# RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive5

This is an archive page, last updated 16 October 2018. Please do not make edits to this page.
Archives for this talk page: , (back)

## Help!

Why can't I use the intercom? I have tried sending it to all the groups and it still gives me a permission error. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:16, 30 January 2009 (EST)

It works for me on general site news. Could it be your image sig? ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 15:25, 30 January 2009 (EST)
No, it worked with the HTML sig, and the intercom doesn't use your sig anyway. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:30, 30 January 2009 (EST)
Your first point doesn't make any sense (it worked with the HTML sig?) but I do realise that the actual sig is not used in the intercom. Have you tried it with another account? ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 15:49, 30 January 2009 (EST)
When my sig was some HTML, the intercom still didn't work. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:06, 30 January 2009 (EST)
What browser are you using? tmtoulouse 16:08, 30 January 2009 (EST)
Safari 3.2.1. I'll try it in Firefox 3. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:12, 30 January 2009 (EST)
Yes, it works. Explain. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:14, 30 January 2009 (EST)
BTW your sig expands the line spacing considerably. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 16:19, 30 January 2009 (EST)
I am aware of that; I should ask Nx to sort that out at some point. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:21, 30 January 2009 (EST)
The issue is that the Safari toolbox passes variables in a weird format, the same problem occurs in the new google Chrome as well. I will need to figure out what it is doing and do some preprocessing before the authentication setup to get it to work. tmtoulouse 16:32, 30 January 2009 (EST)
I cannot use the intercom either, what's going on?-- Redcoat  06:35, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Try sending to general site news, then try with Firefox. Educated cubic Hoover! 06:37, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Nope, I just get a permission error.-- Redcoat  06:40, 31 January 2009 (EST)
In that case, try using Firefox. Educated cubic Hoover! 06:44, 31 January 2009 (EST)
That doesn't work either-- Redcoat  07:50, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Make sure you are actually using Firefox, and try sending to general sit news. 92.235.204.231 08:16, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Beaten by a BoN. Educated cubic Hoover! 08:18, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Or am I!!! (BTW it still isn't working!)-- Redcoat  13:25, 31 January 2009 (EST)
It doesn't work on anything other than Firefox. Educated cubic Hoover! 13:41, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Are you a member of the group you are attempting to send a message out on Red? tmtoulouse 13:48, 31 January 2009 (EST)

I'm afraid I haven't a foggiest as to which group I'm in.-- Redcoat  13:40, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Check here -- Nx talk 13:43, 1 February 2009 (EST)
IT WORKS!!!! Hooray, Thanks Nx!-- Redcoat  14:28, 1 February 2009 (EST)

## Calling all Japanese, or part-Japanese Users on RW　（日本人の皆様へ））

このウエブサイトで日本国憲法に詳しい人いませんか?　もしいるならば是非憲法に関してお書き下さいよろしくお願い致します!-- Redcoat  20:05, 30 January 2009 (EST)

My hovercraft is full of eels?
My nipples explode with delight?
Ok, babelfish tells me it's something to do with the Japanese constitution. care to expand on that? --PsyGremlinWhut? 07:42, 31 January 2009 (EST)
It's probably a tirade against Article 9; see his userpage. Educated cubic Hoover! 08:18, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Why on earth do you think I went to the bother of writing that message in Japanese? (the oh so obvious answer is: So that only Japanee people understand it, thats why!)-- Redcoat  13:15, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Addendum: The contents of this message shall remain secret until someone finds a decent translation program (not a cheap chinese imitation)-- Redcoat  13:15, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Google translate (not cheap chinese imitation). Others are welcome to suggest a better translation. Hiding or obscuring information or the process of how to get it seems to run counter to some ideals here. --Shagie 01:04, 6 February 2009 (EST)

## Bush Video

Just found this via a WIGO:World item. Thought it was quite well done. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 20:06, 30 January 2009 (EST)

I certainly got a few lulz from it, you're quite right in saying it was well done. I chuckled rather heartily when he came out with "they need to be eatin' US beef". -RedbackG'day 09:21, 31 January 2009 (EST)

## Spoof names

I demand that the person who created those spoof names last night confess. Educated cubic Hoover! 08:47, 31 January 2009 (EST)

I assumed it was you playing around with things. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 21:23, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Since it wasn't you, I'm inclined to think it's CUR. He recently made a spoof of my name, so it would fit a pattern. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 21:23, 31 January 2009 (EST)
It wasn't me who made Evitcaoidar Nemokifa. Really. But give me a second. . . Watch the user creation log. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 10:29, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Look at nemokifa evitcaoidaR's rights log. Educated cubic Hoover! 12:20, 1 February 2009 (EST)

## Reverting multiple changes at once

I noticed during the recent silliness over at the Poe's Law article that there were several changes made rather quickly. I did a bit of fiddling and discovered how to revert more than one edit at a time (I think), but by the time I'd figured it out, the article was already being cleaned up. Perhaps we should add a quick note somewhere explaining how to revert back more than just the latest change without having to do it one-by-one, maybe in the How to handle vandalism article or the sysop guide, just to make it a bit easier to those (like myself) who are a bit slow figuring it out for themselves.
Just for clarification, because I never had the opportunity to test it, here's how I think it works. Open the Fossil Record, compare the latest edit to the latest proper (pre-wandalism) version, then click undo on the diff page... right? -RedbackG'day 09:04, 31 January 2009 (EST)

No; if you look, I tried undo; the best way is to click the "edit" tab on the last good version and click "save". Educated cubic Hoover! 09:08, 31 January 2009 (EST)
I didn't realize you could do that, This person's knowledge is growing rapidly!, thanks. -RedbackG'day 09:09, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Still, should we put that method somewhere, other than here of course, just so newbies (and people who come up with over-elaborate and incorrect methods) know how it's done? -RedbackG'day 09:15, 31 January 2009 (EST)
I think so too - we shouldn't assume new editors here are familiar with wikis. Yours trulyDear Sir 09:19, 31 January 2009 (EST)

## RWW problem

Why am I getting this when I google rationalwikiwiki? Yours trulyDear Sir 10:04, 31 January 2009 (EST)

I think Google may have a slight problem, I get that on all searches right now. Even "fluffy kittens". --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 10:07, 31 January 2009 (EST)
They're even calling google.com a harmful site. Besides, AKjeldsen, were you not aware that fluffy kittens are the most dangerous kittens of all? They look cuddly, but have such sharp little claws. -RedbackG'day 10:09, 31 January 2009 (EST)
And what about tiger kittens? Yours trulyDear Sir 10:15, 31 January 2009 (EST)

I see what's causing it now - bad karma. Yours trulyDear Sir 10:21, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Seems to be fixed now. Too bad - I thought of getting a screenshot of "Conservapedia: This site may harm your computer" but only too late. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 10:26, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Well, WOT (Web of Trust), a Firefox extension designed to warn users about dangerous sites, still pops up a big "Warning!" when CP loads, so that'll have to do until Google's next brainfart.
As for the tiger kittens, INH, I dunno about you, but I'd be sorta disinclined to hug them hence reducing the threat of getting kitty-swiped... or eaten. -RedbackG'day 10:58, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Insert name here: +30,000 points for the edit comment:) Z3rotalk 10:27, 31 January 2009 (EST)

## Toby Keith

So I noticed that one of the saloon bar quotes, about "beer for my horses" is from a Toby Keith song about how great capital punishment is. May I direct attention to this verse:

Grand pappy told my pappy back in my day, son
Take all the rope in Texas,
Find a tall oak tree, round up all of them bad boys,
Hang them high in the street
For all the people to see.
(From here. Some punctuation added by me.)

So, right. I'd advocate finding better quotations or lyrics. Also, from a style standpoint, I have a hard time liking a song that uses the word "pappy." It just grates on me. CorryIt's an illusion, Michael! 14:32, 31 January 2009 (EST)

I'd never heard of it before, but having just listened to about half of the song on YouTube, I agree it's awful. It's also kindof put me off Willie Nelson. I thought he was a bit more left-leaning than to involve himself with a song like that. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 14:38, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I've removed it from the template. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 13:48, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Phew

I've moved all the Help files to Category "Help". If I've missed any or cocked up any linkage then I apologise.  (Toast) and marmalade 21:01, 31 January 2009 (EST)

## RW technical support

So here is my problem. Issues with extensions, the server, and what not crop up from time to time. They get talked about on anywhere from a close to a dozen different pages. I need a single place to find all the problems. I would like to set up something like RationalWiki:Technical support and have issues listed there in one place for me to find. Also it could be a place for anyone who adds stuff to the site such as various java scripts to offer support and maybe a few problems can simply be addressed by general users. Any intrepid users care to get this going? tmtoulouse 21:19, 31 January 2009 (EST)

How's that? (I'll put a note on the chalkboard)  (Toast) and marmalade 21:56, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Ironically (considering the above section), shouldn't that be a "kelp" page? PS, I think we should move all the "help" namespace to "kelp". But, of course, I'm wrong. Giant algae rule! ħuman 22:33, 31 January 2009 (EST)
By the way IF YOU LOGGED ON RATHER THAN IP'ING then your user talk page would work pretty well. No?  (Toast) and marmalade 12:28, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Well, God forbid Tmtoulouse logs on to his same account every day. What would he do without his multiple IPs and socks? Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:13, 1 February 2009 (EST)

## Halp!

I recently stumbled across an external link on a talk page somewhere here which led to a reasonable article, but when I went to the home page it turned out to be a bastion of complete batshit craziness (complete with the overuse of awful graphics). And now I can't find it anymore! I ask because I came across a great candidate for Article of the Weak there, and I would really appreciate it if someone helped me find it again. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 22:24, 31 January 2009 (EST)

Can you look at your browser's history and find it that way? ħuman 22:42, 31 January 2009 (EST)
I tried that. I couldn't find it. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 22:47, 31 January 2009 (EST)
OK, I'll check mine, then. ħuman 22:49, 31 January 2009 (EST)
If his History's anything like mine, it'd be easier to find a piece of hay in a needlestack. Toast 22:51, 31 January 2009 (EST)
Which unfortunately that's exactly what it's like. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:12, 31 January 2009 (EST)
700 edits to RW, aw, there's got to be something in here! ħuman 23:29, 31 January 2009 (EST)
I made something like 300 edits yesterday alone—would you be able to fish through that? Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:01, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Copy, paste, delete, look at what is left? And sorry about exaggerating your edit count ;) ħuman 00:07, 1 February 2009 (EST)
It's not that TimeCube thing is it? ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 11:19, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Ah, I found it—here it is! Thank you to everyone who thought it worth commenting on this thread. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:05, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Interesting - don't lose it now! ħuman 00:41, 2 February 2009 (EST)

## This video.... wow.

I just finished watching this video on youtube, and I must admit that it is a very insightful and well-made one, and I sincerly think that we, in the Wiki of Rationality might enjoy seeing it. Cheers. ĴαʊΆʃÇä₰ I saw a nuke by here...

It's not as good as his other videos though. My favourite is Evolution is a blind watchmaker -- Nx talk 12:00, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Have you guys heard about google breaking earlier today or something?-- Redcoat  14:31, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Have you read the above posts? Educated cubic Hoover! 14:32, 1 February 2009 (EST)
maybe he just skimmed the titles - it's under "RWW problem". Yours trulyDear Sir 14:35, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I admit , I skimmed the titles :c -- Redcoat  14:40, 1 February 2009 (EST)
A bracket is more standard. Educated cubic Hoover! 14:43, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Oh go stuff yourself-- Redcoat  14:45, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I am getting really close to desysopping you. Educated cubic Hoover! 14:47, 1 February 2009 (EST)
No fair--I didn't get to de-sysop CUR!!! TheoryOfPractice 15:05, 1 February 2009 (EST)
CUR didn't use this many ad homs. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:14, 1 February 2009 (EST)
CUR was (I stress was) being an effing pain to everyone, though.  (Toast) and marmalade 15:25, 1 February 2009 (EST)
He didn't redirect "Idiot" to someone else. He was an effing pain, but he was civil. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:48, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Being civil is not a requirement to be a sysop. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 15:50, 1 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)I would like to point out that on any website where people are not allowed to poke good-natured fun at the leaders of the site, something is wrong there. Very wrong. Phantom Hoover, it was Redcoat's idea of a joke. Live with it. I deal with worse every single day here, or at least I used to. I suggest that, if it annoys you, you edit war on it, redirecting it to ASchlafly, Redcoat himself, or EdPoor. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:52, 1 February 2009 (EST)
But it wasn't good-natured fun. It was an insult, and not an insult made in frustration or a funny insult, it was just calling me an idiot. It was an empty threat anyway, but I am getting fed up with him. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:55, 1 February 2009 (EST)
According to Redcoat, it was. Just because you are sour about it doesn't mean that he should be desysopped, especially since much bigger things have been done by sysops in the past. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:01, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I know, I was getting annoyed with him. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:03, 1 February 2009 (EST)

(unindent)(EC)Edit warring annoys me, though. I suggest that if it annoys you, CUR, then go and do something that doesn't annoy you. Yours trulyDear Sir 15:58, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Hey, Phantom! Remember this? Pot, I name thee charcoal coloured; signed kettle.  (Toast) and marmalade 07:44, 2 February 2009 (EST)

## Real name

When does the "real name" field in your preferences come up? Educated cubic Hoover! 15:47, 1 February 2009 (EST)

The "user profile" tag, box 1. Yours trulyDear Sir 15:51, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I meant when did it show up elsewhere. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:52, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Sorry. Yours trulyDear Sir 15:59, 1 February 2009 (EST)

When does the "real name" field in your preferences come up? Educated cubic Hoover! 15:47, 1 February 2009 (EST)

It allows Trent to track you down and steal your organs when he needs money for beer server maintenance. Otherwise, I don't think it does anything. Oh, and I think there's something hypothetical about attribution if the wiki ever gets published, but that's not particularly relevant here. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 15:53, 1 February 2009 (EST)
You mean I typed "enaruM .A bocaJ" into my preferences for nothing? 9K ruoy ot eornoC eht AR 11:32, 2 February 2009 (EST)

## King David

I do hope that it's been quiet here because UK RationalWikians have been watching David Attenborough's Charles Darwin and the Tree of Life. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 16:58, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Oh BUGGER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Yours trulyDear Sir 17:03, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Go and watch it on iplayer then; it's there until a week from now. alt 19:06, 1 February 2009 (EST)

## Introspective

We seem to be doing mostly navel gazing lately. What with new guidelines and article moves. Is ther nothing happening out there?  (Toast) and marmalade

I think we are trying to figure out what we always needed to figure out - What are we, if all we are is anti-Conservapedia? We share this with Republicans for what is it to be Republican today, if all it means is to be anti_Democrat? I have to admit I'm getting bored of developing RW, but I still enjoy the people here and it still makes me smile. I still think Andy shouldn't be teaching kids. And I still think that Conservapedia calling itself "The Trustworthy Encyclopedia" should be a contravention of the Trades Description Act. That is all. DogP 18:57, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I've got kindof bored of CP lately, & have enjoyed the other stuff going on at RW, albeit the community standards revamp is dragging on a bit & it will be nice to get it out of the way. It's good to broaden the site's horizons & not just be an anti-CP site. The Saloon bar was a definitely a good move, as RW socialising doesn't have to revolve agound wigo talk anymore. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 20:13, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I follow WIGO and WIGO talk, it's fun. But it's not why I come here daily - to channel teh assfly, I actually enjoy building the articles - learning from what people add, and doing dumb little style things to keep the articles consistent. If CP died tomorrow, I'd still love this site. ħuman

## A quick update

For those who don't care about American Football, I'm sticking you with some updates anyway. At halftime of the Superbowl, Steelers lead the Cardinals 17-7 at halftime, and proving that the PTC and crazy censorship groups still instill fear in the media, Bruce Springsteen is the halftime performer..... As such, since the Janet Jackson incident, the halftime shows have been Paul McCartney, The Rolling Stones, Prince, Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers and now The Boss.... So much for that whole "destroying culture and not caring about what anybody thinks" line of argument huh? SirChuckBOne of those deceitful Liberals Schlafly warned you about 20:05, 1 February 2009 (EST)

What's a "Superbowl"?  (Toast) and marmalade 20:23, 1 February 2009 (EST)
It's like a regular bowl, but more super. SirChuckBOne of those deceitful Liberals Schlafly warned you about 20:34, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Aah ... with porridge?  (Toast) and marmalade 20:44, 1 February 2009 (EST)
No, Ice Cream. ĴαʊΆʃÇä₰ I saw a nuke by here...
Yummy, I see why there's all the excitement.  (Toast) and marmalade 21:21, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Yup, it looks like steel flavoured ice cream tonight. Just for the record. ĴαʊΆʃÇä₰ I saw a nuke by here...
Yes, the Cards almost took it, but they got pwned. And the Boss ruled, if nothing else by obviously not lip-synching. ħuman 23:04, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Stupid Cardinals. Can't even hold onto a lead. Last time I bet on you. Z3rotalk 23:07, 1 February 2009 (EST)
How much did you lose, and how much more exciting did it make the game? ħuman 00:08, 2 February 2009 (EST)
I only lost \$20, and it did make the game more exciting, as the person I bet with was at my party:) Z3rotalk 09:15, 2 February 2009 (EST)

FYI: a "superbowl" is like regular owl, only it is much better. Superb, in fact. DickTurpis 00:10, 2 February 2009 (EST)

If someone takes a photo on my camera, who owns the copyright?  (Toast) and marmalade 21:40, 1 February 2009 (EST)

I guess it's in public domain, unless that person specifically copyrights it. You're probably good. The EmperorKneel before Zod! 21:44, 1 February 2009 (EST)

Also, you could just keep quiet about it, there's a 99% chance nobody'll know. The EmperorKneel before Zod! 21:46, 1 February 2009 (EST)

It was hypith ... hiperth .. hypathetik ... imaginary acshually.  (Toast) and marmalade 21:48, 1 February 2009 (EST)
By default, the person taking the picture owns the copyright. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 21:50, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Aah, but what happens if I won't let her have it? can I wipe it with impunity? (Also hypowhatsit)  (Toast) and marmalade 21:54, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Good question. I'd assume not, provided you allowed her to use the camera in the first place. However, if she deviously used the camera without permission, you might have a better case. --AKjeldsenCum dissensie 22:01, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Accomplished, or recognized, amateur photogs and their friends are an ugly "ownership" issue. Been there and done that. They think if they buy the film and pay for the processing (20th century crap), they own the pix. Of course, the photog thinks of them as "their" creation. Best to discuss first - very clearly. I'd say, give your friend their piccy, unless it is compromising ;) in which case, your disk crashed and you're very sorry. ħuman 23:15, 1 February 2009 (EST)
It is only a thought experiment - a dispute hasn't occurred - just struck me while I was uploading someone else's photo on my camera.  (Toast) and marmalade 23:22, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Crude version: whoever pressed the button owns the copyright. Soft version: Most casual pix should probably just be PD, for simplicity. Complicated version: If someone uses your camera to create "art", they own it. If you don't have a pre-existing contract to share the royalties (hahahahahahaah), they belong to the snapper. PS, IANAL. ħuman 00:12, 2 February 2009 (EST)
The person who took the picture owns the copyright. However, that right is worthless if someone else owns the medium on which it was created, they then have the right to destroy it. If you asked them to take the picture then the work was commissioned and copyright does not transfer to you until payment is finalised. If there was no expectation of payment then you de facto own the copyright. That's my non-legally binding opinion. Owning the copyright does not give you the right to do what you want with the image. The status of the image can be affected by where the picture was taken, public or private property and you my need model-release approval. If someone takes an image with your camera they may have some difficulty in actually proving that they own the copyright. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 01:40, 2 February 2009 (EST)
It's exactly that simple, yes. In other words, when playing these games, download awful boilerplate contracts and make your personal relationships suck in order to make them conform to the Law. ħuman 02:01, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Generally, copyright issues only matter when there's money involved. Mixing money and friendship can be a recipe for disaster. It's like offering to pay your sister-in-law for cooking a nice lunch. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 03:52, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Welll there's also the (20th century) issue of "who owns the negatives. Usually the friend who pays for the film and developing thinks they do. IE, their buddy, the photog, simply did a favor for no pay and, usually, no recognition. I have run through this a few times, one with someone for whom I taking "album cover" type pix - ie, someday money might be involved. Oh, but, no, you're just my friend, you "did me a favor"... WTF? No, I worked for you for no pay and no credit. Yup, when the potential of money is involved, it changes everything. (PS, if those images ever turn up, I will sue her ;)) ħuman 00:01, 3 February 2009 (EST)

## Where is Your God, Now, Kurt Warner?!?!?!

Huh, Kurt? Guess God isn't a Cardinals fan after all, Warner. TheoryOfPractice 23:29, 1 February 2009 (EST)

God was backing Ben Roethlisberger. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 23:34, 1 February 2009 (EST)
I guess god helps those who help themselves (lazy god). Z3rotalk 23:36, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Everyone knows that God is a big Steelers fan. SirChuckBOne of those deceitful Liberals Schlafly warned you about 23:58, 1 February 2009 (EST)
Hey! Jesus kept the Cardinals within the spread, so I made my 10 bucks, and that's all that matters. Way to go Jesus! DickTurpis 00:07, 2 February 2009 (EST)
@DT, glad it worked out for someone. Myself, I thought it was a well-contested game, and so, entertaining. Despite the fist-fights. And Bruce rocked. ħuman 00:20, 2 February 2009 (EST)
One guy I was watching it with had five buck on the first TD being a rushing touchdown by Roethlisberger at 13-1. He was pissed. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 00:23, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Human, obviously you haven't been keeping up. Bruce is an overweight liberal has-been. TheoryOfPractice 00:26, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Oh, yeah, I missed that. ħuman 00:39, 2 February 2009 (EST)
It took me five lines to realize that this wasn't about the Vatican, but some arcane American sport... l'arronsicut fur in nocte 08:07, 2 February 2009 (EST)
What sort of sport is it? Anything like cribbage?  (Toast) and marmalade 08:20, 2 February 2009 (EST)
It might be their version of rugby. Educated cubic Hoover! 14:47, 2 February 2009 (EST)
It's a lot like cribbage, except with violence. ħuman 16:29, 2 February 2009 (EST)

## Bambi's Mom

Evidently Google has been excoriated for having a picture of van hitting a deer on their Google maps street-view for somehwere near Rush, New York. It's now been removed, anyone here seen it? ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 07:40, 2 February 2009 (EST)

## Is it possible to hide IPs?

Given the latest activity by TK taking action against IPs of users here (in disregard of their own 'standards') is it possible to make the mediawiki coftware stop reporting IPs of users not logged in? Is it something we should even consider? StarFish 07:52, 2 February 2009 (EST)

I doubt it's possible. As long as we allow editing by unregistered users (which I think we probably want to continue to do) the IP address will show up. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 08:41, 2 February 2009 (EST)
It's the reason why we request that people sign in. How would we know if Jinx was back if we hid IPs. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 09:18, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Hide revisions can hide the username but not the revision or comment. Educated cubic Hoover! 11:17, 2 February 2009 (EST)
The question really is "what do unlogged in users show up as"? One approach would be to have the md5 sum (or other one way function - crypt of the ip addresses in hex form?) be used as the account name. The question then becomes "how do we know if anyone is impersonating tmt when he isn't signed on?) I do believe it is possible to do with a one way hash function and that should foil TK. For example, I could be 0xb18a6bc87ab61eb215f14cf668e6e60c or rwqCj5RXXgL2s (the 'rw' is the salt for crypt of the hex representation of my ipaddress (8 characters - perfect for crypt())). If tmt wanted though, he could even remove the salt afterwards making it that much harder for someone with moderate coding skill to figure out. Using a hidden salt known only to me (as the programmer doing the hash), my IP could be named kFCxB0TEif2. Not knowing the salt (but using it) drastically increases the search space. The advantage of using crypt is the short name - md5sum is even better (and you could stick a huge salt in there making it impossible (sans a phd in math and computing power measured in acres) for anyone to reverse. Though, one could convert the md5sum back to bytes and pack it with uuencode to make a short name again. Hmm...
```print pack("u",join('', map { chr(hex(\$_)) } split(/(..)/,'b18a6bc87ab61eb215f14cf668e6e60c')));
@`+\$`B@!K`,@`>@"V`!X`L@`5`/\$`3`#V`&@`Y@#F``P`
```
Ok, scratch uuencoding it. Thats not even vaguely pronounceable line noise. Still, the idea remains of one way hashes to obscure the ip address.--Shagie 22:59, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Hey, Shagie: we're generally English speaking on this wiki. Any chance of a translation?  (Toast) and marmalade 08:56, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Hey, I know a one way hash that obscures the ip and that's already implemented in mediawiki. It's called creating an account. -- Nx talk 09:07, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Yes, but it's easy to forget to activate it. Educated cubic Hoover! 12:09, 3 February 2009 (EST)

A translation and algorithms. Lets say you are connecting from the IP address 10.42.69.1. Lets convert these four bytes (the number can only be in the range of 0-255) to hex which is conveniently two hex characters. 10 becomes 0A, 42 becomes 2A, 69 becomes 45 and 1 is 01. The IP address is now 0A2A4501. The unix function crypt() is used for changing 8 character passwords into something that you can't work backwards from. It takes two parameters - the string and some 'salt' that is used to alter the data slightly. crypt('0A2A4501','rw') returns rw/kcy8uTbpIAM. The salt was put at the start as a reminder of what the salt is. If the salt remains constant and hidden, you don't need to put it there. This gives us 'name' of '/kcy8uTbpIA' which is very likely unique to one ipaddress. For someone to reverse engineer this to an ip address without knowing the salt they would need to encrypt every IP address with both upper and lower case form ('0A' vs '0a') and possibly mixed if the coder was a bit more inventive ('0A2a4501' - alternating case) with every possible salt (256 salts). There are 4.3 billion ipv4 addresses - double that for 'A' vs 'a' and another 256 times more for the salts. This is 2.2 trillion (2.2 * 1012 in case anyone gets confused about American numbering beyond a million) possible strings that need to be encrypted. On this old sun I work on (that is still more powerful than the average desktop today and isn't encumbered by microsoft operating systems) I can do about 3600 crypts per second. It would take on the order of 20 years running nonstop at 100% cpu to get the entire set of ip addresses encrypted to match one encrypted one here. The average time would be half if you were just looking for one - still, 10 years.

Doing this form of a one way hash to obscure ip addresses would make it impractical for anyone to reverse the hashed ip address back to the numeric one. Other one way hash functions can be used such as md5 which would make it even more secure and difficult to reverse (the time becomes billions of years with current technology). For effect, my sig this time is what it would look like for me as a desalted hashed ip. This IP is currently not blocked at CP (feel free to try to reverse it). --Empkec5ljHk 16:37, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Here is an issue with practicality. I can not encrypt the IP that is actually stored in the database, that would for sure break things such as blocking, and probably half the wiki as well since any lookups to that field would violate expectancy. The issue is then that I have to encrypt the display variable whenever it would appear, and there are many places that it could display. I would have to manually alter it in the recentchanges code, the diff code, the history code, the signature code, etc. All in all I think the scope of such a project exceeds its usefulness. tmtoulouse 16:48, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Instead of making them invisible by hiding them, Couldn't one of our JavaScriptCodeXperts play with (Math.floor(Math.random()*256)(4 times) so that everyone could have a random IP sig to make them invisible like: "HnAeYeSdTlAeCK"? (who's bored?)  (Toast) and marmalade 13:20, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Edit (Tools under Windows) -> Preferences (Options under Windows) -> Content -> Enable javascript -- Nx talk 13:36, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Sidebar

Somewhere (?) there was a conversation about adding stuff to the side bar. I mentioned "All logs" & it was, if not acclaimed, at least not damned. I've done it & put it in "navigation", as you'll see. I would have put it in "toolbox" but couldn't find it. Meeteth it with approval?  (Toast) and marmalade 09:24, 2 February 2009 (EST)

It's not possible to put it in the toolbox without javascript hacking (or php hacking), but it's possible to put it below the support link. The conversation was at Mediawiki talk:Sidebar#Adding btw. -- Nx talk 09:29, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Thanks for the location, Nx; I've dropped a note there. I think it's OK where I've put it, actually.  (Toast) and marmalade 09:39, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah, that's great where it is. ħuman 16:28, 2 February 2009 (EST)
Embarassingly, CP has had that feature for a long time. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 08:03, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Where d'you think I got the idea?  (Toast) and marmalade 08:54, 3 February 2009 (EST)

## Can we have lurkers come out day?

Did someone say lurcher?
 Did someone say burqas? Did someone say Gurkhas?

Please. It'd be fun... Sterilerationalize 21:44, 2 February 2009 (EST)

That would be today! ħuman 21:55, 2 February 2009 (EST)

Consider it done! Sightblinder 02:48, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Peek-a-boo! Aboriginal Noise What the ... 07:16, 3 February 2009 (EST)
As in coming out? Bondurant 07:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Whatever happened to our Lurker? ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 08:04, 3 February 2009 (EST)

## Troubling...

Want to know who gave how much to the Prop. 8 campaign in your neighbourhood? Click here. Even though i'm totally anti- Prop 8, I'm really not sure about the sentiment behind this--I foresee many, many borken windows and other hassles...TheoryOfPractice 09:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)

What gets me is the average amount seems to be about \$5000 and from retired people.  (Toast) and marmalade 09:42, 3 February 2009 (EST)
How does a "truck driver" afford \$2200 to fund a gay marriage proposal? Is it even accurate, though, as surely that info would be confidential. Or more specifically, why would anyone want to give \$2200 to a political campaign? I mean, at best, that's a lot of vodka and weed, at worst Oxfam, Christian Aid, The Red Cross, Cancer Research or whatever could do a lot with that kind of cash. ArmondikoVtheist 10:41, 3 February 2009 (EST)
450 grand from the Templeton foundation, f**k... ArmondikoVtheist 10:42, 3 February 2009 (EST)
We should expand our Templeton Foundation article. I'd never heard of it before, but having looked it up on WP, it looks like the foundation has links with a lot of dubious right-ring causes (Discovery Institute, Proposition 8, various think tanks). ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 12:39, 3 February 2009 (EST)
To answer your question, Armond, I have one simply thing to say... The only thing that all religions have in common is that they're great as raising money. I'm still yet to hear any argument against gay marriage that doesn't fall back on some Religious principle. As such, when the medicine man calls for money, the sheep give till it hurts. Religion is probably the second best factor (after good advertising) to get people to work against their own self interest. SirChuckBOne of those deceitful Liberals Schlafly warned you about 14:10, 3 February 2009 (EST)
So when you give money for "the new church roof" (why is it always a new roof they need?!?) the money is actually going to homophobic causes. Pretty sad really. It's like all the people giving to Mother Teressa thinking they were helping people when at least 50% of it went on setting up Catholic missions across the world and the rest was spent on f**k knows what, but it wasn't medicine. ArmondikoVtheist 10:16, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Metapedia

Anyone want to improve the Wikiindex article about Metapedia? Proxima Centauri 14:17, 3 February 2009 (EST)

It's puzzling how big Hungarian Metapedia is, if those article stats are accurate. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 21:42, 3 February 2009 (EST)
How can I join anonymous? That way I can take down Metapedia. And Conservapedia. And maybe RationalWikiWiki, for about 3.14 milliseconds. If it's at night, no one's there, etc. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:43, 3 February 2009 (EST)
First get an email adress that can't be traced to you if you haven't already got one. You need email confirmation to edit. Then choose a unsename. A very "Aryian" name like, 'Horst' or 'Siegfried' might or might not be suspected. I don't know the site. — Unsigned, by: 87.114.19.29 / talk / contribs
Hey, Prox, you need to learn how to spell "Aryan". ħuman 17:22, 4 February 2009 (EST)

CUR--don't go there. Metapedia is the worst place on the internet and not something to be trifled with. These people are very, very, very bad and are best left undisturbed. They are way more experienced with online nastiness than you are, and there is NOTHING you can do to upset them, shut them down, or hurt them....taking out an account to call them the scum that they are won't make a bloody bit of difference and if you somehow mess up and leave some sort of clue as to who/where you are, you will have done so with people who are demonstrably unhinged and into violence. Leave it alone, really....TheoryOfPractice 16:12, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Oh, I have no intention of registering. But overloading their server? Completely different. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:15, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Denial of Service is aparently legal in a few countries. We have no idea where UndergroundResistor is. If it's illegal where you are take great care. The police can trace your computer even if you use prosies proxies. Proxima Centauri 08:06, 5 February 2009 (EST) Finding out if Denial of Service is illegal where you live is easy. I just typed "Denial of Service+UK+law" into Google and found out it's illegal here. There could be RationalWikians living in places where Computer law isn't up to date. Proxima Centauri 09:26, 5 February 2009 (EST)

And, I suspect, illegal. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:17, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Nope. Just submit a lot of page views. All you're doing is having their server be so busy, it crashes. Completely legal. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:19, 4 February 2009 (EST)
If you're obviously doing it with the intent to crash the server, then it may well be illegal, depending on the laws of your country or state. It's also a silly way to get your kicks. My advice is to leave it alone. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 16:35, 4 February 2009 (EST)

(unident) Anonymous does it all the time. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:36, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Doesn't make it legal. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:39, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Then why isn't the FBI tracking Anonymous activities? Anonymous would have been caught by now if they actually were engaging in cyber-terrorism. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:41, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Look, CUR--I'm trying to help you here--we all are....You've just admitted to intending to do something of dodgy legality against a website owned and operated by neo-Nazis. YOU NEED TO RECONSIDER. Dude, don't be an idiot--between the law, the crackers at Metapedia and your parents, somebody is going to find you out and kick your ass. TheoryOfPractice 16:46, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Do you really think that I have the resources to do such a thing? I can't even do any damage to CP, for Darwin's sake. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:49, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Good. Now get to work on the Darwin paper. TheoryOfPractice 16:50, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Anything new 'round here?

-- 侍  16:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)

## Hitler and religion

I don't know if you're aware of this, but it appears that you have two different sections on the relationship between Hitler/Nazism and religion which seem say two rather different things: Positive_Christianity and Nazi#Religion_in_National_Socialism. It's not at all a subject I know very much about, but I just noticed. LadyLuck 21:04, 3 February 2009 (EST)

I don't see how. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:07, 3 February 2009 (EST)
It's been pointed out before, & the articles do need to be straightened out. I'm no expert either, but I did start trying to research it a while back. Basically, as I see it, Hitler promoted Positive Christianity as a propaganda tool, but seems to have privately been very negative about Christianity. Hence some atheists associate Hitler with Christianity, some Christians associate Hitler with atheism, hence the confusion. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 21:28, 3 February 2009 (EST)

## Darwin Paper

I am writing a paper on Darwin for a school project. Anyone have any ideas? --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:11, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Review the new book that argues that Darwin was inspired by the Abolition movement. Read Bury the Chains for background. TheoryOfPractice 21:15, 3 February 2009 (EST)

(EC, AAAAAAAARRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHH)

I already have the review. Here is what I have so far:
Ideas of evolution go back to very early times in human history. Classical Greek thoughts could be divided into two categories: those who acknowledged some form of evolution and those that denied any form of evolution, and are akin to today’s creationists. Anaximander and his contemporaries believed fell under the first category, believing that that nature was literally alive and that it could change itself, that somehow it created itself, but that it had no order or purpose. Anaximander believed that all living things were created when the sun warmed some primordial element of the earth. Before Socrates, this applied to everything. Anything could come from this matter- and everything did. Plato thought that the real world was a world of unchanging forms, and that everything that exists never changes. He believed that the things perceived were imperfect interpretations of idealized forms that never changed. Any imperfections or differences were caused by the senses distorting things. This meant that if tigers started having glow in the dark stripes, it is not because of radiation, it is because our perceptions have changed. I would attempt to tell that to Godzilla, but he ate me. Aristotle believed that animals and plants represented a line from the least complex to the most complex. However, he saw that the categories were blurred. Basically, he saw a hierarchy, but acknowledged that the lines were blurred.
Approximately 1500 years after Anaximander first had an inkling of evolution, Christianity had become the dominant ruler of science. Scientific thought did not fall far outside of traditional Christian thinking. Some thinkers thought that species could change, but they tried to find evidence in scripture. Most of the arguments for why species had to be designed had to do with scientists feeling that nature was so well designed that a designer had to be involved. For example, one book by leading scientist John Ray was known as The Wisdom of God Manifested in the Works of Creation. In it, Ray argued for the idea of final causes, using the eye as an example- an example which is still used today by creationists. Ray also attempted to back up his argument using woodpeckers, claiming that their stiff tail feathers, short but strong legs, and long tongue were evidence of a designer.

--"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:18, 3 February 2009 (EST)

I thought the paper was on DARWIN. not Anaximander. What grade is this for? TheoryOfPractice 21:26, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Very funny. The paper is longer than one paragraph. Darwin contributed to evolution. Does it make any sense not to report on the people before him? --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:28, 3 February 2009 (EST)
That depends--how long is the paper? if it's a 500 word thing, then no. if it's 1500 words, you might have room for a brief paragraph--it also depends on what you're arguing in the paper--that will determine what sort of background is relevant. TheoryOfPractice 21:33, 3 February 2009 (EST)

(unident) I didn't want to do it this way. I was coerced into doing it this way. Don't blame me. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:36, 3 February 2009 (EST)

Look, kid--this is what I DO. Answer my questions, I'll see if I can help--hell, e-mail me a draft if you want...TheoryOfPractice 21:38, 3 February 2009 (EST)
I do not know how long the paper is. The class I am writing it for is as disorganized as RationalWiki is during HCM -2000. The computers don't even have a decent word proccesing program, only textedit. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 21:41, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Jesus Christ, it's like pulling teeth with you. Is it a history class? What grade are you in? What does the teacher/professor want? Was there an assignment handed out? Did he/she just say "write a paper," or did you get any guidelines? TheoryOfPractice 21:45, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Here are some helpful tips for writing a good paper. CorryIt's an illusion, Michael! 22:12, 3 February 2009 (EST)
Here's a trustworthy sauce you could use. Are you allowed to add pictures?? Jimbo 07:03, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Cug, Theory is trying to determine the paper's guidelines and target audience. You must have some notion of how long the paper is expected to be. Were you thinking thirty pages or one page? Depending on the answer, one would approach it in an incredibly different manner. I will say that your example paragraphs would seem appropriate for a two or three page paper - is that for what you were aiming?

If you'd like me to read a draft, you can email me a copy or paste it here. From what you've already posted, two things; first, your paragraph is a little disorganized. A paragraph, even an intro, should have one topic and stick to it. Second, assuming this is an academic paper, leave out the snark about Godzilla (or any snark for that matter). Z3rotalk 09:54, 4 February 2009 (EST)
The comments made above about structure all seem very sensible. I would also suggest that you might wish to mention Darwin - the subject of the work - in the introduction. Then tell people why you feel it is necessary to launch into the history of the theory of evolution. As has been pointed out by others, the amount of space you devote to he history of evolution will depend on the size of the paper and where you are going with it, but at the moment it looks like you're writing a "history of evolution" paper.--Bobbing up 10:50, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Breaking news...

From WIGO, real world (that I don't think anyone reads): Ben Stein withdraws from a commencement speech after widespread protest. The Discovery Institute bitches and moans.

Nice add it to WIGO world. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 22:51, 3 February 2009 (EST)
How the hell did he even get picked for UVM? We're talking Vermont here, they elect socialists and stuff. ħuman 00:02, 4 February 2009 (EST)
This has been blogged by PZ Myers on Pharyngula. He encouraged people to email UVM to stop Stein giving an address. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 06:21, 4 February 2009 (EST)
I read WIGO:World. And I liked this one. Stein is having a cry about it inside, you can tell. But I definitely agree with the idea that he's done this deliberately just to appear victimised. ArmondikoVtheist 10:12, 4 February 2009 (EST)
It's a shame that Ben Stein became a shill for the Discovery Institute. His game show was so brilliant. CorryIt's an illusion, Michael! 12:18, 4 February 2009 (EST)

The policy link on Special:BlockIP currently links to a joke page. I think we should change this to something more serious, for example RationalWiki:Community_Standards#Blocking or RationalWiki:Blocking policy (if/when that gets updated)? -- Nx talk 06:51, 4 February 2009 (EST) So, any comments? -- Nx talk 15:25, 4 February 2009 (EST)

Agreed. The latter page is more specific and would probably be a better choice of link. KlapauciusEsteemed Constructor 15:28, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Ok, noone objected, so I redirected the policy page to the community standards and changed the mediawiki variable too. -- Nx talk 16:14, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Where we are now

I registered at the UK Foreign & Commonwealth Office website and thought that their form reflects a sort of cultural snapshot of Britain today. There is some diversity in the religion (although no Sunni/Shi'ite distinction, despite the 4 Xian options) but the title box still reflects the class structure. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 08:39, 4 February 2009 (EST)

No Professors? No military ranks? No Pagans, Confucians or Vodouns? Perhaps the FCO lost them on a train. Totnesmartin 08:43, 4 February 2009 (EST)
I'm applying for jobs at present, so having to fill in a lot of equal opportunities monitoring forms. On the religion section, some of them have separate boxes for "atheist" and "no religion", which is kindof puzzling. As an atheist, do I tick the atheist box, or is that implicitly defining my atheism as a religion? ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 08:57, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Interesting, but those are all official titles you can use because they're essentially awards. I've never quite figured out the Master one, isn't that just any boy under 12 or something!? ArmondikoVtheist 10:08, 4 February 2009 (EST)
British Airways have an even longer list. I always amuse myself by picking a random title each time I fly. Last time I was Rear Admiral. You never know, it might even defeat the terrorist watch list. --JeevesMkII 10:19, 4 February 2009 (EST)
But of course, it's much more fun when you can type in your own. Although most people will just go "Jedi" and that's it. I try for a little more imagination Lectitio Divinitatus or perhaps 3rd Day Advent Sheep Shagger... but I can imagine they'd look at you and think you were crazy with that last one. ArmondikoVtheist 10:24, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Ghengis - what were you doing at the FCO and why did they need your religion? I can't tell from the form whether this is the start of a job application or whether you're planning to travel. Silver Sloth 10:33, 4 February 2009 (EST)
It's for their LOCATE service, essentially you register with them when you visit a foreign country so that they can coordinate help in the event of an emergency. So if I'm drowned by a tsunami in Thailand or buried in an earthquake in Greece then they know which shaman to send to mutter over my corpse. Or something like that. ГенгисYou have the right to be offended; and I have the right to offend you. 11:41, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Well it's important that, if you get killed in a disaster, you feel OK about it. Totnesmartin 12:25, 4 February 2009 (EST)
This discriminates against pastafarians, IPUists, teapotists and Moonies. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:19, 4 February 2009 (EST)

## Goat arrested in Nigeria

I am shocked to learn that a goat has been arrested in Nigeria. I have updated our goat article but I feel that, as a group, we should formally protest this outrage to our mascot.--Bobbing up 08:49, 5 February 2009 (EST)

We already had that dicussion. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 09:06, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Yes? Sorry, I'm not around so much these days.--Bobbing up 09:14, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I've written it up. Proxima Centauri 11:46, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Bob already did, Proxima. ħuman 17:28, 5 February 2009 (EST)

## Modified Quote Generator

I'm making a modified qoute generator here: User:ConservapediaUndergroundResistor/modifiedquotegenerator. Anyone got some ideas? --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 09:30, 5 February 2009 (EST)

What's wrong with the old one? Bondurant 09:40, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Not enough lulz. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 09:43, 5 February 2009 (EST)
If your quote generator adds as many lulz to this site as all those lulzy Fall Down socks you keep creating, then Rationalwiki had better come with a "danger, this site may split your sides with laughter" health warning. Bondurant 09:47, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Sorry, did someone ask for a lulsy Fall Down sock? Fall Back 09:51, 5 February 2009 (EST)
So you like the Fall Down socks? --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 09:53, 5 February 2009 (EST)
For the record, "Fall in a positive direction along the imaginary axis" was me. Educated cubic Hoover! 12:11, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Hello. -Fall On a Non-Isometric Angle
Hi there. - Simply Obeying Gravity's Well 17:25, 5 February 2009 (EST)

## New Meta-category(gories?)

This discussion was moved here from talk: Main Page.

We have Pseudoscience, Science etcetera can we have fun and maybe recipe as categories? Mostly I want a category to put Category:Smileys in. We probably should one day go through all the images and catalogue them, but that is a big project so we may need a few weeks organisation to do that, but we could start with a meta-category images. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 22:45, 4 February 2009 (EST)

I agree with the idea of more giant categories. I'm currently focusing on cleaning up the categories we already have, but when I'm done I would be happy to help with any such project. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:04, 4 February 2009 (EST)
That reminds me... I tried to mass-cat all the templates once, but it didn't go over very well (although I think that had more to do with my attitude back then than the idea). Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 23:04, 4 February 2009 (EST)
Damn templates, most of them are in a category called category:templates. We are going to need some big work. Once we get the feel from the mob about the meta categories, I think we could make a start about checking that every page is at least one category that goes back through the category to the mainpage. Evilutionist may have abandoned the tree of life but we won't give up on the tree of articles. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 23:11, 4 February 2009 (EST)
A friendly word of warning: mass catting initiatives often rub Human the wrong way. Expect him to pop up and grumble at you at some point. Radioactive afikomen Please ignore all my awful pre-2014 comments. 00:48, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Perhaps we should get all bureaucratic and make a page to discuss this? Those that care can chime in, and perhaps when an idea is forthcoming we could even pretend to "vote"? HAhahahaahahaha ħuman 01:44, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I take it RA that Human is not your biggest supporter when it comes to your organising. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 06:38, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I've started categorising some images. I don't think all images need a category, just ones where we have a lot of pictures of a similar kind sprinkled across different pages, as it makes them easier to find when you need them, or pictures of a kind where a gallery might be appreciated. So far I've made an animal images category (inevitably includes subcats for cats, goats). Please add anything to these that I've missed. I think we should also have an image category for religious art, maybe one or two others. PS. What's category:categories for? PPS. I'm moving this discussion to the bar. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 14:33, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I have been using category:categories as a meta-category. The image definitely all need at least one cat if not more, I was once trying to find a picture of a blackhole and only came across one by luck. Ken's puffer fish has been uploaded a couple of time so if it was both in conservapedia related media and fish that would be less likely to happen. The names can be stupid why is banana.jpg or what ever a picture of Neptune? Because of an old in-joke which is no help if someone needs a picture of Neptune. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 23:31, 5 February 2009 (EST)
We need a mediawiki namespace catergory. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 14:40, 5 February 2009 (EST)
No we don't it is the only namespace small enough to navigate around and it will only draw your attention to certain pages. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 23:31, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Special:Allpages can display all pages in any namespace, and Special:Allmessages displays all system messages. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:26, 5 February 2009 (EST)

## Some stuff I found on MediaWiki

This might be useful. We could use it to prevent vandalism to specific sections of articles, but not have to lock the whole article.
This, if anything, is even better- we could use it for all sorts of things.
This one is pretty cool, though.
Same here.
I don't know what this one does.
But this one would almost certainly be popular.
Oh noes! Diplomacy!
And here's teh news.

Any other ones? What does teh mob think? --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 14:56, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Fail2ban blocks IPs that get the password wrong too many times, and is of little use to us. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:24, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Oh. Well, what about the others? --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:27, 5 February 2009 (EST)
I think we only add new extensions if we're sure they're going to be useful, & most of those I can't really see the point of (for us anyway). Do you have any specific plans for them? ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 15:29, 5 February 2009 (EST)
The poll would enable enhanced polling- people would be able to select one of several options. User snoop would enable us to track specific users. The news channel would be good for WIGO World. As for the diplomacy, we could form stronger ties with other wikis this way. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:32, 5 February 2009 (EST)
We don't even have checkuser; why the hell would we have user snoop? Educated cubic Hoover! 15:35, 5 February 2009 (EST)
EC) There are more extensions in heaven and earth ... Seriously, It's up to Trent: He's the one who'd have to install, maintain & troubleshoot any extensions. I'd imagine we've all been through the list and been like kiddies in Santa's grotto.  (Toast) and marmalade 15:37, 5 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)If we don't want it, fine. Just a suggestion. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:38, 5 February 2009 (EST)

The idea is to add extensions/functions/whatever that we need to do things. If you come to me and say "I think we should have x because we can use it to do y and y is important because of z" I am pretty good about eventually getting it installed. Otherwise it is just tech creep. tmtoulouse 15:53, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Protecting certain parts of articles might be interesting, but we have so many sysops who'd have to understand what was going on it might just be chaos. The poll function might be nice - in fact, we could reopen the voting debate. :-) Guestbook doesn't convince me. News Channel - Mmmm - would we use it? Actually I can't really see a need for any of them - though they might be fun to have.--Bobbing up 16:03, 5 February 2009 (EST)
We definitely should have the poll. As for the news channel, we could use it to promote dicussion of current events. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:26, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Have you guys actually looked at how the poll renders? It is really shoddy code, the first generation WIGO voting was cannibalized from this extension because I hadn't learned how to write extensions yet. As soon as I figured out how to do it I rewrote the voting from the ground up because there were so many problems with this code, not to mention it renders like crap. tmtoulouse 16:28, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Polls are easy enough to do with what we've got (adapting WIGO buttons, using sliders, or just voting by signature). I don't thing section protecting would be useful. We protect pages as little as possible anyway, & I can't think of many cases where just one section of an article gets vandalised - only the "see also" section of the Fred Phelps article, & I suspect if that was protected & the rest of the page wasn't, the vanda would still post the link elsewhere on the page. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 17:03, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Hmmm interesting let me look at each one

• We don't protect pages so we don't want to protect section, although if someone could convince me it would reduce page lockings then fine.
• We already use the parser extension tag <poll> so it would probably destroy the server, definite no.
• Snoop seems nearly as invasive as check user, so no.
• I can't even work out what guestbook does, any visitor can sign RationalWiki:How_I_found_RationalWiki if they want.
• We already have embedded video and flash mp3 player, so if we had the ogg extension we could do all this any way, my vote get the ogg extension.
• If people think their account are compromised then fail2login would be okay but most it is going to full of my IP address because of how badly thought out my name is.
• First ambassador wouldn't run on RationalWiki. Second who are we going to ambassador with, CP? Hell will freeze over before our relations with them will.
• News channel would be good although I don't know how much it would be used.
• Capturebot would the only "person" doing that much uploading and even then it has enough problems without making it compliant with that.

Basically we are still having minor server problems following the move so unless these provide something amazing we should avoid unnecessary upgrades until we are stable again. - User ${\displaystyle \scriptstyle h/2\hbar }$ 03:27, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Gadgets would be nice, but they're not really necessary. I've added the MediaWiki 1.13+ wikibits.js importScript and importStylesheet functions to Common.js, which are essentially the same. Try adding
```importScript('User:Nx/Scripts/Smileybox.js');
```

to your monobook.js (or monobook_adfree.js if you use the adfree skin) and try my new smileybar -- Nx talk 13:59, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Who would we be ambassadors with? Wikipedia, AthiesmWiki, RationalWikiWiki, Uncyclopedia, etc. etc. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:25, 6 February 2009 (EST)

## Work in progress

I have to run out right now, I'll be back to add moar later! ħuman 16:42, 5 February 2009 (EST)

Why not put it in funspace? Educated cubic Hoover! 16:50, 5 February 2009 (EST)
Because A) It's Human's Essay; B) It's WIP.  (Toast) and marmalade 17:13, 5 February 2009 (EST)

## Night Mode!?!?!

(Note: someone seems to be threatening to develop code for night mode--see here. This is barely even worth talking about, right?)

I've not been around these last couple of days, but--WHAT THE FUCK??!?!?!! We're having NIGHT MODE!?!?!? Is this/has this been discussed somewhere? TheoryOfPractice 10:01, 6 February 2009 (EST)

it was discussed as a way of blocking the Poe's law bot attacks, and was taken semi-seriously by a couple of people. I can't see night mode being implemented here ever - we have edits 247, and editors in all faces of the time cube. If it ever goes to a vote (or even a vote about having a vote, and a vote about that vote) I'm against as well. Totnesmartin 10:08, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Riiiight.... because that'll happen. Though hell has been feeling a little chilly recently. ArmondikoVtheist 10:22, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Also see Talk:Fred Phelps. Neveruse513 10:27, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I hadn't noticed that these attacks happen only at night. Didn't Ben Franklin say something about security and liberty, and what happens between them? I forget. Z3rotalk 10:32, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Who "Ben Franklin"? He editor?  (Toast) and marmalade 10:35, 6 February 2009 (EST)
"Those who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security deserve neither liberty nor security" - or something very like it. Worm (t | c) 10:37, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Regardless of when the attacks occur, they will not stop. Freedom is the enemy of security. Night mode is our saving grace and the development of which is progressing smoothly. Neveruse513 10:39, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Look, you're prolly just yankin' our chains, and that's fine, but if you're serious, this is a non-starter and will never happen. TheoryOfPractice 10:43, 6 February 2009 (EST)

To be honest, I thought it was much more obvious and didn't imagine it would have to go this far. Neveruse513 10:45, 6 February 2009 (EST)
What about "happy hour mode" when only people who ar drunk can edit? Would be a lot more fun.--Bobbing up 14:11, 6 February 2009 (EST)
YES! Totnesmartin 14:20, 6 February 2009 (EST)
After a review of my night mode code, the "happy hour mode" should only be a small tweak, perhaps only a matter of weeks. Neveruse513 14:24, 6 February 2009 (EST)
The problem is "when" is happy hour? I know that Neveruse513 seems to think that if it's "night" in the US then it's "night" all over the world, but things don't work like that. So when is "happy hour"?--Bobbing up 14:27, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I know the "night" part is throwing everyone off. It's a misnomer. If I could change the name, I would, but I can't, so I won't. Neveruse513 14:32, 6 February 2009 (EST)
EC) For Human, it's any time he's on the net. and marmite 14:33, 6 February 2009 (EST)
(ec) For most user, happy our is every hour. Z3rotalk 14:38, 6 February 2009 (EST)
We can just define night as "whatever time Count RA is online". Educated cubic Hoover! 14:44, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I think it's great we're all working together to make this happen, but unless someone knows of some magic program that can globally search my massive code with a regular expression of some sort and print the instances so I can change them, all this fuss over the name is moot. Neveruse513 14:50, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Awwww. You wrote all that code for it to never be used. Educated cubic Hoover! 14:51, 6 February 2009 (EST)
We'll see who's laughing at sundown. Neveruse513 14:53, 6 February 2009 (EST)
It's possible that Neveruse513 will find himself writing code to get himself out of the vandal bin.--Bobbing up 14:54, 6 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)In case you haven't noticed, I'm a bureaucrat. Unless your code totally locks the database, which would be stupid, I can circumvent it. Educated cubic Hoover! 14:57, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I have many tricks up my sleeve. Also, I am hoping to achieve bureaucrat status in the coming months it will take me to finish development. Neveruse513 14:59, 6 February 2009 (EST)
You really think that we'll make you a bureaucrat if you are trying to insert code into the wiki against the wishes of the mob? Educated cubic Hoover! 15:01, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Coming months? I thought nite mode was ready to go at sundown? Z3rotalk 15:03, 6 February 2009 (EST)
There may have been a few small setbacks. But don't push me - we wouldn't want to force my hand and implement some half-baked version of nite moad that could fuck a bunch of shit up. Neveruse513 15:09, 6 February 2009 (EST)
If you implement it at all, a "bunch of shit will be fucked up", then we will see to it that the same happens to you. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:15, 6 February 2009 (EST)
And we'll see if it happens during daytime hours. Neveruse513 15:17, 6 February 2009 (EST)
"We"? Educated cubic Hoover! 15:18, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Did you really not get the grep joke? Neveruse513 15:19, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Yeah, it's obviously a joke. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:05, 6 February 2009 (EST)
-- Nx talk 15:17, 6 February 2009 (EST)

EC * 3

Neveruse513 is making CUR look almost reasonable. and marmite 15:19, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I haven't seen CUR today... maybe Neveruse is a sock? -- Nx talk 15:20, 6 February 2009 (EST)
CUR was actually worse than PH and TOP about throwing a shit fit over blatantly obvious trolling. Unless these guys are sarcasm superstars... Neveruse513 15:24, 6 February 2009 (EST)
The simplest way to institute Night Mode would be by creating a bot which would be activated at certain hours of the night, & would automatically block any user (for a few hours, until the end of Night Mode) as soon as they make an edit during these times, as well as automatically reverting their edit. I'll get working on it right away. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 15:25, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Finally. Someone who understands the need. It's going to take a couple of weeks for me to port my code to .js, so if you have something ready to launch we should go with that. Neveruse513 15:28, 6 February 2009 (EST)
No, no, no and no. We will not instigate night mode unless we have community consensus. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:30, 6 February 2009 (EST)
The community is in shambles because of the vandal crisis and you want to take a vote? We're passed that. Stop standing in the way of progress. Neveruse513 15:33, 6 February 2009 (EST)

(unident)(EC)Looking for me? I was sick the last two days, but went to school today, so I was absent from the wiki for a few hours. Sorry. I have EC with Neveruse513. He isn't me. I am seriously not kidding. Weaseloid, don't you dare do such a thing. If such a thing would be implemented, then we should only apply to users such as Fall Down. And there's one fatal flaw in Neveruse513's logic- the vandalism was done during the day. I suspect that this guy is a sock. Any sysop here knows that we don't do such things. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:34, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Look at this. We are becoming more and more like CP. Weaseloid, you are being irresponsible. Sorry, but you are. You should NOT be helping Neveruse513. We have editors who edit from the other side of the planet. Vandalism is done almost exclusively during the daylight hours, when such a bot would not be implemented. There was no vandal crises. Tit has been doing this for quite a while, and it is fairly easy to deal with. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:38, 6 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)How are we in shambles? There has been some annoying vandalism to a couple of articles which was easy to revert, and you're already trying to impose major restrictions on all editors. (Help! I'm agreeing with CUR!) Educated cubic Hoover! 15:39, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Wheel War! Z3rotalk 15:40, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I think that only applies to sysops reverting each other's blocks, not bureaucrats warring over rights. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:41, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Well, now we have that too. Z3rotalk 15:43, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I have blocked both Neveruse and NightModBot. We won't be seeing from them in a while. Hated to do it, but necessary. Unblock them if you want. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:42, 6 February 2009 (EST)
God damn you guys are good. I'm almost convinced that you're serious (about not implementing nite moad). Neveruse513 15:43, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Lighten up, guys. I don't know how many times you need to be told this, but IT'S JUST A JOKE. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 15:45, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Weaseloid, Neveruse513 isn't taking this as a joke. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:46, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I think NU isn't serious either. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:47, 6 February 2009 (EST)
GOD DAMNIT I CAN'T TAKE IT ANY MOAR - Are you besting me? Neveruse513 15:48, 6 February 2009 (EST)

(unident) I'm almost sure he is. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:49, 6 February 2009 (EST)

I remain sceptical, but there is little I can do until I'm sure. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:50, 6 February 2009 (EST)
How come, no matter how silly something is, the addition of CUR turns it into a full-blown emergency? Z3rotalk 15:51, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Night mode could have prevented this whole thing. Neveruse513 15:52, 6 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)Stop picking on CUR; I was confused too. Educated cubic Hoover! 15:53, 6 February 2009 (EST)
(EC)I am not trying to make this an emergency. NU brought this up on several pages. Every possible indicator has been made that this is not funny. If this was a joke, he would have given it up. PH, you can't deal with NU- but you can deal with the bot. I already did, of course. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:54, 6 February 2009 (EST)
My apologies. Until the next crisis...Z3rotalk 15:55, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I thought I made it clear multiple times that this was a joke. You guys kept going. I mistook it for uber-sarcasm, which get's me all hot and ready. If you're not doing uber-sarcasm, just stop responding, because I'll never know. Otherwise, this will go on as long as it has to (i.e. night mode implementation). Neveruse513 15:56, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Did you? Where? Educated cubic Hoover! 15:57, 6 February 2009 (EST)
(EC x 2) CUR, read through Neveruse513's posts in this thread & on the Fred Phelps page. I think he/she has acknowledged it was a joke at least three times. You & Hoover took no notice so he/she's carried on with it. That is all. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 15:58, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I tend to get confused when people keep changing position from "joke" to "apparently serious". Educated cubic Hoover! 16:01, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Here's the first (and most obvious time):

It's a joke! Can't you take a joke? And if you do try hacking, we'll find a way. We always do. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 15:16, 5 February 2009 (EST)

The mention of "Computer Science III" also should have been a dead giveaway... Neveruse513 16:02, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Why? (I'm only familiar with British curriculums.) Educated cubic Hoover! 16:05, 6 February 2009 (EST)
It's a 4chan meme...I guess it's not obvious outside that context. Sorry.

Second attempt to make this clear:

Look, you're prolly just yankin' our chains, and that's fine, but if you're serious, this is a non-starter and will never happen. TheoryOfPractice 10:43, 6 February 2009 (EST)

To be honest, I thought it was much more obvious and didn't imagine it would have to go this far. Neveruse513 10:45, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Neveruse513 16:07, 6 February 2009 (EST)

(EC x3) I don't understand Computer Science III either, but I thought the whole thing was very obviously a joke from the outset. Considering how much we talk about Poe's Law, people at this site seem to be terrible at differentiating parody from serious suggestions. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 16:08, 6 February 2009 (EST)
It's not really a great meme. Neveruse513 16:12, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I have a tendency to trust people on their word too much. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:09, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Third attempt:

I haven't seen CUR today... maybe Neveruse is a sock? -- Nx talk 15:20, 6 February 2009 (EST)
CUR was actually worse than PH and TOP about throwing a shit fit over blatantly obvious trolling. Unless these guys are sarcasm superstars... Neveruse513 15:24, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I know that it was made clear in places, but this discussion is large, and I tend to only look at the active ends. Educated cubic Hoover! 16:12, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Fair enough. Sorry for trolling you, I honestly thought you were trolling back. Neveruse513 16:14, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Same here. I only saw the active bits- and my sarcasm meter broke yesterday. I was attempting to fix my wierdness meter (keeps breaking whenever I touch it) and it blew a gasket, shattering the meter on the sarcasm meter. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 16:16, 6 February 2009 (EST)
"" Educated cubic Hoover! 16:16, 6 February 2009 (EST)

So -I got lost in all the discussion. When are we introducing Night Mode? DogP 16:18, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Weaseloid's apparently got something in the works. Maybe we can go beta before sundown? Neveruse513 16:21, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Yaaaay! Educated cubic Hoover! 16:27, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Hurry the fuck up with nite moad already. It's already dark here. Bondurant 16:30, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Maybe it's already up and you simply have nite moad privileges. Neveruse513 16:31, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I can has nite moad privileges? Bondurant 17:10, 6 February 2009 (EST)
You already have them. All existing editors do. Neveruse513 17:12, 6 February 2009 (EST)

I have used my credibility built up for over a year of editing here coupled with my mastery of BASIC to unilaterally institute night mode restrictions across this site. Owing to the apparent roundness of the globe and the associated persistence of night at all times somewhere, night mode will be active at all times with the possible exception of leap days, hours and seconds (damn that Y2K bug). I apologize for doing this without discussion but, given the relentless onslaught of wizard ninja vandals, I felt compelled to save the world the only way I know how -- through "Hello World" programs in archaic coding languages. That is all. Exasperate me!Sheesh!Not the most impressive contributor here 16:44, 6 February 2009 (EST)

Using my 1337 h4xx0r skillz, I have locked you all out of editing. Mwuhahahaha -- Nx talk 17:19, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Have not. --"ConservapediaUndergroundResistoris a bored teenager 17:20, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Good one, Nx, but I can disable JavaScript. Educated cubic Hoover! 17:21, 6 February 2009 (EST)
Drat. Foiled again -- Nx talk 17:22, 6 February 2009 (EST)
You, sir, are a patriot and RW is in your debt for your efforts. The implementation of Night Mode is imperative. Neveruse513 17:23, 6 February 2009 (EST)
I'm a little surprised you don't somehow still think I'm serious. Neveruse513 17:28, 6 February 2009 (EST)
The best trick the devil ever played was to convince people that he didn't exist. Exasperate me!Sheesh!Not the most impressive contributor here 23:16, 6 February 2009 (EST)

### EZ Edit Button

SAGE GOES IN ALL FIELDS! Chris Fanshaw 20:50, 6 February 2009 (EST)
It's also a good flavouring for sausages, stuffings, potatoes and pork dishes. ЩєазєюіδMethinks it is a Weasel 09:48, 7 February 2009 (EST)