iron chicken feeder used to stand where the ring is, and that the ring is where chicken droppings accumulated for years. The zinc would have come from the galvanizing coating. Other objects in the photos are brighter than the glow of the ring, indicating that the light came from a camera flash, not a glow. The family turned the case in to the National Enquirer UFO contest, and won the 1971 prize (a possible motive for faking the case?).

What do you guys think? The question for me still remains, if this explanation is more possible, why would a Doctor with a Ph.D risk his reputation to assume that aliens have landed?

That’s what I posted on Metabunk. Essentially I just want to know, from a scientific perspective, what people think of this. I see where the logic fails but I cannot say that about the science as I don’t have a good enough background in it to make any comments. I also don’t understand why the Doctor would risk it all for such a wild conclusion. It just doesn’t make sense to me, and I know it’s a fallacy, but I’d assume that a person with a Ph.D would know better than jump to such a conclusion. After looking about, to me, this is the one case of UFO sighting that has the most “evidence” but that’s due to the fact that the only appeal it got was from UFOlogists and not many sceptics looked into it. I’m hoping that with me posting this hopefully a more sceptical consensus can arise.

Also sources: Daily express article, De Void article, A more sceptical look.

I recommend reading the express article as it details the Doctors conclusions and findings. But yeah, if at all possible, if anyone an can, please help me with analysing this on a more scientific level. Thank you.—WMS (talk) 14:48, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

1. The "Daily Express" is a tabloid and is not a good source of scientific information. 2. Eyewitness evidence is close to useless. 3. He suggests what you point out is a false trilema. The obvious answer "We don't know" was excluded.

It is more than likely you are wasting your time.Bob^{"Life is short and (insert adjective)"} 16:38, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Oooooo UFOs oooooo wooooo oooooo. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 17:06, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

"Potentially" chemiluminescent??? Potentially???!?!?. Put the fucking thing in a dark room and take a damn photo. How do you find it ambiguous? How can you say that? What garbage ass technobabble is this? Chemiluminescence isn't some hard to identify or measure property that requires hyper-advanced equipment to discern. You can identify the constituent parts well enough to declare it "organic" but you can't tell if it fucking glows? What is this bullshit? ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 20:00, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Cheers all for replying, you guys always have the critical thinking integrity that I lack in times of panic. I feel stupid for taking this article so seriously now... Again thank you guys so much for the help with pointing out how bullshit that "researcher's" reasoning was :)--WMS (talk) 16:05, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Noam Chomsky says Trump is WORSE than Hitler

Would you classify Trump as a fascist? If so, worse than Hitler?

Yes and yes, worse than Hitler	4	Vote
Yes, but not worse than Hitler	51	Vote
No, and obviously not worse than Hitler	34	Vote
No, but he is worse than Hitler without necessarily being a fascist himself	1	Vote
I don't know	3	Vote

— Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 23:17, 2 September 2020 (UTC)

Considerably less bad than hitler. In some ways of measuring, less bad than some recent neoliberal imperialists like Bush. And honestly, if the US hadn't increasingly configured itself as a police state over the last say 50 years, he wouldn't be able to implement the kind of shallow, petty vision of fascism we've come to know him for. ICE being deployed as gespato depended on decades of granting them insane powers like unwarranted search and seizure powers over 60% of the populace and the denial of full due process to their targets and funding them more than many nations' entire militaries and police forces combined. ikanreed ^{🐐Bleat at me} 00:47, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

The number of intentional murders by Trump is minuscule. The number of negligent homicides on the other hand is extremely high (I speak of COVID-19). So far Trump is not at Hitler levels yet. --Possible Goat (talk) 01:20, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I didn't watch this, but if Noam did say that, than he has lost his marbles. Being in your 90s ain't easy. 2001:8003:59DB:4100:3DC5:3D42:A81B:9BE6 (talk) 03:18, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Do you want a timestamp? He did say it, emphatically. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 03:28, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

for those unwilling to sit through 30 mins of an old man whispering quietly to himself heres an overview

essentially, if you ignore the clickbaity 'HES WORSE THAN HITLER ZOIKS!!!!' he does make an actual argument which, depending on your stance on things justifies his the claim as being more than simple hyperbole. hes saying hitler was really awful but ony set out to murder jews, slavs, gypsies and other minorities and groups where as the detrimental effects of trumps policies on combating things like covid pandemic, on climate change, and nuclear proliferation, takes us closer to point where these things will end all life. some of humanity vs all of humanity.

he does give examples of treaties trump has abandoned, environmental protections scrapped, of everything he says and does over covid etc, and it is difficult to disagree the outlook on climate change, nukes, and on the ability to handle major health emergencies have gotten worse under trump. his view is that the existential threat these issues represent gets exponentially worse as time ticks on, and another four years of trump would thus be disastrous.

if you think these issues are this serious, as the extinction rebellion people in london obviously do for example, then you could very well say trump is worse than hitler. but as existential threats go, they are little too abstract for many to take seriously or have any sense of urgency about. too easy to ignore as more immediate problems take precedent. to seriously comprehend the gravity of existential threats that demand action from us and right now, is overwhelming. its unreal. its too hard so we ignore it. hence the 'worse than hitler' hyperbole. to put it in perspective for people. the death of all humanity makes one head spin. the hitler comparison grounds it with something real for reference. so we are able to think about it and act accrdingly on election day. that was intention i think, rather than hysterical hyperbole.

but the worse than hitler thing has always been the joke about hysterical hyperbole, everything is worse than the literal benchmark for evil. so whether you think chomsky view has merit or not, all we get 'is trump worse than hitler?LOL' because the internet cannot read more than the headline, and certainly not that headline AMassiveGay (talk) 14:05, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

The more time I spend on the internet, the more I hate headline writers. Techpriest ^{(I am Alpharius! / / / )} 15:36, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Except he said that. Literally. It's not hyperbole. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 15:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

There are many people that Trump is worse than, including most American President's and maybe a handful of real fascists. But he's barely on Mussolini's level, let alone Hitler. Besides the ideology, and mass executions, Trump is literally too stupid (or cognitively impaired as his Tweets suggest)-RipCityLiberal (talk) 15:49, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Chomsky's argument is that he is dedicated to the destruction of organized human life while Hitler "only" wanted to kill all jews, gays, romanis... — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 15:55, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Chomsky was a brilliant linguist (and comp-scientist) who decided to stick his nose into the history books, and while History could always do with a fresh perspective and the US has done terrible things (as have every single country on the planet), Chomsky loved the smell of his own farts so much he permanently lodged his head up his own ass. He always starts with the conclusion "the US is bad" and works his way out from there, outright ignoring evidence to the contrary or context or the possibility that other countries could be worse. He hasn't gotten senile, him claiming Trump Worse Than Hitler is par for the course. CoryUsar (talk) 16:07, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

We already debated this (if every country has done bad things). I think his argument is solid - Trump is willing to destroy all human life, while Hitler "only" wanted to exterminate some human life. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 16:10, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

To me at least, Trump has the highest number of negligent homicides under his belt. --Possible Goat (talk) 16:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

(ec)the comparison is irrelevant, only there to give perspective on what chomsky is not alone in being an existential threat to humanity. you are not meant to weigh the merits of one against the other, you are meant to be convinced of the gravity of the situation, and hopeful do something. he gives plenty of examples of how trump has worsened things, and he suggests a not of solutions. one of which, is to make sure trump is not reelected. he is not even saying trump is the sole cause or even the main cause, but he is the one up for reelection in november.

the real questions are how damaging has trump policy been, how far down a round of no return would trump second term take us, and what can be done? but as i said above we all stop reading/listening at 'worse than hitler'. it could be a 91 year old man who was in his teens when ww2 was raging, just cannot see how one would use the holocaust as joke about exaggeration and hyperbole, but what was meant underline the seriousness of the threat, just does the opposite as we dismiss it out of hand AMassiveGay (talk) 16:53, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I agree with @AMassiveGay, this isn't a useful lens of analysis.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 17:15, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ Perhaps not useful, but certainly truthful. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 17:39, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Bear in mind that even under that lens, Hitler was also attempting to build a nuclear weapon, but luckily for the world (mostly), all the best nuclear physicists had fled to other countries for some mysterious reason. Plus, the research wasn't being done by a single team, but spread to multiple independent teams that weren't allowed to collaborate, because paranoia, and that's how the post office ended up with their own nuclear weapons program. Had Hitler gotten the bomb, he certainly would've used it, so "Trump causes nuclear proliferation while Hitler didn't" isn't a good argument.

Also bear in mind that Hitler didn't want to exterminate "some" people, he wanted to exterminate nearly everyone. After Jews and Romani, the Polish were to be exterminated over the next 25 years. All Arabs and Sub-Saharan Africans would be exterminated as Germany expanded. Russians too. All Asians except Japanese would likewise be wiped out, though eventually Germany would betray them. Americans were too mixed, and would have to be sterilized as well. The French and British were ok, sort of, but would be little more than slaves. The Swedes and Norwegians would be alright, mostly. But even among Scandinavians and Germans, there would still be constant exterminations of homosexuals and the physically infirm, the mentally ill, and so forth. I've yet to see any plan from Trump that demand the extermination of the overwhelming majority of people. You could argue that he hates Hispanics and Africans, but he would never be nearly as thorough as Hitler would have been given unlimited power. CoryUsar (talk) 17:41, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@GR Uh... according to your own poll, at this time only one person (likely you) believes Trump is worse than Hitler, so... CoryUsar (talk) 17:52, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Yes, and? — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 18:21, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

And Chomsky's lenses is not truthful? I know it's an Argument from Popularity, but sometimes logical fallacies can still be good heuristics. CoryUsar (talk) 18:28, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

I hate to be the guy that brings up objective truth, but objectively I can't see how it is true.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 19:52, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ I thought Raven retired. — Oxyaena ^Harass 21:17, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Tu quoque-Hastur! (talk) 21:20, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@RipCityLiberal Ok, just to be clear, are we agreeing that Chomsky's world view is not true? Because wording online can be ambiguous. CoryUsar (talk) 21:37, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

Correct, as I have written above, Trump is Mussolini-lite, more Andrew Jackson on Steroids. The only thing Trump and Hitler have in common is an (alleged) amphetamine addiction.-RipCityLiberal (talk) 21:51, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

thats really not whats being argued. its more the fact that trump is actively working against efforts to halt or reverse climate change, which has potential to catastrophic when paired along with the destabilising effects of wrecking international treaties and agreements. this represents an existential threat - potentially all of humanity vs a part of it.

whether trump is better or worse than hitler is not even the point, it just rhetorical device to emphasise that trumps policies are bad and we should should all we can to stop him.

honestly, we've been running out of time on climate change for years now it seems and even when we are literally all on fire, we will still find reason to do nothing. AMassiveGay (talk) 23:14, 3 September 2020 (UTC)

@AMassiveGay If climate change is the only issue that matters, then by preventing immigration and also wrecking the world economy, Trump is the absolute best option for the environment. Bringing all manufacturing back to the US is actually good environmentally, as those Panamax and Suezmax ships are just the worst. At least, not unless another candidate wants to get serious about nuclear power and electric cars, but IIRC, only one Democrat was actually serious about nuclear but it was the boring old guy that didn't have a snowball's-oh wait it was Biden. Yay for that at least. CoryUsar (talk) 03:55, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

What? Preventing immigration isn't going to even address the problems of climate change. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 04:02, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

The uncomfortable truth is that more people means more pollution. More cars, more meat, more pets, more buildings, more clothes, more electricity, more everything. The most environmentally friendly act you can do is not have a kid. If you are serious about the US reducing its carbon footprint or w/e, then you do have to seriously consider what that means in terms of immigration. CoryUsar (talk) 12:43, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

┌────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘I disagree with this, considering the US currently isn't replacing people in the workforce fast enough. Immigration is critical for the type of capitalist system we have. Additionally, as we develop new efficient methods of transportation, paired with government incentives, we can reduce our carbon footprint in the US.RipCityLiberal (talk) 18:11, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I disagree as well. The per capita footprint of countries like Canada and Bangladesh are very different and, despite Bangladesh having a far larger population, they still have less of an environmental impact on the planet than Canada does. The harsh truth is that white people are by far more likely to be damaging to the environment than other peoples. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 18:49, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

I reckon that has more to do with development levels than anything else. More people with cars and air conditioning are definitely going to contribute to a greater carbon footprint-Hastur! (talk) 19:02, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

No offense but this sounds eco-fashy. Also I've never seen any science advocate restricted immigration. Reducing birth rates might be a solution, but people tend to say this targeting poorer nations that have a much smaller footprint. No, the biggest contributor to emissions isn't immigration, it's people already living there, especially the well-off and relatively affluent, living in houses that emit gases, driving and buying stuff produced with fossil fuels only to throw away/eat the stuff. The agricultural industry also plays its part. The richest and corporations are probably contributing by far the most. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 19:07, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Not sure what part of what I said sounds eco-fashy. It's not like me and the NZ shooter share dinner. — Godless Raven ^talk_stalk^walk_balk 🌹 19:26, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

It's CoryUsar saying we need to stop immigration to combat climate change. --It's-a me, LeftyGreenMario! 02:23, 5 September 2020 (UTC)

To be honest, Trump reminds me less of Hitler or Mussolini and more Antonio Salazar and his Estado Novo (at least Trump hasn't created an analogue of Aginter Press, but history doesn't really repeat itself. Thank fuck.) Cardinal Chang (talk) 21:16, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

A Bangladeshi immigrant to the US isn't going to have the carbon footprint of a typical Bangladeshi, but rather the footprint of a typical American. As for reducing birth rates in the third world, do you know what the fastest way to do so is? Develop the third world, educate women, sex education, and so forth. Oh wait, that already happened in Bangladesh and the birth rate there is actually below the replacement rate. CoryUsar (talk) 21:47, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Man, if only there was a guy with a magic glove who could, I dunno, make half of the human population disappear or something. Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano^{Make a Reservation} 22:08, 4 September 2020 (UTC)

Or better yet...