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Does history rhyme?[edit]

'Don't repeat our mistakes'; Biden to Bibi.

The 'original mistake' being the 2003 Iraq War, where the Americans obliterated the Iraqi military, which meant that a huge power vacuum and knocking out perhaps the only pillar to national integrity. Result; twenty years of civil disorders, rebellions, factionalism, weak governments and external meddling. Is Israel making this mistake again?

Israel attacks Syrian air bases.

Israel destroys Syrian Navy.

Israel attacks hundreds of military bases.

The intention is clear; to 'while we can' to use the disorders to smash out/pull out as many of Syria's teeth and claws as possible, so no future Syria could really threaten Israel... well, for the foreseeable, at least. And when you think of some of the rebel's political ideology, some of the gear Syria has and the experience of Afghanistan... you can see their reasoning.

But let me present another side; the reasoning why I think this will ultimately make Israel less secure, not more.

Firstly, it is destroying what might be the last existing 'anti-fundie' faction in the land - after all, those officers in command etc stuck to Assad basically 'to the end' and thus hated groups like the Muslim Brotherhood. It means that a fundie takeover is more likely now as they hold a much bigger % of the weapons in the country now.

Secondly, it threatens to make Syria a 'hyper Lebanon'; because the remaining military will be so weak it will be unable to stop factions a la Hezbollah from bedding in and then turning their sights on Israel itself.

Lastly, it is going to utterly outrage not only Syrian opinion but general opinion within the wider Mid-East - that of a colonialist, 'Zionist supremacist' Israel deciding to dictate shit at the point of a sword and only a sword. That even if some folks intellectually accept 'it had to be done', emotionally they will be hugely angry - like the French are still sore at us Brits for Mers el-Kibir in 1940. The logic was correct - had to make sure the Germans didn't get a blue-water fleet - but the French felt it to be a betrayal, an attack by your own ally, another entry in the volume titled 'Perfidious Albion'.

KarmaPolice (talk) 19:42, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

Trouble is, while it may be a mistake for Israel in a larger, longer, geopolitical context, it is quite convenient for Bibi to create a “forever war” that he can use to try to cling to power as the “strong man guaranteeing Israeli security, rally around the flag” and all that jazz.
What should be remembered in the “Syria as Afghanistan” comparison is that Syria actually has a somewhat clear (if turbulent) history as a unified state, including a multiethnic narrative of anti colonial struggle that is quite different from the more fractious Afghanistan. Syria also has the advantage over Afghanistan that there is currently no equivalent of Pakistan, i.e. a local power that both sponsors the Islamists and provide them with a safe haven in a cross border area.
That said, a “hyper Lebanon scenario” with its risk of a long civil war and/or “frozen”, dysfunctional, weak and ethnically divided state apparatus (come to think of it, Bosnia is fairly similar to this, too) is definitely not out of the picture. And while this is clearly not as dismal, it is not that much better a scenario than a “Talibanisation” of Syria, trading a unified state for the absence of a single, hardline Islamist regime. ScepticWombat (talk) 14:18, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
Which is why I said 'rhyme', not 'repeat' - the situation in 'state breakup' is more analogous to Iraq, not Afghanistan - because while Syria has a century of being a state, it's only been a unified state because the military has held it together - not only do you have the Kurds, but also the various geographically-concentrated religious minorities who are used to being 'a state within a state'. What's more, there's a very good chance that Israel continues to 'meddle' in Syria [say, covertly backing the Druze and Christians like they did during the Lebanese Civil War] as well as Iran backing factions while Turkey picks their favoured side and the Saudis decide to fund some friends... What's more, we do have the 'Pakistan' partial analogy in the Iraqi border provinces - as in, a region held by 'local factions' which are only loosely controlled by the Iraqi state and thus, quite possible for a future 'Bin Laden' to hide within it to a fair level of 'in plain sight' because Baghdad can't stop the locals from doing it.
I fully agree on Bibi - he only gives a fuck about his own hide and when you're 70 you don't need to plot that far in the future. It's why I truly fear about the long-term viability of the Israeli state - that they're going full-blown garrison state/apartheid model increasingly ruled by fascist-Zionist-fundies that when it finally burns out, few will give an actual fuck. KarmaPolice (talk) 17:36, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
I still think that Syria has a much stronger foundation on which to (re)build a united, national narrative than Iraq and one that might be used to sustain it as an imagined community in a way that I don’t think Iraq has ever had.
Hence, I disagree with the Iraq/Syria analogy because Syria very much fought to be a state and has a history of doing so across ethnocultural lines, unlike Iraq which was basically created from an Ottoman province and, as far as I know, have very little in the way of multiethnic national narratives to draw on. Similarly, Lebanon was created specifically to try to frustrate Syrian anti colonialist struggles by trying to fracture it through favouring the local Christian factions in that struggle.
Of course, just because Syria has this history and these narratives doesn’t automatically mean that it will survive as a unified state, but it does at least have something to draw on that I don’t see in either Afghanistan or Iraq. The history of Lebanon, to me, is probably the most apt (if imperfect) analogy and the reason I’m not very optimistic about Syria’s prospects of remaining a de facto, unified state with some meaningful level of central control. The reason why I see a Lebanon scenario as plausible is indeed the “many cooks”, in the guise of regional powers trying to meddle in the outcome in Syria that you’ve mentioned.
Iran will desperately try to salvage something from the situation, but will also do much to avoid some form of extensive Al Qaeda/IS style control (as it’s not “only” a security risk but a potential personal risk for most of the Iranian population). By contrast, the Saudis will probably see Syria as a wonderful opportunity to create a “reverse Yemen” to threaten Iran while not being particularly careful about not getting a vicious, Syrian (Sunni) Islamist regime in the bargain. Turkey wants to be sure that, whatever happens, no post Assad regime will allow the Kurds too much freedom and as we agree on, Bibi just wants to stir the pot and keep it boiling, while Iraq probably doesn’t have a unified policy as such and its various factions will probably try to support different Syrian factions.
The latter issue is also one reason I don’t see the Syria/Iraq border as quite as problematic as that of Afghanistan/Pakistan: While there may be some local backing from some ethnic/regional Iraqi factions to elements in Syria, it’s still a far cry from the quite powerful central government of Pakistan very deliberately and systematically funding and supporting the Taliban as arguably a keystone of its own foreign and security policy. In the case of Iraq, things might change and the level of support is somewhat limited to an extent that would never have been the case in Pakistan. ScepticWombat (talk) 17:36, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Mirror life[edit]

Have come across this - possible future RW relevance. (Possible influences from Real Life - thalidomide where one form was used in the test and the mixed forms in the tablets, with the mirror-form causing the problems [I know this is a simplification]). Anna Livia (talk) 23:31, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Would infection per se be an issue with mirror bacteria? Our immune systems can't attack them, but equally they can't attack us. I always thought the main issue with mirror life would be the lack of predators - the second any get into the environment, they reproduce without limit, consuming everything else. Christopher (talk) 00:11, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
I just spent like... an hour trying to get an understanding of the "mirror life" the article mentions.
So the chemicals that make up all biological molecules appear to have a specific arrangement... but they could be rearranged in a mirror position with the molecule still technically being the same? A visual image. Did I get that right?
The article initially linked seems more sensationalist than anything reading other sources. Still going to stay up late thinking of doomsday scenarios for a highly-complex and mostly theoretical thing that I only have a layman's understanding of. Impiricism (talk) 02:40, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Will the Deadly Mirror Molecules kill us before Uncontrolled Artificial Intelligence does us in? Or will they both be beaten by the equally likely Zombie Apocalypse?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:02, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
The 'other-handed' chemicals can actually be created - but the transition to 'actual living entities' would not be likely in the near future (for all the obvious reasons). A possible topic for monitoring.
What was the sf story involving a weird form of (water-) ice I have come across as a passing mention (as another possible apocalyptic event)? Anna Livia (talk) 12:16, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Cat's Cradle by Kurt Vonnegut? Carthage (talk) 12:23, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Possibly - I only read references to the story.
Any other examples of where one form of a chiral chemical has one effect and the other form different effects? (I know enough to ask the right sort of questions.) Anna Livia (talk) 21:32, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
My brother mentioned that there were chemicals that behave differently (in particular, become much more toxic) in different chiralities many years ago. He called them 'isomorphic isomers', but he might have been misquoting. A more correct term seems to be enantiomers. Polyproxyphene is the wiki example. It has different effects as a drug in each form.
Sheri S Tepper's "Grass" also involves this idea (...spoiler warning?) Namako (talk) 22:42, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
@Anna Livia There are numerous examples of enantiomer pairs with different biological activity. The classic example is thalidomide, formerly prescribed for morning sickness. One enantiomer has therapeutic effects, whereas the other is teratogenic. Administering only one enantiomer does not avoid teratogenic effects, though, as the enantiomers interconvert within the body. Carvone is another popular example; the enantiomers have very different smells. Since the body is a chiral environment, though, it’s very common for enantiomers to have different effects, and there is substantial pharmaceutical (and academic) interest in enantioselective (or “asymmetric”) synthesis and catalysis as a result. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 04:30, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I mention thalidomide in my first comment - it being the most well known such chemical (I have read variously that it is used therapeutically for certain diseases.) It is a long jump from the creation of 'mirror chemicals' to 'mirror life' (which is likely to face problems in consuming 'ordinary organic material'). Anna Livia (talk) 11:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

I did find a fairly elementary article on this. It goes through types of isomers and has a fun enantiomer at the end that doesn't stay in a single chirality at room temperature. Unfortunately the 'bible' on organic stereoisomers is nearly £200. Namako (talk) 14:21, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
@Anna Livia Ah, I missed that; sorry to tell you what you already know! There are some other examples of drugs with notable differences listed here, toward the bottom. It is a large jump to mirror life, and a mirror bacterium probably would have trouble digesting natural proteins and carbohydrates. An autotrophic mirror might be more concerning, especially if it could survive in the body. We’d know how to produce antibiotics for it, but a lot would still hinge on the immune system’s responsiveness. I find it difficult to believe the immune system would have no reaction at all, though a reduced response is credible. The problem would then be just bacterial overgrowth sucking up nutrients and producing toxic waste products, with the immune system failing to adequately keep them in check. I don’t know enough about autotrophic bacterial metabolism to say how credible it is that any bacteria could do this without digesting ordinary foodstuffs, though. 𝒮𝑒𝓇𝑒𝓃𝑒 talk 15:38, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
I want to say something that is weird but honest. I scalded my hand with just under boiling water I have suffered 2nd degree burns, in a way I wanted my family to notice but that's not how injury works. I'm 72 hours into a big bad scalding, probably a second degree burn, not a doctor, but I am letting The blisters weep. Funny thing is, I was working on a bone broth, for protein and collagen, and now I've got a Second degree burn that needs protein and collagen. I am taking care of it, Torrent (talk) 09:55, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Water Fluoridation / RFK Jr.'s fruity nuttiness[edit]

Will we need to brush our teeth more often if flouride is removed from the water supply? Vital Forces (talk) 01:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)


Dentists, like doctors, do take a variant of the Hippocratic Oath, which includes "First, do no harm." Consequently, dentists (particularly in association) should advocate for fluoridation of water. Fluoridation nowadays, due to fluoridated toothpaste, primarily protects people with poor dental hygiene and/or lack adequate access to dental care. By advocating for water fluoridation, dental associations are protecting future patients. Bongolian (talk) 03:44, 14 December 2024 (UTC)

To respond to the dumb hidden comment above - it's equally "surprising" that doctors and medical institutions recommend vaccinations - given that they would make more money from treating hordes of sick unvaccinated people. You could make the same argument about any kind of effective preventative medicine.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:51, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
My shithead of a father was of this ilk. Used to think/say that teachers 'encouraging reading' was because they got backhanders from 'the bookshop' and sending kids home with books to read was 'lazy teachers' trying to get him to do shit that was their job. The man quite literally couldn't accept that anyone, ever had any motivations for anything past their narrow self-interest and wasn't constantly trying to fuck you over (though this was partly psychological projection because he was a lazy, selfish cunt who would fuck you over the moment he thought he could). But onto fluoride.
I've done a little looking and flouride's effectiveness may not be as big as it used to be - to whit, the studies came from the 70s where fluoride toothpaste wasn't that common (http source). Kids/people are also drinking a lot less water than they used to, which lessens even further it's effect. KarmaPolice (talk) 15:40, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
"Any accusation made by reactionaries is a confession." Carthage (talk) 15:45, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
If you already have proper tooth care it's not necessary to change anything individually. It's mainly put in the water to prevent dental problems in impoverished children. Chillpilled (talk) 17:34, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Incorrect. Fluoride helps all teeth retain strength and cavity resistance - so it benefits adults too. It's just that it's benefit is maximised in children, similar to the fact calcium uptake is always welcome but particularly for people with growing bones. KarmaPolice (talk) 18:26, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
The problem here is the source of the recent revival of this topic is more into good ol' John Birch Society style batshit insane conspiracies. Water fluoridation (set at a proper level) is harmless at worst and helpful to the impoverished at best. It is also very cheap to do. Now, yes, there are some valid concerns about setting the correct level of fluoride in water (since people today are more exposed to other things with fluoride compared to 50 years ago). But RFK Jr. types tend to go off the deep end and ascribe a wide variety of ills to water fluoridation that make no sense.
Such is what I expect even on subjects of which RFK Jr. is actually correct about, such as tackling the excessive amount of ultra-processing and chemical additives in food. The US is far more over-permissive about this than other national food regulators and some tightening up surely would be welcome. What I expect, though, is that RFK Jr. will take all that political capital and shoot it down a whackdoodle conspiracy hole. Most of the populace, as well as the governing types and the regulators themselves, will then ignore the batshit insane advice and carry on as usual. Essentially, that's what is largely happening right now in Florida on several subjects with Joseph Ladapo,Wikipedia a batshit insane conspiracy-theory laden anti-vaccination movement member who somehow got the nod to be the surgeon general of Ron DeSantis. BobJohnson (talk) 18:33, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
You'll likely find fluoride is in your toothpaste. Chillpilled (talk) 22:48, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
What I understand is that mild excessive fluorine only causes cosmetic ills, which is gonna be judged as much more a 'minus/bad' in a country is a obsessed with porcelain perfection (which is why I've never heard about it in the UK). So it is general stupid 'natural is best' chemphobia (ignoring the fact there's places with natural fluoride).
But yeah, it is sad that RFK has some views I'd support (going after ultra-processed foods) and I'd actually cheer him on if his 'Make America healthy again' meant he started gunning for poor labelling, shit school foods, incidences of malnutrition, going after excess salt/HFCS, access to fitness activities etc - but you just know that is the stuff which the ghouls will kill off. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:07, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
A lot of people live in food deserts. One likely avenue by which these ghouls will "help" is by attempting to restrict food stamps coverage to shit like fresh fruit only. Good luck getting fresh fruit in a food desert. Carthage (talk) 19:22, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Why? The ghouls are the ones which got tomato ketchup defined as 'fruit'! They not gonna stop SNAP payments for ultra processed shit! KarmaPolice (talk) 19:35, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Ultra Processed Foods are the new scare. While high-fat, high-salt, low-fiber food is obviously unhealthy - it's unhealthy for these reasons. Not necessary because it's "ultra-processed".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:52, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
True - there are some UPFs which can be considered 'good for you'. Most 'Quorn' meat fakeries, nutrition-enriched breads and plain protein/fibre powders, off the top of my head. I'm old enough to remember the big debate whether tinned/frozen fruit/veg 'counted' or not. But my rule of thumb is that UPFs are probably 'bad' unless proven otherwise (note I said ultra-processed shit). KarmaPolice (talk) 21:18, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
One problem is that the term results in "generic lists of bad foods" and these lists can miss wide variety of preparation technique. To take one example, "crisps" are usually thrown in the "ultra-processed" category. But crisps certainly can be made at home, and the product of a home-cook (typical recipe: wash potatoes, slice potatoes thinly, maybe blanch them and/or rinse them of excess starch, pan-fry them or home-deep fry them, and seasons with some salt and simple dried seasoning) is well away from something like a Pringle, where the potatoes are pulverized, dehydrated, mixed with shit like wheat starch and various flours, cut into "perfect" potato chip shapes, flash-fried, and then seasoned with a wide variety of stuff, including some outright lab chemicals for flavor or taste.
Crisps will never be the healthiest thing, but the homemade crisp certainly isn't "ultra-processed". Actually, such might not even be too terrible health wise if you stay away from deep-frying and avoid excessive salt; there ain't nothing wrong with a potato. Where a Pringle certainly is "ultra-processed" and there isn't much you can do to make it not unhealthy (except "don't buy it"). It's a bit of a flippant example, but it goes to show (as BobM said) that it's *what* is in the food (chemical garbage), or what it *lacks* (nutrition), that is the problem. Not the food itself per se. (And this is exactly where RFK Jr is going to go all wrong -- already he's questionably targeting seed oils as The Sin of All Things. Er, no.). BobJohnson (talk) 21:56, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
'Homemade' anything (if it's somewhat approaching scratch) normally exits the UPF category because as a rule we're not into applying various items etc designed to make the thing look better, have a longer shelf-life and/or reduce unit cost in our own homes. Even more importantly, a lot of UPFs are nutritionally shit because 'piles of flavoured carbs' is the cheapest game in town - which coupled with their long shelf-lives often end up being the sorts heavily sold in corner shops and grocers which cater to poor people (as Carthage points out above).
Now I think of it, it very well may be that RFK is 'the best' in the Trump cabinet morally - that while half-bats, I suspect he means well. KarmaPolice (talk) 03:23, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
This is nuts. Steve Jobs only ate fruit and died from cancer in his 50s. Ultra processed foods are what my grandparents, a couple of whom are still alive today in their late 90s continue to subsist on. You want an Oscar Mayer ham sandwich on white with a squirt of mayo and a side of Lay's? Boy do I have the hostess for you, you can even pick one. The two that died from fast cancer were both WWII vets who were probably exposed to a lot more uranium radiation than the US wants to talk about. I don't think it's ultra processed foods. Overeating caused by a lack of nutritional value, maybe I can see, but I don't think it's salts or nitrates or preservatives shortening lives, you can have a hot dog. My great grandpa was 102 when he passed. I think genetics play a large role. Lucky me, there's no history of Alzheimer's or dementia in my family. Torrent (talk) 08:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────It's incorrect to completely dismiss the highly-processed food relationship to poor health. Regarding claims you make/allude to, Torrent: 1) High salt intake is associated with high blood pressure, which can lead to kidney disease, heart disease and stroke.[1][2] 2) Alzheimers/dementia is not entirely cause by genetics.[3] 3) Steve Jobs died from abandoning medicine, not from fruit. 4) Highly-processed foods tend to be low in fiber. A low-fiber diet increases the risk of constipation, which itself can cause heart attacks.[4] Bongolian (talk) 08:32, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

good to know that sh***ing on the daily means my heart won't crap out? I mentioned overeating because of a nutritional defecit, i'm not advocating against eating veggies, I'm saying processed foods are not killing you. steamed frozen Broccoli and Brussels sprouts make up a lot of my sides. Torrent (talk) 08:47, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
A nutritionally healthy diet has enough 'give' in it to admit the occasional fast-food burger, slice of cake, frozen pizza or glass (or two) of beer - but the point is occasional. The little bit of cake is a treat, not because 'it is 2pm'. It's also possible to find/make 'less bad' variants of these (though it usually more expensive); there's a premade supermarket pizza I like which is stuffed with lean-ish protein and loads of veggies.
With the 'eating fruit' thing - no, you will die in short order if you eat only fruit. Every now and then there's a sad case where parents basically killed their little kids on it. Why? because of nutritional deficiencies. The rule of thumb is that the more restrictive your diet is, the more careful you need to be to ensure your diet is balanced - such as vegans and iron/b12. Jobs died because because he abandoned modern medicine, but unless he cheated and had 'refeeds' from his fruitarian diet (or supplemented to hell and/reports were bollocks) chances are he was plagued with minor ailments because his body was shit at healing due to mild malnutrition. (I personally think a lot more than imagined are mildly malnourished, but isn't noticeable because they don't have visible/obvious symptoms).
One of the keys for fibre is that (like protein) it helps satiety - ie the 'feel full' message to get you quit eating. Carbs simply don't cut this; which causes excess calorie consumption. Which is one of the reasons poor people are fatter now - protein is more expensive and so they see a lot less of it. Remember the bit where I pointed out a lot of UPFs are 'piles of cheap carbs'? Even more importantly, UPFs are designed to be 'moreish' so you buy more of it.
If your grandparents are in their 90s, that means they would have been reared in a world before 'the modern American diet' fully arrived. Even more importantly, they would have better ideas what 'individual portions' should really look like (this is another issue: not just overeating because 'it is there' but also folks who grew up poor and subconsciously 'feel guilty' towards 'wasting food'). Lastly I will point out the 'skinnyfat' concept - where folks can look thin ('healthy') but their internals are more akin to being fat ('unhealthy').
Poor diets are a well-known factor in both limiting life expectancy and health expectancy in the advanced world. We can't do much with the genetic hand we've been dealt and accidents always happen, but now as we've (generally) eliminated infectious diseases we're left with 'lifestyle' issues - poor diet, too much booze/drugs, lack of exercise, obesity, stress, smoking etc. So in this case, it's you who are nuts, Torrent. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:51, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
As I said before - the question is what is in the food - not weather it ultraprocessed or not.
Consider this healthy breakfast. High-fiber low-sugar cereal with soy milk (or any other plant-based milk). Wholegrain toast with low-calorie spread. Some yoghurt with all the good bifidus. Some coffee with the same milk. All the foods listed here would (or could) be called ultraprocessed.
On the other hand there are indescribably unhealthy ultraprocessed foods too. But they are unhealthy because of the massive amounts of fat, sugar, salt they contain - not necessarily because they are ultraprocessed.
To consider it another way. Let's imagine that your diet consisted completely of fried eggs and chips with loads of salt. This would certainly not be ultraprocessed (depending on the oil) - and it certainly wouldn't be healthy either.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 14:24, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
True, something I've also pointed out. However, in general terms the Venn circles of 'UPFs' and 'nutritionally shit' are rather tight. KarmaPolice (talk) 15:15, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Yogurt is actually an interesting food here because most people indeed stereotype it in the very healthy category. However:
A) Most flavored yogurt will rather prominently list sugar as one of the top ingredients. Oops.
B) A lot of flavored yogurt will contain the mysterious "natural flavors" moniker. Possibly fine, but from an American perspective: we're not as strict on testing chemicals (with more leeway due to a "generally recognized as safe" loophole), and the US is slower to re-evaluate chemicals in case new data comes in that may show problems (the case of erythrosineWikipedia comes to mind here). Perhaps all those "natural flavors" are safe, but the data lacks.
C) Most yogurt here will sneak in a few thickening agents, such as "modified food starch" and pectin, even in the unflavored varieties. These are used as thickeners and to stabilize the yogurt. Now, something like pectin's been around for a couple of centuries, so you can be more certain about that additive. Modified food starch is newer; so far it's tested as safe, but Google's search AI seems to think that the long term data is not clear at this point.
Many lists of ultra-processed foods will actually put only flavored yogurt in the "ultra processed" category, as point (C) is pretty minor. BobJohnson (talk) 17:18, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
My opinion is the that "down with ultra processed food" brigade have been seduced by some version of the appeal to nature.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Not always from my view... an older largely equivalent term for "ultra-processed food" was junk food.Wikipedia Such stuff has been known to be bad for a while. Of course, some will probably overdo it and over-apply it to far too much or overfocus on certain thingss.
The challenge with this food always has been this: whether you call it ultra-processed or junk, such is also very very shelf stable and (usually) quite cheap. So from my perspective, saying "junk food bad" doesn't help much -- that's been known for decades now. The issue is making more nutritious food more affordable and more available. BobJohnson (talk) 18:39, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
We may be going in circles here. Some mass-produced food is bad. And it has a long history. Some mass- produced food is not bad. But it all gets swept up into the same basket. I also think the movement has some of its roots in Food Babe nuttiness.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:16, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
'Mass produced' and 'ultra processed' are two different things. And the coining of the latter term allowed stuff like say, Pop-Tarts to be hived off from the merely 'processed' (and mass produced) like cheese. 'UPF' is a fair shorthand but it needs to be remembered it is just shorthand and to avoid map/territory issues, similar to the fact we need to remember there is no such 'race' called 'multiracial'.
The critical issue here is that there's a segment of the population who see 'getting rid of UPFs' as a silver bullet health-wise, which it clearly isn't. That not only is there times a 'UPF' either neutral or even positive (folic fortification for example) but there are also 'normal' foods which are not always 'good for you'. But I also believe that a govt 'crackdown' on UPFs could be cut right - for example, removing the health halo from nutritionally shit yoghurts, fruit juices and breakfast cereals while allowing those UPFs which are 'nutritionally dense' to continue. KarmaPolice (talk) 10:52, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
UPF would probably make a good RW article.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:13, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
RFK's Fruity Nuttiness would be a cereal I'd buy. What would the slogan be? 'I'm not really qualified to tell you what's in it, but yum' Torrent (talk) 05:26, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Legalese and The Death of Honest Advertising[edit]

So, the whole thing is, A guy ordered boneless chicken wings, got a chicken bone stuck in his throat, accused the restaurant of serving him chicken wings with bones, and the Ohio Supreme court said 'Those ain't wings, it's chicken breast, you're a stupid consumer.'. More, they said common sense dictates that if it's chicken, it may contain bones while simultaneously saying boneless has nothing more than an advertising purpose. Chicken matters, but because 'wings' doesn't then 'boneless' doesn't, because 'Chicken fingers' is a dish and nobody thinks chickens have fingers. An article I disagree with lays it out like it isn't stupid. https://www.hklaw.com/en/insights/publications/2024/08/court-decision-concerning-boneless-chicken-wings-ignites

Chicken shouldn't matter much, then. I understand America is represented as an overly litigious country, but I mean, A chicken bone in boneless chicken wings. That's not a slam dunk unless you make some wild connections. Chicken is chicken, I been to a Mexican restaurant and found a bunch of bones in a burrito. Guess what, it was 15 year olds in the back. Chew your food, obviously, but I don't like this 'you can call anything boneless wings and as long as it ain't got wings, there can be bones' line of legal argument. What a trash conclusion.

Who knew https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=cAV8bdsnDDc Torrent (talk) 06:33, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think there's ever been an 'era of honest advertising', more a simple fact that SCOTUS has become a lot more pro-corp since, say the 80s - along with starved/defanged orgs like the FDA, USDA etc. KarmaPolice (talk) 12:04, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
The Ohio Supreme Court is not the same entity as the Supreme Court of the United States. Carthage (talk) 12:46, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Heh. However, lower courts are bound by SCOTUS rulings. Plus, like the previous working out who ended up on bench in the first place - US judges all too-often end up being tight with corp interests to an extent we'd never allow here in Blighty. KarmaPolice (talk) 13:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Oh, absolutely. It's just, in this case: this is a matter of Ohio law, not federal law. Otherwise you're entirely correct. And it's quite probable that SCOTUS would cite the Ohio case as precedent in the future. Carthage (talk) 14:06, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
I don't really think there is such a thing as honest advertisement at all. Capitalism is capitalism, consumerism is consumerism. Kadashova (talk) 15:57, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
I think it's possible - as in, adverts which are informative and fundamentally truthful. A lot of 'business to business' adverts are of this type. KarmaPolice (talk) 16:40, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
I guess it would have been more correct to call it 'a new legal syntactical justification for broader use of terms outside of inherent meaning without consequence when providing consumers goods/services that they, as consumers, must be inherently more responsible for the contents of by virtue of purchasing, but only when they are the end consumer, putting the onus on every consumer to accept all risk, the contract being singularly the purchase of said item and not any potential of the good/service to cause harm within the reasonable use of said good/service (i.e. eating the chicken)' which still I'm sure isn't correct, but I'm not speaking in legalese. I'm saying I really don't like state supreme court level definitions of adjectives as throwaway words in advertising. I'm not saying it's new, everyone knows you can't flush any cleaning product advertised as 'flushable' down the toilet. Or if because 'stainless steel' can get stains, but if cleaned properly you could call it 'antimicrobial stainless steel' since if you clean the stains, you're inherently cleaning. If it were 'harmless flushable' then 'harmless' gets a pass, because flushing something that sticks up your pipes isn't exactly 'harm' as there is precedent that you don't flush the stuff unless you expect and are ready to deal with blockages inherent to flushing 'flushable' items, and so harmless has nothing to do with your dog croaking after drinking out the toilet bowl. Harmless never meant anything was safe regardless of any chemical that might be in the product, you big dumb idiot, train your dog to not drink out the toilet. I'm just giving the worst marketers ideas at this point. The point is, it's bad precedent, especially during a deregulation push. Like, everybody agreed when China didn't regulate their products it was net bad and watch out for products from China because you don't know what's in em. But now that's all forgotten and the attitude towards the cost of doing business is startup capital alone and that afterwards business must not incur any cost, even in the face of lax or unethical business practices. Torrent (talk) 07:34, 17 December 2024 (UTC)

Doctors and tyrants[edit]

Engineers and woo, meet doctors and dictators. Carthage (talk) 10:35, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Thinking about how surgeons and that are able to hold things together when assisting with nightmare injuries or illnesses, I've always thought that they must have some type of detachment from the people they're seeing (i.e it's just a piece of meat with maggots in it, definitely not a living person's gangrenous arm). Impiricism (talk) 15:30, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Hm. That does sound like something we could write an article on if we can find more sources to confirm that it's an actual trend and not some weird coincidence. LeCapraGrande (talk) 22:32, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
I was recently in India on a work trip, and my much younger coworker and I were talking (through a translator) to a man who had 25 year old burns on both legs that never properly healed; our job was to ask what people could do to help him. When he showed them, scarred and sloughing off flaps of skin all over, we had opposite reactions. She's never seen anything like this, and was so upset she had to leave (which was fine, there's a reason we were together); I have seen a few gory things before, and I figured if he'd been the one with his legs burned raw for 25 years, I could stand there and talk to him for a couple minutes. As hard as it was to see, I was so much better off than he was that I owed it to him to stay there and hear him out. At the end, though I couldn't do anything right then and there, he thanked me and said it meant a lot that we were the first people who'd ever bothered to just ask him how someone could make his life better, that made it worth having done it. Takes a certain personality and mentality, for sure. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 06:31, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
In more general terms, I'm reminded of a comment from a reporter over the British doctor's strike earlier this year - 'negotiating with doctor's unions is terrible. They're full of doctors, who are hugely arrogant. I suspect it's due to them having to make life-death decisions over people every day'. Part of this could be a 'piece of meat' mentality caused by case-hardening but I also suspect there's a [mild] case of 'institutionalised narcissism' going on, partly because doctors need to make said judgement calls all the time and you can't do this if you're constantly riddled with doubt. From what I can tell, a lot of medical establishments [esp traditionally] are very hierarchical and frankly authoritarian - patients don't question staff, nurses don't question doctors, doctors don't question the dept heads etc. Like military people, this might indoctrinate a 'respect chain 'o command' mentality which ends up being in dictatorial regimes.
Lastly, we need to be a little wary in thinking all our doctor-tyrants wanted to be doctors. Some of the 'third world' examples might have become doctors because it was one of the very few chances of getting an advanced, Western education for free, and/or that they saw the 'respect' being given to the white coat. For a long time, a 'medical degree' was one of the few you could actually get from a university [the other one being 'theology', with the resultant effect of lots of not-very-religious imams/priests/etc taking positions of worldly power]. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:51, 10 December 2024 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────this would make a great blog entry. The G (talk) 03:35, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

i just added it to blogs. The G (talk) 04:27, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Writing Advice[edit]

I wanted to ask if anyone on the wiki has writing advice. I don't know if the wiki has some artists among scientists and academics, but if there are some then what would be good tips to writing a good story? I'm 25 and starting from almost scratch. Does anyone have advice for fiction and/or creative writing? And for academics, does anyone have advice to improve academic writing? Especially from someone who never learned what paraphrasing was in college and only used direct quotes. I'd like to do better with my writing. ModeratelyR3 (talk) 00:23, 11 December 2024 (UTC)

Practice at writing is important. Beginning fiction writers can find local writers' groups helpful for critiquing each others work in a group setting. I have heard from a reliable source that Walter Mosley's book "This Year You Write Your Novel" is very helpful. For science writing, practice is also important: read quality popular science, such as Science News (https://www.sciencenews.org/) or Scientific American. Another way to practice if you can get a chance is proof-reading scientists' writing before it gets published. Bongolian (talk) 08:37, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
'When people ask me if I went to film school, I tell them, 'No, I went to films".' - Quentin Tarantino.
So read. Lots. Fiction, non-fiction, fictionalised non-fiction. Essays, journalism, novels. Familiarise yourself with 'the classics' as well as modern bestsellers. Do critical reading; as in you properly sit down and engage in the text - noting how the writer has assembled the tale they're presenting to you as well as the tale itself. Sit down, dig out your favourite novels and write reviews on them. The fact nobody will [most likely] ever read the reviews is irrelevant; they're exercises in both writing analysis [the text] and your own writing skills [the review]. Do similar with some of your most hated novels also - to set down what is wrong with the damn thing. After awhile, you'll start to be able to intelligently critique what you've read - what 'works' and what doesn't and so on. Over time, extend yourself from reviews to essays/short stories, slowly working your way up.
Pure academic writing is somewhat different, as it's geared around the concise and accurate transmission of information [while 'soft' nonfiction aims to also entertain somewhat]. It's very similar to 'technical writing' such as instruction manuals, except the 'assumed knowledge' level is a lot higher. Academic writing has a reputation of a turgid, prolix and polysyllabic style which is partly justified - half the time it's simply that your 'knowledge level' is simply too low to understand, while the other half is the fact the author(s) weren't really taught how to write in their uni course [I think this is partly why computer game stories are poor when compared to other mediums; game-maker courses focus on the 'sciency' nuts/bolts but not the 'creative' storytelling side. I know folks in the industry, and their 'creative training' was basically zero]. KarmaPolice (talk) 09:48, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
There will be plenty of groups in 'the usual social media' - with different levels of friendliness and ranging from 'fairly vanilla' to 'grimdark and dead dove', and particular areas of interest. Possibly also explore fanfic (check the listing of fanfic terminology).
The chief points are to write as well as you can, do not annoy the readers or the characters, and 'your taste is not my taste, and that's OK.' Anna Livia (talk) 18:43, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
This is why I said 'read lots and review them'. Because when it comes down to people saying whether a work is 'good' or 'bad' is often only done on the criteria of 'I liked it' or not - for example, almost all the praise for Atlas Shrugged is from folks who sign up for Rand's fucked-up philosophy while others who cite the Bible are either Christians or those giving it 'the respect it deserves' as the keystone of a global religion. Yet, from an objective POV, both are poor works - as in 'the technical skill of the writers is poor'. On the other way, you can read a work where the 'story' left you cold but you could appreciate the technical skill displayed by the author. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:09, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
I always wondered about the issues with Rand. I have been debating about reading any of her work. I was a bit turned off by the summary of Atlas Shrugged but I thought The Fountainhead sounded like an interesting story. It sounds like an artist going against a system to innovate his expression of creation; which I always thought was a leftist theme. I still also think that individualism is not always bad but do agree that it can be toxic. Though I hope that isn't a balance fallacy. I also think that collectivism can lead to toxic outcomes as well but also now see some of the benefits of collectivism in a society. And finally, I am curious about the criticism of technical quality in the Bible. What technical criticisms do you see that I overlooked? Also, I never read the whole bible only parts of it, and I am an agnostic. ModeratelyR3 (talk) 01:34, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Probably one of the more interesting contemporary reviews of Atlas Shrugged came from Whittaker ChambersWikipedia in the National Review. I say "interesting" because there's a shade of similarity in their backgrounds -- Rand disliked communism because the Bolshevik Revolution seriously fucked her bourgeois Russian family up; Chambers originally was an American commie spy, but reversed his viewpoint and became fully conservative after Stalin's murderous bullshittery. Rand's writing issues are described within that review, which could be summarized as: A) two-dimensional black-and-white writing; B) too long-winded; C) too preachy.
Rand succeeded in spite of her poor writing simply because she wrote a polemic for bourgeois assholes who think they know everything, and there's plenty of people like that out there. Basically, you can throw a lot of "good writing rules" out the window when it comes to politics / religious / cult / grift shit, in addition to other categories such as exploitation or pulp. "Marketing" and "audience targeting" is far more important for these categories. BobJohnson (talk) 03:03, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
Rand's also been criticised due to poor characterisation and plots that don't really make sense; the bits of Shrugged I tried to read more than anything else told me that Rand didn't seem to really get how either companies or people actually functioned - from the idea that an 'exec strike' would instantly cause everything to stop because they're so damn productive [and the lower ranks can't do anything without their constant guidance] or the fact Rearden is a dickwad straight out of a Horatio Alger story which unless he completely worked alone all the way is stealing at least partial credit for his new alloy from the sci/tech folks in his employ who helped it possible [it's like Bill Gates claiming every MS product until 2014 was his work and his alone, when reality states the last project he personally worked on in a 'coal-face' capacity was the BASIC interpreter in 1983 and the last product he had any supervisory input on was Windows XP in 2001]. Fountainhead is a bit better [from the synopsis at least] but not by much; it goes from 'inexplicable' to merely 'unlikely' events-chain - in this respect, The Simpsons episode 'Pokey Mom' regarding the prison artist 'Jack Crowley' is perhaps a better story about 'keeping true to your art' than Fountainhead. It is, if nothing else a lot quicker to consume. If you genuinely wish to think about the merits of individualism/collectivism you'd be a lot better-served actually reading say, nonfiction studies of that issue. But again, why do you seem to think that 'being creative' is a leftist thing?
The Bible sucks as a text to read because it's a random cobbling together of loads of different texts, by different people, in different styles, with a welter of contradictions and with varying purposes. Just think - as a rule, we do not have a professional class of 'literature explainers', do we? Most folks can fathom the plot from a Dickens novel or the meanings from Ayn Rand without professional support, as long as their reading level was high enough. But no; when it comes to scripture, we need someone to explain to us what each bit means. This shows if nothing else, it is very poorly written from a technical POV. It's the only text which I've encountered in my life where it's regularly encouraged for you to read a commentary alongside the main text - even the 'Student Guides' for texts are much more merely 'memory aids' along with not that subtle hints on what the exam questions might be. KarmaPolice (talk) 13:01, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Personal Questions about Self[edit]

I know that this is the second time I used the Saloon for advice, but I wanted to ask everyone something about identity and experience. I am a 25-year-old from Texas who graduated from UNT. I wanted to know if this is a detrimental factor to my character rather than something positive or interesting. Basically, after reading the Texas page and also noticing creationist scientists came from Texas and even UNT. It made me wonder whether I need to move somewhere like New York or Massachusetts with a better education ranking or if UNT is still a respectable university to learn at (especially since it is closest to me). I also have sentimentality for Texas as I have lived here all my life and believe there are good things about its culture that aren't always rooted in racism, intolerance, bigotry, or ignorance. It feels like I am going through a quarter-life crisis about my identity. And want to know if someone from the Lone Star state could stand on the same level of understanding, empathy, intelligence, and creativity as someone from The Big Apple. ModeratelyR3 (talk) 19:16, 12 December 2024 (UTC)

Don't let the classists get you down. Carthage (talk) 19:49, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
There is no obvious 'red flags'; it's not a diploma mill, a fundie outfit, some 'weirdo' experimental place and/or an overpriced daycare for the rich to park their stupid spawn at. There has been folks who have graduated more 'tainted' places [think say, ex-Mormons who went to Brigham Young] where they've gone on 'to live it down', even if they'd studied theology. So some unpleasants went to the same place as you - that can be said for any place. UNT has 448,000 living alumni [as of 2020]. I'm sure there's going to be few murderers, fraudsters, drug dealers and sex offenders in there somewhere too.
Don't sweat it. In ten years, most folks won't give a real damn where you went - because it's the shit you've done since which matters. Nobody's asked me where I went to school for years and very rarely what Uni I went to. At most, you'll have future employers looking it up to see 'how good' it is [which will usually be by judging it's rankings] and leave it at that [which means you're more likely going to be dinged for it 'being an average uni' than any personal associations. The only shit which is really 'on your permanent record' are major convictions, registration as a sex offender, personal bankruptcy and being a wanted criminal - everything else shall fade to nothingless eventually. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:12, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
To give one example, Rice University is a university with a very good reputation nationally, located in Houston Texas.
My thoughts on college: pick a set to target based on what career you want to have, as well some consideration for what the job prospects are within the surrounding area. You wouldn't want to stay in Texas for instance if you are aiming to be, say, a NYC Wall Street Big Finance career type. But if you are aiming for, say, some technical job at a Texas energy firm, a Texas university would fit. Sure it's possible to get recruited out of state, especially if there are no jobs in what you are good at in the area (one of my wife's family now works in Los Angeles because Louisiana is a shithole for comp sci jobs). But a lot of job recruitment is local, especially for a more "regional" university like UNT. It helps to have places to intern and network etc. BobJohnson (talk) 20:17, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
I'll also say that sometimes you can have a case where while the establishment is not generally thought that well of, a particular degree/section of it is. For example, here in Blightly the 'University of Hertfordshire' is derided as being one of the worst in country [last year #84th out of 130] and with traditionally very low entry requirements but it's Nursing degree is very well-thought of. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:30, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
be proud of where you are from if you want to. im sure there is plenty to be proud of. texan culture and character, a texan lifestyle certainly distinct enough and uniquely texan enough to be an attractive place for many. similarly new york has its own thing going on and thats deeply attractive to lots of people too. seem like very different places very different vibes. someone attracted to life one place might be repelled by life in the other place. it must stuck to live in the one place while yearning for the other. if you stuck in new york and you hate everything about the city and dream of rodeos and coweboys and wide open spaces, you probably more fucked than being texan and pining for the big apple. being a state, a massive one at that, there are big cities to move to. wont be the same as ny, but a whole lot closer to a cosmopolitan metropolis vibe than you would be trying to recreate life on the range in new york city.
i shouldnt feel inferior to folk from new york either. all big cities have an allure that draws people to them, draws all attention locally, nationally, and places like new york, globally. its not that they have a greater levels 'understanding, empathy, intelligence, and creativity'. its that for anyone wirth these traits, big cities usually present more opportunities to shine. they are not unique to big cities or new york specifically. and never forget while ny gave us the creativity of, for example, lou reed it also gave us donald trump. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:23, 12 December 2024 (UTC)
I read the question as more as OP wondering whether their attendance of said Uni would be a 'CV stain' ie something crap which would later impede professional progress. That perhaps they need to some post-grad work at a 'better' Uni to improve employability. I'm very ill suited to give anything more than very very general advice and would personally suggest they either reach out to either someone already established in the career they'd like and/or ask for advice from a lecturer at their Uni which they respect/have built up some personal rapport with for advice. I wouldn't suggest careers advisor/centres because the consensus I've heard both sides of the Pond is that they suck hugely. KarmaPolice (talk)
You generally do not need to consider "culture", as far as pure employment goes, if you aren't going to some crackpot school / diploma mill. A "school" like Liberty University is only useful if you want employment in the fundie system. Something like UNT is fine. Of course, whether or not you fit in with / like the culture can play a role in the decision process... but it is sort of separate. I'm not a big fan of Texas "as a whole" personally... but that is my opinion and mine alone. If you like Texas culture, great! Obviously there are "pockets for everyone" in practically every state, too, it's not like the whole state is all Fundie Hicksville or some other lame stereotype. (I mean, despite my overall opinion, I did like Austin... though I haven't been back in years and have heard rumors that it's not as delightfully quirky as it used to be.)
There are a few caveats to this, though. The "racism, intolerance, bigotry, or ignorance" may matter if you are going into a field by the politics of such. For example, elements of women's health are affected by the fundies' medically ignorant obsession with abortion, so if that is your career path, I would think avoiding fundie states (Texas included) would be a priority. Different states have different economic models and that may play a factor. Texas has no state income tax and is more affordable than many places, but has New England-level property taxes and some other "gotchas". If you plan on having kids, the mediocre level of Texas public education could also be a factor (though US education varies wildly by town or even district, the big Dominionism private-Jesus school push in Texas by a few Jesus freak oil CEOs would worry me personally). Long-term, Texas is... not the best positioned state for the effects of climate change.
In other words, I don't think one needs to worry about "CV stain"... that is not an issue. But factors like the above might. Or might not. "It's all up to you" in the end. BobJohnson (talk) 04:29, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
I've read all of the responses and thank everyone for their feedback. It also helped me remember a couple of details I forgot to mention in the main post. I never thought of my state as a tainted place. I've always loved Texas and still think it's a great state that could stand against others like New York Massachusetts. I do know that our history has problems but I would like to think we have some positive elements. RW has opened my eyes up a bit though. For instance, I did learn about the Mexican-American War but still see The Battle of the Alamo as a historic and heroic last stand. But I do know part of the reason for the war as a whole (something that wasn't abolished until 1865). My goals in life are to be a writer and game developer, and I have questioned whether I can do that because it feels like my life has taken a massive realization. I recently found myself on Breadtube and it's made me question a lot. And I have found myself becoming more left-leaning. But also uncertain as to whether I have a story as a 25-year-old straight, white, middle-class male who lived in Texas all his life. Or if I am destined to be a "lit-bro" or outdated writer or creator. And I did want to go back to UNT because it's the closest college to me and I always found it nice. And I am still learning things about life I should have learned at 18. I'm growing up pretty slowly but making progress. I thought UNT would be a good college to do a Master's degree, earn Academic Certificates or even to learn in general. I didn't know if moving to a more left-leaning state was required to be a good writer or person. Because I still think Texas has a great setting with potential for fiction, stories, and video games; and I can rehabilitate its image, small towns, and rural landscapes as something good and not bad. I mean the small towns and metros and some of the cities and rural landscapes are the settings I grew up in. The experiences that could serve as my inspiration. I don't, however, have a deep theme like race, gender, or sexuality so I worry my stories will be bland or boring or quickly outdated. Finally, I wanted to ask whether any evangelical/religious/ college could be a decent school. I have a relative who went to Letourneau but then transferred to UNT to be closer to family; though their degree was in a scientific field. Yet they miss the school because they made friends there (it was their first year). Anyway, that's my response. If this clears anything up or makes sense or doesn't at all, please let me know.ModeratelyR3 (talk) 14:56, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
it's important to be familiar with your state. I was born in Kansas, my family moved from wichita a to a trailer park outside of Lawrence, to a tiny house in a really good neighborhood in Shawnee Mission, and I did meet a couple kids from first nations as an American kid, and a black family back at the trailer. I think it is important to know what makes you an American kid, but also to grow into an American adult. Race is a stupid qualifier. Religion is also a dumb way to value the people who you rely on. I drove through rural Kansas one time to help a friend get some clay. I was born in the state, but woof. I am still in the Midwest but it blows my mind how many vehicles rock a 'thin blue line' 'punisher' mashup decal, it's truly awful and has been for a long time. Liking the Punisher and the police at the same time is insane. Torrent (talk) 09:13, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm not exactly sure where the OP is trying to get at here. I mean, first off being 'creative' isn't a 'leftwing activity'. Creatives live to be creative; that while some have a political POV which guides them [or more often, beliefs which both guide them and led to their political ideology] but there's plenty of those who are in a strict sense of the term are fairly apolitical. The main thing which makes them appear 'leftwing' in current American society right now is because the authoritarian cult which is Trump has effectively submerged which is now counted as 'the right'. And regardless to their political leanings, 'creatives' in general suck at being orthodox partisans and they're even less attracted to movements/ideologies which consider their creative output as nothing more than 'propaganda'. It's why closed societies suck at creative output; why the likes of the Soviet Union praised 'proletarian literature' over the 'dissident' literature which we still appreciate today, Nazi Germany banished/killed genuine artists while paying millions for softcore 'Aryan Art' for big galleries which almost nobody wants now and why fundie Christian films are truly terrible - they don't need to be 'good' on a creative level, because the work is judged as good/bad on the ideology of the message alone.
The second bit seems to be a bit of a complaint of 'young-ish person doesn't have much life experience to write about'. Firstly, I doubt you have no experiences to write about - I mean I am neither born c1999, straight, growing up middle-class or having lived in Texas [or anywhere] for all my life so you've clearly have had experiences/stories which I have not [and vice-versa]. In fact, your very usage of the term 'middle class' kinda demands explanation - what is 'middle class'? How old were you when you realised there were 'rungs of society', how old were you when you started to accurately gauge your folks' position on it? How did you act when you realised you were in a situation where you were around folks who were 'outside' of your group? [See, that's a story in itself]. Next, there's the gonzo method - ie 'consciously go out and create/observe experiences'. Lastly, there's gaining experiences second-hand; from chatting to folks who are NotYou to simply 'fly on walling' - ie observing/listening to folks out in public. The cadences and topics of folks on the train, the barista-customer interaction, the shopping baskets at the supermarket. But c'mon, there's lot of creative stuff which doesn't require 'personal experience'. I mean, how the hell did Tolkien write Lord of the Rings? Can't be from 'personal experiences', can it? Stories don't need to be all about race, gender, or sexuality either - I mean, part of my guilty pleasures is I actually enjoy watching Columbo and Murder She Wrote. I notice that those don't really cover those topics. Where the hell did you reach the conclusion that creatives have to cover those topics and nothing else? If it was from a real creative teacher at your Uni, I want names so I can go and slap them with with a trout and ask what the fuck were they thinking.
Lastly, but not least - a lot of paid writing etc is 'creating to order' so personal experience or even interest is irrelevant. Your interest in the topic is your pay packet. Therefore, you go out and use your 'professional skills' to do a decent job on the task regardless to what you feel personally about it. 'It's business, not personal'. You've bought time over my body, mind and skillsets - not emotional investment. KarmaPolice (talk) 11:30, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

A trans character as the main character of a novel (I need opinions on my work)[edit]

Here is an excerpt from the prologue-

On a cool July afternoon in 2013, the world would begin to change. This change had nothing to do with geopolitics or civil unrest; none of the sort. Nobody expected it at all. Nobody saw it coming but civilization would be brought to shambles. Nobody knew what misery that they would suffer. Nobody knew that the recently deceased would come back to life.

These reanimated corpses were not like the undead from the movies and TV shows. These reanimated corpses were not the dumb shamblers. They were smart and cunning; they could run, jump and climb. World militaries had been quickly overwhelmed. Governments quickly collapsed. People were left to fend for themselves in a world overrun.

A ten year old Sasha Angelovski sat in her bed, quietly contemplating her plans for when she grew up. Sasha’s parents were just so cruel to her. If it wasn’t the verbal abuse, it was the physical abuse. She was so close to ending her life. The pain was just too much. When nobody was looking she would slash her own throat. It might have been a sin against God but Sasha was sure that she would be forgiven.

Sasha looked out the window and she saw something strange; a group of people surrounding the neighbor Greg Petrov. The poor man screamed for help but nobody would help him. One of the people grabbed his arm and sunk their teeth into them. He screamed in agony. Soon the group of people tackled him down. Greg screamed for a minute before he stopped. Seconds later Greg got back up and joined the group of people. Sasha screamed in horror.

Soon after Sasha heard gunshots and more screams. She was terrified. What was going on? The next thing Sasha heard was her parents arguing. “Here is the thing, I am a cop. I am supposed to enforce the law” said Dmitry Angelovski. “The situation outside is too dangerous! You have to protect your family including that brat we have” shouted Marka Angelovski.

More gunshots could be heard. Dmitry told his wife, “I have to help out. I took an oath to protect the city. So I will be going to the police station. Keep the doors locked and do not answer the door”. Marka sighed, “Come back alive. I don’t feel like losing my husband”. The door was shut as Dmitry left. Marka locked the door.

Sasha reluctantly went downstairs to see her stepmother crying. Instead of providing comfort Sasha just went to the kitchen and grabbed a sandwich. She saw no point in comforting that woman. All that would happen is a beating. Sasha had enough beatings in her life. However another beating would occur. Marka came into the kitchen and saw Sasha eating a sandwich. For some reason that caused anger to erupt in Marka.

Sasha was grabbed by the front of her shirt and thrown to the floor. She begged her stepmom not to hit her. Those pleas fell on deaf ear. Sasha was kicked in the gut repeatedly. Then she threw the poor kid against the wall. Marka shouted, “Why can’t you be like a normal boy?! You are a boy and will like it”! Sasha cried out in pain. Marka grabbed a pair of scissors and tackled Sasha.

Marka cut Sasha’s long hair. Sasha begged her to stop but she was absolutely determined to cause suffering. The one thing that connected Sasha to womanhood was now gone. Marka just laughed and laughed as she said, “You will always be a boy. I just needed to give you a helping hand”. Sasha just cried on the floor. She just wanted to die. What person would be that cruel?

Quickly Sasha’s concern went from her torment to a shattering window. Marka screamed, “Get out of my house”! An unfamiliar raspy voice replied, “Shut up meat. You are my lunch”. Sasha heard Marka scream followed by a tearing sound. Next came a chewing sound and a loud thump. Then a guy walked into the kitchen; blood was soaked through his shirt and was spread across the mouth. Sasha ran to the back door and opened it up. There was no way she would stick around.

Sasha ran out the door and closed it behind her. In the backyard she heard many gunshots and screams. She ran to the front yard and climbed over the fence and onto the sidewalk. Fear was the only thing keeping Sasha going. Despite wanting to die Sasha felt a spark of survival. Where she would go was an up in the air question. Sevastopol was a big city though so there were plenty of places to go.

Walking down the street Sasha saw several cars crash. Then an air raid siren came on; it sounded throughout the entire city. Screams were now persistent. Sasha needed to find some place that would be safe but that seemed like a tall order. She ran down the street looking for somewhere to hide.

In the prologue my main character is a trans kid. --Trans Fem Agenda 12:28, 15 December 2024 (UTC)

Honestly, this doesn't really grab me. There's no real buildup to what's really going down, you just know from the first paragraph it's a zombie apocalypse story. Something like Highschool of the Dead, The Walking Dead or Dead Set all have a period where the protagonist is gradually putting together what's going on. Show, don't tell, essentially. I'd also like to know how zombies could overwhelm militaries worldwide. They have contingency plans for pretty much every scenario, so unless something major changed, I just find that unrealistic. Ever read World War Z? It goes into how militaries dealt with the outbreak. (The bits about Israel and Palestine haven't really aged well!) Ever seen ManlyBadassHero's playthrough of It's Just A Prank? It also has a Slavic setting and a sense of buildup and impending dread. I'm also not sure how competent a 10 year old will be in survival skills. IntrepidSkeptic (talk) 20:29, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
I second the assessment that “show don’t tell is a massive problem here.” Instead of seeing for myself how things play out, a lot of this, especially the first two paragraphs, read more like a book report than a book. The dialogue is also stilted and unnatural. A lot of the sentences are the same short length and structure, and the narration doesn’t flow as smoothly as it should. Keep at it though. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 21:55, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
My zombies are sentient and can use weapons. I plan to explain the fall of human civilization later. --Trans Fem Agenda 21:30, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
@IntrepidSkeptic Here is the time skip in chapter 1-

Rain fell over the Crimean Human Zone. A mood of misery prevailed among the population. This mood was not because of poverty that the people lived in. No, it was something much worse. It was something very painful and invasive. The event coming up was Tax Day. Everyone hated it but the people refused to rise up against it.

Sasha Angelvski was working at the local bakery in downtown Sevastopol. Her mood was bad. She loathed Tax Day. It was a painful violation of her body, However she had a little joy in life- baking desserts. It was something that made life worth living. She loved her job as a pastry chef. If her cooking could make people happy then it was worth it.

Putting a batch of cookies in the oven Sasha heard her coworker Andre Gonzales singing a song. It was some older song from the 1980’s. She knew that singing was Andre’s way of coping with his life. Sasha didn’t mind it. He was a good singer. That was one thing Sasha liked about him. He was also a good friend; much like a big brother you could rely on. Andre always had Sasha’s back no matter what.

Andre walked up to Sasha and asked, “So sister, any plans for after work”? Sasha replied, “No I don’t”. Andre then asked, “Want to grab a drink at the bar”? Knowing that Tax Day was coming Sasha could use some liquor. Getting hammered sounded like a great idea. “Sure I will join you for a drink. I am in the mood to get shit faced”.

The bell of the door rang as it was opened. Sasha said, “Welcome to Sevastopol Bakery. How may I help you”? The guy who walked in said, “I would like a jelly donut”. Sasha turned and she saw an old man. She recognized him; he saved her life in the initial apocalypse. Sasha was cornered by flesh eaters with no hope of survival. Then came a guy armed with a shotgun. He killed the group of flesh eaters that surrounded her. Sasha owed that man her life. She was eternally grateful.

Sasha said to the old man, “Not a problem Father Adamovich”. She grabbed a fresh jelly donut and put it in a paper bag. Father Adamovich asked her, “How have you been holding up Sasha”? She responded, “I am nervous about Tax Day. Every year I worry that I will die when they tax us”. Father Adamovich looked nervous as well. Sasha empathized with that. Nobody liked Tax Day.

Handing Father Adamovich the baggie, Sasha said, “Enjoy your food”. The priest smiled and took off. Andre asked Sasha, “Who was that”? Sasha replied, “He saved my life when I was a kid. He is a good man who looks out for his community”. Andre said sadly, “There are not many people like that anymore. At least there is some good around”. After the priest left, someone else came in. This person stank like a corpse. Sasha was about to talk but she froze when she saw him; it was one of the flesh eaters.

The flesh eater was missing part of its face. It wore a uniform similar to the Nazis. Its demeanor was threatening. There was nothing good about this encounter. The flesh eater said in a raspy voice, “I would like the daily special”. Sasha wanted to gag; she knew what the creature meant. She told the flesh eater, “Just give me a minute and I will have your order”.

--Trans Fem Agenda 13:08, 16 December 2024 (UTC)

The assessment that you should "show, not tell" once again sticks here. Let's use this passage as an example.
"Sasha Angelvski was working at the local bakery in downtown Sevastopol. Her mood was bad. She loathed Tax Day. It was a painful violation of her body, However she had a little joy in life- baking desserts. It was something that made life worth living. She loved her job as a pastry chef. If her cooking could make people happy then it was worth it."
Instead, try something like this reorganized passage:
"Sasha walked down the sidewalk, the sky was a dreary grey, and it had just rained. She walked down the humid path, but stopped for a second to check her phone. Her top notification was a notification about the date: today was Tax Day. She slouched in her stride suddenly, disheveled by the news. She raised her head again and caught sight of her workplace a little while away: The bakery. She righted herself, smiling a little, and straightened her nametag, almost as if she was taking pride of her new task in mind; leading the kitchen."
This kind of writing is more engaging and reveals information naturally. I'm aware it is still sort of clunky but you get the gist. Could do better if I had more than twenty minutes. Alastor (talk) 18:43, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Hope you don't mind if I used that. https://docs.google.com/document/d/1hW3YwAF0_MuyJaEX7x7fRWWncRFfwRpg_K_c9_wVBjg/edit?usp=sharing --Trans Fem Agenda 22:44, 16 December 2024 (UTC)
Have you looked into 'fanfic and similar topics' where there will probably be coverage to suit your interests. (Take note of any tags and other warnings.) Anna Livia (talk) 10:26, 17 December 2024 (UTC)
My plan is to have my character be a reluctant hero who leads an army against the zombie hoards. --Trans Fem Agenda 12:36, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Collapse of the Assad regime in Syria[edit]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.theguardian.com/world/live/2024/dec/08/syria-bashar-al-assad-damascus-rebels-latest-updates-live

Looks like a government collapses. What is next? --Trans Fem Agenda 12:51, 8 December 2024 (UTC)

While the collapse has been less 'sudden' than outsiders think [here's a Foreign Policy thinkpiece from July which shows how the regime was clearly crumbling and it's economy has been falling to bits for years] I suspect it was still too sudden for the opposition forces to really start thinking of the 'post Assad regime'. There's two complicating factors; the fact the opposition was not in anyway a 'unified front' [unlike say, the Afghan Taliban] where senior members can simply have govt posts distributed to them and the looks that part of said collapse was due to significant defections from the ruling regime.
In short; classic power vacuum. We have a rag-tag of Sunni opposition groups with no guiding ideology past 'get rid of Baathists', a load of defected Baathists who are hoping to retain as much power as realistically possible to stop revenge/justice, the 'sectarian' forces of Alawites, Druze and Christian fearing future pogroms [esp as a lot (esp Alawites) are heavily tainted by being part of the Assad regime], a load of very well-armed Kurds which have no real interest of being in this 'Syria' thing [which Turkey also hates like poison], a few 'technocratic' types who'd like to simply 'get shit running again' and a plethora of organised crime groups who will fight to either coopt, defang or destroy anyone who resists their control of whatever they fucking want. What else? Oh, remains of ISIS still wandering the desert [literally] and a load of prison camps filled with those cargos of poison which might end up being 'opened'.
The only 'good' thing in this case is that due to lack of Western resources, bandwidth and in Trump's case, actually giving a shit about the situation that a neocon/lib 'installing of democracy' is very unlikely to happen. Which sounds cuntish, but let's remember this shit does not work. Perhaps the most realistic 'best case' is that within days, we see a troika of major faction leaders form, install a somewhat 'rough and ready' power structure and then successfully rope in the majority of the minor 'acceptable' factions in a kind of modern feudal system. KarmaPolice (talk) 15:54, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Al-Julani has made a remarkable rhetorical transformation these last few years. Let's see how sincere it was.-Flandres (talk) 16:42, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
It wouldn't surprise me if the Kurds went for a separate Kurdish state. That was the de facto position before the fall of Assad anyway. On the other hand, Erdoğan would have a fit. — Unsigned, by: Bob M / talk / contribs
There's rumours that Assad is either a) dead or b) in the UAE. It seems only two 'trackable' planes left govt-controlled areas yesterday - an civilian Airbus going to Sharjah and a military Il-76 which seemed to be heading towards the Russian naval base on the coast, but then veered eastwards, began to lose height and then vanished from the long-range radar. It could have been shot down [the Syrian military had this capability so rebels could have got their mitts on it] but it's also possible they turned the transponders off and were going to make a run over northern Iraq into Iran.
At last report, Assad has taken "asylum" in Russia. This makes sense. If nothing else, it would look bad--even for Putin-- to abandon the man they have supported for years to the vagaries of revolutionary "justice", which could mean anything from exile (already done?) to a firing squad. Kencolt (talk) 19:28, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Totally irrelevant, I know. But I have a bit of a morbid curiosity to topic of the 'end of dictators'. KarmaPolice (talk) 17:55, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Why does Syria matter? I'll be honest and say all I know of the country I learned in the last hour skimming RationalWiki and other pages about the place... doesn't seem to be any "good guys" at all in civil war that was occurring... so why the need for any foreign intervention? Innocents are dying, yes; and more would likely, and have died, with interventions. Is Syria so important for economics or the nonsense "balance of power" chess game that politicians play? The country is in ruins from the prolonged fighting anyways apparently. If a nation bordering Syria wants to get involved for their own security, I could understand that reasoning... though it could be argued how positive doing so would be compared to going after domestic organizations that are involved and profiting off the situation. Countries like Canada and the US, truly why does Syria matter? Better to let the country have some time to fix itself, one way or another. Impiricism (talk) 18:34, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Realpolitik time.
1/ Syria has a butt-load of advanced military kit we wouldn't like to see fall into the wrong hands.
2/ It's believed Syria has chemical/biological weapons we really wouldn't like to see go walkies.
3/ We don't want another massive Syrian refugee wave hitting Europe.
4/ We don't want a prolonged power vacuum because it may lead to the restoring of 'peak ISIS' [remember when they got powerful enough they basically 'marched on Baghdad', the Iraqi Govt shat itself, armed anyone who would resist and thank fuck, actually did?]
5/ The fall of Assad cuts of a main supply-line to Hezbollah and we'd prefer it not to be restored.
6/ If we can get a mildly anti Iranian/Russian regime in Damascus this means those Russian bases are gone and weakens their power/status in-region.
7/ If we can get a mildly anti Israeli regime in Damascus this means outright war is unlikely [the other option being 'rabidly anti-Israel'.
8/ It's probably best that Syria does not become an obvious puppet/vassal of Turkey.
KarmaPolice (talk) 19:08, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
There are other points - some associated with what you have said. On (2) the reason that it is believed that the regime had chemical weapons is because it used them various times against it's own people. On (3) it is entirely possible that we will see a wave of Syrian leaving Europe and returning to Syria. That's that's going to depend on how the other points play out but it would only be a good thing it it happened.
It's also important because it demonstrates the current weakness of Syria's erstwhile supporters- Hezbollah, Iran and Russia.
I would argue that the secular groups fighting to get rid of Assad and the Kurds who fought against both ISIS and Assad (before Trump left them in the lurch) are the closest thing to "good guys" in the conflict.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 19:29, 8 December 2024 (UTC)
Do a foreign intervention to get rid of "weapons of mass destruction"... that sounds familiar; how did a backwater third-world country get such advanced weaponry in the first place again? For the other reasons listed, they are literally the bullshit "balance of powers" chess game mentioned. I know that a nation is likely putting itself at a disadvantage not playing such games when other unscrupulous entities will play... it does not make it any better though. The reasons are bullshit but I know that they're valid too... I just wish the world and people were different where those reasons would not exist. Impiricism (talk) 01:06, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Adding to the significance, the two bases that Russia has in Syria, one air and one naval, are Russia's only two military bases that are not located in a former Soviet state. The likelihood that Russia could retain either of those bases at this point is slim given that the leader of the strongest rebel group (HTS) has spoken against future foreign intervention in Syria. The loss of those bases would seem to significantly weaken Russia's global reach, particularly in Africa. Turkey would also benefit from the return of most of the 4-million Syrian refugees to Syria, and this is probably why Turkey was backing HTS despite, along with the US and Russia, labeling HTS as a terrorist group, and despite recently trying to negotiate their return with Assad. Israel also participated to some extent in Assad's downfall with regular bombings of the Syrian militia in Syria, probably adding to the existing demoralization. Why did the Syrian military collapse so quickly? Syrian military officers were reportedly being paid as little as the equivalent of $10/month! Russia has to be rethinking who they can cooperate with in future: it doesn't look like Israel or Turkey are possibilities in the near future. Three (Hamas, Hezbollah, Syrian Army) of four (Houthis in Yemen) of Iran's proxy armies are now greatly weakened or eliminated. It must be causing rethinking the wisdom of these decisions. There were more moderate politicians in Iran who questioned their wisdom in the past. The cost of supplying Hezbollah was very high for Iran over the years, particularly for a country under sanctions. Iranians have often complained about the cost of living, which is directly related to the sanctions and the adventurism. Bongolian (talk) 03:21, 9 December 2024 (UTC)
Turkey's designs for Syria are just as self-interested as Iran's are/were. Turkey massacres Kurdish populations in Syria, Turkey has used Syrian mercenaries to conduct war crimes in Artsakh, and has engaged in forced deportations of Syrian refugees. If I was a Syrian Kurd, I would be very nervous right now. And while it is indisputably a good thing that Assad is gone, the group that has replaced him are literally just "not Al-Qaeda." We should be careful not to engage in whitewashing here. Carthage (talk) 08:16, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Israel is stealing more land in Syria. They just can't help themselves, can they? Carthage (talk) 08:08, 9 December 2024 (UTC)

Just a note on the notion that pre civil war Syria was ”a backwater third-world country”. Syria was a fairly well educated society (as seen by a lot of the resourceful refugees who tended to have better chances of getting to Europe and often quickly found work).
Damascus used to be seen as one of the cultural and educational centres in the Arab world and the Ba’ath Party tended to look for inspiration to the USSR and its penchant for solid technical/engineering education, as it would both allow the training of industrial engineers more broadly and specifically those needed for a domestic arms industry.
You don’t have to be some industrial superpower to produce the kind of chemical weapons Syria was pursuing. As long as you have even a moderately sophisticated chemical industry and decide to dedicate state resources to it, getting chemical weapons is a lot easier than going nuclear.
As Syria had worked on its chemical weapons programme for literally decades (since daddy Assad took over in the 1970s) and had decided to arm itself to the teeth for yet another possible rematch with Israel (realising what that would mean in terms of crossing the US), it’s not a huge mystery that a state with a fairly well educated pre war population of more than 20 million (or at least enough of its workforce having the necessary qualifications), along with its own petrochemical industry and able to rely on oil exports for hard currency could and would field such weapons.
Indeed, you could argue that the large Syrian stockpile of chemical weapons was a move analogous to the massive stockpile of conventional weapons and extensive fortification programme in communist Albania when that country ended up being run by a dictator (Enver Hoxha) who had alienated the major surrounding powers. While Syria was never as isolated as Albania or had pissed off all of the major powers as much, it did end up not being that closely allied to any of them either and with a dictator (the elder Assad) who was keen on not being too reliant on foreign support, either. ScepticWombat (talk) 17:37, 10 December 2024 (UTC)
I also would like to caution against the kind of chauvinist thinking that leads to the sentence "how can this backwater third world nation construct chemical weapons," as if the Global South and the people in it are inferior in capability to the Global North. It's that kind of thinking that led to the US getting its ass kicked in Afghanistan and Vietnam. Carthage (talk) 19:01, 11 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's exactly that, more like thinking that Syria has a level of industrial, scientific and technical development of say, Mali. I remember seeing similar in the runup to the Ukraine War, where a lot of Western [often American] commentators etc 'failed' to notice that while clearly outgunned and outnumbered, no Ukraine did have her own metal/bodies/brains and a decent indigenous military production capacity to support it in an 'Industrial Era' war. And as Wombat points out, no Syria was not Mali - perhaps pre-War only a little behind Ukraine. What's more, making chemical weapons isn't that hard; the science and engineering isn't 'secret' and almost all the tech needed is dual-use [so countries can import it without too many eyebrows]. The most difficult bit is turning the poisons into viable delivery systems and kitting out your own people with decent anti-chem kit, which is the sort of shit Western spies are always watching out for [we knew Russia wasn't going to use chem/bio in combat in Ukraine because to this date they've not broken out the NBC respirators etc for their troops... yet] but in this case 95% of the work was done in advance because Soviet military doctrine stressed NBC fighting and so Syria [like Iraq] had the kit etc already lying about. Case in point; ISIS is believed to have manufactured/used mustard gas by '15 and after they conquered Mosul in '17 they started to ramp up production of chorine and if I remember right, was attempting to develop missile delivery systems. Plus, Hoxha's Albania did have chemical weapons; after the regime's fall thousands of drums of mustard gas and means to use it in battle were discovered.
Anyway, Assad's 'fall' was somewhat on the cards for some time. Syria's economic development has been fairly poor since the 90s and got worse after Saddam fell because it meant Assad couldn't make money off sanctions-busting [a common tactic was to import cut-rate Iraqi oil and use it domestically, so they could then export more Syrian oil at market rates]. By 2015 the Syrian 'economic base' wasn't big enough to support a military strong enough to defeat the rebels, and Russian/Iranian support was pivotal because it gave extra capabilities beyond what they could actually 'afford'. But now Russia and Iran are hurting, and don't have the means to be so generous [Russia appears to have almost exhausted their Soviet-era weapons piles which might explain why we're seeing sixty year old tanks and seventy year old APCs with infantry using century-plus old rifles. if we go back any further we're going to be seeing cavalry and prop fighter planes] while the Syrian economic capacity is a lot smaller due to over a decade of war. This was translated in Syria by actions such as removal of fuel/food subsidies to the population and a partial demobilisation. What kind of regime cuts shit which buys them public support and actual forces during a civil war [admittedly one which had gotten rather stale and cold]? One which no longer has the economic base to support it. The economic stats don't lie: electricity production [from 2010] -80%, gas -60%, oil -90%, wheat -70%, olive oil -75%, cattle -30%, sheep/goats -40%, chicken -65%, water facilities -65%, cotton -85%, soybeans -99%, sunflowers -100%, industrial output -30%. To some extent Syria by 2024 had become 'a backwater third-world country'. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:09, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
Even Mali is a "backwater" only by valuation. If we consider the Global North to be the global core, and the Global South to be the periphery, then yes, Mali and Syria are "third-world backwaters." I am not disputing that global inequities in development exist; I'm questioning the valuation that leads to labels like "third-world backwaters" being thrown around uncritically. Wombat did a good job of refuting the notion that Syria's status as a member of the global south must have meant it was always a failed state, or just about, but it's still worth questioning the valuation that leads to lines of logic like "how can this third-world shithole possess such marvels of chemical engineering. It had to have been provided by somebody else." Carthage (talk) 10:00, 13 December 2024 (UTC)
i think part of the reason brics is forming is because of this patronizing rhetoric about so-called "third world" countries. sure, the "global south" (itself not a term without its controversies) isn't a monolith, but they aren't uncivilized savages or anything like that. (for example, see brazil, arguably a major player in scientific research that gave the world an aviation pioneerWikipedia.) i mean, look at how many students pursuing advanced degrees in the first world/global north are international students. assad himself is an ophthalmologist by profession who was educated in england as well as in his native syria. The G (talk) 20:16, 14 December 2024 (UTC)
Well, most folks are ignorant. They don't even understand the accurate position of their own country (or what sustains it/they arrived at it), let alone other lands. If they think of other lands, the 'internal image' is either obsolete/biased/incorrect. Reporting bias is an issue; I mean there has precious 'positive' to report from 'the Muslim world' for example for decades - Afghanistan, Yemen, Palestine, Iraq? The first three are clearly 'basketcases' and the forth not much better. Even the 'rich Gulf states' stereotype has some basis in fact - that folks understand that they pay Western professionals etc very well mainly that their own lands are relatively incapable of producing their own (though in this case, it's by choice).
I have little belief BRICS will go far - it's at best a 'negative alliance' of NotPoor nations which are pissed at the US/Euro stranglehold on international orgs etc. China has nil interest in making a bloc which doesn't have them in charge, most nations aren't interested in exchanging one boss for another and how the fuck can it work when China and India are firm rivals? Nah, it's just a talking shop. KarmaPolice (talk) 14:19, 15 December 2024 (UTC)
as an american who holds brazilian citizenship, i don't see brics replacing the dollar anytime soon, either. in fact, speaking as a casual observer with no strong opinions, i think brics is a protest of what they view as western chauvinism (a view not entirely without its merits) at least, and an economic alliance or partnership (albeit a loose one) at most. The G (talk) 05:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Masaru Emoto[edit]

Is he still relevant? I notice from his page he's long dead, but I suspect his weird ideas aren't. Anyway I ask because I was cleaning up and found that I own a copy of 「水は答えを知っている」(water knows the answers) (I probably picked it up in a collection of second hand books, but some poor schmuck paid JPY1600 for this new!) and he's off on a weird adventure within the first page. I was wondering if it's worth taking notes to update his page.

On a flip through, the chapters are typical Japanese new age nonsense (water is the entrance to another dimension!), but the photographic plates, while a little dated-looking, like the dude could have used some free DOF stacking tools if he'd been working just a few years later, are interesting on their own. Namako (talk) 16:29, 18 December 2024 (UTC)

Despite being weirdly kooky, he achieved some level of fame in his life earning the lately dubious distinction of being on the New York Times best seller list for one of his books, The Hidden Messages in Water. Bongolian (talk) 06:36, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I think that might be this book? I've noticed there is some English text on the front, embossed (almost invisibly in my light) into the beautiful cover. It's just a translation from the Japanese, but the subtitle is "the hidden messages in water crystals". Wikipedia doesn't help on this one, but this book is from 2001, so it doesn't mention the bestseller or any translations anywhere. The only other option from his...interesting...bibliography at the end is 「水からの伝言」(1999), which is definitely a title which could not have any other meanings.
His, uh, school (company?) seems to be going strong. The store is especially exciting. 5G protection doohickeys, including what look like those radioactive credit card things, weird machines of dubious purpose, luck enhancing super water, it's got it all!
Now I'm in the rabbit hole I guess I'll take some notes and update the page, though probably after Christmas. Namako (talk) 12:23, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Holidays with a Trumper Family[edit]

I put this on the talk page, but I don't think I'm writing about one person. I understand you came here for advice, and that's not exactly the way to talk to the people here. This site's 'advice' is more 'Declarative statements' to get ripped apart. I disagree with any advice to cut ties with your family, even it is probably impossible to share certain beliefs. It's okay to listen, and try to understand, and totally disagree. It is not important to disagree so vehemently as to ruin a holiday. I would encourage you try to find what is comfortable for you, whether it's arguing, steaming silently, or walking away this year and make a decision for next year. Nobody can tell you how your family will react if you say you disagree with them politically. Maybe politics will barely be brought up. Give them another chance this year, just don't let them use you as a punching bag. Torrent (talk) 05:51, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Squirrels Eating Mice[edit]

Apparently it's happening in the one park in California. Research is ongoing on the effects and why. A Youtube video linked in the comments is of a guy detailing instances of predation by animals that typically are herbivorous, with the basic reasoning of resource scarcity and "eat or starve". I found it interesting, but also disturbing; I won't be able to look at squirrels quite the same way again. Impiricism (talk) 02:17, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Especially in mammals, general herbivores still eat animals. Elephants eat birds nests. Rodents love bones. It's not new, but it is exciting, and you should never trust a human acclimated squirrel. I have lived at an apartment complex where squirrels were fed, and those little fuckers get pushy. Torrent (talk) 06:07, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Google Search stats for RationalWiki, December explosion of visits[edit]

Previously: RationalWiki:Saloon bar/Archive464#Google Search stats for RationalWiki as of early October

Big news in terms of traffic from Google Search. We're above 460K visits the last 28 days now, and it's mostly due to a spike lasting a few days, taking us far above the nowadays-usual level hovering around 180K visits. Back in October, there was a smaller spike that temporarily then-doubled our visits, as lots of people searched for "silicon tree" and related terms. Now it's instead our generally most-visited article, Project Blue Beam, which has received a big blast of visits beyond the usual.

Maybe something to do with the topic went viral on some social media? That's my guess. In any case, lots of people suddenly became interested, bringing 135K visits in one day at the peak day to our article, while the norm is 5-6K visits per day to that article.

Other recent "growing content" in the search stats include: Anna de Buisseret, Project Blue Book, Ray Peat, and Köfels impact event. But all else is dwarfed by Project Blue Beam, including our main page.

Keep in mind, it's always possible that something will become all the rage all of a sudden, even if shortly, sending hundreds of thousands of people searching for this or that conspiracy or other missional topic and looking at RW links. Conspiracy stuff and pages on cranks is at the center of what people search for bringing them to RW. Especially more on newer conspiracy stuff may be key to keeping RW interesting to the broader public ahead -- I think we fell behind on new such during the COVID years, missing out that way. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 06:09, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Any chance of getting something like a 'top 20' or something like we did last time? Plus, 180k p/m is a reasonable increase; I remember the spell over the summer we were like scraping 50k... KarmaPolice (talk) 10:08, 19 December 2024 (UTC)


Yes, basically, according to a Newsweek [8], Alex Jones and Roseanne BarrWikipedia amplified the Project Blue Beam conspiracy in relation to the mysterious "drone" rumor mill that is going on in the Northeast US right now.
(Once that event settles down, that too probably would be a great article. Whatever the initial root cause, judging from the Reddits, it seems like every conspiracy nut is now busy posting ordinary flying machines at night and turning it into ALIENS!!! or something.) BobJohnson (talk) 15:03, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
I wonder if that's part of the reason for all the frequent trolling in the last few weeks. Or is this a common occurence? -- LunaAHHHHH 16:46, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Trolling often comes in waves, and when there's a wave of it, often it's just been one person who keeps coming back evading blocks. But it could explain extra activity after Dec 10. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2024 (UTC)
Well. That top 20 certainly seems to support the "Something went viral" analysis. Namely, project blue beam. ikanreed 🐐Bleat at me 14:46, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Top 20[edit]

As @KarmaPolice requested, a fresh top 20 list. I'll do like last time, so here's top 20 search terms first.

  1. project blue beam
  2. rationalwiki
  3. what is project blue beam
  4. silicon tree
  5. rational wiki
  6. blue beam project
  7. red room
  8. giant silicon tree
  9. darryl anka
  10. darryl anka wikipedia
  11. silicon trees wikipedia
  12. project blue bean
  13. bashar - wikipedia
  14. gregg braden wikipedia
  15. giant silicone tree
  16. dave farina
  17. dr eric berg wikipedia
  18. project blue beam wiki
  19. last thursdayism
  20. professor dave

For the pages people end up at:

  1. Project Blue Beam
  2. Main Page (Main Page in URL)
  3. Ancient giant silicon-based tree hypothesis
  4. Darryl Anka
  5. Professor Dave
  6. Main Page (no page in URL)
  7. Red room
  8. Eric Berg
  9. Ray Peat
  10. Biblical scientific errors
  11. Last Thursdayism
  12. National Sunday law
  13. List of actions prohibited by the Bible
  14. Examples of God personally killing people
  15. Gregg Braden
  16. Emil O. W. Kirkegaard
  17. Edward Dutton
  18. Wedge of Aiud
  19. Shoe0nHead
  20. Valentina Gomez

--ApooftGnegiol (talk) 19:24, 19 December 2024 (UTC)

Thanks.
1/ Could somebody explain to me the differences between 2 and 6 in layperson?
2/ Is there any more details on this? I mean, do we know as a % of total Google hits the top 20 are?
3/ Is this stats from all versions of Google, not just .com? [WP dashboard for example divides .co.uk, .ca etc].
4/ Is there any way we can learn how much of total hits Google directed-hits represent?
5/ Using this info, perhaps it's an idea to add a new bit under 'random featured article' - perhaps announcing our three most recent brainstar articles?
KarmaPolice (talk) 18:57, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
1/ Probably the difference between https://rationalwiki.org and https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Main_Page Nowhere Man (talk) 19:41, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Exactly, yes. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
2/ There's 'clicks' and 'impressions' (i.e. merely appearing in results) for each item. Over 3 months, it looks like this. (The top 20 lists above also take 3 months into account.) For Project Blue Beam, it's at 377,824 and 1,735,385 right now (while the top search term for it is at 304,098 and 1,206,714). For comparison the main rationalwiki.org URL has 28,190 and 58,271. Then (22,406, 173,593), and (21,129, 233,151), and (7,978, 69,833) for the pages after, for the top 5.
3/ It's global stats, but there's also a tab for stats on countries, again showing 'clicks' and 'impressions' for each.
4/ We'd need accurate stats for hits for starters, to compare. We don't currently have proper stats on RW itself.
5/ Maybe. Further discussion welcome, we can see what people are interested in maintaining.
Also, RW Techs as well as other established RW members who're interested, apart from asking me, you could get access to have a look yourself. It would require your Google account email only, and you'd get a view without the fuller permissions to turn knobs. You can email me if interested. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 02:30, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
With 5/, I was thinking that if we're getting a lot of hits to our mainpage, perhaps it would be an idea to use said mainpage to highlight 'new stuff'. For example, having after the listing of X amount of mainspace articles we have, something along the lines of '... and our latest brainstar article is: X'. Because otherwise, with the exception of 'random featured article' [which is from a small enough pool most of us will know them all off by heart] the page looks static and has looked this way for apparently, all time. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I got the gist. I was thinking you should discuss it with more editors, particularly people who do brainstar reviewing, to have a few on board with the idea and at least rough consensus it's fine to change. I think it's fine, but there should be more than one person to maintain such updates if it's done. --ApooftGnegiol (talk) 04:15, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this helps, but I actually found this place while seeking more skeptical coverage of the New Jersey drone fiasco, and eventually landed on pages like Project Blue Beam. ☣🍆☣ (talk) 12:19, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Request for help[edit]

RE: Metric system

Need help for someone to write the US and Canada paras of this article. There's also a hole which a 'Metrication in the United States' page would sit. I'm trying to push this article into Brainstar quality. KarmaPolice (talk) 01:02, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

Are you fishing for engagement from us freeloaders? ;)
I probably can write a small bit for Canada... want it under the customary units section or? Did some quick searches, and I thought this 2017 Angus Reid report on Canadian usage was spot on. Impiricism (talk) 15:00, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
More finding a couple of folks who know the topic in the representative countries better than I. The best I would be able to do would just paraphrase what the relevant WP pages said. I've done the heavy lifting in the other sections which I felt needed to be done already, though it wouldn't hurt in someone doing a bit of 'prettification' on it either. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I'd be pretty much paraphrasing articles from other websites myself. Most Canadians who lived during the transition from Imperial to Metric are in retirement or dead by now. Impiricism (talk) 04:31, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Yet Canada is - like the UK - a country which appears to be at a 'not quite there yet' stage. Plus, was Canada Imperial or 'US customary'? What about US imports in pounds etc? Is there any particular 'holdouts'? This is one of those things which either a) a foreigner could spend a ton of time researching or b) a local could whip up from the stuff already in their head. KarmaPolice (talk) 05:11, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

some help arguing please[edit]

i wanted to find soemthing to help me disprove this guy’s claim that gay men are more likely to be sexual predators/pedophiles than cis white males and i can’t find anything solid to refute that. they say, and ‘quote’

21% of all sexual predators are gay.
5.5% of the American population are gay.
per capita, more gay people are to be sexual predators/rapists.

How do i dismantle this? please? Alastor (talk) 19:35, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

pulls out napkin, pen and calculator.
Hmm... 5.5% of Americans are gay'? A '21 Gallup poll says 5.8% of Americans outed themselves as having at least some non-hetro orientation, and another 7.5% refused to answer. So it's possible that the non-straight % is up to 7-8% of the total population.
The '21% of all sexual predators are gay' I suspect comes from the work of Dr. Gene Abel, who in 1987 produced this figure from what appears to be a meta-study. Let's actually hear what he really said;
"…[M]ost men who molest little boys are not gay. Only 21 percent of the child molesters we studied who assault little boys were exclusively homosexual. Nearly 80 percent of the men who molested little boys were heterosexual or bisexual and most of these men were married and had children of their own."
Note that Abel didn't study [or at least not in this bit] the statistics of the sexual orientation of those who abused girls. The British NSPCC report from 2024 gives a better picture; 3.5% of men and 11.5% of women reported some form of sexual abuse as a minor. Now, British and American societies are 'similar enough' to allow me to say they're comparable.
So, out of a randomised sample group of 2000 adult Britons [50/50 sex mix] 150 report being abused as a child - 115 women and 35 men [I'm gonna leave trans folks out of this because they're such a small % of the adult population]. Therefore, if 21% of the males were abused by a gay man, this means 7-8 in our group of abused folks.
Therefore, 4.6 - 5.3% of the abusers of children are gay men. My stats are too sparse to properly draw conclusions [and I frankly don't care enough to dig them out] but it does hint that the level of child abuser is much more equalised in society orientation-wise than the old 'gays are paedos' panic from the Boys Beware era. KarmaPolice (talk) 20:12, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
This is clearly a case of [citation needed]. It's actually difficult to find data. To add, there's one study from 1992 [9] that suggests a slightly higher propensity (the numbers in this study were 5% of the population were "androphiles" and about 9% of pedophiles were homosexual). It's just one study though, and that difference isn't especially great to make the sort of sweeping conclusions a lot of yer fundamentalist / moral panic type sites make. (The most common error being to conflate male adult to male child pedophilia as homosexual... it is not; from what I gather, much of this lot actually see themselves as heterosexual in everything else!)
For those who like to make sweeping generalizations and oh noes PANIC ON THE GAYS!, keep in mind that female pedophiles, by stereotype, simply "doesn't exist" (and therefore I am actually having trouble finding studies with the answer to "what percentage of pedophiles are female", other than this link from Australia, which states that 93.9% of child abusers are men.) The data may be poor quality, but I nonetheless suspect that the per capita gap between homosexual pedophiles and heterosexual pedophiles is quite a bit lower than the per capita gap between male and female pedophiles. So... oh noes moral panic on all men, I guess? (I think this does actually happen to some extent...)
Incidentally, the same study suggested that about half of CSA came from either parents/caregivers or other known adults, with another significant chunk coming from known adolescents. Not quite the categories you can easily throw moral panics over, but people will try. BobJohnson (talk) 21:28, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
I've looked a little into the 'female paedophile' issue. From what I can tell, the vast majority of 'female paedophiles' [at least in places like the UK] were women who ended up in illegal relationships with a single child [nearly always someone in their mid/late teens] - while the wide majority of male paedophiles go on abusing different children over decades. That the woman maintains interest in the victim even after they're above the age of consent, while most male paedos don't. There's also the issue that I suspect it will go unreported for several reasons - I remember one survivor's tale where he said part of the reason he didn't report her was not just he felt 'nobody would believe me' but also the fact they were attractive, he believed he loved her and she used the 'well you enjoyed it' gaslighting when he did try to question it.
In another angle, it's quite possible that 'unwanted advances' are more likely to be reported as 'sexual predation' if it's done by the 'wrong' gender. That - for example - if a straight guy got a rather 'strong pass' from a girl he'd simply say no and leave it at that but if it had been a guy doing the very same he'd call it 'predatory behaviour'. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:10, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Additionally, the study claims that 21% of pedophiles are gay, rather than 21% of gays are pedophiles, there is a very big difference there! TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 15:12, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
If you're referring to the Abel study, it was 21% of male paedophiles who abused boys. I then used the NSPCC stats which said the ratio of abused girls/boys was roughly 3:1, meaning that if we assume that there wasn't that many gay male abusers of girls [which is a leap which I don't have any stats to back up, I get that] this would put the % of gay male abusers around 7%, which is much closer to the norms where gay men are found in the general population. KarmaPolice (talk) 00:48, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────there is an art to arguing with assholes. however, if your time is short, do what i do:

  1. ask for a source. usually, if it's an absurd claim, then assume it's made up and apply hitchens' razor.
  2. if you want to waste his time, don't be afraid to grill them and just ask (dumb) questions.
  3. if you really want to go through the effort of refuting it, just remember that refuting the claim requires an amount of energy that is an order of magnitude higher than what was used to produce it. point out that most rapists and sexual abusers are straight when they aren't molesting people. there's a (rather dangerous) misconception that rapists are sexually attracted to their victims. in fact, most of them attack their victims to overpower and dominate them.

The G (talk) 05:45, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't suppose this will help OP argue with whoever, now that I'm four days later apparently. But I'll note the article section Nick Fuentes § LGBT and homosexuality contains a creative argument about this, that unfortunately child molesters may target either boys or girls and boys may simply end up less guarded by their parents/guardians due to gender norms (or similar). Unstated there is something I think I've seen argued on another of our pages somewhere, not sure which one, that this may also be the case especially for pre-adolescents due to the very nature of puberty being the point where sex dimorphism takes more hold and so, even a heterosexual male child molester may be less deterred from abusing pre-adolescent boys. I would also say that because child molestation can perhaps be a way for abusive individuals to humiliate, abuse, or feel power over (etc.) a child, it should probably not be viewed purely through the lens of sexual or romantic attractions.

This is all assuming such a statistic exists and is well validated. That section on Fuentes's article seems to have a counterargument based on phallometry which I don't think is terribly valid itself. Something else: the statistic repeated by OP has an assumption that if a man molests a boy, he must be gay, but by the way what if there's a secret third option called bisexuality? Being bisexual happens to be several times more common than being gay. Chillpilled (talk) 04:27, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Request: Mātauranga Māori[edit]

Good morning/afternoon,

I would like to request than an article be made on Mātauranga Māori, the supposed traditional knowledge of New Zealand's indigenous people. The reason is because, as someone living here, there is a debate about putting it in the science curriculum. Although there is a paradigm shift towards the value of indigenous knowledge in mainstream science lately, the problem with Mātauranga Māori is that it is being taught as a supposed alternative to "western" science and promoted as if it is of equal value. Furthermore, just like right-wing American-style creationism, it alludes to "gods" and other forms of spirituality. I myself am a former young-Earth creationist which is why I am concerned, especially with a leaked curriculum draft (not final) from last year that had more emphasis on MM than actual empirical science. some examples are provided below:

I think it is quite clear how Mātauranga Māori is really a pseudoscience. Any thoughts?

Joseph D. Pelobello/Daniel William "Danny" Wilson 19:52, 20 December 2024 (UTC)

Most "traditional knowledge" of certain sorts would be considered protoscience actually.
I am actually having difficulty finding good sources on this topic that would help me determine exactly what people New Zealand government officials are trying to do, and is it really an issue, or just some a few folks way out in left field who are trying to put some noble savage woo in science curriculum drafts and getting swatted down, or something. Whyevolutionistrue.com is essentially Jerry Coyne's blog and Coyne fits neatly into the New Atheism tendency of becoming crankier over time. If there's better sources documenting some true crankery going on in the New Zealand government on this issue, sure it might be worth an article.
Personal opinion: I would keep any mentions of protoscience out of any traditional science curriculum, period. It nonetheless is sometimes worth examining traditional cultures and seeing that, hey, maybe they might know something that scientists don't know. There's an entire field called "ethnopharmacology" devoted to re-examining traditional medicine, for instance... because while there is a lot of bullshit in protoscience, every so often those folks hit on something that traditional Western science completely missed. (Tu YouyouWikipedia won a Nobel for actually doing this, for instance.) BobJohnson (talk) 22:13, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
Body ritual among the Nacirema? 'We do these seemingly random things because 'it appeases the spirits' while it turns out there is some scientific logic to this'. Similar could be said about drinking beer was better than water in Ye Olden Days - because amongst other things the beer would involve boiling water and then repeatedly filtering/draining it before consumption. These actions started fermentation and then to filter out all the dead yeast etc [which they understood] but also helped remove pathogens and water-borne contaminants [which they didn't really]. Some of the old Jewish dietary laws etc can also be seen as this; for example the prohibitions of eating predators or animals you've found dead of non-violent causes. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:47, 20 December 2024 (UTC)
As a minor point, since this comes up a lot, one common misconception about prohibitions on pork is they had something to do with trichinosis; given that the earliest knowledge of trichinosis comes from 1835, and at that point they still had absolutely no idea what caused it despite it being an infectious agent that even ancient people could have identified (seeing as they'd described other types of roundworms), that's hardly likely. It was more likely a cultural identifier, food taboos of that sort are well documented in the ancient world (e.g. Athenians ate a lot less meat out of a sense of superiority to Boeotians). Obviously some food taboos have to do with health issues, it's just that one which probably doesn't. The Blade of the Northern Lights (話して下さい) 01:26, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
I partly suspected it was over the fact that pigs seem to eat anything and everything, and thus might consume 'bad things' [like dead stuff]. KarmaPolice (talk) 01:33, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── This topic has been discussed here before. Here's some sources that lean into the "Mauri Matauranga has scientific aspects to it" angle: [10] [11]

Specifically, to quote the second source listed: "Hitherto mostly ignored or disregarded by the science community because it seemed to be myth and legend, fantastic and implausible, mātauranga Māori includes knowledge generated using techniques consistent with the scientific method, but explained according to a Māori world view. Acknowledging this extends the history of scientific endeavour back to when Māori arrived in Aotearoa and Te Wai Pounamu, many centuries ago."

Personally, I think that if one is gonna argue that mātauranga Māori is protoscience, you should also include the work of Renaissance or 17th century scientists as protoscience too. Newton believed in aether, and Kepler was motivated by numerological sentiment. People seem to be making no distinction between methodology and interpretation of results here. Carthage (talk) 03:04, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

It is not pseudoscience nor protoscience: it's just outdated knowledge. It is not their fault, knowledge becomes outdated very fast. Darwin is outdated, even Einstein is outdated in some aspects. That's the reason I removed the pseudoscience category from our James Ussher article. Newton and Kepler were using the best methodology available to them. Using the Mātauranga Māori methods today is akin to use praxeology to support conclusions in social sciences: It was once ok to use similar methods centuries ago (and it's indeed better than anything). But praxeolofy is not suited for modern research and it's interesting mostly for those who are into history of science and history of thought. Personally, I don't mind having a couple of lessons on their knowledge, but I think it's more suited to history lessons. GeeJayKWhere all evil dwells Where every lie is true 11:39, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
I do believe that's the point of including it in the Aotearoa curriculum. Plus, Mātauranga Māori is useful for Maori studies, as was pointed out in that old thread I linked above. Dawkins, Coyne, and co are deliberately conflating methodology with culture more broadly. Mātauranga Māori includes "techniques consistent with the scientific method," but that gets consistently glossed over by people like Dawkins and Coyne, who pretend that people advocating for acknowledging that the history of science in Aeotearoa predates colonization, and that Maori contributions to science are subject to colonial erasure, are really just woomeisters. Carthage (talk) 11:58, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
It would certainly be useful from a cultural perspective, and if it actually followed the scientific method as it is currently understood then it would simply be "science". In the same way that an "alternative medicine" technique would actually be "medicine" if it followed medial protocols. But the very fact that Mātauranga wants to put its own name on what it does suggests that it's not "science" as we understand it.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 12:50, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Isaac Newton actually did dabble in the "protoscience" of alchemy for several decades. None of this is taught in science classes because none of it is very applicable to modern chemistry. One can certainly find out about Newton's alchemy if one wants -- it's an interesting historical footnote and is well documented. It's just not chemistry.
As I mentioned, a scientist won a Nobel for looking at traditional Chinese herbal medicine and figuring out that artemisinin (found in sweet wormwood) actually worked well against certain types of malaria. However, to get there, the researchers used science methods to test and isolate the compound that worked best. What would be really bad in my view is, instead of that, someone came around and said "let's replace all this modern medicine with traditional Chinese medicine". These days, such would probably be accompanied by a whole bunch of conspiracy theory woo and/or religion.
And reading the wiki on this,Wikipedia that's one of the problems here -- Mātauranga Māori is perhaps inseparably entangled with native religion, and one has to elevate non-scientific religious concepts such as their form of vitalism in order to teach Mātauranga Māori. This is also really true of a lot of old school protoscience / primitive science / etc. type things. A lot of the motivation for Isaac Newton's pursuits were theological, but you aren't taught that either when you learn about the theory of gravity -- you don't need to. However, the further you get back into the pre-science days, the more likely it is that some god or spirit or similar concept is involved, as well as some intertwined concepts that would be seen as woo these days. Such may be difficult to untangle.
I have zero problems teaching Mātauranga Māori as history and culture, and as an untapped source of knowledge too. BobJohnson (talk) 18:32, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Since "Mātauranga Māori includes knowledge generated using techniques consistent with the scientific method," I don't see the problem with including it in the history of science in and of Aotearoa. "Techniques consistent with the scientific method" is literally just the scientific method. The worldview is not secular, sure, but neither was Newton's or Kepler's. You can just as much extract the results of Whakaotirangi's experimental agricultural work from the broader Maori worldview as you can extract the results of Newton's work in physics from 17th century British Christianity. Carthage (talk) 02:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I wouldn't doubt that creation science would also describe itself as using "techniques consistent with the scientific method". It's also quite socially relevant to certain Christian groups. But neither is a reason to put creation science on a par with actual science.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:52, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
And in what way is the experimental work of Whakaotirangi that adapted tropical Polynesian crops to the temperate climate of Aotearoa in anyway equivalent to "creation science"? And why shouldn't this work be acknowledged as relevant to the history of science in Aotearoa? The Royal Society of New Zealand certainly has recognized it as such. Carthage (talk) 07:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
As I said previously "It would certainly be useful from a cultural perspective". My objection is to teaching the whole thing as "science".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:41, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I think it depends what you mean by "science". If we want to classify something as being "currently scientific" then sure, we should restrict that to our current theories and models that maximize explanatory coherence between our models and observations. More so, we should restrict that set to only those that do that coherency work, and at the very least are claimed to be scientific by most of those who promote the model/theory. In that case, it is not actually all that evident that the Māori themselves would by and large insist on the Mātauranga Māori worrldview as being "science" on the whole -- and arguably never really had. But the history of science streches farther back than the term "science" being used as a name for a discipline. Of the history of science books I read, everything from ancient Indian mathematics, various metalurgy practices cross various cultures, the Chinese invention of paper, and the use of water wheels in medieval europe gets described as part of the "history of science" because at the very least these practices in the attempt to model and describe the natural world, and develop technology, were necessary precursors to what would eventually develop into "science" as we know it. The various way that polynesian people engaged in similar practices seems relevant and worth including as part of that history. That history has no pretext or presupposition on a secular worldview. In fact, it is not even evident that contemporarily, science essentially involves any ontological commitment to naturalism. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 08:09, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
By "science" I mean a process which follows the scientific method as it is currently understood.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 15:58, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

@GeeJayK That's a distinction without a difference. To be any kind of knowledge it would have to have been true, which we know now many aspects of Newtonian mechanics is not true. Neither is a large amount of Keplar. I would assert that for their time (at least for Newton anyway) it was science because their theories at the time outperformed the explanatory coherence of their competitors between theory and the set of all relevant observations. There is no comparison to praxeology really, because praxeology itself rejected empiricism. Whether or not it is wise to use "Mātauranga Māori" methods, depends on what specific methods we are referring to and for what exactly. I don't think there is any real assessment to speak to the quality of a methodology without reference to its actual content, and what can be empirically established about it. Otherwise, you are just making an assertion without evidence. What are we talking about exactly when we refer to such "methods"? Recall a "method" is about the actual act of experimenting, how we record observations, measure outcomes, or analyze our recorded data, etc. Whatever the cultural context that is occurring within is sort of irrelevant, or at the very least it should be irrelevant if our interest is only to judge it on its scientific merits. That requires us to know what the goals are, and whether or not the methods satisfy said goals. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 08:23, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

From what I remember, the science classes I had did not really dwell very much on "the history of invention", except maybe as footnotes on occasion. To use the Whakaotirangi example: Selective breeding was not really integrated scientifically (in the modern sense) until the late 1700s (the Google at least points to Robert BakewellWikipedia for this). Selective breeding (and related domestication efforts), however, was practiced for eons before that, by a wide variety of cultures (including non-Western ones; we can think natives in the Americas for the modern maize crop, for instance). This history is, of course, related to modern science, and I do remember things like museum displays with history-of-invention type displays. But science classes from what I remember tend to focus on current knowledge, methodology, and experiments within thus. I can see why; aside from the mysticism problems I mentioned earlier, a lot of ancient knowledge simply doesn't exists, or exists with a lot of gaps on the details. With the Whakaotirangi oral tradition, for instance, all I have Googled so far has little details on the hows, something unsurprising considering the age of the domestication and the nature of oral traditions. Much of Newtonian physics, in contrast, is still taught because, even though it's "not quite correct" for everything, it is "good enough" for a lot and thus still very useful in the modern age. (In contrast, something which has been completely supplanted, like aether theories, is also only mentioned as a footnote if at all.)
I think in some respects this is an argument about labeling and course focus more than the actual content. I certainly don't want to promote situations like this where a certain little extremist Wiki operator insisted that maize was invented in Germany due to reasons. So it's not saying "we shouldn't teach this", it's more a question of where to put the material I suppose. It seems more "history" then "science" to me, but it certainly shouldn't be ignored. BobJohnson (talk) 18:13, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I think we are mostly in agreement here, and you are not wrong when stating that science classes don’t typically go into deep dives around the history of science. Though I own a number of high school chemistry textbooks, and it is notable that a number of notable historical experiments do get covered (Rutherford’s gold foil experiment for example). Some philosophers of science have argued that neglecting the historical element is to the detriment of science classes, especially physics, though don’t know it there is any data to genuinely support that.
From what I understand from Rebecca Watson is that in the Maori case there isn’t an intention to introduce creation stories into the science class, but to provide a cultural acknowledgement to how science has been used to oppress the Maori people (which we have to admit is true), but the practice of science is not unique to european settlers, but a tool used by the Maori people themselves. I think this is something we may want to encourage, especially to combat any alienation that indigenous people might experience with respect to science. We don’t to encourage this idea of science as a purely European institution that has by and large been used as a means to facilitate the cultural erasure of indigenous people. This will only help fuel anti-science sentiments, and produce demographics that woo-meisters will be willing to exploit. We seen this already with RFK’s using the Tuskegee syphillis study as a means to exploit black Americans to becoming anti-vaxxers. If we don’t support an inclusive view of science this may be a detriment for our aims, though I don’t the aim of inclusivity has to be mutually exclusive to having a strict demarcation from pseudoscience (something I focused on in my master’s research, so I am definitely not hostile to that). - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Novel idea inspired off the Resistance video game[edit]

Sasha Angelovski raised her hunting rifle; the target was in her sight. Her aim was righteous and true. She slipped her finger into the trigger guard. All of Sasha’s thoughts were related to the target. With a squeeze of the finger Sasha fired the rifle; the deer in the scope of fire was dead. It was a perfect shot to the heart. Sasha loaded the second round and focused her scope on another deer. The second round got the next deer in the spine, killing it within seconds.

Her dad clapped his hands and said, “Sasha my boy, you did excellent. Your training is paying off”. Sasha got up off the ground, she adjusted her hat as she replied, “I wish that I could have got a second heart shot”. Sasha’s Dad stated, “Don’t be hard on yourself. That spinal shot was impressive”. Her dad grabbed a beer for himself and a root beer for Sasha from the cooler. The dad tossed Sasha the can and she catched it with ease.

“So dad, have you heard about the information blackout in Taiwan” asked Sasha. Her dad responded, “I have not been paying too much attention to the news recently so no, I have not”. Sasha stated, “I heard about it on my radio and at school. Nobody knows what is going on over there”. Her father pondered it for a moment and said, “I will have to check the news then”. He smiled as he finished with, “Let’s get some lunch. I could go for a chicken sandwich”.

Sasha followed her dad inside the house casually. Inside she saw her dad making himself a chicken sandwich with leftovers from yesterday’s dinner. She was in the mood for a peanut butter sandwich. Sasha grabbed the peanut butter and bread for her sandwich. Once she finished Sasha went into the living room and turned on the TV. The TV only shows static. Her dad said, “Adjust the antenna”. Sasha set her sandwich on the stand next to the couch so she could do her work. Moving the antenna Sasha got a signal; it was on a news channel.

“As you all are likely aware of, there has been a communications blackout following a meteorite impact in Taiwan. Attempts at reaching the Taiwanese government have failed. There are confirmed reports of detachments of People’s Liberation Army detachments landing in Taiwan. The Chinese government has not commented on the situation. The White House has been silent on the issue as well” said the news anchor. Sasha and her dad paid close attention to the television screen. Both of them were engrossed in the report.

The news anchor continued, “There has been speculation pertaining to the information blackout. Some include a national power outage, military coup or a terrorist attack on infrastructure. We want to stress that there is no confirmed cause behind the event”. Sasha wondered what was going on. She ignored her sandwich as the news anchor talked. Then the news went to the next story, which was just as intriguing as the first story.

Sasha heard the anchor say, “Our next story is reports of unidentified flying objects coming in from the People’s Republic of China, the Soviet Union, the Socialist Republic of Romania, the People’s Republic of Bulgaria, Yugoslavia, Greece, Israel, Cyprus and Egypt. Radar tracking stations picked up these objects for a few seconds before disappearing. No government officials have commented on this as of yet”. Sasha’s eyes were glued to the black and white television screen. Her focus was so intense that she did not hear her dad talk.

“Hey Sasha, did you hear me?” asked Sasha’s father. She turned her head and asked, “What?” Her dad said, “Since you finished your lunch, you got to study for your Algebra test tomorrow. You can listen to the radio while you work”. Sasha got up and nodded. She went upstairs to her room to study. That Algebra test would be a challenge so Sasha wanted to be prepared.

In her room Sasha turned on the radio to a rock station. However, no music played; instead there was a news report. The radio host said, voice trembling, “Ladies and gentlemen, we are getting reports out of the People’s Republic of China that are disturbing in nature. These reports are confirmed from multiple sources- mainland China is under attack from Taiwan or more accurately, an unknown enemy coming in from Taiwan. In addition, several Chinese cities are now devoid of people. We don’t know why but it is believed that the populations are dead”. Sasha was interested in the news; she was distracted from studying.

The radio host continued, “This just in, the United States government has placed the military on high alert. There is no official statement from the White House as of yet; however an official statement will be released later this afternoon. In possibly related news, more sightings of unidentified flying objects have come in from South Africa, Argentina, Chile, Peru, Columbia and Mexico. Information is sporadic at this time and no explanation as of yet. We will go to commercials now”.

I am experimenting with story ideas right now. I probably sound annoying by now. I need feedback. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:21, 21 December 2024 (UTC)

A few issues with past- and present-tense. Dialogue between father and daughter still sounds unnatural. Some typos and grammar issues here and there. I’m also not a fan of having the characters just sit around and listen to the news. It’s more interesting if the events actually impact their lives, and then they start getting the context for what’s going on. Overall an improvement from the last bit you posted, though. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 18:29, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
@DuceMoosolini How could I improve the dialog? I am open to suggestions. --Trans Fem Agenda 19:59, 21 December 2024 (UTC)
Here's a few tips:
  • People rarely just come out and say what they actually think, and characters shouldn't either. This one wasn't a major problem in the above segment, but I've seen it from you before. No character should ever say something like "I am angry with you!" It's more effective to show the emotion through their actions. Instead of "I'm angry with you!" you should do something like having your character shout "What the hell is wrong with you?" and then slam the table. Or maybe you could have a character be bitterly sarcastic, or have them just not engage in conversation at all.
  • People rarely use more words than they have to in normal conversation. There are a few examples in the above segment you posted. Something like "I wish that I could have got a second heart shot" should be more like "I wish I got off that second heart shot." Or this bit: "“I have not been paying too much attention to the news recently so no, I have not." You don't even need dialogue for this one. Just have him shrug dismissively; it says everything you need to know about him.
  • There should be conflict, and it should be expressed through subtext. There's clearly an underlying issue happening: her father misgendered her. This conversation between them should be much less normal as a result. Have long silences and terse answers from Sasha. Show us that something serious is bothering her. Maybe have her father try to have a regular light-hearted conversation at first, and then have him sigh and go into an "if you're going to be like this"-type attitude. In dialogue, what is not said is frequently more interesting than what is said. Dialogue should also always feature conflict (even if trivial); that's usually the reason it's there.
  • Introduce exposition more naturally. "So dad, have you heard about the information blackout in Taiwan" gets plunked into the conversation with no warning or prompting. If you were having a face-to-face conversation with someone, and they just pivoted out of the blue to a seemingly-random current-events topic, you'd think they were a bit weird and not in a good way. I think in this instance there's a way to make the awkwardness work for you. Maybe Sasha's father directly tries to confront her about why she's so sullen (maybe even trying to bring up her transness) and she pivots as a desperate attempt to deflect: "It's not that, dad. I guess I'm just preoccupied by all that crazy shit that's happening in Taiwan." (Although really, you should cut out the news bit and have the crazy shit arrive on their doorstep).
Anyways, I hope this helps. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 01:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Also, I just thought of this, @Rationalzombie94. If you want to read a good (and short) example of dialogue with effective subtext, here's Ernest Hemingway's "Hills Like White Elephants. I'll spill the beans on it now: it's about an older man trying to pressure his younger mistress to have an abortion. But the genius thing is that he never says the word "abortion," and he fervently denies that he's pressuring her to do anything. It's all communicated to you through subtext. Hemingway's story is about the conversation they're deliberately not having. If you borrow some of Hemingway's tricks and use them even half as effectively, you'll be writing damn good dialogue. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 01:51, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I had barely remembered that as Hemingway or 'Hills' but I did remember the story. Took a quick look, (PDF is safe as long as it reads jerrywbrowndotcomslashwp-contentslashuploadsslash2020slash02slashHills-Like-White-Elephants-Hemingway-Ernest dotpdf and nothing else but man, that's a BIG leap of trust to click that link) and I really remembered the line 'It's just to let the air in.' Raymond Carver also has some awesome dialogue in short stories. Here's a leap of thought. Several short stories within the universe. The epic comes after you find and understand the tone of the world. Allies, enemies, weirdos, cowards, and preppers. All dealing with the same. Not one has to survive a day, but each has to try to experience what is happening. Torrent (talk) 04:55, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Today sucked. Fall is always cold, but today sucked especially. Lars was tired, tired of all the mornings that were cold, tired of all the days that were too short and nights that promised nothing but tomorrow. It was supposed to be his day off, and he was supposed to enjoy it. Lars wanted out, but not out into the cold air, just out. Not into his bed, but not out of his bed, just out. Today sucked, and despite it being cold, Lars got out of bed.

Yesterday sucked, too. Not like today was going to suck, but yesterday really sucked. He didn't think to look up as he lurched over his bathroom sink. It was routine. Lars pushed his thumb into the tube, thinking 'who fucking cares?' and it all came out, a squishy paste flavored with mint. This was supposed to keep life easy, a day off and a mint scrub, self applied. That was fine.

Breakfast was the second best moment today for Lars. He Loathed that it was time to go out. turned his burner on, cracked a couple of eggs and loathed having to go grocery shopping today. But it was not time for loathing, it was time to keep everything in rhythm. Rice in the cooker, steam starts pouring, bacon in the pan, fat starts buckling, paper towel, paper towel, quick scramble on the eggs with butter. This time was close to perfect and the second best moment of today.

Lars put off his trip to the grocery store by an hour, thinking about how he almost perfected his breakfast. He would have it right tomorrow, he decided, then changed his mind and would have it more right tomorrow. Another hour passed and it had to be now, it couldn't be later, but now everyone was going to be shopping. Today sucked. Lars groaned, he didn't want out but he needed to, he didn't want to go, but he knew exactly how it would happen, so he left and went, a little angry at the world and a little cold. He probably should have worn his coat, the autumn sun lies about how warm it wants to be.

Through the aisles it went exactly as expected. Every item Lars was thinking about, it seemed somebody was standing in front of, contemplating. As if it were an actual decision. This made today suck especially for Lars, but it was to be expected. Weaving from item to item, Lars was not bad at putting up with impediment, he could circle back to the eggs or the butter, it would only take him a second to grab what he knew he wanted on those shelves. But then came the lines.

The lines weren't that bad, Lars could look back at how well he'd done navigating the store until he met the teller, who was undoubtedly having less fun than Lars. It wasn't hard to imagine how a little smile and thank you might brighten the checker's day, and that was the best part of Lars' day.

After that, there were screams. Then the pushing and grabbing and biting started. Nobody helped. Lars Stumbled backwards against the carts behind him, each giving way randomly in their uneven load and unsteady wheels until he was on the floor with a wall of overly contemplated would-be purchases behind him. The worst part about today, for Lars, was that they started at his feet.

Today sucked

Scene Torrent (talk) 06:25, 22 December 2024 (UTC) This is all helpful. --Trans Fem Agenda 11:27, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

This is from the first chapter-
Sasha Angelovski raised her hunting rifle; the target was in her sight. Her aim was righteous and true. She slipped her finger into the trigger guard. All of Sasha’s thoughts were related to the target. With a squeeze of the finger Sasha fired the rifle; the deer in the scope of fire was dead. It was a perfect shot to the heart. Sasha loaded the second round and focused her scope on another deer. The second round got the next deer in the spine, killing it within seconds.

Her dad, Ivan Angelovski, sighed, “Your second shot was not very good. What is going on son”? Sasha sighed, “I have been preoccupied with the news recently. There was a meteorite impact in Taiwan and suddenly there is no information coming from the island now”. Ivan replied in annoyance, “We do not need to worry about it. The impact did not take place in our country”. Sasha went to talk but she was interrupted, “Enough, let's grab the deer and take them to the processing plant. Focus on hunting for food so we can eat this winter”.

Ivan got into his truck and drove up to the deer carcasses. He got out and went to help Sasha load the deer into the truck bed. Both deer were extremely heavy but the task got done. Sasha and Ivan got in the truck so they could head to the processing plant. Turning on the radio Sasha heard a news broadcast. This broadcast was incredibly disturbing. The news shook Sasha down to her soul.

The radio host said, “We are interrupting normal programming for an emergency news bulletin. Scientists with the National Aeronautics and Space Administration in conjunction with North American Aerospace Defense Command have discovered a meteor on a collision course with Earth. Calculations indicate that the meteor will impact Calgary in the Province of Alberta by tomorrow at 4 PM Central Time. Emergency Management officials are urging civilians to evacuate immediately. Do not wait. The impact will almost certainly destroy the city”. Ivan told Sasha, “It looks like we will not be heading to the processing plant. We will go home, call your Aunt Pauline and we will go into her bomb shelter”.

Sasha was absolutely terrified by the news, she was not ready to die. She continued to listen to the news. The radio host continued, “If you are outside the impact area, seek shelter underground immediately. Gather enough essential supplies to last at least fourteen days. Do not leave your shelter until rescue workers reach you. The city of Calgary and everything within a one hundred miles radius are under martial law. Police have been authorized to use deadly force against looters and rioters. Please follow the law”. Ivan said, “Don’t worry, we will be safe”.

Ivan pulled the truck into the driveway on his property. He and Sasha went inside the house. Ivan told Sasha, “I need you to collect food from the pantry while I call my sister”. She responded, “Alright dad, I got it”. She went down into the basement to get food from the pantry. Sasha grabbed a big box and loaded canned goods into it. Panic gripped Sasha like a fist; it felt like she was being squeezed.

In her panic Sasha accidentally dropped a jar of canned brussel sprouts. The mason jar shattered and its contents were all over the floor. Ivan shouted from upstairs, “What was that”?! Sasha replied, “I dropped a jar of brussel sprouts”! Ivan came down into the basement where he saw the mess. He was not happy as he stated, “Be more careful. We will have to ration our food”. Sasha started to cry but her dad said, “No tears. Finish getting the food and I will fill up some water jugs”.

Once the first box was filled Sasha began to put food in another box. Sasha emptied much of the pantry into two big boxes. She stacked both boxes and carried them upstairs. Ivan met Sasha at the stair landing; the look on his face showed relief. He told Sasha, “My sister said that we could stay in her bomb shelter. It will be a three hour drive but we will be safe. Now put the boxes in the truck. Once you are done, I advise that you go to the bathroom as we will not be stopping”. Sasha said, “Alright dad”.

Outside the house Sasha noticed a guy standing in the driveway. She recognized him as her neighbor George Johnson. He was holding a meat cleaver; he had a look of desperation on his aged face. Sasha had a very bad feeling about this. George slowly approached with hostile intent. Her instinct told her to go back inside but fear froze Sasha in place. She could not speak. Sasha thought that she would die. George sprinted towards Sasha.

Sasha heard a loud boom coming from the front porch. Her dad fired a warning shot from his shotgun. Ivan shouted, “Get the fuck out of here or I will paint the grass pink with your brains”! George retorted, “I need your truck!" Ivan shouted back, “You don’t threaten my son ever! Now get out now”! Ivan fired a second warning shot; George ran away. Sasha was unable to move due to the fear she felt. Ivan asked Sasha, “Are you okay”?

Ivan set down the shotgun and grabbed the boxes from Sasha. He placed them in the truck next to the deer that were shot earlier. Ivan walked up to Sasha and hugged her. He asked her, “Are you okay? He didn’t hurt, did he”? Sasha responded finally, her voice trembling, “I am just shaken up a little”. Ivan responded, “As long as you are okay, that is all that matters. Just relax. I will get the water jugs and we can get out of here”.

Coming out of the house, Ivan carried some jugs of water to the truck. Sasha helped her dad put the jugs in the truck bed. Ivan and Sasha got in the truck. Ivan backed the truck up and pulled out into the street. Putting the truck into drive, Ivan drove down the street at a fast but steady pace. Being ten miles out from Calgary, they were in the danger zone. Sasha looked up at the sky and she could see the meteor. Tomorrow it will impact the Earth. A lot of people would die; many more would be homeless. Disaster was coming. Little did anyone know, the meteor would not be the true disaster. It would be something far worse.

My second attempt. I am trying to build anticipation of the upcoming alien invasion. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:31, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

Okay, something is not working. --Trans Fem Agenda 18:33, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

I think right now,what you are writing is either playwriting or screenwriting. Which is some of may favorite. Tennessee Williams is amazing at bare bones setting and awesome dialogue. i don't know why things aren't working, but you can't just rip a style. The storytelling of 'Today sucks especially' was a subversion of the idea that every day sucks. It's not some cheat code. i don't edit anything but myself. but rather than ripping me off, maybe build a universe that you're less afraid of sharing. Torrent (talk) 04:34, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Again with this horsehsit, Irena slammed her back into the wall, which didn't really jolt her as much as she knew it needed to. She was falling asleep.

"Why do you feel like you have to keep your guard up?"

"Because I can't let people die, it's not a feeling"

"But you're not in danger here, can we agree on that?"

Irena's legs shot forward, slamming her back against the wall again. Through teary eyes she squinted at the door. There hadn't been a knock, no short in the barricade. It wasn't the first floor, and she was so tired. But then there was no room to be tired. If it was just her, maybe. But it wasn't, it was her and those kids. Mikey and Braylyn. And her dog, Max, running around in the backyard. But Max wouldn't listen, and the fence fell down and then the neighbor's dogs came running in, and the fence fell down again and Irena's legs shot forward and her finger pointed directly at the door. The barricade was okay. She hadn't fired any rounds.

"Are you going to live the rest of your life on guard? Is this forever?"

"No... I don't know."

Irena shoved the pillow out from under her, "Shit's tough all over"

"Is this forever?"

"It can't be. I know that, I'm not stupid."

"So, why do you think you need to do it?"

Irena pushed herself to the window, one leg as a sled, the other straight back to stay low, out of sight. Below, husks and shadows swayed and lumbered, sparked and crackled, like walking Christmas trees. As much as she blinked, the sparks wouldn't get any dimmer. There was nothing coming, no Santa. If there was one other person who could man the watch. Irena kicked herself back to the wall, slamming into it. If there was one other person who knew what they were doing and didn't just need her help. Then maybe she wouldn't have to do this forever. But Rex still wouldn't listen, he just started up running with the neighbor dogs again.

Torrent (talk) 06:54, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I think your use of narration is lacking. It is true that a guy may be standing somewhere, but there's a huge gap in 'some guy' and 'well, that's the guy' it's shorthand but you have to know why 'The guy' even showed up in the first place.Torrent (talk) 04:12, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

'I'm winning today!' Shouted Ahmed as he threw his shoulder deep into Dewi's chest. Dewi hit the ground and could not catch her breath as Ahmed sprinted past. Normally Dewi would think this was an unfair play, but right now she was just trying to breathe. Inhaling didn't work right, exhaling didn't either. Dewi prayed to God she'd live. Her little brother had become a monster.

Ahmed had scored a goal on his sister. Normally, she would push him down or kick the ball out of his hands. But today, he knew enough to score. He had been kicked in the legs playing the game at school, had the ball kicked in his face. Nothing was off limits. Big score.

'Dewi!'

'That was cheating!'

'You cheat!'

'No I don't! You cheat! I don't hurt you to win!'

'You're only hurt because you're crying!'

As important as this argument was, the sky changed colors over Jakarta and Taiwan}} Torrent (talk) 07:38, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

What fallacy is this called?[edit]

There's the old excuse for doing horrible shit: "If I didn't do it, somebody else would have." I know this is fallacious, but I don't exactly know what fallacy it is. Carthage (talk) 02:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)

That’s the “Fat Guy In Israel” fallacy. 🎄Chef Moosolini’s Ristorante Italiano🎄Ask about our holiday specials! 03:39, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Close to a child's argument that I heard, which is 'nobody told me not to.' The fallacy in that, an action must be limited by explicit rules in order to incur consequences. 'If I didn't do it' is fallacious as an excuse because the consequence should still be the same. Something about 'appeal to consequences' and 'just-world fallacy' I think kinda encompass the 'I just did what we're all thinking of doing' argument, which is diffusion of responsibility. In the end, I don't know. It's always on a scale, 'did I take the last piece of cake?'or 'Did I scam millions of dollars?' But Appeal to Consequence kinda looks right if you squint. Somebody woulda done it, and everybody else gets away with it, so why not me? Diffusion of responsibility and Appeal to Consequence. Torrent (talk) 04:05, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
It's also similar to the selective prosecution defense in law, which in the United States is almost never successful. Bongolian (talk) 05:04, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
To some extent, it could be seen as psychological projection; an inability to visualise that anyone could be more moral/principled/honest than they acted in the situation. It may also be an unconscious attempt to mount a 'reasonable person' defence of their action(s). KarmaPolice (talk) 07:56, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
I think I have seen that described as "appeal to inevitability" or "inevitability fallacy".Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:11, 22 December 2024 (UTC)
Whataboutism, maybe? I've heard that sort of argument before, usually by assholes who act like everyone is as horrible as they are. IntrepidSkeptic (talk) 00:38, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
The two are related, but have slightly different usages. Whataboutism is more about deflection, whereas this fallacy is more of a pre-emptive assertion of reasonability. It doesn't deflect, it acknowledges a wrong was done, and then justifies itself by its claim to inevitability and reasonability. Carthage (talk) 01:19, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

I don’t think the fallacy has a name, but it would be classified as an informal fallacy — possiblly a variation of the appeal to hypocrisy (aka Tu Quoque). I may call it “appeal to preferred culpability” or something. The fallacy of assuming that someone else may do something it justifies oneself doing it. - Only Sort of Dumb (talk) 04:24, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

"No snowflake in an avalanche ever feels responsible." Chillpilled (talk) 04:15, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Chillpilled, I disagree with that on the grounds that 'avalanches' of social action are rare, and generally socially good. The word 'Snowflake' is probably started in mainstream from the movie 'Fight Club' and it is a weird take on freedom of expression. If this is about the bloodlusty support of Luigi Mangione, bloodlust is the problem, sure. But there's a lot of bloodlust in America. Torrent (talk) 05:39, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Biden withdraws plans for student loan forgiveness for over 30 million Americans[edit]

Biden is no longer going to give student loan forgiveness for over 30 million Americans.[12] To be fair, this is most likely not Biden's fault; he's doing this to prevent Trump from messing around with the plans to hurt borrowers. Trump is officially hurting over 30 million people before even taking the oath of office. LongStylus (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

On rumors of a christmas fandom attack[edit]

I have heard rumors of an group of some kind planning to spam gore on social media on the 25th. Could someone confirm or deny this? I have no idea if it is true. Koafox (talk) 16:35, 23 December 2024 (UTC)

Who are they supposed to be and what is their rumored objective?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 16:59, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
Get the Dead Dove responses ready. Anna Livia (talk) 17:02, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
I'm placing my bets that it will be an absolute nothingburger of an event, similar to the yearly pridefall. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 18:29, 23 December 2024 (UTC)
A: 'So, we attack at Christmas Day, yes?'
B: 'Of course. Those woke libruls of RW won't be around to stop us!'
A: 'Ah. They'll have other, better things to do than hang about a wiki?'
B: 'If it can be called 'a wiki'.'
A: 'So... the people doing the attacking... have nothing else better to do on Christmas Day?'
KarmaPolice (talk) 02:23, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Good post! The best Socratic dialogue since Plato. LongStylus (talk) 03:07, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
I think it was tumblr, not a wiki, but then again, it's just a rumor. Sorry if I spread misinformation. Koafox (talk) 18:55, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Wiki, as in RW. I believe right-winger prefer to term us a 'librul circlejerk'. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:21, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Trump - making America grow again![edit]

So I'm reading reports in the Spanish press that Trump has suggested that he wants to either invade or take control of: Mexico, Panama, Canada and Greenland.

I understand that he's a real blowhard and that nothing he says should be taken seriously - but this seems over the top even for that idiot.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 21:24, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

Well, the last two would be doubly 'bad' because they are American allies [well with Greenland it's one step removed because it's a subordinate of Denmark, which is an ally] and doing that would be a level of screwup which I think even the likes of Japan and the United Kingdom would tell America 'fuck you, alliance is off, get your damn troops out of our countries within 30 days'. But correct me if I'm wrong, isn't the power to declare war in the preserve of Congress, not the President?
But I disagree with you; Trump should - and must - be taken 'seriously', just not always literally. That we should assume that if the Orange One says something, he will 'go through with it' [or attempt to] unless he quite literally told no in a manner he understands you are not bullshitting. KarmaPolice (talk) 21:45, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
In these items, methinks Trump is basically "shitposting" (some of this was said at a Turning Point USA event, natch). Trump, at least from what he is saying, isn't wanting to go to war in most cases (except for Mexico), he's wanting to buy territory. Any act of such must both go through Congress and have a willing seller, neither of which will happen. The problem here is that the mainstream media is "feeding the troll" by taking this more seriously than they should.
Personally I see Trump's recent unhinged rants as an attempt to "cover" the embarrassments of last Friday's budget vote, where it seemed like even President Elon Musk had more political capital than him. BobJohnson (talk) 21:53, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
He is not shitposting about Mexico or Panama. Especially Mexico, they've been talking about a war with the cartels for years. The saving grace is likely to be Trump's inability to focus very much, but if his inner circle wants this to happen then it may. Chillpilled (talk) 21:59, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Most US military attempts to control drug cartels in the Americas have failed, I wouldn't expect anything better here should something happen along these lines. I do think any such action might make the "immigration crisis" (that the rube class of Trump voters care so much about) worse, though it is doubtful said class will actually figure out such correlation if it happens. BobJohnson (talk) 22:06, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
It's not going to happen because Congress would veto it, Mexico/Panama are not going to 'agree' to it and the Orange One will be told this beforehand. However, there's the worry; that v2.0 doesn't seem to have the 'grownups in the room' anymore - I mean the likes of Bolton etc are cunts, but at least they at least knew how shit worked!
Even more depressingly, I suspect nothing will come of this because either a) the incoming Administration is so chaotic nothing happens or b) the 'dissent level' inside the country will be sufficiently high that it hogs the bandwidth. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:56, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
They (Mexico/Panama) don't need to agree to the invasion for the invasion to happen. A somebody. (talk) 23:14, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
Firstly, how the fuck can you 'agree' to an invasion? Re-read above. Congress would have to agree with Orange One on war, and I simply don't see that happening. They could get around that if the countries concerned 'invited' American forces in [if for example, said forces were going to be deployed against Mexican cartels] but I don't see them agreeing to that either. KarmaPolice (talk) 23:26, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────It is not strictly true that Congress would have to authorize or could 'veto' a Trumpist invasion of a country. The War Powers Act of 1973Wikipedia (passed into law over Nixon's veto) allows the President to engage in any sorts of military adventurism he chooses, but is theoretically limited to 90-days adventurism before gaining Congressional approval. The GOP nutters in Congress could be so worshipful of the Orange Anus that they authorize it, or that Prezbutt decides to just ignore Congress, thereby staging a Constitutional crisis. Congress does not have the power of veto, that's only the President. Congress has the power of the purse and could theoretically deprive the military of funds, which would give both Putin and Xi big orgasmos. Bongolian (talk) 23:46, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

In this utterly fucked-up scenario, it wouldn't matter because Putin and Xi have already blown inside their underpants because American diplomacy is in utter ruins, NATO might break apart, the amount of 'internal resistance' will be huge, the economy will take a hit and Mexico 'won't go quietly'. Yes, the MAGA-cult is strong but I think in this case, there will be enough 'less nuts' Republicans who'd decide to jump ship. In fact, I think a lot of the non-MAGA support would vanish overnight, leaving the Orange One very cold indeed. KarmaPolice (talk) 01:43, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Note that I haven't actually heard anything like "Trump wants to invade Mexico" though, at least in the complete country takeover form this implies. What I have heard is two concepts that were floated in Trump 1.0 but ultimately failed to be enacted: A) designating drug cartels as terrorist operations, and B) doing some sort of special operations mission against drug cartels, whether Mexico authorizes it or not. Option (B) I think would require Congress authorization and with such a narrow majority I don't see it happening unless Mexico is completely onboard (and even then, the Freedom Caucus probably will throw a fit because such would cost money or something), or Trump decides to push his luck with the "90 day exception" on his own (risky because a botched "special operation" would cause damage to Trump's already neutered political capital right off the bat, and the US's relationship with Mexico would also be heavily damaged to if he fails to work with them). Trump probably could do option (A) via Marco Rubio who will be in charge of the terrorist list, however, it seems like most geopolitical experts think this is not a good idea at all. So I am not sure how Rubio will react. BobJohnson (talk) 05:36, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Designating cartels as terrorist groups is horrific from a civil liberties perspective, as now, it runs the risk of even people who get caught possessing or selling, for example, marijuana getting charged with "material support of foreign terrorist organizations." And looking at the history of the drug war in the US, like how the drug war was pushed by Nixon to crackdown on the counter-culture and anti-war movements, there is precedent for punitive drug penalties being used as an excuse to go after today's dissident movements. Carthage (talk) 05:58, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
Each of the cases above is somewhat different though.
Canada - absurd. He's just trolling.
Greenland - he raised the idea of buying it in the first term. I didn't happen then and won't now.
Panama - threatening them might be a negotiating ploy to get better terms for US shipping.
Mexico - I don't seem him invoking a full scale invasion of Mexico. Perhaps some limited military action to look tough.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 06:55, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
This sounds like a 'madman in power' strategy. It adds up, if JD Vance is quoting Nixon tapes. The weird thing is it's a little outside of the Overton Window to want to go to expand, since the US is arguing about whether we should involve ourselves beyond our borders as.openly as closing its borders. It's a dead strategy for the US leadership to threaten border expansion. Okay, tough guy, we all like Mexico and Canada. So the 'madman with the nukes' who wants to show power by claiming territory just... Doesn't work for the US in the same way as it works for Eastern Europe, the middle east, and coastal Asian islands. Torrent (talk) 07:50, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
I think there might be a chance that the Panama issue is Trump LARP’ing/reliving his imagined 1980s glory days again, because the US negotiating the treaty on the Panama Canal itself in 1977 and finally giving up its quasi colony in the Panama Canal Zone in 1979 made this a cause célèbre on the US right back then.
Perhaps DT has come across 'Why can't I own a Canadian?' and misunderstood. Anna Livia (talk) 11:27, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Thus, Trump may be refighting that particular battle and pretending to “set history right” (in more than one sense…) as a sign to other ageing right wing Boomers and those of the Silent Generation still able to remember this, that, had he been in charge (and not wusses like Carter or even Saint Reagan), the Good Old US of A would never had been pushed out of “its” Canal in the first place. ScepticWombat (talk) 08:01, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
One thing I still do not doubt about the 2016 election is that Russia was involved. I don't think Russia ever really cared, but spreading the idea that US Democracy was compromised was the goal. I still do not completely believe Russia has nothing to do with right wing politics in the US. I'm not McCarthy, but I really think Russia spent as much time working on uS style information operations as Korea spent on copying JPop. Torrent (talk) 08:15, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
I think you're all overthinking this. My money is that Trump has a pretty rudimentary big/small, eat/eaten social darwinist POV [so 80s, man!]. In that America is 'big' and those others 'small', so 'it's natural' that they should ultimately bend to his will. Just like he thinks 'it's right' that he fucks over 'little' contractors when developing real estate so he has bigger profits, he thinks it's right he should bully 'little' Panama to do what he says and 'behave better' [aka drop prices for American shipping, perhaps give back the old military bases]. Why does he give a fuck? Somebody somewhere [perhaps on Truth Social] told him that 'them Chinese' want a base there or something is my suspicion.
While I agree Canada 'seems absurd' but why don't you go back to 2014, tell folks then the current situation and watch them say 'that's absurd, will never happen'. Come Jan 21, who are the grownups in the room to tell the Orange One he's being thick? His [proposed] cabinet are a bunch of weirdos who have been explicitly picked to not tell The Boss no and all the signs are that he's going to try to 'square the pitch' by putting toady-cronies in key positions in the military, LEOs and intelligence.
Nixon's 'madman strategy' was based on the idea that if you push him too far he might flip and 'do something drastic' before Kissinger etc could get to him and 'calm him down'. Trump is now seemingly following the 'throw random crap at wall and see what sticks strategy', but now he doesn't seem to have any fucking filter anymore and there's no Kissinger either. KarmaPolice (talk) 08:45, 25 December 2024 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────Regarding Panama, it could actually be saber rattling directed at China, which operates the port on each side of the canal but does not have direct influence on the canal's operation.[13] or it could just be shitposting because he knows jackshit about Panama ("Trump inaccurately said that China 'controls' and runs the Panama Canal.") and someone whispered into his ear.[14]

You tell me some serious topic he does know jack about. Anyway from a British POV [another example of 'our Greece to the Americans Rome', because we've been through this crap before, though the boogyman then was the Soviets] would be the best way to 'secure' the Canal would be to make nice with Panama, 'seduce' them into your orbit and perhaps [if you're really that worried] to stuff their mouths with gold to get them to close the canal to 'enemy shipping' if war did break out. KarmaPolice (talk) 22:32, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
its very much racketeering style sabre rattling. 'nice canal you got here - be a shame if something happened to it' AMassiveGay (talk) 21:14, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

My Antifa Lover: A Riot of the Heart: Steamy Romance Against Fascism[edit]

This is an actual fucking thing. For those who don't want to click on the link, here's the book's description:

A young congresswoman falls in love with a daring masked protestor in Seattle, Washington. After encountering him at a non-violent burning down of a federal building she can't tell what is hotter, the fire or her feelings developing for him.

The cover-art for the book is great too. It has a guy donning an Atomwaffen-style skull mask, wearing militia gear, with a keffiyeh around his neck for some reason, and in his arms are what's probably supposed to be a gun but just looks like a club, and next to that is a stock photo of a conventionally attractive woman. Carthage (talk) 05:15, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

No stranger author than this one, Jessica Stranger. I have seen better copypasta book cover art, and also worse (https://www.amazon.com/Bruce-Lee-Man-Only-Knew/dp/0446894079). "Non-violent burning down of a federal building" is an oxymoron: arson has the high potential for unintended consequences (unexpected building occupants, fire spreading to other buildings, injury or death to firefighters) — that's why it's a serious crime. Bongolian (talk) 05:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Her name is very fitting. Carthage (talk) 06:15, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Wouldn't a simple 'ordinary fire' count as this, technically? I mean, for example faulty fusing or a malfunctioning appliance? KarmaPolice (talk) 06:30, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
I dunno, I assumed "non-violent" implied someone started it, rather than an accident. Bongolian (talk) 06:33, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Yeah, it's unlikely our stupid congresswoman would consider someone 'daring' by simply walking along a pavement and encountering a burning building [this has happened to me; I wasn't that daring]. KarmaPolice (talk) 06:39, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
I know little about romance novels but isn't this their absolutely generic plot? Two people from totally different backgrounds are initially at total odds before falling for each other and getting down mutual body rubbing?Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 08:04, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
The author specializes in MAGA romance novels. Carthage (talk) 08:07, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
That's one hell of a niche genre!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 10:08, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Oh, it's the 'non-violent' riot/coup crowd. Bongolian (talk) 17:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Somewhat to my surprise the genre actually does exist, though it seems to about as lacking in literary merit as it is in common sense.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 17:54, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
Does it pay well? KarmaPolice (talk) 08:12, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
About the book itself: the title and description is apparently false advertising, according to reviews on Goodreads and Amazon. Antifa, as either the right-wing boogeyman or the actual thing, doesn't show up anywhere in the book. The protesters are, according to one review on Goodreads, actually MRAs. The author also confuses Washington, DC with Washington the state, as the "Congress House" in the book is in Washington the state. It's apparently not even so bad it's good: it's just bad. That's one thing most reviewers can agree on, it looks like. Carthage (talk) 09:37, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
I kind of think that this snippet from one review says a lot in the area of fair warning--

It took me all of 2 pages to realize that I couldn’t do this sober. I took a drink every time the female lead “shrugged” or “furrowed” something or the male lead “smirked devilishly” and ended up so drunk that I cried about otters for 40 minutes.

Kencolt (talk) 11:06, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't understand. How can otters make you cry? KarmaPolice (talk) 11:55, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
You've never seen people cry at cute things before? Plus, they were drunk. Carthage (talk) 12:22, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
If I'm going to read a shitpost disguised as erotica, I'd rather read a Chuck TingleWikipedia thingy. :) BobJohnson (talk) 17:15, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
it's a clever satire, I am going to explain the joke you humorless autists. The setup is, drink every time a trope is done, drinking too much causes wild emotionality, which means the next thing you watch is an absurd thing to cry over, videos of otters. Which I have also watched and I do enjoy, are you on the otter and orangutan cohabitation bus? https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MyM8q689Iyk Torrent (talk) 06:03, 29 December 2024 (UTC)

thereligionofpeace.com[edit]

I came across this site while researching an unsourced claim I saw someone make on Bluesky (Which is sadly devolving into Dorsey-Era Twitter Levels of Toxicity) about how Religion has killed 90 million people; I did find an r/atheism thread talking about it (Though the number was different), but it doesn't cite its sources, apart from a series of other r/atheism threads that cite this site as their source.

This cite seems untrustworthy to me; It has a series of yearly articles that claim to be a tally of the number of Islamic attacks and the deaths they caused, though it does not cite its sources for these articles, despite citing its sources for recent attacks; However, I don't trust the sources it uses either; After plugging the names of some of them in Media Bias/Fact Check, I found that they tend to be around 'Mixed' in terms of reliability; To add insult to injury, the sources it uses are both Pro-Israel, spreading the Pro-Palestine = Pro-Hamas narrative, and some appear to be spreading some Eurabia-esque bullshit. Thoughts on this? TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 19:48, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

A link showing how they made the calculation would be useful. Also over what time period? You would get a much bigger number if you started off pre-Roman (Though populations would have been lower too.) And how do they define "killed" - actively or passively? If people avoid blood transfusions or vaccinations for religious reasons how would you count that? Also, it is often very difficult to separate religion and politics. How would you split the people in Northern Ireland based on political motivations or religious ones? You could ask the same thing about the crusades and almost any apparently religious war.
There are so many confounding factors that any answer would be little more than a guess. Also - everybody dies of something, sometimes various things.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:07, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
Wait! The link is thread title! I'll look at it later. But Ill leave up what I posted!Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 20:11, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
One problem with generalizations like this is (as BobM noted) that religion is often intertwined with other causes of wars -- sectarianism, territorial disputes, and power struggles. At the moment, you will find most "Islam attacks" are taking place within very unstable countries, particularly in Africa and the Middle East. Stuff like Boko Haram, the Mali War,Wikipedia and the Somali Civil WarWikipedia, or ongoing unrest in Syria, Sudan, and Nigeria. The thing is, in many cases, the "other side" doesn't exactly smell of roses, often being as brutally authoritarian as the "terrorists". Why point the finger at Islam specifically for this sort of thing apart from the usual reasons? There's much more to the story, it's not all "wah Islam bad".
I certainly can believe a "90 million" body count for religious influenced wars and actually think that, were one to count any conflict where religion is a factor, the count might be much higher. The Taiping Rebellion alone may actually surpass that number if the high end of estimates are right. However, there's much more to that conflict than Hong Xiuquan's Christian Messiah complex. And I think you will find that for any other war where religion is a factor. BobJohnson (talk) 20:20, 26 December 2024 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────"Which is sadly devolving into Dorsey-Era Twitter Levels of Toxicity" shoot! well, that didn't take long. i haven't even created an account with them yet. smh The G (talk) 03:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

This thread really asks two questions:
1. What is our opinion of the site The Religion of Peace. The site focuses entirely on Islam.
2. Has religion in general been responsible for the (untimely) deaths of 90 million people. (uncited)
The website in question criticizes Islam strongly while supporting the rights of individual Muslims. I would need to read more of it to form an opinion.
I agree with the previous Bob that, in an historical context, a lot more than 90 million deaths could probably be placed at religion's door, but I would feel that any calculation would have error bars so big that it would be meaningless.Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 07:53, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Religion of Peace.com makes disclaimers that they do not condone acts of bigotry against Muslims, but they also traffic in Islamophobic narratives:

The world we share is at a critical moment. After fending off Muslim conquest for 1400 years, Western borders are being thrown open to an irreversible flow of migration from the Islamic world. At the same time, important questions about Islam are being stigmatized and deliberately mischaracterized as "bigotry." [...] But, tolerance doesn't mean denying truth. Our culture has benefited greatly from the freedom to criticize dogma. Holding Islam to a different standard not only puts hard-fought social progress at risk, but it denies an Age of Enlightenment to those most desperately in need of it. The mere fact that Islam requires special protection from scrutiny proves how necessary that scrutiny is.

The main purpose of this site is to challenge the assumption that all religion is the same, which is easily belied by common sense. Over 99% of religiously-motivated terror is committed explicitly in the name of one faith. How can that be if it is just like all the others?

How is that we so often hear of converts to Islam turning to terror, but never the same with converts from Islam? Why are only ex-Muslims killed by members of their former faith? If 'ignorance of Islam' is the culprit, then why don't other religions have this problem, and why are there so many Islamic clerics, imams and preachers actively involved in terror cells and recruitment across the globe?

Acts of discrimination, hate and terror that would be shocking in the name of any other faith are so commonplace in the Muslim world that it barely registers in Western media. The very fact that the bar of expectation is set so low for "the Religion of Peace" underscores just how different it really is.

You get the "Islam is an existential threat to Western civilization" meme. You get the "Islam is uniquely violent as a religion" meme. You get the comparison of migrants ironically often fleeing Islamist persecution (as most victims of groups like DAESH and whatnot are other Muslims) being compared to the Muslim conquerors of old. They take pains to point out that "the mere fact that Islam requires special protection from scrutiny proves how necessary that scrutiny is," but I would also argue that the fact they also take pains to point out that "we do not condone bigotry against individual Muslims" maybe means their own words warrant the same scrutiny.

"If 'ignorance of Islam' is the culprit, then why don't other religions have this problem, and why are there so many Islamic clerics, imams and preachers actively involved in terror cells and recruitment across the globe?"

You could ironically ask the same thing about Christian preachers advocating for stoning queer people to death, or burning Qur'ans in public.

TheReligionofPeace.com (TROP) is a pluralistic, non-partisan site concerned with Islam's political and religious teachings according to its own texts. The purpose is to counter whitewashing and explain the threat that Islam truly poses to human dignity and freedom, as well as the violence and dysfunction that ensues as a direct consequence of this religion's supremacist ideology.

Islam is not defined by anyone's opinion, but by the Quran, Hadith and Sira. These historical texts are readily available in the information age, meaning that anyone can go straight to the source from any referenced article on this site.

The same could be said for other religions, like, again, Christianity. Christians also pick and choose from their holy texts, but this website is exhibiting a double standard here. This webshite also treats Islam as a monolith, which to anyone with even the most surface-level knowledge of the Muslim world knows it most definitely is not.

I think it's safe to say this webshite is concern trolling. Carthage (talk) 15:09, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for the analysis. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 20:01, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I do wonder, though; Has anyone actually done a study about violent attacks done in the name of a religion, categorized by the religion it was done for? Because knowing this type of person, even if there has been such a study, they're not basing their claims on it, and likely goes directly against what they say. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 21:19, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
I would suspect that "Islam terrorism" would be by far the top category, and the Wiki list of designated terrorist groupsWikipedia suggest as much. I do not find any documentation of exactly how many in a quick Google search. It probably could be created by skimming Wiki pages, but I don't feel like doing so. :)
Such at any rate says less than websites who want to denigrate Islam think due to the nature of the "terrorism" category. First, state sponsored violence against citizens, even states with strong official religions that have plenty of religious motivated violence, would not count as terrorism. Second, some terrorism wouldn't count as religious terrorism even though religion plays a significant "adjacent" role. For instance, very little right-wing reactionary terrorism in the West tends to focus on religion as a primary motive, so it is not considered religious terrorism. But the "traditional values" of (usually) Christian nationalism play a significant role in the ecosystem of Western right-wing reactionaries. Lastly, as I mentioned before, any raw terrorism count by single motives would fail to account for state / region instability as well as other secondary motives. Boko Haram are an Islamic terrorist organization in one view, but they are also an insurgency / rebellion wanting to overthrow the Nigerian government in another. Of course insurgencies are going to be violent and brutal. I'm not sure what organizations are doing to separate "insurgent violence" and "terrorism" and I suspect that there is some conflation for propaganda purposes. BobJohnson (talk) 22:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)
As I said before - you would need to decide on your start date and you would also need to decide on your definition of "violent attacks". If you include deaths brought about by violent actions and just consider Christianity you would need to count (among others) the The Spanish Reconquest, the Crusades in the Holy Land, the Albigensian Crusade, The Inquisition, multiple witch trials, the origin of the slave trade, the Ku Klux Klan and the Lord's Resistance Army. But again - unraveling the complex mixture of religion, politics, and nationalism in order to decide how much of the blame lay with Christianity in each case would be next to impossible. Bob"Life is short and (insert adjective)" 09:26, 28 December 2024 (UTC)

@Bob M I wasn't asking about the death toll thing, I was just mentioning it for context's sake; I'll look into it on my own time later. TheOneAndOnlyCirrusMan (talk) 19:58, 27 December 2024 (UTC)

As athiest who actively celebrates Christmas[edit]

I'm not an angry atheist. I think believing in God is as natural as believing in ghosts. As I participate in Christmas, I have been meaning to also participate in Ramadan. Not the whack ass version that says you can't even drink water, but sun up to sun down. I keep hearing on public radio that climate change is threatening the Christmas tree business in the northwest, I live where conifers don't really grow, my family has a plastic and wire tree from the 90's, and a little wooden ornament called a Swedish Christmas tree, made out of painted wood. I'm really sorry if global warming is harming the Christmas tree business, but ultimately, that's not the harm. You're telling me Global warming is going to harm Christmas tree farms, and that's your economic 'hard pill to swallow' Get your shit together.Torrent (talk) 05:04, 24 December 2024 (UTC)

I don't think anyone is arguing that climate changes biggest impact is harming the Christmas tree business. I think it is just another tally on the long list of problems it has caused. MirrorIrorriM (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2024 (UTC)`
I personally suspect that the ever-shrinking average property [and more alarmingly, the square metreage per person] of homes is having more of an effect on Christmas trees in the UK than global warming. In fact, the amount of folks who 'don't do a tree' because they have cats/dogs which decide it's a great new toy/toilet and they simply don't have the space to 'keep them away from it' might be a second. But 'Christmas traditions' come and go; perhaps [at least here] the tradition of a 'real tree' in the house has had it's day [a '22 poll showed 60% fake, 15% real and 25% none] - I've not personally had said real tree since I was a kid back in the '90s. KarmaPolice (talk) 19:20, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
For most of my life only older people had a Christmas tree and caring about having one was seen as part of them being old, kind of like having a landline. Most parents thought it was represented an annoying amount of effort for for something only a little kid would really appreciate. My family didn't have any because we were either pretending to be Christian or belonged one the "Christmas ISHTAR SEMIRAMIS PAGAN SATAN LIGHT EVERY MALL SANTA ON FIRE" denominations. Honestly, the decline of getting a real Christmas tree started, like, 40 years ago.-Flandres (talk) 22:40, 24 December 2024 (UTC)
i have a bluey advent calendar. dont do xmas on christmas so its not counting down anything. i just like getting a bit of cheap chocolate when i open the window for each day. its my only christmas tradition and its costs a pound from iceland. got some cheap crackers too. dont like the jokes/hat part, dont care for the crappy toy. i just enjoy the little bang you get when you open them and the surprise of finding out what specific cheap crappy toy you dp get. for a brief moment i am rapt with wonder as i discover a plastic paperclip or a shit puzzle made of a spring and elastic band. if one is really blessed you have won a tiny pack of cards to unbox, shuffle once, and deposit in a drawer full of other accumulated crap or just throw in a bin. and no the miniature screw driver set wont ever come in handy not even for tightening your specs. its the thrill of discovery, even when you know you will only ever discover the most useless and uninspired and pointless tat thats the been the same old shit you get every year whether you got your crackers from the pound shop or you splashed on a pack from waitrose, only difference being the tiny comb from one is made from plastic while other shiny metal. the nail clippers in any pack kinda work but ive never used nail clippers, so into the drawer of crap it goes. i like kinder eggs for the same reason but they much more fun and i can appreciate there is more creativity in what they put into those. unless its just a little ready made statue. they suck balls, you dont even need to put stickers on em. id expect that from a cracker but if i wanted something good or useful or worth having, i wouldnt be buying a kinder egg. get your shit together kinder AMassiveGay (talk) 13:24, 25 December 2024 (UTC)
First, that was hilarious. Second Bluey is a reasonable hit. My mom set herself to get me a slow cooker or insta-pot for Christmas because I burned myself kinda pretty bad. She said she couldn't find one, so she was gonna pay me in cash to buy my own. Halfway through the holiday, she snuck up to me and said 'hey, here's your pot' and handed me an envelope of money. I said 'Mom, you can't just hand me an unmarked envelope and say 'here's your pot' and she lost it, laughed as much as I seen ever. But she knew it was a joke, I knew it was a joke, I played it like I didn't. She tried to tell the joke to my dad and he got very stern, I haven't smoked marijuana in about 15 years, my mom said 40 and nudged him, no dice. 15 years ago it was getting too strong for me, I can't imagine what it would do my parents today. It made my mom laugh, my mom got my niece and nephew some Bluey shit. I think Bluey is better than Paw Patrol, you've got the right advent calendar. Torrent (talk) 09:19, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
my crackers turned out to absolute dogshit even by the low standard of crackers. they promised a 'gift' in each one but i maintain that a card board santa acting as a piece for what is described as a 'game' - an overly generous description i say - is not sic gifts, but one particularly shit gift. six crackers with the exact same 'gift' in each one. what is galling is that, by my standards, these were quite ritzy crackers. i couldnt find any cheaper ones so i grudgingly ponied up 6 pound discounted from a tenner. the bar was set so low as to be non existent but they still failed to clear it. the shitters that made these things make baby jesus cry and they deserve to be on some kind of government naughty list along with anyone gifting their nearest and dearest novelty xmas socks or did all their christmas shopping at petrol station on xmas eve. like my older brother. the prick. AMassiveGay (talk) 21:31, 26 December 2024 (UTC)
I did all of my shopping on Amazon this year. My only presents were for my Niece and Nephew, got a disastrous delivery estimate for one gift. I balanced and bought something else, now have one gift tucked away at the parents' for a birthday, it wasn't supposed to arrive before the 28th so I had to go another direction, but it did arrive and as stingy as it sounds it still works. I also have an older brother, and for years our gift to each other was stupid agreed monetary values. Finally, we came to the conclusion that the best gift between each other was 'let's not worry about it'. I kinda had to be the first to say it so I'm one up there, but it was a relief. No gift for me, no gift for him, the rest of the family stress.enough. Then families started to do that white elephant BS and 90% of the gifts were gift cards. So, if it's a $15 limit because that's what you know somebody you're asking to participate can afford, I'll always put a ten dollar bill and a five dollar bill in my goofy gift package that might go to anyone. cut your brother some slack. Gift giving is actually tough, especially if you care about somebody. Torrent (talk) 07:31, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
sure buying gifts is hard. especially when as in my family you not particularly close. especially as in my case, im limited by money. my gifts dont always land, but i at least make an effort. if im unsure of persons exact tastes, i can least get something that i think anyone would find at least a little bit interesting or fun. i got everyone pop up books year. they are fun. i like them. they are little feats of engineering. importantly i try to give better gifts than my brothers. my younger brother gives hipster gift sets - shaving kits, fancy jams etc. they are good and all, expensive even. a little dull bit fine. mine are more interesting so i win.
i have never gotten anything from the older brother that wasnt objectively garbage on every level. its like he went blindfolded into a pound store and rummaged through the discount bin. never anything good or anything hes thought about. sometimes a dvd hed finished with and hes just wrapped that. its iust something gift wrapped he can hand to me at xmas. i say thanks this will come in handy. an obvious lie as is the rule with shit. but he doesnt care. hes given handed me a gift at christmas. thats his obligations forfilled. he will openly criticise what he got from me though. yes brother it is a thing of beauty and ingenious design, detailed cities and landscapes rising out of its pages, but you are right pop up books are for kids, what was i thinking. i dont think he even opened the thing. he got me that year a fucking ugly mishapen beanie at with built in fm radio.
he was in thailand this year so didnt have to get him anything and didnt have to have to chuck out his gift wrapped trash he probably found in a skip. the fucking prick. AMassiveGay (talk) 15:49, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
I object on principle of the gifting of 'random crap' and also fall into the usual adult problem of 'all the stuff I can afford you already have, while the stuff you want I can't'. So I spy out something they appear to use on a semi-regular basis and basically ask if that can become 'the thing Karma buys you'. One, for example uses an old-school diary/planner for everything so a nice day/page one is 'my thing' now while another gets a nice bottle of whiskey. Has ended my decision fatigue and overthinking about another thing. KarmaPolice (talk) 16:29, 28 December 2024 (UTC)
Years ago, I got my dad a wildlife camera for his backyard, because they had a tree line that every time I stayed at had coyotes, raccoons, and once a deer. He stopped using it and the neighbors cut down the tree line and now there's an argument about whether owls land, which could be solved by using my trail camera, but my dad bought my mom some binoculars. My mom does not go adventuring, she is close to the last person I'd take on a backwoods hike, she is a cosmopolitan girl at heart. A pair of binoculars is a quiet nod to seeing owls, but also goofy 'don't know how to give gifts' baloney. I didn't buy my mom a gift this year, but she knows if she needs me to do something for her, I am on call. Same with my brother. He broke his leg, I mowed his lawn. He's a bit of an occupied dick, but I think my family puts more importance on showing up than the substance of the gift. Being said, I bailed on out of town Christmas this year because my cousin has 5 kids, 4 of which are boys and they are generally monsters that occupy every moment of attention, and my cousin And her husband and my brother and his wife use these moments of deferred responsibility, as important to them as they may be, to ignore their kids. if I have to see my cousin's kids it's not on my terms, they are always feeding off each other as chaos goblins, which is normally fine, but only a couple can be trusted alone, and they literally kick the others to play alone, who literally in turn kick the babies when no one is looking. They don't know me, I don't know them, I don't have any method of interrupting or punishing, and they don't respect adult authority as is. But because I don't have kids and I have worked in daycare, it's expected of me in the broader family to just deal with the kids. So I didn't visit the bigger broader family this year. It was a choice. Torrent (talk) 06:22, 30 December 2024 (UTC)